Get answers to your questions about marriage, parenting and family life from experts and parents of 7 children!

Rachel Denning (00:01.358)
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life Podcasts where we are trying to give you the tools, the training, the resources, some inspiration, some laughs, and some good things to help you live an extraordinary life because you guys, ordinary is just... Boring? Boring and blah. Who wants to be ordinary? What could be worse than an ordinary life? To me, that ordinary is like...

That's another word for mediocre and mediocre is a word that drives me to be extraordinary. So let's choose to live extraordinary lives. Today, my friends, we, yes, Rachel's here again. We're going to talk about money and marriage because those are the top two things and have been for decades, the top two things that couples struggle with and they're tough, right?

Well, no, not top two things. Oh, money's the top. One of the top two, sex is the other one. So one of the top two things people struggle with in marriage. Right. So money's not the top two. So money's number one and money's number two. No, but sex and marriage or sex and money are the top two struggles in marriage and things people fight about. They, you know, in surveys and things like that, people say, yeah, we fight about that all the time. And I'm sure you've had some.

struggles with it. And we received a specific question about this that asked some really great questions, hard questions. And so we are going to answer these questions and discuss this topic. And try to just share, we'll share what works for us. Every, every couple is going to have to find the thing that works for them. So we got to start that way. Like you're going to have to figure this out and it's going to be unique for your marriage. But

Dad gum it, don't just tolerate an unhealthy relationship with money inside of your marriage. Don't just tolerate things that aren't working. And if there are issues around this, maybe some of these issues we're gonna bring up today, that's a sign that things are not working for you with your money in your marriage. And you should make some changes. And what's exciting is you can. So like that is the number one thing I wanna share right now is like, you got this.

Rachel Denning (02:27.47)
You can totally do this. You can make transformations. We've seen it happen. Even if it's been chronic for you and your spouse and it's just, yeah. Problems like, Oh, it's been going, it's always been like that. He's always been like that. She's always been like this. You can make some changes. We're going to try to give you some tools today. So I think the first place we need to start is that it always starts with you as the individual. And what's interesting,

with money is money is one of those things that we have a relationship with. And maybe you thought about this before. Well, we have relationships, we've talked about this before, we have relationships with food, we have relationships with money, we have relationships with, you know, lots of different aspects of our life. And that sounds weird. Expand on that. Well, because, yeah, you're like, it's an inanimate object. What do you mean, a relationship with it? Or sometimes it's an abstraction. Right. But...

we all grow up with and then acquire through experiences or things you've heard or been told, we get a relationship with money. And so you are in a relationship with money. And then as a couple, you kind of join together and have a relationship with money as a family. And so you have to first examine your personal relationship with money. What does money mean to you? And I think, I mean, for me, I had to go through a total transformation with money.

because I had, it was so charged, it was so emotional, so intense. I'm sure some of you listening can relate to this, like whenever you think about money, it might make you sick to your stomach. Or you might like feel mean about it or scarce about it or angry about it. It might just trigger you. Well, so first I'm gonna say, cause one of the questions, this was a question that was a lot of questions in email, and it says, what are some,

good basic beliefs about money and marriage and I think what Greg is talking about is where it starts. Like not just basic beliefs about money and marriage but about your relationship with money in general. Like what are the good basic beliefs about money? And as Greg said, I mean he's had to go through a transformation with this. I've had to do the same. I remember when I was in my teens, a young adult,

Rachel Denning (04:50.958)
and I got a flat tire in my car and I literally was so angry and upset about it. Not because I got a flat tire, but because I knew it would cost money to fix it. And I literally remember standing there in the dark crying saying, I hate money. Okay, that's not a good healthy belief about money. Because money is a tool. So Greg and I have gone on this journey individually, but as a couple.

We brought our little money issues into our marriage, you guys. I had an experience the other day, I remembered something that had happened because it stood out. I remember one time when we were newly married and money was so tight, we had lost the $10 bill and I was physically sick and upset like, cause we'd lost 10 bucks. 10 bucks, you guys. And I'm sure some of you can relate to that. Like you maybe have been in a tight spot before. And some of you probably don't relate. You -

may have grown up with great mindsets around money because of your parents or different things and that's awesome. So kudos for you. Yeah kudos for you. That's awesome. But for those of us who struggle with that, this is something that directly impacts your marriage. Now it could be in your marriage, one of you has a great mindset about money and the other has a scarcity mindset about money and hates it.

stresses about it and worries about losing the $10 bill. That obviously is going to cause problems in your marriage. Other conditions might be just habit. Maybe you have a decent mindset, both of you, but one of you or both of you have poor spending habits or investing habits or budgeting habits. It might just be tools or strategies, something you've got to kind of get dialed in so that you have this working agreement and system.

You guys know how much we love systems, but you have this working system that helps you do it. Now, before we dive in here, I want to make this clear. This doesn't have to do so much with the amount of money you have. We know people who are extremely wealthy, millions and millions and millions of dollars in their bank account and still have scarcity mindsets around money. Still have a negative. Still worry about it, still fight about it, still. Yeah, it's still an issue.

Rachel Denning (07:17.453)
And so some people think like, well, the only reason I have this issue is because we have so little. Well, on the other side of that coin, because we've traveled so much, we also know people who have very little in the amounts of money and material things they have and yet have an abundant, generous, healthy mindset about money. So it's not the amount of money in your bank that ultimately makes a difference.

It's how you think about money and the amount you have in your bank that makes a difference. So first of all, the first step to improving your relationship with money is to make lots of it, lots and lots of money. No, that's not the first step. That can be a step. That's fine. The first step is to change your mindset and your relationship with money as an individual.

So get books about it. Get books about abundance and money and metaphysics if you want, right? Because we could get metaphysical about it. But study and learn about it individually and then have those conversations with your spouse. But I love what Rachel's saying here. It has to start with you. So if you have money issues or you want to change the money relationship for yourself and in your marriage, start with you. Start studying, devouring it.

learn to get a really healthy mindset and framework around money. And start with you, educate yourself. It's like, Rachel, I say this with everything. Anything that has to be a part of your life, make sure you educate yourself on that thing. And like it or not, money is a part of our world. And we're operating with currencies and money. It's just the way things operate in the economy. Right, like it or not, but I say you should learn to like it. Yep. Because it is...

I don't want to say a necessary evil because I don't think money is evil. But it is a necessary thing in this world so you should learn to like it. One of the things that changed my mindset about it was when I learned that money is neutral. It's just neutral. It's neither good nor bad. It just is. And it's like a tool. It's like a hammer. You can use a hammer for building things or you can use a hammer for destroying things. So it's how you view money.

Rachel Denning (09:44.077)
personally and how you use it that determines whether it's good or bad, not the tool itself. Okay, so another question involved with this was, well, what if one of the spouses is the main provider and the other one stays home and, you know, homeschools the kids or takes care of the kids? And so the person who's earning the money feels like they're responsible, they're in charge of it, and they get to decide.

how the money is spent. It almost is this kind of twisted sense of control. And if that were the case, I'm going to jump in here as the kind of as the man side. Let's say in, in this was true for us for a long time, especially when we had lots of littles and Rachel was, she had more than she had a 24 hour job. It wasn't full time, it was 24 hours. So she had a 24 hour job raising the kids. And I went to work to

pay for the kids. But let's flip this. If I were to stop as a good husband, if I were to stop and say, and just kind of flip the role for a second, it might seem to her in some instances that she is kind of, she feels a little bit helpless because she is not earning money on her own. She's not bringing in. So she has this dependence and it would be so messed up for me.

to limit her in that because she's choosing to be busy with our home and our family and our children. Think about that. Flip that on a side. How messed up would that be as the husband to be like, look, I earn the money, it's mine. I do all the work. Yeah, I go to work, woman. But think, she's choosing in this family dynamic, she's choosing to not bring in money, so I have to go out of my way to make sure she has the money she wants and needs.

Well, to take this idea even further, it's not that one person's working and the other person's not working. We're both working. We're both doing work that brings value to the family unit and to the home. Now, unfortunately, because we still live in this society, one of those types of work brings in money, but the other doesn't. But I think it's very helpful.

Rachel Denning (12:10.381)
I think this is helpful just for a woman's own sense of worth and contribution, whatever. It's a good exercise to go through if this is something you struggle with. Sit down and write out all the things you do and all the work you do and then do some research on the cost of hiring that out. Now that's something you could take to your husband too and be like, hey, if you were to hire someone to cook for you,

and to clean up your house and to take care of your children, you know, say whatever. I'm dead, we get divorced. You now have to hire someone to do these things because you can't work and do them as well. This is how much it would cost you. Where is this going? You're like, hey, hey buddy, pay up. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Pay up. Look how expensive I am.

But sometimes that needs to be said. I totally agree. And we're going to get into this. Like sometimes in a marriage these things need to be said. So if it's at that point in your marriage and life where your value is not being appreciated sufficiently and it doesn't have a monetary value, add a monetary value to it. Yes, because it has it in a way. It does have a monetary value. If you were to hire someone to do the work you do in the house, because if you're not doing it...

someone else has to do it. So it's either taking away from the work of the other spouse or the work of the other spouse is going to pay for those things to be done. So it does have a monetary value. And so you need to add that up and say, yeah, this is the value I bring to the marriage. And maybe you do say, you should at least give me this much in a budget every month to spend on the things I need to run the house. Wow. You guys, the things Rachel does in our family.

is worth a fortune. It is worth a fortune. It is legitimately worth a fortune. And it would be very messed up of me as a husband and I'm gonna throw this out here fellas. Like if you somehow think what you do is more important and you have this sense of competition in your marriage, it's gonna be detrimental.

Rachel Denning (14:30.765)
and totally misplaced and I'll actually take this opportunity right now to say something, I wanna drop the hammer here. If you do any kind of bullying in your marriage, in my mind, any bullying disqualifies you as a man. Not okay. Like there is no place for any kind of bullying, any kind of authoritarianism or.

Totalitarianism or any kind of tyranny in your home or your marriage and if you're doing that ooh You and I need to have a talk out behind the whoopin shed No, I'm not you but threaten yourself man. Stop. It's not okay. It disqualifies you as a man if You're kind of bully and pushing around your spouse or your wife in any way and it's particularly in money So, you know, it's like does does the spouse that brings in the money?

have more of a say in how the money is spent? No, absolutely not. Especially if, which this is the irony, especially if the money being spent is for the household and the family, which generally that's the case, who is the one that's actually in charge of the household and the family? Usually the spouse that's home. But I earned it. I'm gonna play this role here, because I can see the thinking. I...

bust my butt. I go to this job and I don't even like my job. I'm trading my life for money. You can't just go spend it. And that's, I get that, that's a legitimate concern for the spouse who is giving their life to earning the money.

And yet, that doesn't mean they have all the say. Now, there's other issues that could be involved here, especially if the spouse doesn't like their job, they hate what they're doing, they're miserable. That's a whole nother issue. Like, you need some life coaching. You need to like figure out how to do work you actually enjoy. And, well, and you're, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say it ties into, and it comes back to this scarcity thinking about money.

Rachel Denning (16:44.845)
Like, well this is the only way I can get money and this is the only source and it's doing work I hate. All of that is directly tied into scarcity thinking. Right, so if there's, if I have some kind of money issue with Rachel spending money, I've got to not look at her? We'll address bad habits the spouses might have. Because if she's reckless with money and just blowing money on whatever and she comes home with this ridiculous doodads.

I was like, really? I had a trade of hour of my life for that. Really? Or she's blown on whatever. I get that, right? But aside from that, like I'm not gonna, any issue I have with her, I'm not gonna direct it. Her, I'm gonna first look at myself. Like Rachel was just saying, like this is key fellas, and for all of us, if I feel trapped or stuck or limited or miserable or unfulfilled, that's on me. If I feel like I can't earn more money,

That's on me. That is a fixed mindset that I have to change. So you are not stuck. So her spending money, especially if she's spending money on homeschooling kids or running the house, that's not his problem. The money needs to be spent because you can't because you hate your job doesn't mean the family should suffer financially, mentally, emotionally, all of those things. If I personally am limited in my own skill set, my own earning ability.

or I'm playing the victim, or I'm choosing to stay in a career I don't want to stay in because maybe I'm afraid, maybe I just want to stay with the comfort. You see all these issues, or maybe I have scarcity problems, and I'm portraying that now. And again, this is just basic psychology, but it's so profound. I'm portraying my own issues and my own insecurities, my own frustrations. I'm actually putting it on somebody else and saying, well, you're making me frustrated about this. You're causing this problem by spending money.

When the reality is, I gotta own that and say, would that bother me if I were earning more and doing work I love and leveling up myself? The question you always love to ask people, your coaching clients, is would this be a problem if you were 10 times more competent in earning money or in managing money or in whatever it is? If your capability and competencies were 10 times better?

Rachel Denning (19:08.781)
Yeah, it wouldn't be an issue then. So the problem is not the money and the problem is not the spouse spending the money. The problem is you. The competence. And we have to own it, right? And so lovingly, we're going to say that, Hey, the problem is you. And that one, that question just nails it on this. If you are 10 times better at earning money and doing it in the things you love and adding value to the marketplace, would, would you be fretting over the.

the reams of paper your kids go through because they love drawing. Drawing? It happens at our house. They do one teeny little drawing in the corner of a full sheet of paper and they're like, I already drew on that one. You're like, no. Right? Would it be an issue? Right? And so we have to, we have to look and again, we're being straight here, but lovingly also. And I, and I help people do all this time and, and I can help you.

develop the skill set and I can help you develop the mindset and I can help you get out. I get it fellas, I've felt trapped and stuck before. I can speak this way because I have felt the pain big time. I've been in that spot where I was hurting so much and I felt stuck. I felt limited in how much I could earn and I hated what I was doing. And so for her to spend something on

For her to spend something on... Ten dollars. Money on something I didn't think was important. Oh man, and that was... But the problem was me, fellas. The problem was me. And that's why we got to make this shift. So, because the reality is, like, the point of earning money is not just to have money. Money on its own, it's essentially an idea, right?

especially our little numbers in the bank that aren't backed by anything real. That's a whole nother traffic. But it's basically this idea. So money in and of itself is really of little value. You can't eat it, you can't sleep on it, you can't, you know. It's what we do with the money. It's using it as a tool for resources, for experiences, for growth.

Rachel Denning (21:31.917)
for development, that is the greatest use of our money, is to use it to invest in the growth and development of ourselves and our family. That to me is the whole reason we earn money. If it's not for that, it's for nothing. It is a tool to be traded for growth and experiences and good things. So let me lean into that a little bit. Some of you are misers and you have, you know, we're going to go with this metaphor of tools. You have a shed.

packed full of tools that you never use. You're like, no, you can't use those tools. They're just sitting there, right? Or a bed. You hold on and you save and save and save. And we're all about saving. Saving's fantastic. In fact, somebody one time said that if you can't save, greatness is not in you. Like, wow. You've got to save. And then others are just spenders. You're just blowing all your money. You're using those tools for frothy, frivolous stuff. And you're not getting...

much value out of you're entertaining yourselves to death and you're becoming like hoarders and living in a... So you have all kinds of stuff and things and garbage and all this and yet you're not trading it for real experiences, meaningful stuff. Well and I want to point out like that's the other extreme because there's people that are the misers and then there's the people that are the spenders and maybe there's one of each in your marriage, right? So we're not saying that just spending, spending, spending is also the way to fulfillment and growth.

development that's not true either because you can go too far where it becomes kind of a I don't know a buffer to real growth and development you're just using it to like distract yourself or entertain yourself because you don't want to face the hard issues that's the other extreme of this issue of money and that's that's pretty common there's a lot of people who are addicted to spending have you guys ever done that? Just for the sake of spending. Like you just feel like oh I just need to go buy something.

And we're addicted to shopping, to getting something new, to spending them, to buying something. So let's hop on Amazon, we buy something just because we just have this, like almost get your fix of spending or buying. But that's very different than having a specific need that you're trying to fulfill, a specific, specific, specific frustration you're trying to resolve. It's okay to use money for all of those things.

Rachel Denning (23:51.853)
It's okay to make your life easier and more interesting and more fulfilling by using money, right? And that includes simple things like computers for doing schoolwork or work or, you know, supplies, resources, classes for you, for your children. Books. All of those things are great. More books. More books. Lots of books around here.

So again, we're ultimately trying to find this balance. And included in this balance is not one spouse deciding for the other spouse what brings them meaning fulfillment and is worthy of spending money on. That's not correct either. So if step one is to be introspective and work on your own understanding of relationship with money and rewrite the meaning you've given to money, then step two I would say is,

is sit down with your spouse and come to some kind of agreement on what you value for your family, for your life. Well, I'm going to change the wording there. Not necessarily an agreement, but an understanding because there could be two different views. There could be a disagreement in what each spouse believes is valuable, but to understand each other and where you're at. And that's been so important.

In our marriage, so this this is actually really relevant because you're right. We haven't come to an agreement We've come to an understanding. Yes, Greg likes to spend money on gear. I Don't get it. You already have three backpacks for backpacking But he's like, but they're all different for different purposes. Oh, so I spend a lot of money on gear because he likes adventures and he likes having the right gear and he says you can't bring a tractor to

shovel to a tractor fight and things like that so I'll spend money on that and on things that I find valuable and she just looks at me like you I don't get you why and then and it to me it means the world and then I'm in the kitchen and I'm like well I need this utensil for this and I need this tool for this and I need this for this like there's a different tool for all the different things. You can use a butter knife for all of those things. No you can't.

Rachel Denning (26:14.477)
She'll often find resources for home education, right? And I'm like, really? Really? And I've stopped. I've stopped questioning. I'm like, OK. You got your domain, babe. You got your space. I don't necessarily agree. But you're leading out over there. And I'm OK with that. Go for it. Because I've done the research. And I'm looking for the insights for each child and what they need and what's going to work. And if this is going to fill that gap.

And so yeah, he trusts me in that, that I'm competent enough to make a wise decision. Now, if your spouse doesn't think you're competent enough, that's a whole nother issue that needs to be dealt aside from or along with the money thing. If you've proven in the past that you're not totally competent, okay, then you need to improve your competency, right? You have to...

You have to rebuild that entire thing. So you, and this comes up, this comes up in coaching sessions sometimes, it comes up often where one of the spouses genuinely is, has not developed the skill of managing money and using money well. And if that's you or your spouse, that has to be remedied. It's gotta be fixed. You can't just blow money. You can't just.

mismanagered or where did it go? And you have no tracking system, you have no idea or you maybe you just haven't developed the discipline to not buy everything that's on sale just because it's on sale. And you're saving money by buying it on sale. Or you go to Costco and you're like I'm only going for one thing and you come out a thousand dollars later and they had this great deal and there was a guy doing a presentation I had to get it.

If you have struggles, then those need to be addressed. So we're not dismissing that. It needs to be addressed. And honestly, get to a place where you can have that honest conversation where if it were me and Rachel, we would sit down and say, babe, where do you think I need to be better with money? And then I'd say, you know, maybe can I share some things where I think you could work on money? Maybe you approach it even better than that, the wording, but you see I'm saying we have to be able to have this dialogue.

Rachel Denning (28:38.509)
and this understanding and if there's been issues and finally she's able to say to me, Greg, you haven't done very well at this XYZ aspect of money. I'm, oh, okay, I get it. Now I know what I can work on to help resolve the issue. Well, and another thing that you have talked to your coaching clients about is having a budget for the one spouse. If there's...

If there is a spouse that won't change or this is an ongoing issue and you know there's a non -income earning spouse that would like freedom to spend some money on their own because again they're still bringing value to the family unit so that value should have a monetary it should have a monetary value. And because of the dynamics that spouse may not have like the ability just to have spending money to spend on whatever they want.

Right, that should be okay too. Rachel needs to have money. So let's say if I'm the only one earning money, she needs to have an account. Which is not true. Yeah, she earns the money. So then let's flip this. I need to have a spending account. I can buy whatever I want. Actually that's funny. More shoes. That's funny because that's actually probably been more of the case because even when Greg only earns the money, I've always been the one.

in charge of the finances just because I like it. I like spreadsheets, I like numbers, I like doing all that kind of stuff. So I've always paid the bills and all that and there's been times where you've been like, can I just have some money? I can just spend on whatever I want. I'm like, sure babe, you can. That's true. Cause our, yeah, our dynamics for so long was I was working and she managed everything. She pays the bills. You guys, I will embarrassingly admit here.

I don't even know how to log into our bank accounts. Like she takes care of all that. And that's been our agreement from the getting. She loves that. She loves the details. I'm like, babe, I'll just put money in the accounts. You go. And then there's literally been times like, can I just buy something? I'm like, no, that's not in the budget. Or what's been crazy is I have no way to buy something for her as a surprise gift. Because I'm like, I have zero access to anything without her knowing exactly what I just did. She's like, what this? Nothing.

Rachel Denning (30:53.197)
Stop asking. So now I think you do have your own little account. I have to. Your own little secret account. So thank you all these new little fancy apps that are coming up where you can hide money away. I get to buy stuff for her now and I can surprise her. But going back to what I was saying with your coaching clients that sometimes it's helpful to just set up an account for your spouse and be like, okay, here, this is your money to do whatever you want with. Maybe that includes, you can decide if that includes stuff for the house.

stuff for the kids and then stuff for themselves. If they want to go out and they see some shoes on sale, like they can buy the shoes without it being a big deal. That right there, first of all, it portrays a trust in your spouse that you don't think they're completely idiotic and incompetent, right? And it gives them a sense of freedom and individuality that they're allowed to have. They're not your little minion.

or you're little, like, I don't know, whatever. Again, if you have, boundaries are healthy. Boundaries are extremely healthy. So maybe you see, people have called it financial buckets. You have these buckets or you guys, if you're just using a traditional bank account and you have one account and you have a checkbook, like welcome to the 21st century. Come on people. Get these bank accounts that.

Inside the account you can separate your money into and you can label it all different things and there's apps like okay This can be this can be spending for the house. This can be spending for our bills and then I love this idea discretionary spending just this is blow your money on whatever you want, babe, and and you can have blow your money maybe you're on your account, it's like 250 bucks and I met a lady one time she's like, yeah My husband gives me 10 grand every month to just spend on whatever I want. I'm like, oh, yeah That's awesome, right and get to work, man

Like again, I'm just gonna speak for me. If I was the only one earning, I'm gonna bust my tail so that Rachel can just have a budget. She can buy whatever she's stinking wants. Right? And that's on me. Just cause it's fun. She comes home like, I bought this cause it's fun. I was like, well, that's the ugliest decoration I've ever seen. And she's like, I love it. And she hangs it up in the bathroom. Like whatever. Great. Right? And then you cover the account for the...

Rachel Denning (33:16.333)
And again, here boundaries, right? I'm gonna give this tool, because I know this comes up often. If your spouse struggles staying in boundaries, then come to an understanding or an agreement where, okay, I'm gonna, here's this account for spending. This card or this account right here is for taking care of all the bills. It has just that amount in there, so use it for that. And that's it. Use it for the house. Use it for this. There's a boundary here. And maybe you have an account or a card for the homeschooling.

And okay, that's what you get to use on the homeschooling. And here, this is your discretionary spending. This you spend on whatever it is you feel like you need to spend it on. So predetermine all those things. If this is an issue, again, we're just giving you ideas and options. If this is an issue, predetermine those amounts as much as possible and then have savings accounts or separate accounts for each of those things and then let your spouse do their thing instead of having to...

try to control every little aspect, every little issue, every penny that's spent because ultimately that's not healthy for your marriage. It's not productive to helping the other spouse feel like they have any sort of autonomy and to demonstrating that you have any trust in them to be able to make decisions about how they could spend money. Now that's not to say that we shouldn't track our spending. We should know where it goes.

and we should have savings accounts and we should have investments accounts and we should be moving in a financially solid direction for our future but part of that budgeting or tracking is gotta allow some autonomy and some freedom and some fun people. Exactly, some fun. Now, I'm gonna bring up another point here that is important and this could be true for either spouse.

Sometimes.

Rachel Denning (35:16.941)
Well, I mean, in situations like this, the spouse that feels like they're less in control, sometimes they want to blame that on their, the more controlling spouse. Well, they won't let me. They don't, you know, I don't know, what's another word for that? They don't let me do it. Now, there's this word in psychology, it's called collusion.

And what it means is that you are as much contributing to their control over you as they are contributing to their control over you. Meaning people treat you the way you allow them to treat you. Now sometimes, especially in a marriage, we go along with things. We allow our spouse to do these things to us. We put up with a lot of crap and tolerate it. Because we want to avoid conflict or confrontation. But we have seen...

over and over again and this is we've heard this from other psychologists and marriage counselors that sometimes in marriage and in any relationship sometimes you have to reach a breaking point sometimes you have to have that fight like sometimes you have to do things that intention if you've tried to talk to your spouse if you've tried to reason with them if you've tried to whatever and it doesn't work sometimes you have to get to that

breaking point where they take real notice that you're serious about this. You're not just you know saying things just because like you're serious about it. You have to put your foot down. You gotta put your foot down. Now this is important. Doesn't have to be on top of their foot. You're not putting your foot down on top of your spouse's foot. That's intentional like pain. You're just putting your foot down and it often doesn't lead to more fighting. It actually leads to this uncomfortable silence of like oh.

She means business or he means business and something needs to change. I would invite you to make sure you've done your homework, so to speak. You know what you're talking about. You've got a foundation. No, you're not. You're not off. Yeah. You're not requesting something that's actually crazy. Unreasonable. Or unreasonable. And when you're there, just say, you know what? I'm putting my foot down here. Something has to change.

Rachel Denning (37:42.189)
And I said to Greg before we started this podcast, I was like, if I was in this type of situation where I felt like you were very controlling over something, especially money, I'm like, if I, and if I tried everything else, I'm going to talk, I'm going to reason, I'm going to try to articulate, I'm going to persuade. She's going to invite me to listen to podcasts or read books. I'm going to do all those things. And if those still didn't work and he was still being stubborn about it, then I'd be like, fine.

I'm going to go out and spend the money anyways and if I don't have, if I literally don't have access to any of the cards or spending, like that's a problem. But I'm going to take your wallet. I'm going to find a way or I'm going to make my own stinking money or I'm going to stop doing certain things and be like, you know what? I'll do the dishes and I'll make dinner when you pay me to do them. Oh yeah. That's the feistiness in me. And if that causes a fight in our marriage, so be it because guess what? Our marriage is going to be way better on the other side of that fight.

then it will be staying on this side, avoiding that conflict. Mostly because that viciness is really sexy. Yeah. So that's my other thought about this is like, yes, I get it. You feel like you're in less control because you don't earn the money, but you need to recognize your own power and how much value you bring and how much monetary value that is actually worth.

and how much say you should be able to have. And so you need to have those conversations with your spouse. And then if necessary, put your foot down and say, you know what, I'm gonna no longer allow this. If I want or need this thing, I am deciding because I'm competent and capable and I'm going to get them. And if you have a problem with that, then let's duke it out right here because this is a problem for me that you have a problem with it. Yeah. And that's...

It's maybe hard to hear and it might be hard to do, but at some point if you genuinely have really truly tried and it's just not something needs to change then we want you to put your foot down for real. Just stand on your own two feet. And what happens? Yeah, that's exactly what you're doing. You're not trying to stomp on them. You're standing on your own two feet and saying this is who I am and this is how I feel and this is what I'm going to do or not do. And that's awesome. That's healthy. It's maturity. It's...

Rachel Denning (40:07.885)
It's about being an adult. It's ownership for you. Yes, it's ownership and you're owning that role and it's attractive and it's empowering. You guys, we don't want to be in marriages where one of us is the little child spouse. I'm not interested in having a little child wife and she's not interested in having a little child husband. I want to be married to someone who can stand on her own feet and like, oh, okay. I better level up here because you're...

You're a woman, right? And it's powerful and exciting and amazing. So again, there's so many dynamics to this. And this whole element of trust, which I've done other episodes on, trust is all about character and competence. And we both need to have that. We both need to have character and we both need to have competence. And it can't be this groveling, needy little dependence.

from one side or the other, and it can't be the bullying or the tyranny or the dictatorship from one or the other. And those kind of weird issues pop up around money because it's so sensitive and so intense and so emotional. And so necessary. And yeah, it's necessary for the growth and development of the rest of your life. So yeah, it's an obvious sore point or point of contention. So let's...

Let's hold up an ideal. What's the ideal? So you and your spouse. Well, I think it's tough to come up with an ideal because it depends on each of the partners in the relationship and how they feel about money and what role they want to play. But I think if there was an ideal, it would be... Make lots of money. Make lots of money and have fun spending. Yeah! Woo!

And that's partly true. You guys, I hope, I genuinely hope you all are living abundantly. And if you're not, figure out how to change that. Start working on some skill sets and start working on your earning ability. That's your greatest asset. So go there and have all the wealth you want. If you believe that that's not possible, that's only because you're, you're operating in your own limiting beliefs. It is completely, absolutely possible for anyone who would be listening to this. I think another idea.

Rachel Denning (42:34.221)
Ideal is like we mentioned before like be willing to spend money on memories experiences resources growth improvement anything that makes life meaningful and enjoyable and fun Some of you don't spend any money and so your lives are boring Like lame. No, I'm not sorry. I'm gonna call it out Like you're so tight with it for whatever reason and this this is to some of you friends who are millionaires. I?

and some of you are broke, you don't spend money on fun, on living. You're gonna look back and be like, I got a sweet bank account, but I lived a lame life. Yuck. So be willing to do that and then again, I'm holding up another ideal here. Keep talking and keep learning and keep studying and keep reading the books, going to courses until you have a similar.

Mindset and understanding and even an agreement around money how it's brought in and how it goes out But then allow your spouse whether they earn income or not because they still bring value to the relationship and the family To have some autonomy in spending money Well and make sure you bring value there are instances Where one spouse don't bring they don't bring value they sit around doing a whole lot of nothing and and the other spouse is like

Well, do you know what? Because you're not doing anything. And I think in that case, thank you for bringing that up. I think in that case, that's legitimate to withhold some money. Because if they're literally not doing anything and you're just providing for them to do nothing with their life, that's not helpful to them or you either. So again, maybe you have to get to that breaking point of like, I'm cutting off your spending. Right? Because you're not doing anything and I'm just paying for it.

So that's a whole other side of it. There's a lot of dynamics here. There's a lot of possibilities. But again, look at it through these different angles and figure out how you can have these hard conversations and make some changes so that things work better for both of you. Woo! OK. OK. Love it. Let's actually share this with someone who you think might need to hear it, including your spouse, if necessary. No, do do that for sure.

Rachel Denning (44:58.765)
Because the more you can get on the same page, this is a key ingredient to our marriage. You guys, we have a phenomenal marriage. The key ingredient from the get -go is we were reading good books together and discussing them. Or listening to things together and then discussing it. So yes, if we had something like this that we listen to and we're like, this is a problem for us, we need to talk about it, then I would say, Greg, you need to listen to this so we can talk about it. So that's a fantastic strategy that we've used throughout our marriage that works great, that sometimes leads to difficult conversations.

that we don't necessarily want to have, but after having them, our marriage is that much better. Yes, yes, yes. And again, money can actually, instead of being a source of contention, which it is for many couples, it can actually be a really powerful source of connection. Exactly. Where we can connect around, well, in our circumstance, we connect around earning money.

and spending money and investing money. And so it's a connection point for all of us. So you guys, if this has been helpful, if you liked it, be sure to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, go on iTunes and leave a review and then share it, right? And get this out there and help us join this movement to help good people live extraordinary family lives. Love you guys. Reach upward.