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Rachel Denning (00:01.678)
Hey, welcome to another episode of the extraordinary family life podcast. This one's going to be a doozy. It'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. Rachel's here with me. It's going to be exciting and maybe uncomfortable and maybe some discomfort. Like we're, we're ready to lean into this one. So we were kind of like, we're like nervous and excited and feel like this, man, this needs to be happening. It's a roundup.

some very charged topics that some might feel very sensitive towards, but... Well, I'll give a quick background because obviously not everyone's going to be aware of this, but Greg essentially shared a meme. Let me... Can I? I'll explain that part. Shared a meme on his Facebook. Which I rarely get on Facebook. Neither of us rarely do and we have good reasons for that, which we'll explain. I saw a post. I did not read the post. I just saw the picture.

It was just a poster. And it struck me as having some depth for individual reflection. Because as I read it, I did some personal reflecting. I thought, wow, that's profound. I think there's some depth there that could be beneficial to individuals to reflect about. And I hit share.

And went on, didn't think about it, never went back. Didn't check, didn't do anything. Later, I'm on my Facebook. We're going to a date, and I was checking something on Facebook, and I was like, wow. I was like, yeah, that's pretty good. And same thing. I kind of had some individual reflection about it, because I think that's where we are right here now in our journey with the lens we have, which we're going to come back to, which is important. And then I noticed, first of all, I didn't even know it was Greg that had shared it, because he never does that. And then I noticed.

There was like all these comments on it. And then I noticed that they were getting intense with these conversations, these debates that were happening. And I was like, wow. And then I noticed. First she's like, is this on your post or is this somebody else's post? Did you share this post? And people are having all these intense discussions on this post you shared. Like, we were kind of shocked. And then the reason we're now here making this podcast, first,

Rachel Denning (02:22.382)
Well, let me share what the meme says. No, no, not yet. We'll get there. The reason we're doing the podcast is because we realized this is a charged issue. People have very intense emotions around this issue. And so... Issues. There's going to be plural. Yeah, you're right. There's multiple issues. There's layers of issues in this. And because there's a lot of charged emotion around it, that to us is always a sign.

that this is something worth talking about. It's something that needs to be discussed as individuals. If we could get together with you and talk about it, that's what we would do. But since we can't do that, we're doing a podcast. It needs to be discussed in our homes. It needs to be discussed within ourselves, right? Self -understanding within our communities and ultimately, you know, as societies, nations and the world, this is the charge thing that needs to be diffused in order to help.

there'd be more understanding about what's actually going on in the world. Yes, and we have to be able to hear all sides without getting angry, throwing punches, making stabs or insults, and only looking for confirmation bias. We can't have these discussions only with people that agree with us. We've got to be able to have them with people that disagree with us so we can really wrap our heads around it. And so we were coming home from our dinner last night from our favorite restaurant, and we read through all of the comments, every one of them thoughtfully. We did, yeah.

Well, and I want to add this, like, we're going to be discussing things that are controversial right now, but we are not making a statement or a claim on one side or the other. What we're trying to do in this podcast... Well, I might make a couple. Okay. But you're not trying to convince any... No, I'm not. I'm trying to share my thoughts. What we're trying to do is, is backup. We want to help everyone zoom out and take a 30 ,000 foot view.

what the situation really is and yeah we're gonna we're gonna get into that. So I know that some of you will agree with us. I know that some of you will completely disagree with us and some of you will be totally neutral and that's great that's fantastic. I hope that you will all try to be kind in your thoughts and feelings towards us and particularly towards others with whom you might disagree.

Rachel Denning (04:47.406)
Topics like this can be so difficult and emotionally charged and many of you have had poignant personal experiences already that really focus your feelings like a laser beam and that can be really good and powerful. But sometimes it can also cause temporary blindness to things that might be outside of that focus. So here's what I did mentally before I started this because I wanted to be in a good place. I went through...

and gave mentally gave a hug, big old sincere hug, no animosity to everyone that I know personally who had left a comment. And it was so fun you guys, because there's people commenting from years, years back, friends we had in Alaska and friends from Australia and friends we met traveling around the world and former students and people we've met all over the place from different backgrounds and experiences. And it was fun to.

to hear your name and your thoughts and remember our... Hear your name because I was reading the comments to you while we drove through. Yeah, so I'm driving and she's saying the names and I'm like, oh man, I remember this experience and that experience. Oh, I remember when I first met you and the times we met up and all the cool things. It was just fun. Even like if you totally disagreed with me and some of you like left comments or like, okay, I feel a little thrown under the bus there, but like I didn't care. I still was like, I remember. You cried. No.

sobbing on the way home. How could they say that? No, like I honestly I wasn't engaged emotionally like at a charge like taking this personally because well we'll get into it. My intent wasn't to defend your position. To defend my position or even to make a position with this and that's what we're gonna get into. I just thought it was insightful personally as an individual.

but it came across as though I were, an accusation. Well, even that the post was making some kind of statement towards specific things and that drew it out. Yeah. Or that you were trying to shame people for being on one side or other of the issue. Or, yep, or trying to divide, be divisive or even negative or pessimistic. You guys know I'm a very optimistic, positive guy. I still am. There are, hasn't changed. There are things that are happening that are like, Whoa, okay. That, that requires some attention.

Rachel Denning (07:04.206)
and maybe some comments and some dialogue, the things that weren't happening even just a few years ago. And so it's worth talking about, but okay, let's dive in. Should we, should we share? So you want to first say what the meme was? It was, it's a, it's like a, it's like a poster board. Like, yeah, it looks like a protesting poster board. We can't both just talk at the same time. That's going to be too... All right. You go first, dear. I am telling.

It's a poster board. So it's a picture of a poster board like a protesting poster, right? Like someone's holding up a sign and it says, if you've ever wondered whether you would have complied during 1930s Germany, now you know. Now probably I would guess all of you right now may have some immediate reaction to that because whatever that is.

You are, and this is inevitable, every single one of us do this. We can't avoid doing this. We have a lens that we read everything through. And so depending on whatever it is you're reading, thinking, talking about with your friends, family, like whatever is going on in your life, whatever, all the books you've read, all the movies you've watched, all of that has produced your lens. And so depending on what that lens is, you have an immediate reaction to something like this, this meat, right? Now we've been conditioned.

kind of through formal education process to when we think of 19, well in this case it says 1930s Germany, the immediate thought is what? Nazis and the Holocaust and World War II, right? And so our minds immediately jump there. But in this case when I read that my mind did not go to the Holocaust and did not go to World War II because...

World War II and the Holocaust. Like if you were just to Google right now, like when did the Holocaust happen? It would say 1941 to 45 or something like that, right? So it really happened in the 40s. Yes, you could easily argue that it started in the late 30s. But when, when my mind came across this, when I saw the 1930s, I was like, Ooh, right. Rachel and I, and so I realize now after all this, this comment, there's actually a prerequisite base of knowledge before you might see.

Rachel Denning (09:18.83)
what I saw is some depth here. And I shared it really for individual reflection. Well, let me expand on that for a second. The prerequisite knowledge, okay, well, I'm gonna jump the gun here. Go for it, go for it. Pre -requisite knowledge in this case is that you've studied a lot about World War II history. Well, that's where I was gonna go. Okay, I'll circle back to this. So, the intent was individual reflection because it says, have you ever wondered whether you would have complied? Holy cow, I have asked myself that question so...

many times and I'll circle back to why and why this is starting with us. I just want to give more depth and background to this. I'm going to. Let me add some, okay, to your story. Starting with you reading The Hiding Place. Okay, yes. By Corey Chin Boon. When I was out on my own as a 16 year old, it really was the first book that just, just changed my life. She became, I was, I was living in a horrible part of town just as...

discouraged 16 year olds. Yeah. I was, my life is horrible. Everything's terrible. And somehow I got a copy of this book. I don't even think it had a cover on it. And I just read it. It was the hiding place by Corey Tenbone and, and walking through that book carefully and methodically what happened, especially early on, right? What happened was so profound for me. And so it started there. It literally started there. What would I have done?

And I asked myself that so that was my first introduction in Harlem in the Netherlands in the 30s. What would I have done? It was so fascinating, but so when I shared this it was professional reflection because I'd asked. I'll come back. I'm going on a slight tangent here to add some more depth to the significance of this question because the other thing that we've been discussing is that yes, we

Maybe sometimes all of us have asked ourselves that question, well, what would I have done? Obviously, I would have hidden the Jews. Obviously, I would have helped out. Obviously, I wouldn't have persecuted. Obviously, I wouldn't have turned in my neighbors. That's, I think, all of our immediate response, because we want to believe in our own goodness. But the reality is, if you study history in depth, and the other thing, which you're probably going to talk about, is that you just finished reading the Gulag, archipelago. Archipelago. Archipelago.

Rachel Denning (11:41.678)
The statistical probability of you being one of those people who hid the Jews, like, you know, being a Schindler or a Cory Tinboom, the statistical probability of that is actually very slim. So despite the fact that we would like to believe that we would be one of those people, the reality is you probably would not.

That's... I don't know if you felt that, I felt that right there because I know that that's a sad and disheartening and hard to swallow fact.

The probability is that you would not have been.

Rachel Denning (12:25.422)
So that... And even if you're sitting right here listening saying, not me, I would have, just sit on that for a second and say, well, wait a minute, if there was real threats to you or your family, people you love, just even just go hypothetically say, okay, maybe I did, maybe I would have. And just roll with that for a minute mentally as we go through this and put yourself in the opposite position. Now we are in no way making any political statements with this at all. All we're doing is talking about history. And even...

Even bringing that up. Guess what in the 1930s that wasn't happening. The Jews weren't being persecuted and hauled off to concentration camps. They weren't being killed yet. That's the point of this post. I wasn't talking about the Holocaust. I wasn't talking about that. Nor are you talking about the current political situation either. In specifics. So you totally beautifully jumped the gun there. I know. So I'll circle back here a little bit. She's like, oh I got a tip.

So I had zero intent of being divisive or attacking or shaming, but, but had or shaming or, or making conclusions or judgments or saying, Oh, you this, and if you do this, then you're complying and you're like those evil people. I was not doing any of that. And I don't want to do that at all today. But because of all the reading I've done across history and sociology and psychology and all the traveling,

extensive, extensive traveling. Specifically having traveled to Berlin, to Auschwitz. Having lived in Germany. We lived in Germany, our daughter was born in Germany. And I lead a World War II expedition to Germany and Eastern Europe, like deeply studying all of these pieces and elements, and it has just, it blew me away. Going to the museum that's literally on the exact location where the Third Reich headquarters were located. The SS headquarters.

And the little insights in there, the subtleties about how like this was a, it was a long -term campaign. It was a long, they were playing the long game and it was so subtle and so strategic and so seemingly harmless. Now again, this is not a political statement.

Rachel Denning (14:39.694)
Our minds want to immediately jump to, oh, well, you must be saying then that means this about today's situation. And that we're going to be Nazis if we do it. Nope. All we're saying is read and study history and think about it. That's it. And after reading and studying and traveling so extensively and talking to people from all walks of life and different opinions, it really comes down to a point like I would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb to not notice some patterns. And so it's good for individual reflections, right?

So the big question is then, and here's one of the key pieces we want to touch on today, is in, you know, Germany in 1931 was vastly different, night and day different from 1941. But most of us know about 1941. In 31, it wasn't clear cut. It wasn't black and white.

It was just a little bit off. It seemed a little like, well, this is kind of interesting. Yeah, and it started, I guess one of our main points is, it started leading to gradual restriction and loss of freedom. And this is big, big picture thinking. Now, again, some people are going to be like, see, now that's a political statement. We're not, all we're doing here.

is trying to, because this is what we do on a daily basis, I mean Greg and I have these types of discussions like practically every day. This is our life. You'd love being around our house because every day, hey, what about this? Kids, come here. But it's not, we get that excited about like health and about working out and about, you know, like all kinds of topics. So. Training the dog. Training the dog. Let's get excited about that.

So we get excited about all kinds of topics and we're always learning. But one of the things we're always doing is we're always asking questions and we're always trying to look at things from a broader perspective. If you look at it just as the issue that's going on, then you miss the broader issues. So yes, COVID is a thing right now. COVID is real. Deaths are happening. Things like there's stuff going on, the vaccine, all of this stuff. That is a real issue. But it's not the only issue.

Rachel Denning (17:06.445)
in the world.

Our focus is so much on this issue that it feels like the only issue sometimes, but it's not. We have to back up. We have to zoom out. And we have to look at what's happening now from a broader view of how it fits into patterns and cycles in history, psychology, sociology, all these other domains of knowledge. So a couple of metaphors might be, you know,

some of the issues she just addressed and there's quite a few right now. It's kind of a hotbed for issues right now politically and socially. I don't think any of us can deny that things are kind of crazy and confusing right now. And there's a lot going on, there's a lot of animosity, but to go with the metaphor you might say, you know, these issues are not the entire painting. They are not the entire mosaic.

they might be a brushstroke or two or three or 10 or more, or a couple of little pieces of tile, but they do not represent the whole picture. And the only way to see the painting. So envision with us, as we talked through the day, envision with us that there's this big, big painting. And if we don't back up, we're standing so close to it. We can only discern a couple of little things. And we think, yeah, this is it right here. And we're talking, but we're confined.

with a narrow view or confined to just a few brushstrokes or even a small segment of the painting. But the invitation here is take some steps back. That doesn't mean we have to be insensitive or, or ignorant. It doesn't mean we don't go deep into those specific brushstrokes and tile pieces because they are part of the mosaic or the painting. And they're important. And they're super important and we need to understand them, but we have to back out far enough to see.

Rachel Denning (18:57.838)
how they fit in with the rest of the painting. Exactly. Now I feel very intensely about freedom and the loss of freedom and restrictions. Even if, if at first it seems justified or let's say it is justified or if it seems subtle or if it seems inconsequential or insignificant, it's like, that's not that big of a deal.

Any restriction or control, any loss of freedom that it doesn't. And here's an important point. Here's what I want to say. I think we need to this this section here. We need to kind of word it as a question. What we're doing now is we're asking the question. We need to ask the question because again the whole issue with covid vaccines all that stuff that's going on. That's a whole nother topic. That's a whole nother discussion to have which we're not going to have right now.

What we need to do is zoom out, back up, and ask questions. Bigger picture questions. Now, if it's okay, I kind of actually, before we get into that, maybe we want to talk about some of the things, well, which you kind of did, but like what it's not, what we're not saying. We're not saying if you get vaccinated or don't get vaccinated, you're like Nazi Germany. If you believe in, you know, whatever, this specific,

specific political viewpoint, then you're like Nazi Germany. What we're trying to do is back up and say, what are the similarities? What are the patterns? Because there are some patterns between today's confusion and chaos that can be compared to something like 1930s Germany. Early 1930s specifically. Because it was a time of societal...

upheaval of sorts, right? I mean there was there was some social changes and transformations. There were some political changes and transformation. I think I think Hitler went into power in 33 but again the Hitler from 33 and the Hitler from 43 are very different people. There was an evolution there, right? Right, because nobody comes into power just like I'm gonna you know kill the Jews and and put your old people in concentration camps. Like it doesn't happen that way and we...

Rachel Denning (21:22.062)
All of us are aware of that. It's a gradual thing that takes place over time. So the fact that there can be comparisons made...

is that, you know, there's nothing wrong with making that comparison. The point we wanted, what happens then, people jump to the conclusion, well then that means that, you know, you're thinking we're gonna be killing people or Jews or concentration camps or we're gonna become Nazis. Exactly, you're saying, you're saying if we give up a little bit of our freedoms now, it's going to lead to Holocaust. And thank you for bringing that up. We are not saying that at all. What we do want to say, or at least I do, I wanna say emphatically.

that loss of freedom, though it doesn't necessarily lead to a Holocaust or Italy in the 40s, Russia, geez, in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, they just finished the Gulag, or China or Japan in that time, or North Korea still today, Venezuela today, or any other authoritarian or totalitarian state, what I do want to say though is when we begin to lose freedoms, first subtly,

Even the mightiest, most destructive flood begins with rivulets and droplets. I want to rephrase that. What happens? I guess I'm trying to say we're trying to have a discussion. We're trying to ask questions because that's how you think instead of being told what to think, which a lot of that's going on. In fact, in the comments mostly it's people telling other people what to think.

Here's the facts, here's the figures, here's the data. When you want to learn how to think, you have to ask questions. You have to ask bigger picture questions. So in essence, this is, and I think that's what we're doing ourselves, Greg and I, we're asking the questions. When, in history, when freedoms have been taken away, well, this is a poorly worded question, but what has it led to? What has,

Rachel Denning (23:30.67)
The restriction of freedom led to... Historically. Historically. And there's lots of answers. There are many, many answers. There's not just one answer. But there is a pattern, and generally that pattern is that when the loss of freedoms occur and it occurs gradually, the ultimate outcome is not pretty. How about we just leave it at that? Well, let's ask another question.

If you go studying through history, and again, the best way, in fact, perhaps the only way to truly understand current events is to understand past events. The best way to understand what's happening is to study the history. Someone recently just asked us in one of our coaching groups, they're like, well, where do I go for good information about current events and whatnot? And I'm like, we don't even know. We don't even read the news, OK? The way to understand current events is to study history, psychology, sociology.

Like to study all the other events because they give you context for what's going on now. If you try to decide or take a place or take a pick a side in a current event based on how the issues are presented, you can't. You can't. It's impossible because you're too close to it. The only way to really understand what's happening is to zoom out.

and understand it from all these other domains of knowledge. You have to understand those domains of knowledge. That's why it's cliche but true that hindsight is often 20 -20. But looking forward, you guys, none of us knows what's going to happen next year. Not at all. But we can deeply study and get at least a clearer picture of what happened in the past. And so here's my question to you. If you were to go out and study and really dig...

When has there ever been an authoritarian or totalitarian state? Wait, hold on. That right there is going to be charged because you're like, you're saying the president of the United States is authoritarian or totalitarian. No. That's not what we're saying. We're saying, well, again, we have to reword this. What does authoritarianism or totalitarianism look like? And what are the precursors to those sort of states? That's all we're saying.

Rachel Denning (25:52.43)
What are the precursors to those sort of government states? I feel comfortable saying that more restrictions and less freedoms and more government control or groups or organizations saying, no, this is how it is, this is the right thing to do and everyone's going to do it, that...

Generally that is precursor authoritarian more authoritarian. That's authoritarian verbiage exactly now that that the interesting thing about that is that does not Determine what is actually right or wrong because authoritarianism and totalitarianism isn't necessarily about what is actually right and wrong Getting a vaccine to bring it back to current events could be right but Telling everyone that because that's right. They have to do it too. That's authoritarianism

totalitarianism. Do you see the difference? Something can be right but then it can it becomes totalitarian when you enforce it on other people. That's by definition what that is. And the argument there is well if it's right they everyone should do it and needs to for the safety and benefit and well -being of the whole the group. Now interestingly that is also

the same verbiage that has been used for millennia in these kind of conditions. It's always for our safety. It's not about our freedoms. It's not about what you think or your opinions. It's for the safety and benefit of society. And so what we have to realize here is that there's always an exchange rate for everything.

It may be for the safety and benefit of everybody to get vaccinated. But if you force that, you are exchanging something for that safety. Say your view is, if everyone gets vaccinated, that will put a stop to COVID, the world would be better. Okay, what are you exchanging to achieve that goal? Because there's always something you're exchanging. And if you have to exchange some freedoms,

Rachel Denning (28:09.07)
Some people might say, okay, that's fine, I'm willing to do that. But you have to zoom out, I keep saying zoom out, because I want you to zoom out. You have to zoom out and you have to look, what are the long -term consequences for giving up those freedoms? Because the reality is, if you look through history and all the patterns, that when you give up freedom, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to get those freedoms back.

And the pattern generally is that when some freedoms are taken, it's easier to keep taking more freedoms. That's what happens. They don't come back. They don't come back. Historically. At least historically, until you reach some sort of breaking point where then there's some sort of revolution that then restores freedom. That's usually how it happens. So then I want to go back to my question of like,

Because you might in your mind be like, oh, well, it's worth it. This one's justified. This would be worth it to get its temporary benefit. But then you have to ask yourself, has there ever been an authoritarian or totalitarian state that has made you wish you lived there in that place in that time? And for me, that is a strong no. I've never come across in reading all those things, like, yeah, I wish I was there. That was amazing. That's awesome.

It always leads to something, and at least in my observation, it leads to something ugly. So I don't think any of us can... Maybe, maybe some people can. I don't know that any of us could argue that we are losing some freedoms. Wait, hold on. Clarify there. Well, in the current... Let me rephrase. Climate. Because it might have been confused. So...

I think what you're saying is, I think we could all agree that we are losing some freedoms and having some restrictions and controls put on us that weren't there before. Yes, pre -COVID. I don't think that anyone could argue the opposite of that point. No, no, no freedoms have been taken away. No, there's been no loss of liberty because we all know that we have. We can't travel to certain places because they're closed down now or...

Rachel Denning (30:31.726)
you know, whatever. There's all kinds of different restrictions that have been placed on the world that were not on the world before. And those, I think we could all agree, those restrictions are increasing. And likely to be more increased. I think we can all see that that's probably a likely scenario. Now, many of us... We have friends all around the world. I think this helps us give a, have a different perspective you guys, because we travel so much, we have friends all over the world.

We get to talk to them. Our friends were here last week and they told us about they own some property over in Indonesia. And they told us what was happening over there that I didn't know. And I was like, okay, wowzers. We have friends in Australia that are experiencing some, some insane restrictions down there. We have friends in Canada and Guatemala. We have friends in Europe right now living down there. In fact, I was in Guatemala earlier this year and I was driving my truck through this teeny little remote mountain village by myself, windows up.

The police stopped me and told me that I need to wear my mask.

while I'm driving by myself with the windows up in a remote mountain village driving through not stopping that I needed to have my mask on in my car by myself. What? What? Okay, now in my mind that is a restriction of freedom. Now some people might argue, well it's worth it if it helps the whole world be safer. And maybe you're right, but...

We can only determine if you're right by backing up and looking at it from the mosaic viewpoint, right? The big picture viewpoint. Okay, if we give up those freedoms, if we comply for the good of society, what will be the longer term consequence of that? Because there will be longer term consequences. There cannot not be consequences for the decisions we make now.

Rachel Denning (32:34.51)
And I guess circling back to the post, that's kind of what I was thinking of like, wait a minute, early on when the restrictions were beginning to happen, the little controls, the little losses of freedom, the little inconveniences, they kind of started saying, hey everybody, we're going to kind of do this. Kind of do this? Well, yeah, well, I guess it wasn't kind of. It was, hey, let's all, you know, they started putting little curfews on or little political things or we're going to treat this, do that. It was small things.

I can't think of any specific right now, but you read... Well, like being locked down maybe? Mansions for meeting. Well, but you read even... Bonehofer. That's such a great book. I'm Dietrich Bonehofer. I mean, on and on. There's so many... Oh, the one I just read recently was The Choice by Edith Egger. Holy guacamole. She addresses this early on of like the people in Hungary. She was a teenager and she got put in Auschwitz. In Hungary, people... There was some...

There was some like whistleblowers. There was some conspiracy theorists, but guess what? They weren't, they weren't theorists because a few days later it was the conspiracy was confirmed. But they said the response even from her own parents was like, no, that couldn't happen. It won't get that bad. People are nervous. You know, there's some rumors we'll just hunker down and this will pass over. And it was like the next day or that night they did a raid and took their family.

and her mom and dad died, and I think one of her sisters, maybe, I can't remember, she ended up surviving and getting out of Auschwitz. But early on, when there was little restrictions put in place, little things like that, people were dismissive. And so it's interesting to say, well, wait a minute, if, and again, I'm not saying that what we're doing will lead to Holocaust. What I am saying is, if we are tolerant of small restrictions, where could that lead?

And so we have to ask, I really want to get into this. When you read the books, when you talk about, when you look at the past, you have to say, is this happening in our day? Or could this happen in our day or in our lifetime? Could this happen in our country? Sometimes - And being willing to consider those ideas actually makes you a safer, a wiser, a more capable person.

Rachel Denning (34:59.31)
who has a broader understanding and is able to decide more clearly what course of action you need to take now and should encourage others to take. So it's a good thing to consider these ideas instead of seeing it as a bad thing of like, well, you're just crazy or you're just, that's just a conspiracy theory. Or in fact, no, I have to add this point because I think, I know for me, I have this.

fear of conspiracy theories. I just think that that's weird. I just think it's...

awkward and you know just like... We've had some dizzy conversations with people. So like I've heard the conspiracy theories and my first reaction as many people's which is normal is to like shut down and be like this person is just kind of crazy right with their conspiracy theories but we also need to realize that it's somewhat ignorant of us as individuals to believe that conspiracies don't actually exist.

Throughout all of history, there have been conspiracies that have taken place. I'm stealing your thunder, babe. You are my thunder. Well, let me say this real quick. I was going exactly there and you can try again. So sometimes having national pride thinking that'll never happen in my nation. Sometimes national pride can make us blind, believing that it could never happen in our country. Sometimes personal pride makes us believe that it can never actually happen to me. Right?

And it's particularly insightful to read books about, well, gosh, this is a whole nother thing, about specific time periods and turnings. You have to read the fourth turning. Do you even understand this principle right here? About specific turnings that align up with your time. So right now, according to the book, The Fourth Turning, we are in a fourth turning. And in the 30s, they were in a fourth turning leading up to a crisis. And the crisis is always different. Well, and the crisis of...

Rachel Denning (37:04.974)
that time, obviously, was the Holocaust. So let me come back to it. So, yes. So history repeats itself and has patterns. And so if you study enough to actually realize that fact, then be able to study enough to identify the periods and patterns and then be able to connect them and compare them. And so then you start to realize, wait a minute, like at some point, the conspiracy theories,

become conspiracies. And like Rachel was saying, I mean, look, study history. Like, oh, you have, you don't have to read very far or very much to realize that there have almost always in every government, always like government leaders, politics, societies, there's always been conspiracies, actual conspiracy for people to take power and do selfish things and control others. And like it's always existed. So it would be unbelievably naive.

for any of us to think that could never happen. There are no conspiracies happening in the world today with 8 billion people. No, none. No conspiracies. Or even in our country or in our society. Like, that would be really naive. And so, you know, one of those patterns is to realize that really intelligent, you don't have to be dumb to be a conspirator or to take over. Really intelligent, sometimes really good people can make really bad decisions.

Right? Sometimes people do things with ulterior motives. Sometimes selfish, even destructive motives. Monetary motives. There are countless examples of businesses, churches, organizations, and nations that have been brought down by such people. If you want to read the book called, How Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton Christensen. Really great book. And he talks about these really good, intelligent people, like made...

bad decisions that brought down major organizations and destroyed their lives, right? So again, it's shockingly naive to believe that leaders always have your best interest in mind.

Rachel Denning (39:19.118)
You need to meet more people and read more books. So, OK, just to bring this back, because in many of the comments, first of all, a lot of the comments were directly about the specific.

discussions that are happening right now about COVID, about vaccines, about...

death rates, all that stuff. And what we're trying to say is that that's not really the issue we're concerned with right now. That's not really the discussion we're trying to have. Like, Greg didn't share a post like that because he's trying to point fingers at a certain group of people.

What we're trying to do is to help us all, first of all, take an individual, what's the word you used? Assessment, evaluation, reflection. Assessment, evaluation, and individual reflection of ourselves. Because there's nothing wrong with asking the question, what would I have done in times like that? Because I think we are living in times like that.

We are living in times that are.

Rachel Denning (40:39.566)
controversial.

Now these controversies, I think we are all aware, they're not just gonna necessarily disappear. They're not just gonna dissipate on their own. The divisiveness, the division that's happening.

is increasing. I think all of us can feel that. We can sense that.

and it's not likely to just go away. And in fact, going back to our theme here, if you study history, usually the divisiveness leads to some sort of conflict, or leads to some sort of revolution, or leads to some sort of intense event that is then that resettles things, or restructures things.

So the pattern is not that this is going to a good place. Right? The pattern is that this is leading to something even uglier. Now that's not, we're trying to be doom and gloom here. We are positive people. We are looking for the good. But as we see increased...

Rachel Denning (42:01.742)
Contention. One. And control. Control.

And... Chaos. Fear. Chaos. Fear. Okay. So like when Greg and I were talking about this...

and relating it to our own personal lives. Because we used this meme as a point of personal reflection. And one of the points where I reflected was in my own fears. I am afraid to have conversations with certain people, even in my own family, because they have different political views than I do. In my mind, that's not a good thing. And I know that...

Family members are also afraid to talk to me. And friends are afraid to talk to me because they view me as having different political views than they do. Sometimes erroneously. Sometimes they erroneously think I have a certain political view that I don't. Or vice versa. I'm not bringing this up because they believe that when really you don't know. So just that simple fact. And I know I'm not the only one. The fact that we're afraid to share how we really feel or to speak to certain people or to share a meme on.

on Facebook, that's not a sign that society is in a healthy place that's moving in a positive direction. I think ultimately for me that's what this is about. That's why we're having this conversation right now. That's why we're having this talk on a podcast about a meme that we shared on Facebook. It almost proves the point. It almost proves the point. Things are so charged that...

Rachel Denning (43:47.438)
The automatic response for many people is to justify their position and to prove to others why they should think the way they do. But that's not what's gonna solve these problems. So one of the other things I was thinking about is the ancient epic poem Beowulf. It's basically about the story of this guy, he's a little king in Denmark or whatever and he has a castle.

But there's this monster, Grendel, that keeps coming to kill his knights and all the protectorates in his castle. And this is a big problem because Grendel keeps coming and showing up and killing people. And obviously they want to stop this. They want to put an end to this. So they get Beowulf to come to fight this monster. Well, he fights him with his bare hands. He rips off an arm. And then Grendel crawls away to the swamp to die. Well, the only problem was...

Grendel had a mother and she was not happy about her son being killed. So then Grendel came back to get revenge. Now the only way that I'm telling the story because his mother came back to get revenge. Sorry, Grendel's mother came back to get revenge. Thank you. The only way I'm telling the story, the only reason I'm telling the story is because killing Grendel, solving that problem didn't solve the problem. There was a bigger problem. There was the birth of the problem that was actually the real problem.

And in order for it to be resolved and for the problem to finally go away, Beowulf had to go to the swamp, dig down, swim down to the bottom of the swamp, and kill the monster that lived there.

This is what we're talking about. So when Greg's referring to the profundity of this meme that he thought was more than, you know, what it seemed to be.

Rachel Denning (45:40.27)
that's kind of where we're going. We're saying this is maybe getting closer to the bottom of the swamp. There's a problem that's not the problem. COVID's the problem, but it's not the real problem. There's something bigger than that. There's something beyond that that needs to be addressed. And when we can address that, then we can actually solve the problems. But because we're so focused on statistics and facts and, you know, the safe and proven safe and effectiveness of a vaccine and...

this and that and the other, we're so caught up in trying to deal with Grendel that we don't realize he has a mother. And until we, this sounds terrible now, my analogy, until we kill the mother, we're not actually solving the problem. So. But you have to, this is interesting. I would say it's both individual and perhaps social.

that you have to dive into the swamp. You have to face like, exactly, was it Jung that talked about the abyss? Yes. You have to face the darkness. The shadow. You have to step back, you have to get in the shadow. And are you willing to share what you tell me like asking yourself what would I have done? Yes. See, and this didn't, this didn't, Greg and I talked about this because of the meme and all the comments and everything, but I've already been thinking about this. And in fact, I thought.

Well, I'll share that in a second, but I've been thinking about this. My natural inclination is to protect my family and my children. So if I'm asked to do something that might...

Rachel Denning (47:21.614)
If I'm asked to give up some freedoms that will ultimately protect my family, yeah, I'm probably going to be more willing to do that because...

It keeps me safe. I don't want to speak out. I don't want to be noticed as different. I don't want to...

make a scene per se. Raise your voice. Raise my voice. You can take a standard position because you're like, oh geez. I don't want to take a standard position either way because I want to be safe and secure. I want to be protected. I want to be, I want to live my life. I just want to live my life. Just let me live my life. You don't cry with life man, just stop. Okay. That's what I want. So my natural inclination is to comply just so I can go along, just so I can be, you know,

Not noticed, so to say. Even if I believe differently. And yet... And yet... That's... I know... That's dangerous. Why?

because if you go along to get along, sometimes where you end up is not where you want to be. And so that becomes going along to get along becomes a droplet. It becomes a rivulet that often leads to something ugly. And it's like that really famous quote that I think is more and more.

Rachel Denning (48:44.11)
truth from profound that the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Now because we make these statements you're automatically assuming we're on one side of the other. That if we go along and we and we you know we're making people well okay whatever. Look you don't have to assume I'm going to tell you what my position is. Hold on though it's not about that though. It's not about what position you have. If you believe that the vaccine is the right thing and everyone needs to be vaccinated.

You can have that belief and there's nothing wrong with that. Keep listening though, I'm going to talk about the vaccine. But if on one side or the other we say this is how it has to be done and we're going to force people to do that, you need to realize there's consequences for that. Because the people who hold opposing views to do to you and to your beliefs do so for a reason and with a strong conviction. So when we step back at the bigger picture and we realize...

that not allowing people, yes, if there's a point we're making, it's the point that there needs to be fewer restrictions than more restrictions on freedom. Because it leads to certain outcomes. That's just proven historically. I don't know that that can be denied in any way by anyone who has any sort of education. Restriction on freedom generally leads to certain outcomes that are...

Ultimately, over time, you know, this might be 10 years, this might be 20 years. 20 years down the road, there might be an outcome caused by or contributed to by today's restrictions on freedom, right? And we get there and go, oh man, I never saw this coming and I did not want this. Right. Can I address the other side of that? Yeah. The other side of that is when we have total freedom, we have to put up with some crap. People make dumb decisions.

and they say and spread dumb things and there's misinformation all over the place. Like there are consequences for total freedom too. And we get that. Well, which one do you want? Where does it play out? Like if we're going to have total freedom, you're going to have to tolerate some idiot, the synchro sees of people. It goes both ways. It to me so that I can be free to be my best and make a positive difference in the world.

Rachel Denning (51:11.598)
Yes, it absolutely goes both ways and ultimately freedom comes between having a balance between chaos and order. You don't want too much chaos. You don't want too much freedom as though anyone can do anything at any time. That would mean no speed limits and you know you could just go out and shoot someone and you know there has to be some restriction in place. I get that. And maybe some people would say this is one of those restrictions. Maybe.

But going too far, you go to the opposite order where everything is controlled, like in North Korea, and the government tells you what to think and how to think, well, not how, what to think, they tell you what to think, you know, what you can believe, what you can say. Even altering your vocabulary. Yeah. So that certain words don't exist. There is a biography out there right now you should read about a woman who escaped from North Korea.

She's like we didn't have words for love. We didn't have words for freedom. We did not have words for You know any of these things that we take for granted because we have freedom They didn't even have that as a part of their vocabulary, and she said it started in my grandparents lifetime and Evolved to the state it is in today, North Korea is completely totalitarian

from her grandparents lifetime until hers when she had to escape North Korea because she was starving to death and was sold into sex slavery. That's how quickly it happened. Which you know she's probably in her 30s so that's in our grandparents lifetime and what's interesting is what happened in the Gulag over in Russia for decades happened during my mother's lifetime and she's still alive you guys.

This just blows my mind that this was happening in my mom's lifetime. And yet we sit here sometimes and think that could never happen. No one would do that. That's so dark. How could that even possibly be? And yet it's a, it's a reality. And you read things like Animal Farm and 1984 from George Erwell. And if you haven't read those, please read them. If you haven't read them in a while, please reread them. Cause there's so much that's relevant there.

Rachel Denning (53:28.206)
to these subtle little changes and these little, I mean, you hear these speeches sometimes from leaders or politicians or people online just parroting stuff, and you're like, did they go looking for those speeches from history, from totalitarian regimes? I mean, did they read 1984 to look for their speech -like content? Like, you gotta be kidding me. They're using words and phrases right out of the manual of, that doesn't exist, but the, the,

the theoretical manual of totalitarianism. It's crazy. And we've got to see that and understand it. And that's all we're doing. We're not here trying to convince you that the US is on a course for totalitarianism, right? Like, that's not our message. But what we are trying to do is simply invite reflection and question asking. That's what we want to do. For us to...

even think about those possibilities is one way to help us prevent them from happening, right? For us to look at history and realize that it's happened and this is what it looked like, and then to say, hmm, are there comparisons today? Like, those are healthy things to do. They're not weird conspiracy theory, right -winged activities. Those are like educated, self -reflective, and...

well -rounded, wide, broad ideas and activities to be doing.

Rachel Denning (55:06.318)
is really interesting right because some people who saw this meme were just immediately dismissive like okay how could you how could you possibly I think asinine was used stupid incomprehensible lots of words were used to describe it and yet there's so much depth here and complexity and so much to be comprehended and it wasn't we can't jump like in the in the

phantom toll booth he talks about jumping to the island of conclusions so you could see something like that immediately jump to the Holocaust what it means and and you're right comparing our day to the Holocaust is stupid but that wasn't that wasn't what was there right it's all of this and more and and I would like to I want to share some of my positions in in an effort to be open

transparent and not be afraid to share. So wait you're like trying to put into practice right now some of these things because I'm not so sure about this like this was supposed to be theoretical here right maybe. But the actual practice is I want I do I guess I'm willing to do it I want to share some thoughts if that will be I hope helpful in you and you know what you might completely disagree with me you might think I'm a total idiot.

And okay, then great, if you hear me out, it actually might strengthen your own position. Or what I hope you might consider as like, okay, interesting, maybe I didn't think about it that way or... Well, or the other thing is we actually love to be proven wrong. So first of all, we're very wary or hesitant to share something unless we have done an extensive amount of research about it. But from verifiable...

reputable sources, that's one thing. Second, if you can prove us wrong, like we want you to prove us wrong. We're not concerned with being right. We're concerned with discovering truth. So if you can show us a different way, we are more than happy to reconsider our position on pretty much any topic. So that's another thing is, I guess. Really our life philosophy is it's not about who's right, it's ultimately about what's right. Exactly.

Rachel Denning (57:31.054)
What's the right thing? And so in an effort to share some of the things we've learned and shed some light, we're not, I really try not to like in things like this specifically, I've been really cautious not to tell people what to think about it or I've been very cautious like, hey, you know, no, you should make this decision or you should do that. But boy, we respect other people's decisions. Myself and my family. Man, I've been adamant and fired up.

specifically about COVID and about the vaccine. And I want to share some of those ideas. If nothing else is like just, okay, interesting. That's what he believes, right? There's no, there's nothing like real solid here. I'm not trying to convince anybody. We haven't tried to convince anybody, but maybe it'll be helpful to share some of these ideas or perspective things we've thought about and things we've researched and why we have.

the current position we do, which like Rachel said, can change. Well, it has changed. Throughout COVID, it's changed. But I guess, I think it might be, just in an effort that it might be beneficial for some of you, I would like to share that position we have.

All right, we are back. I paused the recording because it's got a 60 minute limit. So I paused it and was letting it process. And Rachel, we had a half hour conversation and I in totalitarian style, I said, what you're not going to do is talk about the vaccine right now. OK, that doesn't fit in. So, yes, Greg would like to he gets asked all the time from people.

What his take is, how he came to his conclusions, right? Not just what his, they're not just asking Greg to tell him what to think. They're like, how did you come to your conclusions? So Greg would like to talk about that, but it's gonna have to be its own episode, because it's gonna be more information than we need or want to share here. Plus, it doesn't fit with the message of this podcast, which is essentially, we're trying to remind all of us that we need to always zoom out.

Rachel Denning (59:45.358)
back up and take a big picture perspective of what is going on. Because often the problems that are right in our face are not always the problems. They are a problem. And they are real problems. And they do need to be thought about and addressed. But they're not always the most important or the most long lasting problems, per se. And so with the reason why we're doing this post and the

this podcast in the first place was because of the meme that was shared. Where we were coming from, it was obviously coming through our own lens, and that lens was having studied a lot of World War II history, having recently just finished the Gulag, and you're going through 1984 right now, and you read the law by Bastiat, and we're doing all these other things, and so that's the lens we're viewing from, and one of the emphasis is...

was on individual responsibility, on individual reflection, on asking yourself hard questions about what am I doing to contribute to the problems in the world today, right? And that's a hard question to ask, but it's one of the most important questions if we want to bring about real change. It's not ultimately about trying to get other people to do what we think is the right thing that needs to be done. It's about asking ourselves how we can do the right thing.

Like that surprised me, shocked me. One, my awe and admiration and respect of, of Schultz and Nielsen when he was writing that, he, he had been in it for years and was deeply suffering and then was dying. He was dying in a Gulag, right? It was just like this labor camp and he's laying on this bed just in delirium and dying. And he says, it was this moment of reflection where he asked himself, he said, how did I contribute to this? I mean, he's been in these conscious.

These labor camps, right? He's suffering so much. He's being tortured. He's watching people die horrendously. He was innocent. He knew he was totally innocent. He'd seen all of it. And he's laying there, dying, asking himself, how did I contribute to this? Wow. What? It's so powerful. It's so amazing. So I guess our invitation is, and this is where it came from my heart, is like, okay, where, where do I stand? What would I do? What?

Rachel Denning (01:02:11.982)
What do I give into? What do I need to stand up for? Where do I need to be quiet? Where do I need to back down? Yeah. Where do I need to sit down and back down? And where do I need to stand up and fight back? And it all comes down to seeing the big picture and then taking individual responsibility and accountability for actions and doing things that genuinely, long -term perspective, make the world a better place.

Well, in short term perspective too, just try to be genuinely great people. So that, my friends, is our message. And that we love you, and we see you, we'll give you hugs, even if you think we're idiots. If you're like, you're a raving idiot, I'll be like, I love you, I hope you have a great day and a great life, and I'll give you a hug. And you might try to throw an elbow in there while I'm hugging you, and that's okay. And I'm sincere, I'm genuine.

I think it's a beautiful thing to totally disagree without being disagreeable and to have somebody say something that opposite of what you believe and you can hear that without animosity. And that is so perfect. I think that's a perfect ending here because that is one of the definitions of freedom. To be able to have the right to say something that other people disagree with. Sweet.

Okay, love you guys. Reach out for it.