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Rachel Denning (00:01.55)
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. Today's gonna be a doozy. I think you say that like every time. That's because I mean it every time. But we're gonna talk about teenage rebellion. And restaurant parenting. And restaurant parenting. That's what I'm naming it. It's my new name. And ultimately talking about like, what is it you really want? Like what's the purpose of your parenting? And hopefully this will be really insightful.

For you and for us we're just gonna have a discussion here. Like wait a minute. What why are you doing? What you're doing? What are you hoping to get out of it? What sort of outcomes right and and we're gonna we're gonna kind of dive into why Why some parenting was the best of intentions and even some decent tactics? Ultimately doesn't work and it kind of flops now again, we we fully realize That every situation is unique and every kid is unique

But we also think there are some common denominators. Well, and every parent is unique with a unique background and a unique history. And you're bringing a lot to the table. And obviously, the father and mother and then the child. So there's a lot that goes into parenting. This is complex. Not one size fits all. We know that. But we do want to talk about a couple different things regarding this.

One is related to some questions we received a few months ago about teenage rebellion and if it is healthy, if it's normal, if rebellion stems from unmet needs, which we definitely say yes. And then also this idea of what I'm calling restaurant parenting, which simply means parenting that's kind of for show or display, where your kids can behave well and they can act appropriately in the right situations.

But at home, everybody's screaming, yelling, fighting, you know, and you're not, it's incongruent. It's not matching up. The outer behavior, the outside behavior, the away from home behavior is different than the home behavior. And our approach - Or even the inner life. Or that too. Because you can have forced compliance and you can get your kids to do tricks for treats, right? Exactly.

Rachel Denning (02:26.894)
But our approach has always been to be congruent. And in fact, that's the approach we take in almost everything we do in life is to seek congruence. And that means the inner life and the outer life match up as much as possible. Of course, we're not completely congruent all the time, but that's the goal. We're working towards congruence in all areas of our life, and that includes the parenting. And so when we're looking for congruence, that means our behavior at home is going to match up with our behavior when you're

when we're out, when we're traveling, or when we are at a restaurant, or when we are in different places. But depending on what's socially acceptable, the behavior that we have at home, even though it's good behavior and maybe much better than other people's behavior at home,

it may not be up to standards for, say, being in a restaurant, at least to some people's standards, right? Because everyone has different expectations. And depending on the restaurant, absolutely. A restaurant is kid -friendly and then another one's like, people don't bring kids here. Right, exactly. For a reason. Yes. And so there's all different levels of what's acceptable and what's OK. But the point is to have a sort of congruence so that when you're at home and when you're out, there's a minimum standard of acceptable behavior that's set pretty high.

And so, well, and how does that tie into long -term teenage rebellion? Well, and then and then high functioning adults like this phenomenal adults. And for me, like you touched on standard there for me, it really comes back to a standard, so to speak, of of what you're going after and why like what what is your standard and what is what is your goal? What's the ultimate outcome? And you've heard Rachel and me talk about this like our whole.

parenting philosophy has really been built on the kind of adults we want our children to be and not just that but the kind of Relationships we want to have with our adult children. Yes Yes, right. Yeah, and yeah, that's exactly in my mind. I'm like I want to be I think we are Best friends with our kids and I want to continue to be best friends with our kids and then their spouse and their kids I want this amazing relationship with them now don't don't

Rachel Denning (04:45.166)
I don't want you to be misunderstanding think and think that we're we're trying so hard to be our kids friends that we're not being their parents. That is not the case. Like we're parenting, we're mentoring, but we want to have the quality of relationship that like we love being together and making memories together and doing that. And we're not going to sacrifice high standards of behavior and achievement and happiness in order to like force it or

you know, drop other things to get it. So there's a basis here of like, what is it you really want? I think one of the dangers I've observed is that, well, there's a few, but one of them is that we try to force our kids to do something outside of the home or in general because we're so afraid of what other people think. And we're so...

concerned about people seeing us how they view us as parents, right? That's a good one. Well, and I know this, I mean, of course I've experienced this and I remember experiencing this in an amplified way when we started traveling with our kids because I started to feel... Your parenting is on display. Yeah, your parenting becomes on display and I started to feel like I had no refuge.

because my parenting before had been very much divided. I would take my kids out, I would make sure that they would behave, and then when we went home, I would kind of like, bleh, now I could vomit all over them because it was so stressful and hard to make them behave in public, right? And so now I'm home and I can vomit. I don't know how else to explain it, right? You're just like, you let it all out. And I started to realize as we were traveling that...

I didn't have that opportunity anymore. Like I was out and I was being seen almost all the time. And so I started to realize that I needed to have this congruence of my own behavior, my own parenting, so that it matched up when I was out and when I was not out, which was becoming less and less because you know, you're at a hotel or you're at a restaurant or you're...

Rachel Denning (07:08.078)
You know, you're just out more when you're traveling. And so there's less of that private behind closed doors type parenting that occurs. And that started to become so much the norm that that, I mean, that just became the way we did parenting. It was, we're going to be congruent. We're not going to, you know, yell and scream at our kids. And then when someone knocks on the door, put on the happy face, like, we're going to be congruent. We're going to have our, our public behavior be.

equal to our private behavior as much as possible. And meaning it's a genuine private behavior is built on a high standard. Right. It's built for lack of a better way to explain it. It's as though someone is in our house all the time watching us. It's the same behavior. But not for that motive. I guess I don't want to say that. Right. It's a way of explaining it, but not for the motive. Right. But we're not motivated.

We're not motivated to raise great kids so that other people look at us and think, oh, they're great parents. We're not doing it to get approval outside approval. We're not doing that. But it's what that experience kind of revealed to us of like, hey, wait a minute, are we living a double standard? So that's a question I want to kind of pass on. Do you have a double standard of behavior? And obviously there's certain situations where yelling and screaming and wrestling is OK.

And as there aren't, that doesn't mean you have double standard. But do you tolerate unacceptable behavior sometimes and then not at other times because for whatever reason, whether you don't want people to see it or whatever, but it's really valuable to ask yourself, do you have a double standard? And can you establish a clear standard across the board? Public, private, at home, out and about.

Like what's acceptable and then how do you do it and at what cost and when should you not do it? And kind of just getting clear about what you're doing and why. But should we tell the story that kind of brought this all about and what happened? Yeah, and also then we went to a Japanese restaurant after that and then tied that directly into the rebellion question. Yes. Maybe...

Rachel Denning (09:33.358)
Should we read the rebellion questions now? That's kind of a little teaser of what we're leading to and then we'll tell the story. Okay, so we got these really great questions and it says, my thought process and research has led me to conclude that rebellion of basically any kind stems from needs that are not being met, whether it's healthy or unhealthy.

It could be a need for identity and purpose, a need for love and valuable relationships, among other things. Would you agree? Absolutely. And we're going to go into that. Why? That's the case. But I would absolutely agree with that. And then are there other needs that are commonly not met that are likely to lead to rebellion? We're going to talk about that. And what are the differences between healthy and unhealthy rebellion, along with do you consider some kind of rebellion necessary?

in a person's life. And you think there are other contributing factors to teenage rebellion. So this is going to tie in very well to what we're going to talk about. But we need to clarify this. If you get one message from this podcast, I would say it would be this. The time to think about teenage rebellion is not when you have teenagers. Amen. At that point, it may be too late. OK. And.

This is why we're having this message. The time to think about teenage rebellion is when your baby is born and when you are teaching them and training them and raising them and guiding them and mentoring them while they are very small. Okay, now, yes, amen, amen. But those of you who have teens, don't be like, oh no, all is lost. All is lost, sorry. Too bad for you, no. Too bad.

There's still tons you can do. There is a lot you can do. Total recovery that can come and you can make major transformations. But one of the main points we want to make here is, and we've made it in other contexts, but it's true here as well, life is lived on a delay. So the things we do now will show up in the next few weeks or months or years. And what's showing up in our lives right now is what we did a few days ago, a few weeks ago, a few months ago, or a few years ago. Seeds that you planted. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (11:48.333)
And it's just, man, it's so powerful and valuable to just constantly remember that. Like, life is lived in a delay and it will show up. Don't think it won't. So what I meant with that statement is, again, you're right. It's not that there's no hope if you have teenagers, but the behavior you are seeing now from your teenagers was planted even from the time they were very small and when they were five and 10 and 12. Absolutely. And...

On the other side of that, if you have small children or still have small children, what you are doing now is planting the seeds of future teenage rebellion or not. Yes. So like let that sink in right now. What you're doing with your littles is determining how your littles will be as teens. You are literally crafting the years and the experience when those littles become teens. So right now what Rachel and I are doing are

is literally designing and creating the experience we're going to have. Designing and creating our children. But it's not 100 % of course. We have three littles and what we're doing now with them and we have four teenagers. So what we did with the teens is now playing out and when they were little now what we're doing with our littles will play out when they're teens and you guys this carries into when your kids become adults and when they have kids and how they raise their kids like this stuff is generational and huge. Okay so let's go back now to

So restaurant parenting. Yes. And so part of this is that we have traveled to 38. I've traveled to 38 countries. Greg's been to like 48 countries with our children on five continents. And we have been in a lot of different situations and for the most part have pretty much handled every situation we've come across.

I mean, I don't feel like there's any situation that got the better of us in the end. Agreed. And there's been doozies, trust me. Stuff that would make you crap your pants. I literally did crap my pants one time in Mexico. Okay. So like these are the kind of situations we've had to deal with. Not to mention our children having...

Rachel Denning (14:00.429)
messes and vomiting and like everything you can think anything you can think of. When you go out and travel long term through all kinds of lands and cultures and places you're bound to have this plethora of experiences that is going to test you in every way shape and form. Yes. And what it forced us to become thoughtful. And more competent. Yeah. Now that being said I've also realized I've discovered more of my likes and dislikes.

dislikes my preferences and my there's a difference between capability and preference you could be capable to do something and it would still not be your preference to do it so recently I had the I gotta jump in real quick just one of those things when people don't like us in I know sorry like just going out and traveling won't make you a better parent by the way we don't want to share that message like it it forces you if you are open to it all experience does

If you are open to it and thoughtful about it, it can offer you the opportunity to become way more intentional and deliberate. And that's what we're saying there. We've become, by choice, far more deliberate and intentional. We've met traveling families that are not intentional or deliberate, and we haven't seen much improvement in their parenting skills. But it's offering you an opportunity. Life is that opportunity. And every experience, every exposure is an opportunity. Like, hey, are you going to learn from this and level up?

or you're just going to keep doing the same old thing hoping for different results. So traveling, but life in general, provide the opportunity for you to be aware of your deficiencies and your weaknesses. And then if you're intentional, you can change those and improve them. So back to my story is we recently had the opportunity or potential offer, well, actually we actually ended up doing it, of taking our kids to a restaurant with other family members.

And my first response originally when we were making the plan or having the discussion was, well, I don't really want to take my kids to a restaurant because I have traveled to lots of places and I've taken my kids to plenty of restaurants. And my preference for going to a restaurant is to go as adults so you can have conversations, so you can have, you know, expensive food that you enjoy, that your kids take for granted, right?

Rachel Denning (16:25.357)
That's my preference for going to a restaurant. And we got to put that in context. We love going to restaurants. Yes. Rachel and I, we've literally traveled sometimes just for food. We've taken trips to go just to go to restaurants. We love going to restaurants and having that experience and having meaningful, thoughtful conversations and enjoying the food without having to worry about what our kids might be doing. Are my kids, again, because...

congruence, but table behavior at our home, intentionally, is a little more lax because we're okay with just being together and that's sometimes messy and noisy. Well, here's why though. I guess this is the introduction here. Because fundamentally our philosophy is allow your children to act their age. Now, some of you might disagree with that, but like here's out here for a little bit. We...

And again, I've been working with youth and families for over two decades and we've been raising our kids. I just wholeheartedly believe that if you meet the needs like we're going to address later and you build the relationship and you work with children, they will naturally change their behavior as they mature. There's this beautiful process that happens. I have no problem allowing a five year old to act like a five year old because I know when they turn six,

They're not going to do that anymore. And we've seen it with every one of our kids. Or seven or eight. They just naturally change as they grow and they mature and they discover things. And because we've studied so intensely studied the physiological development and childhood development, all those things since before we had kids. Child psychology. Even before we were married, I was studying this stuff. And as you understand that, you're like, okay, that's going to take care of itself. I'm not going to fret about that. And I guess this is where it brings up some of the issues.

And part of the reason why we do that is because when you allow your child to act their age, you're essentially saying to them, you're good enough. You don't have to be better than you are and you don't have to be better than you're capable of being in order to be loved and accepted by us. This is your age. This is your behavior. Now that doesn't mean you can't teach them.

Rachel Denning (18:46.701)
you know, certain things. They'll be like, oh, actually, you know, do this or do that or do that. And if they're physically and mentally capable of doing that, that's great. And it's not an excuse for really poor behavior. Which we're going to talk about. OK. And so there's no exemption there. Like, my child acts like an animal and I say, well, they're just four. Right. Aw, man. That's not it at all. It's saying, wait a minute. And as a healthy five -year -old or seven -year -old or 11 -year -old, that's...

That's pretty normal behavior and they'll grow out of that. That's okay. But think, I want, I want to drive this home with some absolute force and power here because I see it all the time. Think how crazy it is for us to expect a child to act older than they are. Like let that sink in for a minute. If I expect my seven year old to act like my 12 year old, like what am I thinking? They're not,

like physiologically in their brain development, they're actually incapable at some stages of doing things that are just above there. Like there's a certain stage, for example, there's a certain stage where little children literally cannot grasp abstract ideas. They can't, their brain cannot do it. And so for us to expect them to do it or try to demand it of them, it's, that's total, it's neurosis. It's crazy.

And then it makes them feel so bad. It creates resentment, all these other problems we're going to get into. And this goes back to kind of what I was saying before that when we don't allow them to be who they are, I think ultimately all that does is plant the seeds of feelings of unworthiness or feelings of not being good enough or feelings that mom and dad are not ever satisfied with me or my behavior that then later turn into teenage rebellion and into adulthood. These...

grown men and women who have these trapped emotions of unworthiness, of not being enough. It starts there and we think it's not connected, but it is. It really is connected. And so our approach along with this idea of allowing children to act their age is that when you treat them with respect,

Rachel Denning (21:12.141)
at the age that they are and the maturity level they are, because sometimes age and maturity level are not exactly the same. I mean, we've had, we have a seven year old that sometimes is more mature than, you know, a 12 year old or whatever. Like they're all, they all can be at different levels of maturity and in different things, be at different levels of maturity, their understanding, their ability to hold still, different things like that.

which gets into some complexities. You might have some high expectations in one area where they're more competent and you have to lower your expectation other areas where they're still immature with the exact same child. Right. So it gets very complex, but when you come from that place of acceptance and expecting healthy behavior, we're not talking about unhealthy behavior here, that allows them to be themselves. And that is a healthy place. And when,

you have that as a basis for your relationship with them, that grows into a healthy relationship with them as teenagers, which grows into a healthy relationship with them as adults. So that's a foundation.

Which is a big foundation. So significant. I'm not sure that I have the adequate words and infuse here to to let the importance of this settle in of what this means to youth and young adults and adults and how these kind of things play out sometimes for decades or even lifetimes or generation where if something happens,

and they create some resentment or some feelings of frustration and pain. You guys that can carry on for years. And I get to work on this every day with youth and adults and process these things that were happening when they were children. It just, you have to like wrap your head around what it means, the significance of it all and the impact of it all and how important it is to see it.

Rachel Denning (23:15.245)
as it is and make sure you have a clear perspective and perception. Right now. So so that we're clear here, like we we suck this up pretty bad when we were first parents. And I think when I talk to people about it's always the first kid, the oldest kid gets the worst of it. I feel so bad because you get a little child and you're just so into them and they start developing and they're like, they're so big. They say words.

And they walk, oh my gosh, now they're saying sentences? This is amazing, they're so grown up. And then you have another baby and you're like, look at this little baby, it's so incapable. And you, you oldest child, you should be able to do so much more around here. You should be carrying your load. And you forget to stop and be like, wait a minute, she's three, man.

He's using this story because I actually did this. Well, so did I. We just, it's, we, and I work with parents all the time and they're like, well, my oldest should be able to do this. I was like, bro, your oldest is eight, man. Like eight is really small. When, when your eight year old is 18, you'll look back and be like, you were so little and so cute. How was I expecting you to act like an 18 year old? Okay, keep on. So.

I don't know what other part of the story should I emphasize. I guess essentially we ended up going to restaurants a couple times. My children had behavior that I thought was acceptable. It wasn't, again, it wasn't amazing. It wasn't like my teenagers, my teenagers were great. They sat in their seat the whole time. They didn't get up. They didn't come walking over to me. They didn't, you know, they acted appropriately at a restaurant. Great. Because we're teaching them. They're ready for it. They're capable of it. My 11 year old.

Same thing he sat in his seat a couple times I had to give him a look of kind of like hey quiet down a little bit over there But sat in a seat age -appropriate behavior now my seven and five year old Yeah, they got up they came over. They said when's the food gonna be here they? Wiggle and squirm and wiggle and wiggle and squirm right kids were at one table adults were at the other table You know and then They were reaching across the table

Rachel Denning (25:34.509)
They were playing with cousins. You know, they were doing these things. At one awesome moment. I think this is an awesome moment. This was the best. So Sage right now is our seven year old and she has just gotten in because her siblings, her older siblings, you're taking gymnastics and she started gymnastics. So she's super into cartwheels right now. It's like the coolest thing ever. And she does cartwheels randomly all the time, wherever she's like, Oh, and can you see this picture in your mind walking along?

All of a sudden, and then bust out a cartwheel. Like that's the mind of a seven -year -old, like, oh, I should do a cartwheel. Right? It's just no rhyme or reason. So there's good tables for spread, and there was a big open spot, and nobody's walking in it. I literally can picture in my head what she was doing in her mind. She was walking from our table back to the other table, and there was a big open space with nobody in it. And she's like, oh, I should do a cartwheel. And so she did. And she did a cartwheel. And she did a cartwheel. And I was like, OK.

Well, I'm going to walk over and let her know that it's generally not a... We haven't told you this before. Because it's never come up. We never thought about it, but we want you to know that you shouldn't do cartwheels in restaurants, probably. And that right there, I mean, this may be a whole nother topic. That is the extent of, quote, discipline for a behavior like that. And others might think, oh my goodness, that needs... In our family, in our parenting.

That needs a spanking a timeout a scalding they need to get in trouble because you just did a cartwheel in a restaurant and all I had to do is walk over and say hey Sagers that was a really good cartwheel that was cool. Hey, so in restaurants Because people are moving and going and then it's nice place. Let's not do cartwheels anymore. She's like, okay And but the reality is that is it and unless she was because this happens unless she was angry at us

unless she was, well, mostly that, unless she was angry at us for some reason, like maybe we had already been mean and harsh about something and she was mad, that's really it. She won't do it again if we've said that. So that is it. There's no strain, there's no resentment, there's no hurt there, there's nothing to harm the relationship, I just taught her. And some people would look at, in fact I know this, people will look at some of our...

Rachel Denning (27:54.957)
parenting with our youngers and think we tolerate too much and that if we don't correct it and correct it hard the behavior won't correct itself and we're gonna have unruly teens and young adults and in some instances in some ways I'm gonna say my approach is the opposite is true. Right. I would act. I would say it's true. Yes, I would say that that's true and we've seen this play out already that I think when there's a little more laxness for behavior.

when they're smaller, it actually develops into better behavior when they're older, especially when it comes to rebellion. That when you allow them to act their age, when you allow them to be themselves, when you correct them and discipline them in generally kind, direct ways, that that allows them to develop naturally and mature in...

in the way they're going to mature, like they have their own already predetermined path for maturation, it helps them to have a better relationship with you, where they feel that they don't have to be afraid of you and they can trust you and they can, you know, listen to you and you're actually going to teach them things that they don't know and it's for their best interest. And that just moves along with them as they get older so that they look to you for guidance and answers.

Even as teenagers. Yeah, and they're totally open to it. Exactly. And accepting and embracing and like with our kids, really it's come down to like talking and explaining and that's really the extent of it. Well and another key piece to this too is and my oldest daughter now, she's mentioned this multiple times.

She's 19 and she said, you know mom, I've always appreciated that you allowed us to one, like say no, and two, to ask questions, to like ask why. So, and this is a rule, not a rule, it's just how it is that my kids know that if I ever ask them to do something, whatever it is, take out the garbage or put away their socks or not do something, they are allowed to say, well no or not right now or more specifically, why?

Rachel Denning (30:17.325)
And then we explain. And we talk about it. And I have told them, if I can't come up with a good enough reason that convinces you why you should do it, then you don't have to do it, I guess. Now, a lot of parents would say, well, that's just so much work. Like, I don't want to have to explain myself every time I ask them to take out the garbage because I don't have time for that. You're right. But guess what? If you explain it well enough once, that's really all about you have to do, all that you have to do.

Because then they know why and it's a bigger reason than just because, well, I said so. Well, we take out the garbage because we want to be neat and clean and if we leave the garbage in here, it's going to rot. And there's an explanation for everything in life. Even because the kid's going to be, well, why me? There's an explanation for that. And it does take more thought and it does take more intention and it does take more articulation. But in the end,

I have found hands down that plays out better in the long run than because I said so and because you need to be obedient to me and because you're going to get a spanking if you don't. That doesn't work as well in my experience because you're using your position of power to enforce your children to behave and obey. And I say simultaneously losing your influence. Exactly.

Because influences earned through respect and your children respect you when you respect them and treat them as human beings who are trying to learn about this journey of life and Are willing to take the time to explain things to them even why they should clean up their room or why they should do their math or why? Whatever and whatever it is the big picture of that is once they get it once they conceptualize it and you may have to repeat it

hundreds or thousands of time until like they're cognitively ready and they grasp it. But then after that, once they get it, you guys, you don't have to address it anymore. Exactly. It's a non -issue. And they choose on their of their own accord to do it themselves. That right there is the magic. Then they set up their own standard. Exactly. And you guys, this is this is across the board. OK, so one, we don't I've been thinking about toddlers and teens here as we're talking.

Rachel Denning (32:41.741)
They're really similar in a lot of instances. Tantrums... They're going through major developmental changes. Yes, exactly. Major changes. So tantrums in a toddler are like rebellion in a teenager. And we don't have tantrums and we don't... We haven't allowed tantrums. We don't have any. We don't have tantrums. And like... I literally cannot remember the last time we had a tantrum with any of our children. It was probably our first or second child.

Maybe that was the last time. So long ago. And again, you guys, and we're talking seven kids and five continents. This doesn't mean we don't have kids that cry or get upset about things that happens. I'm talking about a full on screaming, yelling, kicking, like emotional loss of control and just crazy behavior. The hidden screaming, biting. Does not happen. Rachel and I, we go whining nonstop whining. That does not happen. Right. And we were out at a restaurant, Rachel.

So Rachel and I go out every week and we take a kid out every week, which I think we need to bring up. Well that's the other thing too. Yes, we're both talking at the same time. This is how we do things around here. So yes, we both, we go out every week, Greg and I, and we take one child, or for the younger ones, two of them at a time, out on a date every week. So we are taking our kids to restaurants every week, but it's one on one, or two on, I guess two on one, or two on two.

focused, intentional, like it's a much more controlled situation where the purpose of being in the restaurant is to teach them restaurant behavior and we're there with that intention. Well, well the purpose is real connection and love and attention and they love it. Oh my goodness. They can't wait for their turn. They just love, children love individual attention. It is huge and taking them out to eat is also a teaching opportunity and they do so well.

That's the time to teach, right? So what I was bringing that up for, because we were in a Japanese restaurant the other day and we saw a couple come in with a young child and this sweet little girl was, she was about to lose it. And she was, you could tell that things were off. Well, and you could tell that mom was terrified that it was about to get very, very ugly. Which means it happens probably regularly and she knew what was coming. Right. And so,

Rachel Denning (35:08.685)
But I bring that up because I'm like that we don't have the tantrums and we don't have the rebellion. So this this has played out. We've been working on it with our kids and and we like you guys I like I can't remember the last time like I really had to discipline a child. Including our teenagers. Yeah. Like.

Well, especially with the teens, the little ones still do their little things. They get in their little squabbles, which again, it's still minimum because of our family culture and our dynamics, minimal. But with the teens, like none. Like none. I can't think of an instance. And they're awesome. And we're not saying that to boast or brag or to think, oh, we just had this exceptional, these kids just came.

from heaven and we're just along for the ride. Like we've been very, very intentional about the interactions and it's really built on no resentment, no forcing, no creating this wedge in your relationship. Sometimes with the best of intention of correcting behavior, all you do is harm your relationship. You go in there thinking, I'm going to teach this kid a lesson and all you do is drive this massive wedge.

that goes deep and gets buried in there sometimes for the rest of your life. I mean, I can't even tell you how often that comes up with parents who have grown kids. They're like, oh, we, you know, we still have this distance or my daughter won't talk to us or my son, he wants nothing to do with us. I'm like, yeah, you took that wedge and you kept slamming on it and slamming on it and slamming on it. And man, that sometimes that never ever gets healed. But.

But I guess that's part of the principle here and the purpose. Because there is a... What we're trying to emphasize here with restaurant behavior and teenage rebellion is that there is a very direct connection. If your focus is on the quote, restaurant behavior, meaning you force your children to comply to certain expectations, whether that is at home or it's out while you're out.

Rachel Denning (37:31.021)
or church or the neighbors or your in -laws or your parents or wherever. And we're not throwing out a standard. We're not advocating terrible behavior. We're actually advocating a high standard across the board. Yes. It's a standard that requires a lot more work. But if that's your focus, then ultimately, and we'll get into the teenager billing questions, ultimately that leads to...

rebellion because there are needs not being met, one of which is not acceptance of me as the age and maturity level that I am. As I was and as I am. And then you stack resentment on that. Right. Because it's inevitable. I mean, we all know this already, that when we come down harsh on our kids, when we yell at them, when we get after them in a negative...

way that makes us not feel good and makes them not feel good that there are those hard feelings there and unless they're dealt with, because we're not saying that's never happened with us, but when it does happen it's resolved, it's addressed, it's processed, it's the love is, you know, we go and restore that love and that good feeling between us because otherwise that resentment does just build upon itself so that when you're in the teenage years it's a catalyst for them to

Want to rebel. Yep. I can't, I can't think of a person I've ever met that doesn't abhor being forced to do something. Nobody likes to be controlled or coerced. We, we were born, I think in our evolutionary makeup and in our spiritual makeup, we were created to be free. And yes, that includes your toddlers.

Don't, I mean there's instances where you can catch them and keep them out on the road. You don't let them run in the road. I'm gonna raise free children. You provide an environment where they can run free because they will be safe. This was the other thing we were talking about with our kids, you know, and we still do this today. We have an environment where they're free to make all of their own choices. They can eat whatever they want, they can...

Rachel Denning (39:53.101)
watch what they want, they can read what they want because the environment is set up so that they have access only to the things that we are okay with them choosing. Now does that mean that like we're controlling and manipulative? No. We teach them also. We say, hey, you know guys, Skittles aren't great for you. And we keep them from eating Skittles by not buying them, right?

So when they go into the pantry, they can pick whatever they want to eat because everything there is a healthy choice, right? Does that make sense? Like if you want your kids to make healthy choices, you create an environment for them to choose healthy things. If you want them to make good choices with their, well, even like their devices. So we have a system in place that allows them to use.

devices appropriately until they get to a mature age where they're able to make their own better choices about it. So hopefully that provides a little bit of framework and makes a little bit of sense of what we're talking about is that by providing an environment or a framework or a system that allows them the freedom to choose while still knowing they're going to be safe with their choices, right? They're not going to run into the road because there's a fence per se. You're actually teaching them...

through experience how to make choices. How to be accountable for themselves. This is one of the things I love the most about parenting is allowing my kids to practice making decisions. Exactly. Oh, I love it. Yes. I love it because they get better and better at it and they love the sense of autonomy and independence. The more you can give your kids autonomy and independence or interdependence, they rise. You want to help your kids be mature? Give them chances to be mature. Exactly.

And man, they will rise to that. They just love it. And they get a sense of like, my parents, trust me, I'm doing this. I'm making choices. It's so empowering and so powerful. And you avoid all the pain and the hurt and the resentment that's there when you try to control or coerce or manipulate, get them to do little tricks, right? Anybody can get little kids to do a trick like you're training a dog or we always went to the...

Rachel Denning (42:13.453)
Aquarium and the seals or sea lions could do amazing things right, but it was there was always a fish right there They're holding a fish and you can hold fish in front of your kids So to speak and get them to do all these cool things when people are watching putting on his performance But when they choose to do it, oh That's the magic then it's awesome when you're not there with a treat right or a stick It's the carrot stick right if you're not there with care of the stick and the kid does it Wow, then you know, it's for real and so when you come back to the whole restaurant metaphor that I'm using here. Yeah

We want our kids to be able to go to restaurants. We want them to be able to sit quietly, to be patient. We want all of those things, but we're not going to expect them to do it before they're emotionally, mentally, physically mature enough to do it. And we're not going to force them to do it with a carrot or stick. Now sometimes there's a time and place for that. Occasionally, yep. But on the whole, you're trying to raise children that...

do those things because they choose to do those things because they've been guided, mentored, and trained to do those things and understand the reasons why. And if you understand it and they understand it and you hold to it, you're true to it, that's where the real power lies. And I think it's worth saying, you know, there was some instances where socially other people who are watching might expect you to do what they think you should do.

And again, if you've been thoughtful, intentional and deliberate about it, you can hold your ground and you ought to hold your ground. Now, I'm sensing some of you are going to be asking. You're sensing. No, because I'm just I'm saying your theme. I know some of you are going to be asking, well, my kids don't listen. They don't listen to me. And so I'm left to yell or spank or threaten because otherwise they won't listen. And I totally get it.

And I understand and actually yelling, you know why parents yell? Because it works. Well, because you get movement. It works in the moment. Right. It doesn't necessarily work long term to produce the results you want, but in the moment it gets a response. It does. And so that's why we do it and we do it again and again. But so does a threat. So does a bribe. All those things. They work momentarily. But what we're trying, I guess the main message here is what we're saying is like, keep that up.

Rachel Denning (44:37.997)
and the long -term effects will be negative. Exactly. And part of the reason that they don't listen is because like we always teach in our coaching, it comes down to training. You have trained them to not listen. Now, that just means you've got to change your tactics a little bit. Sometimes for me, that means I literally walk up to the child and I put my hand on their shoulder and I say, hey, can you look at me?

Can you hear me for a second? And I say what I'm going to say and then I say, did you understand that? When are you going to do it? You just have to change the tactics a bit. And yes, it requires more work from you. That's your job as a parent to work harder than your kids to help them develop into the best version of themselves. And fundamentally, this is one thing that's super important for me. Never stop earning.

your children's respect. Never stop this. Oh, you guys, I added this to my philosophy journal. I just geek out about this. Never stop trying to qualify for the position. And to me, what that means, and I hope you kind of grasp the idea there, I'm always trying to qualify as a world -class dad. And I'm always in a healthy way trying to earn

my kids respect by being a phenomenal human being. By being a respectable person. Yeah, be a respectable person and your kids will respect you and guess what? You'll have influence with them. And the way you maintain influence with your teenagers when they start looking sideways at you instead of looking up because they're no longer so little is you keep leveling up. You keep doing great things and they can't not respect and admire that. And then you have influence if you're doing it well. I mean you could do it in an unhealthy way and their kids are like, hey.

hate that they resent that even more. But if you're genuinely striving to be just an incredible person, your best self and you're leaning into that all time, they're looking over like, wow, look at my parents go. Of course I'm going to listen to them. They have results. But if your results are so uninspiring and underwhelming or boring or lame, then your kids are going to look over and be like, why am I going to listen to you?

Rachel Denning (47:05.261)
And that might be a hard pill to swallow, but that's the medicine that needs to be taken right there. Well, because the first step towards personal growth is often discomfort, and it's discomfort of who you are and where you are.

Rachel Denning (47:22.189)
who you are, where you are. So anyway, let's close up, finish up with the teenage rebellion and ultimately, yes. By finishing up, you mean a good 30 or 40 minutes. Let's not say that. Okay. Is there a need, are there needs not being met that lead to teenage rebellion? And I would say absolutely yes. And one of those, well, I mean,

It may be a little bit confusing, this idea of resentment, but ultimately resentment comes from a need that's not being met. Like you feel resentful for people or towards people because you feel that you're not being accepted or you feel that you're not being understood or heard. So that's... Validated. Exactly. So that's a need that's not being met, which leads to resentment.

And when you resent your parents, it makes it easy to rebel against them. Because you're like, meh, they don't care. They don't listen. They don't hear me. Like, screw them. They come up with arbitrary rules. They tell me I can or can't do things. And they don't tell me why. This whole because I said so, because I'm the parent crap, like that, oh, that's just trouble right there. Exactly. So there's a need for connection. Mm -hmm.

There's a need for significance. Well, right. So this goes into the next question. There's a need for autonomy. OK. I just want to clarify the question while you're doing this. Are there needs that are not commonly met and therefore are likely to lead to rebellion? Yes. So just what you were saying. Connection. What was the other one you said? You said autonomy. Independence, growth. Well, I'm just going through my mind now. What needs to be happening? Well, your kids need a sense of certainty.

Right? They need to know that they have some safety. They have, they could, cause let's say a kid comes in and they know what to expect, but what if they don't? What if you're all over the place? What if you're, you say yes one day and no the next day and you don't know why. And they don't understand why. They don't get it. What in the world? What is up? And sometimes you're happy and sometimes you're miserable. And they're like, you see how that leads to a lack of certainty there. If I got a parent and I have no idea what to expect one day for the next, that, that'll undo you.

Rachel Denning (49:49.933)
If you have no idea how your parents are going to respond or how they're going to wake up, that will undo you. That will undo most adults. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, imagine if your spouse is like that every single day. You're going to go crazy or your boss. It drives people crazy. They want to have certainty in their relationships. And so if you're not behaving in a certain predictable way for your children, they're going to feel uncertain. And so as teenagers, they're going to start rebelling against that because they're like, man, I'd... This is crazy. I'm out. This is crazy. I'm going to start making my own choices.

So I was going to say, so then another thing is what we were talking about before with autonomy is from the time they're young, you should be allowing them to practice making their own choices so that when they're adults, well, not when they're adults, when they're teenagers, before they become adults, they have already had lots of practice making their own choices. That's another thing with teenagers and not having rebellion in our family is that our

children are allowed to make their own choices. They get to decide where they're going, with who, when they'll be back. We don't wait up for them. We've never waited up for our teenagers. In fact, even since they were little, we've let them decide what time they go to bed. They decide what time they're going to bed. They still decide what time they're going to bed. Okay? Because we allow them to make the choices because we also allow them to deal with the consequences. If they don't go to bed until late and then they still have to get up in the morning, they have to deal with that consequence and they have to have a good attitude about it.

That's the one thing we do expect and enforce. You're going to make that choice, but you're also going to be pleasant about it and not be grumpy to the rest of us. I think we need to throw in here, we have a very, very hands -on parenting approach, you guys. So we're not just sending off our kids to school and like they're all day with who knows who. We don't know what teachers they're interacting with. We don't know what youth they're interacting with. We don't know. It's not like we don't know what kind of videos they're watching, what kind of music they're listening to, what kind of conversations we have. We know.

We know what's going on and we help them choose good input. So if your kids are gone most of the time and they're having way more interactions with other people you don't know and don't understand, and they have far more interactions with others than they do with you, then this won't work. This kind of hands off like, yeah, make your own decisions. Cause they're going to make decisions based on what they're hearing from their peers or what they're consuming. All this, like if their input's bad, they're going to have bad input. So it's got to be built on that. Input determines output.

Rachel Denning (52:13.677)
we're making sure our kids are constantly consuming great things that are reinforced with our conversations and our example. So there's a fundamental base there. That's a very critical point there, exactly. Because yes, we are their primary influence and we have been their primary influence. That was one of the benefits of traveling around the world with them is that we essentially lived in our own family culture bubble, right? And so we were able to have all kinds of conversations about...

topics like drugs and alcohol and sex and movies and you know all these different things because we were seeing it around the world and then talking about like well these are the choices people make and this is how they got here and these are the consequences for doing these things so we've had those ongoing conversations while at the same time saying yeah you get to choose you get to decide because if you do here's the likely consequences and if you choose this other thing those are the likely consequences so you pick.

What consequences do you want? And they understand that concept of every choice comes with consequences. And so they're not looking at the immediate gratification. They're looking at long term, what is this leading to? Which is night and day difference from what they get from peers, for example, where your peers might be like, hey, let's party. Let's do drugs. Let's drink. Let's try those stuff. Like, it's so fun. And we've taken our kids around the world and saying, hey, here's the end result of those choices. And real open, honest conversations where they see it and get it.

Well, right, which came to play exactly with your brother who just overdosed. So, you know, they get to see that. My uncle overdosed from drugs. Like, I'm not going there. I'm not doing that. That's not the outcome I want. We talk through that openly. Exactly. We don't hide that stuff. I wanted to hit another need. So we need this sense of certainty, right? But we also need a sense of uncertainty and adventure. Your kids need to be living a great story. Well, for the most part, your kid's story is going to be lived through your story.

Ultimately, especially when they're young. Yeah, when they're young they start creating their own story But but for the major part like their story is your story and if your story is boring Like it's it's lame. So a lot of kids act out your story is boring. It's like Well, but think about it like this teenager Scott full of life and adventure and they were like, okay What's possible here with life and I want to try all these things. Let's do this. Let's do this And they come with crazy ideas and you're like, uh, no

Rachel Denning (54:35.757)
Can't you just sit on the couch with us and do nothing? And if you're living a boring story, they're going to act out and in some ways rebel. Kids need to live an adventure and they need to have a challenge and they need to do things that are meaningful and purposeful and sometimes a little bit risky and a little bit crazy. Teens love risk. So why don't you lead out and help them take risks? I take risks with my teens all the time.

Sometimes I'm taking risks and they're like, oh, I don't know about that, Dad. I'm like, let's go, buddy. So if I'm leading out and living an adventurous, amazing story, they don't have to go seeking for that in some pseudo adventure or some false bogus story or trying something really stupid because they're so bored out of their minds. Which ultimately I think is what any type of addictive behavior is, is a pseudo adventure. Drugs, alcohol, sex, porn, all of that.

It's a pseudo adventure because life is boring. Even a screen addiction. Yeah, Instagram addiction. It's because your life is boring and it doesn't have enough excitement that you seek it in other ways. You're seeking some sort of excitement or dopamine hit in these other avenues. And that's exactly what is happening with teenagers. Teenagers are at this phase where they want to take on life. They want to be challenged.

And if they're not being challenged, rebellion is a form of challenge. It's just a natural consequence. Yeah. And so look, if your goals are impotent, if their goals are impotent, there's going to be problems. So that's another meat. Well, I mean, there's lots more, but let's keep going. So I think this actually ties in pretty well with then the question about are there differences between healthy and unhealthy rebellion? And I would say yes, because one form of unhealthy rebellion is risk taking, I think. Yeah, absolutely.

appropriate risk or breaking or breaking certain rules. There are dumb rules out there and we have taught and trained our children to break some rules like you know standing on picnic tables or...

Rachel Denning (56:47.373)
Climbing jumping off things that shouldn't be jumped off. Yeah, jumping off things. We have a pool next to our house. It's a community pool and our kids have snuck into it before when it's been closed. Right. And we are aware of this and OK with that because we find a healthy form of rule breaking. We went to the pyramids of Palenque. Right. And some of the pyramids were closed because of Covid, which really doesn't make any sense because there was nobody there. Nobody around. We had a couple of our teens who

climbed up the pyramids and got in a little bit of trouble for doing that. But it was a form of, in my mind, healthy rule breaking. Because, you know, you have to... First of all, I know some of you are listening like, how could you? How is this possible? Those of you who are like real rule keepers, like this stirs you up. Well, and this for us comes back to even something like civil disobedience by Thoreau because...

there is a time when you have to break rules. And so part of our training for our children includes us helping them be comfortable with breaking rules and not being so afraid to break rules that when the time comes that, you know, I don't know, it's happened in history. It's happened throughout history where you have to be on the wrong side of the law in order to fight against evil, say like Hitler, Germany. So this isn't, this isn't being.

immoral, so to speak, like doing something that is morally wrong, because we have emphasized from the get -go and still do massively, you have to have a moral compass. Exactly. Every one of us, our children, all do it, like you have to have a moral compass. So it's not about right or wrong, it's just realizing sometimes there are rules and even laws that are ridiculous or outright wrong. And there will be time, in fact, I'll go ahead and predict right now, there's a time coming in the near future where history is going to repeat itself and there will be laws in place.

that will need to be broken and civil disobedience will have to come back. And having traveled to 38 plus countries around the world, I mean, there's different laws in every country and you have the opportunity as an outsider to look and see actually that law is really stupid. Like where did that come up with that? And so you see that not all laws are created equal and they're just products of human imagination and sometimes they're not the best product. So,

Rachel Denning (59:08.813)
With that idea in mind, we've taught our children to be healthy rule breakers and to not be afraid of breaking some rules.

Alright, so essentially, and some of you might be like, that is so disrespectful. How could you, Dennings? And sometimes it is disrespectful. You're right. We believe, but we believe in respect. We live by respect. We live by this moral compass and serving and helping and being your best self. Literally being phenomenal human beings. But I wholeheartedly believe you can't, it doesn't take, you don't have to study history that much. I mean, just study a little bit of history and you will see there are times that you must.

go against social norms and expectations and rules and laws. Yeah, dumb rules and laws. There's a time to stand up. In fact, if you're going to be a great person, there's going to be times you got to fight back against. Which in essence is what I'm thinking of when I say, well, yeah, sometimes you have to be disrespectful in order to respect yourself. There are times when your behavior is going to come across to other people as disrespectful because you're respecting yourself.

Oh my goodness, that was good, babe. I wish I had a mic for you to drop. There are times you have to be disrespectful in order to respect yourself. That's good. Well, it's the idea of, you know, not being so agreeable. Agreeable, right. Because the five personality traits, one of them is agreeableness and people who are too agreeable generally get pushed over and walked over.

in life. So you have to have a certain amount of disagreeableness in order to have enough self -respect to not be walked over. And so that's kind of this idea behind the healthy rule breaking or the healthy rebellion is that you're being disagreeable just enough to stand up for yourself and not be in that you're not uncomfortable with breaking the rules. Because we've seen it in people where they're so

Rachel Denning (01:01:19.181)
worried about keeping all the rules and laws that like it just stresses them out to think about. And they get taken advantage of. Yeah. And they acquiesce to things. Standing up for themselves. They just, yeah, they just lay down and get pushed all over or they just force themselves in a box like, well, I can't, like I really want to, but I'm not going to. And, oh, I really believe this, but I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and conform. Right. And it's like, that's not living. And so the way we decide is if our kids come to us and they're like, hey, I want to do this thing.

and break this rule. They always do you guys. They come to us and tell us like, hey, we're going to break this rule. And in that moment, if I say, oh, no, you can't. No, that's terrible. Oh, you should be keeping the rules. If I have that attitude, that's what gets passed on. Because they're the ones with this calling to like, I've got to break this rule. Because that's essentially what it is. Like you feel this need of like, I've got to break this rule. And if you deny that need, talking about needs,

then you're developing the habit of being so agreeable, so orderly that you don't have the power within you when the time comes to stand up for yourself and to break the rules when you need to. Yes. And now, we've taught our kids this principle and lived it. So they're thoughtful about it. They're not breaking the rule merely to break the rule. They come usually like, hey, we want to do this thing. There's this, like,

It seems kind of dumb. It doesn't make sense. There's no sense. It's not going to hurt anyone. It's not going to be intentionally disrespectful to anyone. It's not immoral anyway. And so what I'll do is, OK, OK, let's talk through it. Are there risks? Are there risks too high? What are the possible consequences? Are you OK with those possible consequences? And I'll do it. You guys, I actually get giddy about this, like teaching my kids to think for themselves totally outside of the box and outside of norms. And this is part of it. Like,

To help your kids have some backbone and have some strength and to be able to make good choices, clear choices, think through things and be willing to go against the herd when the mindless herd is just conforming. The opposite of courage is conformity. You want your kids to be courageous. Man, I hope you do. You can't make them conform all the time. Yes. Man, you're killing it. Woo!

Rachel Denning (01:03:45.165)
You can't. Well, exactly. So when they come to you, this is how you teach them how to think. When they want to break some sort of rule or whatever, you help them think through that and allow them to decide on their own. That's how you teach them to think. Because otherwise, if they come to you and they're like, oh, I want to break this rule, and you're afraid of what other people will think or of them getting in trouble or you getting in trouble, and so you say no and you force them to conform to your beliefs,

You're not teaching them how to think and you're not teaching them how to make their own choices and how to deal with the consequences. And in all likelihood, if that's been your stance, they're not coming to you and letting you know what they're thinking. They're rebelling behind your back. Because you forced conformity and so they're doing stuff all the time behind your back that you don't know and the only time it comes out is when they get caught. Exactly. And then you get that call from the cops or from somebody else, oh crap my kid. And then you're reaching out for help but prevent this stuff man. By allowing them. Live with them.

to have healthy forms of rebellion. Because yes, I do believe in order to be fully functional, fully capable and competent, there has to be rebellion in your life. This is crazy talk. When was the last time you guys heard a presentation on parenting that says rebellion and rule breaking is a necessary piece, but I wholeheartedly believe it.

Because I'm thinking about it from an adult perspective. Many of us do things because we're afraid of going against social expectations. We go to college, we get a career, we go to a job every day, we go to the in -laws. We do all of these things because we're trying to do the right thing. We're trying to not rebel against expectations. But down to saying things that you don't actually believe or keeping quiet when you want to speak out or...

Joining little functions and going along with it when you're like this is so dumb Why do I do this and and you you you start to step away a little bit? I do this with a lot of my coaching clients because like we really have to lean into nonconformity right and and unconvinced living and when you do whenever you bring up any idea man your family's all over you the neighbors all your friends are like What are you thinking you're crazy and and you get this reaction? And what's the first thing you back right back down? I we're all living in this the crab bucket

Rachel Denning (01:06:09.549)
Mm -hmm where that you get pulled back down and and so we're like, okay, okay and then you pass it on to your kids because man You don't want your kids to embarrass you and wow, right? So and all that does is lead to your life being unfulfilled because you're not standing up for what you believe in what you want to do what you think is right for you and you pass that to your kids and it it displays itself and

plays itself out more with teenagers because they at least at that time in their life have the gumption to be a little bit rebellious or a lot rebellious. But unfortunately in those circumstances and situations because that's the unhealthy side of rebellion that often leads to regrettable consequences. And so our goal has always been to prevent that type of rebellion.

And by first of all having the relationship with them, having the autonomy where they're allowed to make their own choices from the time they're even young, so they practice making choices the whole way, having the freedom to ask questions and to receive real answers and discussions that help them think through processes, and then, you know, understanding that it's their life.

And they get to choose and they get to deal with consequences and they get to break some rules sometimes if they feel like they need to. And we get out and we have crazy adventures and extraordinary memories and we let them take big adventures and try things and so they feel fulfilled. And like they're doing things that light them up. Oh, that's good. Okay, what else is on here? That was actually pretty much it.

because we said, yeah, healthy and healthy rebellion, healthy and unhealthy. Do you consider some kind of rebellion necessary? Yes, we've talked about that. And then do you think are there contributing factors to teenage rebellion, which I think we've talked on. It's those things that we mentioned. It's those unfulfilled needs. It's the...

Rachel Denning (01:08:22.605)
confining, squelching environment and parenting style. That makes you rage and want to break out of it. Yeah, and we have all experienced that. We have all experienced the feeling of being controlled by someone and hating it. No one likes it. And so if that's how your children feel, if they feel that all you do is control them, yes, that will be contributing.

to teenage rebellion. And in many ways, I think that that's often what's happening with tantrums as well. And the other, you know, if you have children that don't listen, quote unquote, in some ways that's their way of, you know, having some sort of autonomy. Like, mom's always controlling me, so I'm going to not listen. So here's a fundamental principle we haven't shared yet in this episode at least that I think is an underlying powerhouse.

is that from the very get -go, we haven't made it this battle, so to speak, between us and them. It's not like you do what I say or, you know, doing this because I say so or... If you... If in any attempt you try to make it a power struggle, even if you win, you lose. Exactly. We've always said to our littles, and we say it to our kids all the time, this is kind of family philosophy, is that the kind of person you want to be? And it's not manipulative, it's not weird, it's like...

Hey, we're putting this back on you. Like this behavior we're inviting you to consider, it's the kind of person you want to be. It's not the kind of person I want you to be. After explaining to them what that means, consequences, outcomes, you know, at a level they can understand. It's not like we're explaining it beyond their. We're not talking about abstract things to a four year old, but even making it concrete. Even with a four year old, we would sit down and say, hey, do you?

Do you want to be like that? Do you want to be a mean person or do you want to be a nice person? And they know, it's like, it comes in our spiritual DNA. They want to be nice. They want to share. They want to do the right thing. And so we're just reinforcing that like, hey, this isn't a power struggle. This isn't me telling you to do what I want you to do. I'm asking you to consider if that's the kind of person you want to be and to make the choices all along the way that are congruent with the kind of person you want to be.

Rachel Denning (01:10:46.221)
Now as they get older, that gets deeper and deeper and broader. And then we have our teens now, they're like, oh no, we know what kind of men and women we want to be and our choices align with that. Exactly. Well, here's a simple example that happened just this morning. I think, um, my two girls got up, they're five and seven and they started playing Legos and you know, I was in their room, help, you know, we're doing our little morning routine and getting their room straightened up a bit. And they started,

arguing over some Lego pieces, you know, like, she has it and I want it, that kind of thing. Now, they were, I could see that they were getting, you know, you can tell the difference in your kids when they wake up and they feel happy and they're excited for the day and you know, they just kind of have this more peaceful aura, I don't know what else other word to use about them, you know, or if they kind of have this

grumpy, kind of angry. And they had started out with the peaceful side, but I could see it was going into the angry, mean thing. And I was like, okay, we're not going to let this happen. And I said a couple things, but they weren't really listening. So I did this little kind of on their cheek. It wasn't a smack, like smacking them. It was just getting their attention. She's tapping me as though you can see me. I know, but it's making a sound. Hopefully they can hear, right? I'm not, I'm differentiating that I didn't smack them on the face.

I got their attention and then I gave a little mom lecture and then I went out. But basically like, this isn't who you want to be. People don't like being around people who are mean and grumpy, right? And I went out. Well, I came back in like five minutes later and they were all sitting there nicely playing together and you could feel that it felt different.

The energy changed. The energy had changed. But here's where I didn't stop. I didn't stop there and be like, oh good, I'm such a good mom. That was amazing. I went over and I pointed it out and I said, oh, this is so much better. Do you feel this? Doesn't this feel better? Doesn't this feel good? Don't we want to have this kind of relationship with our siblings? Right? So you take those day to day moments and you use them to teach.

Rachel Denning (01:13:10.029)
how you want them to be and then they learn to recognize that and they see, yeah you're right, this feels different. This is how I want to be. And then over time, you have to keep pointing that out. I mean we had to do that with our teenagers for 60, 70 years. You just keep pointing it out. Right.

Yeah, we have to keep reminding ourselves as adults. This feels better and that doesn't feel good. I don't want to feel like that. I want to feel like this. Exactly. You're right. It's an ongoing process. We still do it as adults, but it's being, it's generating that awareness that helps us to have more capability to make better decisions for ourselves. And that's essentially what we're trying to do for our children. So that then they don't have the resentment, they don't have the anger, they don't.

feel that they're being controlled. I didn't, you know, put them in timeout. I didn't take away their Legos. I didn't, you know, spank them or threaten them. Or even bribe. If you guys would be nice, I'll give you candy. I'll buy you more Legos, you know. I focused on consequences and outcomes and that there's even a difference in how you feel. Which is important. That's relevant, right?

How you feel is there is actually a relevant consequence? It's not like I'm gonna take away your pony Because you're fighting over legos. It's like how does that how does that relate? Where did that come from? Yeah, so many consequences are so irrelevant and unconnected that creates rebellion I personally know lots of teens who are like I get so livid angry mad and want to rebel because the consequences are so arbitrary They just come out of nowhere and they get so

angry at their parents like they pull out a consequences way too big and it's unconnected and they're like this whoa man they get so fired up. And there is a time and place for those types of consequences it's not that we have never done that when when the offense warrants it then yes sometimes they lose access to certain privileges because they're not making good choices and so you have to

Rachel Denning (01:15:24.269)
have that wisdom as well to know okay you know what this is a severe enough situation where there needs to be some removal of privileges. Right, but man you have to know what size lever to use with every instance. So man thanks for listening again when the two of us are going we go and I hope you're getting lots of stuff here and you're gonna have questions send us questions. Yes please. Or ideas or stories but

I know this is a big ask since you already spent this much time with us, but I want to seriously invite you to spend time thinking and writing about what do you want most and why you do what you do. Is a lot of your parenting really to conform to some kind of social expectation or some rule you have? Is it arbitrary? Is it real? Do you want your kids to conform and behave and obey right now just so they survive and when they're 18 you can move them on?

Or do you want to have this amazing relationship? You want to be incredible adults. Sorry, I'm raising my hand and Greg stopped talking. I just meant to say like, I have something to add. Well, because I remember going through this process years ago when we listened to and read a lot of Wayne Dyer books. And I went through the process with my parenting of questioning everything. Because you said something right there about go through everything you do and ask yourself why you do it. And I did that. I went through it all and I thought,

Well, why don't I want my kids to stand on the table? Why don't I want them to jump on the furniture? Why do I want them to pick up their rooms? Why do I want them to put on clean clothes? Why do I want them to wear their shoes? Now, some things we threw out. Like, you know, we don't often require our kids to wear their shoes. They go barefoot a lot of places. We're okay with our kids getting on some tables. But we, there's also this level of differentiation where we're also teaching them,

Sometimes it's okay to get on a table and sometimes it's not. And you have to learn to, because that's true in life, right? You have to learn to know when this behavior is appropriate and when this behavior is not appropriate and it's not across the board yes or no. That's life. And so the more differentiation you can help your kids understand, the better off they are for gauging situations in life and learning what is appropriate and what's not. But that's a helpful process of...

Rachel Denning (01:17:46.605)
everything you do when you feel like you have to tell your kids don't do that or You need to do this like ask yourself. Why yeah? Why are you because if you can't explain it to yourself? And you couldn't explain it to them Maybe you don't need to be asking them to do it or not do it this massive list of shoulds and should nots like you have this huge rulebook in your head like Question that stuff like okay. We're going with the table thing here like a picnic table, right?

I can see, in fact, I have done tricks on, on and off of picnic tables. Picnic tables are great for parkour. For parkour. Even for mountain biking, there's actually a mountain biking park where they, they specifically put a bunch of rows of picnic tables that you jump off of. Like it's awesome. So if, if my six, 17 year old would be doing flips off of it and my four year old or five year old now, she climbs up and she's on there and she's like, ah, I want us to jump or whatever. Like that's the beginning of adventures. Right. Now.

If somebody's setting a picnic there and there's like, Oh, don't get on that one. You shouldn't get on that picnic table because people are eating there. You can't have a hard rule of never get on a table. There's definitely times to get on the table. Exactly. Okay. So love it. Think through it all, reevaluate it and think long -term big picture, like end result thinking, because things we do in the moment can be so detrimental down the road.

And so be willing to make adjustments and allowances in the meantime so that the long -term effect is not jeopardized. Do not give up what you want most for what you want in the moment. Love you guys. Reach upward.