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Rachel Denning (00:01.294)
All right, here we go. So Greg is, Greg is under, is here under duress. What does that mean? Under duress. You like, you don't want to be here. You're kind of pressured into being here or convinced. Is that what duress means? Now you make me want to open a dictionary. I know, a dictionary. And like, what does duress mean? We're, we're tackling something that I don't feel like tackling, which is rare.

But Rachel wants to address it, so we're going to go for it. And mostly the reason you don't want to talk about it is because it touches on COVID and you don't want to talk about COVID. You're tired of talking about COVID. Well, essentially, I'm not tired. I'm sick of COVID. I'm more sick of talking about COVID than I was sick when I actually had COVID. But...

How this came up and the reason we're even doing this at this moment is we under duress did a podcast about COVID. But I do not think that word means what you think it means. I'm looking up right now. We did a podcast about COVID and we did have, actually we didn't have much feedback. We had one person give us feedback saying,

It was a little confusing. And I understand that it could be a little confusing, partly because we did not make a clear statement as to what our views or points were or premises were about COVID itself and say the vaccine and all of that. Which is out of character for us. Well, first of all, it's out of character to talk about political statements.

political subjects anyways, and it's out of character for us to not make a clear statement about something. But we were intentionally trying to not make a statement about COVID and the vaccine when we did a podcast about COVID and vaccine. And the reason is when something becomes politicized, especially observing, you know, the world current events,

Rachel Denning (02:26.83)
and then other topics like psychology, philosophy, all these other things that people are more open to hearing your ideas on things that are not political. But once you start talking about politics, suddenly people put you in a box. A lot of people, not everybody. It gets very emotionally charged. It has a tendency, not always, but it has a tendency to divide camps and then box people up. Exactly. And so if you ...

It's almost like in many political, and you guys have all experienced this before, it's almost like in many political topics, it's like there's no neutral ground, there's no middle ground. And there's no nuance. You're either one or the other. Exactly. And if you say, well, you know, I think this, but... and they're like, oh, there's no buts, you're in that camp. And you're like, wait, wait, wait, I have another opinion. Exactly. I can see this both ways. No, you can't. You can't see both ways. You can't see, in the case of the United States, you can't see both...

Democrat and Republican right and if you do you're one of those and so people yeah on the outer fringes Exactly, they put you in that box. So exactly and so we have actually been Well, we said this in the last podcast. We've been apolitical for a very long time. We don't identify as Republican or Democrat. We don't Necessarily identify as conservative or liberal some people think we're more liberal than they are and some people think we're more conservative than they are So but for us we get thrown in those boxes

We try to remain out of arenas where you get boxed. And that's very intentional. Now, the other thing was, even after we did this podcast, our daughter listened to it. She's 19 now. She listens to our podcast and she will always give us feedback. And she calls me up and she's like, that was really good, but I really wanted to hear what you think about it. Right? And I said, well, that was on purpose. We weren't trying to tell you or tell people,

what to think about this subject, we were trying to show how to think about it. We were trying to show examples of how to look at this, an issue like COVID and the vaccine, from multiple angles, because that's what we do with everything. And so... Well, hold on, not everything, because sometimes we have podcasts where we come straight out and be like, this is the way things are, people. Yes. And so this one is out of character. Okay. And people are like, well, why aren't you making a statement? You guys always make statements. Right. What's going on?

Rachel Denning (04:52.11)
Well, and I would say yes, we do do that, but behind the scenes, we're doing that only because we have looked at that subject from a lot of different angles, right? And so because you and I have spent the time discussing, analyzing, thinking through all the different angles of that subject and trying to prove ourselves wrong, that is how we are able to...

come out and be very bold and clear about this is our position. Now, we could. So are you suggesting we didn't do that with this one? No, that's what I was about to go into. We could do that with this. We could say this is our view on COVID and the vaccine. But we are intentionally not doing that because of the politicized nature of it. And because of the divided camps that are occurring right now, that people will automatically.

place you in one box or another. This is not our job. This is not our role to try to be COVID crusaders. One camp or the other. Our role is family development. Now family development is going to carry across into all areas of life, including COVID and the vaccine, but by focusing on what really matters, which is developing yourself, developing your family.

learning to have influence, learning to become your best self, that is going to, to us, that is the solution to the problems of the world. To every problem. Yeah. And so by focusing on solving those problems, we believe that's the real solution to all problems, including COVID. Which ultimately I would say is, is something I feel so strongly about and I want to invite everyone to deeply consider. Just think about this one for the next, uh,

50 60 years Just when you take absolute ownership For every part of your life your mental health your emotional health your spiritual well -being your physical health down to your immune system even down in this case to your cellular health and your brain like when you take total ownership for all of it and you research and

Rachel Denning (07:19.086)
practice the best principles and practices like so many of life's problems. Yeah, life's problems like global problems, community problems, whatever. So many problems. Don't they dissipate? Yeah. Or in some instances, they honestly affect you very little or not at all. Like it's almost like you can live independent, right? And with some kind of immunity to

Some of life, and I believe this wholeheartedly. I've experienced it myself. I help my coaching clients go through it. Like this is what we do is like we find these truths and these practices, these strategies, these systems, these proven principles that just work. And it's as though they give you some kind of immunity to life's problems. And when you're on the outside, when you're in the problems, you're like, nah, that's bogus. Like I don't believe that. But when you practice this and step into this other realm, so to speak,

It seems unreal, even saying it seems unreal, but I've seen it too many times to deny it. You step into this place of immunity from some of life's problems. I just had a client go through it again last week and it was so awesome to hear her on her own articulate this stuff where she's like, I just feel like I stepped into this other world where all these things that used to just... Terrifying? Dormant, terrifying, trouble her.

She's like, they're literally not even an issue anymore. I don't even think about them. Where our first few sessions were like really trying to, okay, how do we address this stuff? She's like, it's a non -issue. Like I've stepped out of that world and it's like, yes. Right. And so in some ways that is actually the world we live in. That's the world we inhabit. And we are often reminded that not everyone lives there.

Whenever we interact with. We sometimes forget that. But for an example, while you were talking, I was thinking about, I think, you're maybe uncertain, that we had COVID twice. Once in February 2020, after we had been to Thailand and we had a layover in South Korea, we came back and the whole family got sick. And it was in my mind, clearly COVID symptoms. Then we got it again when we'd gone out and traveled.

Rachel Denning (09:46.158)
for seven months through Mexico and Guatemala. The irony. The irony. California, Utah, all across the United States came back to our home base in Georgia and within two or three weeks got COVID again. And this time for sure it was COVID because we lost our smell and our sense of taste and stuff. But on both occasions, this is an example of how we operate. I wasn't afraid.

I wasn't blaming other people. I wasn't questioning how we do life and whether we should have done the things we've done. And all I did was I took 100 % responsibility and I thought, oh, we got COVID. This is how I think, okay? We got COVID because our immune systems were weakened.

Now, for a lot of people, that probably sounds like a really crazy idea or a really crazy belief, but it's an example of the 100 % ownership and responsibility viewpoint that we operate with for everything in our life. If I got COVID, it's because my immune system was weakened because I had not been taking care of myself well enough, which often happens when you travel and that's a natural thing. I, I...

Often, not often, I sometimes end up getting sick. Particularly the last couple of months, man. We were traveling pretty hard and routines were off. We were road tripping pretty hard. For the whole family. And so it was sleep deprivation and long road trips. And crappier food. But again, that requires a base of knowledge, understanding, belief about... It's interesting even to say something like that.

There's layers and layers there. In fact, in our case, years of study to get back to this understanding of like what the body's actually capable of, which if you haven't studied it, you might think, no, man, like we're all susceptible to illness. We're all equally susceptible. Yeah, we're all equally susceptible unless you're high risk or something. But otherwise the restaurant, even playing field and everyone's going to get sick and that kind of talk. But when you dig deep into it and you see what's possible. And again, if you're, if you're looking around,

Rachel Denning (12:05.262)
at the common, you know, the common, the average gathering of humans. You might look around and be like, well, that's the case, man. I don't see anyone around here that's not getting sick, but you have to like dig into this to find out, man, there's, there's a group of people who almost never get sick and they live in a way that their immune system is doing what the human body is supposed to do. And this isn't like some weird doo doo doo doo talk. It's like,

No, the body was created for this purpose and it has this capability of strength. We just messed it. Um, yesterday I'm meeting with one of my coaching clients and good friends. Um, and he is, he is fighting off a stage four cancer right now and he's been digging in on his research and you know, went to a retreat center outside the country and it was just all this great stuff. And he came back and he, he's just learning so much, but he, he shared that.

that they were teaching him and telling him that 70 % of the immune system is really based on the health of the gut. And if you have a healthy gut, and it's often been said that the gut is the second brain, like so much of the functions of the body and the decision making, so much of what's going on is dependent on the health of the gut. But...

whatever, even if those percentages are off a little bit, I think we can all agree like, yeah, you got to have a healthy digestion system, a healthy gut to your immune system. And then just look at the common diet, right? Look at the American diet, for example. The sad diet, the standard American diet. Like, oh my goodness, there's no way that we can have a healthy gut and therefore in this case, a fully functioning immune system simply because of how much we're eating.

what we're eating, what is in our food, our processed foods. So this is how this all fits. This is why our episode seems a little confusing, Tamsan, like we're all over the place, because we're trying in an hour and a half to fit all of these information, all these pieces together, like your gut health, right? And popcorn. Where does popcorn come into this? And how are you connecting heart disease, which isn't contagious,

Rachel Denning (14:28.238)
and COVID which is and how are you thinking about these pieces? Which I want to expand on a little more, but essentially the idea that everything is connected. It is all connected. It's all connected. And that's something you only see when you zoom out to this larger frame of reference because everything, like there's layers of truth. And so at one level and one layer of truth, you're like, yeah, okay, this is true. And this makes sense. But if you zoom out, you see how that,

it actually fits into a larger puzzle, a larger picture. And so that's what we're trying to do is zoom out and look at these larger pieces to see how all of it is connected. And that heart disease and COVID are actually connected and they're branches on the same tree of health and wellbeing. And if we can focus on fixing the root of the problem of disease, which is essentially imbalances in the body and...

faltering immune systems, that then instead of hacking away at the branches, we are experiencing true healing, which then... Is at the root of the issue. Right. It is, yeah, instead of dealing with the symptoms. So, in essence, that was kind of a long introduction. Let's circle back to that because I think, ultimately, I think that's the essence of our message on so many things, is that...

as both of us have been voraciously studying across so many genres and fields of studies for over two decades, you get all these pieces of the puzzle and you see like, man, this all fits. And it all fits together. And so it seems random. It seems like we're on tangents. It seems unrelated and disconnected. And like, where are you guys going with this? And I remember...

Remember feeling like that a lot with people like speakers and big thinkers. I was like, well, like Jordan Peterson does that all over the place I'm like what in the world and and even to listen to that guy and slightly comprehend what he's saying you have to be super well read because he's rest referencing, you know psychologists like William James and I was the other one you reference results on we're so and PSA I Can't even think of their names right now

Rachel Denning (16:52.142)
But then he's Russian author, psychologist, history, classics. I mean he's all over and unless you've read through the stuff and referenced you know the the philosophers and the thinkers then you're just like you're like what? But if he'll... You. Carl Jung. Carl Jung. Thank you. It was coming. I was like it's right there. It's a J. He references Carl Jung all the time. But if you haven't read Jung and if you haven't...

read Immanuel Kant and you haven't read Dostoevsky, right? Then he'll throw in one sentence and it'll be like, it's like this and you're like, what? What does that have to do with anything you're talking about? But then if you read the whole gigantic book that Dostoevsky wrote, then one sentence from Jordan Peterson connected to a phrase you're like, oh, volumes of meaning. Yeah, volumes of meaning, which is really cool. So that's the maps of meaning. That's the layers of meaning.

that we're trying to talk about here, that we're trying to expound on in, you're right, an hour and a half. And so essentially, there was, I'm not gonna deny it, there was some vagueness, some potential confusion in the last podcast we did about COVID because we weren't very clear on like, this is the way it is and that's all we're gonna say about it, right? Because of the politicized nature of it.

We respect other people's viewpoints and opinions and beliefs about this. And we feel that it's a very personal thing, ultimately. And getting more complex. And getting more complex. Absolutely. Here's what I love that's happening right now. I read a report on Monday of this week that 24 states in the United States have threatened to sue the federal administration against some of their mandates. So...

almost half of the country is divided on this. Which is showing that there's a major division. Yes, and that's actually what I love. Not that that's... I guess what I love... Let me get clear. I love this. What I love is that it's not one -sided, not blatantly one -sided like this is the way things are. It's kind of split in half saying, wait a minute, there's not just one way to look at this, and that's what I love. Because that is where safety lies.

Rachel Denning (19:14.318)
The complexity. When you live in a world that is entirely one -sided, well, what that becomes is North Korea. And that seems like an extreme statement, but that's the reality. When you have one -sided viewpoints and one -sided arguments and you don't allow a variety or diversity of opinions, that's dangerous. And history has proven that again and again. So in that spirit, though, you know, we had...

someone email us and they said, there was some confusion, I thought there was some holes in your arguments, can I email you about this? And we're like, yes, please, we would like to know, we want to know where our thinking is off. We want to hear from our audience, you guys, our listeners, to hear what you think, if you are confused, if you have questions, if you think that we're totally off. We do want to hear that. And so, in part, that's,

what we're responding to now is this email that was sent. And so part of what we've been talking about is included in this. First of all, that we were intentionally vague in a way. And the reason we're doing, Rachel really wants to do this. I didn't want to, that's why she used the word duress. I looked it up, said you're kind of forced to do something against your better judgment. See, I think that was an accurate use of the word. It was, it was. But...

So as we do this, we're going to respond because his response was really thoughtful. He went through it. He was very thoughtful, very chiglet. I really enjoyed reading through them. I'm actually really, really glad he did it. But don't here's, here's where my take is. I don't want to do another podcast on COVID. I want to do a podcast on thoughtfulness on using, okay. Using an example in this example of COVID. On levels of thinking. On levels of thinking on.

frameworks of thinking on how everything affects everything, how it's all connected and how we can take this as an example and go to any part of our lives, anything that is politicized or not and say, how can I think around this differently? How can I expose this? How can I understand this and get into good, thoughtful conversations and debates?

Rachel Denning (21:40.398)
Again, the ultimate goal is understanding followed with action in every aspect of life. And so this is one example, and I hope this is helpful as a methodology or an example of just thinking around things and questioning and examining. Well, as one example...

I think that it is very powerful to always be questioning things. And I would say that's certainly an approach we're constantly taking with COVID, with the vaccine, but with everything else in our life. And we've been doing this, we've been questioning everything for at least 15 years of our 20 years of marriage. And I say that because that's when we started living a vastly different lifestyle. That's when we started traveling, living abroad.

doing things in a way that... We had this dream of traveling full -time as a family. And that was before... We were even on Facebook and blogs were like brand new. We had no idea of how to even make something like that possible. But the only way we've been able to achieve all of the dreams we have been able to achieve is because we took this approach to life of questioning everything. And that's an approach that continues.

to this day. And so yes, do we question everything in regards to COVID and the vaccine? Absolutely, because that's the approach we've always taken. To all of life. To all of life. As we were, so we, you guys, this was crazy. We didn't even know anybody who had driven the Pan American Highway. And we were just like, we hope there's pavement or roads, right? We hope there's stores. And we like...

This was Google Maps even exists. We were in maps. We have like paper maps. It did exist because I remember I would map it on the first time on the laptop in the hotel and then I would leave the map up while we drove and just reference it. But it wasn't on. This was the very first time in 2007. But we didn't have service on our phone. We didn't even have a smartphone. So this was great. Here's what I want to share. As we were driving.

Rachel Denning (23:56.814)
We listened to this audio program by Wayne Dyer. And in that, he is a program called How to Be a No Limit Person. Really awesome, I just remember loving it. And he said in that, he said, question why you do everything. Why do you eat three meals a day? And why do you eat them when you eat? Why do you sleep when you sleep? Why do you do what you do? And he said, if you could just zoom away from Earth and spin the globe, would you pick to live? If you could live anywhere on the globe, would you pick to live where you live?

And he went through everything. He just walks you through mentally to question all of it. And we did that process. Yeah, why do we eat three times a day at those? Where did that come from? We were just born into it. We assume that's the way humans eat. Right? And then you start questioning it and it just expands your mind, your possibilities to all kinds of new horizons and new ways of living. And some you come back to and some you're like,

Yeah, I'm gonna get rid of that one. And so in that spirit that we've something we've been doing for 15 plus years, we asked those questions. Well, why? Why should we wear a mask? Why should we not wear a mask? Why should we get a vaccine? Why should we not get a vaccine? Why is COVID a thing? Why are all these deaths occurring? Why is it? Why, why, why, why, why? Like it goes on and on and on. And so the spirit of the past podcast was to promote that type of questioning. Why, why, why? Ask.

Why? All the time. People are afraid to ask why because they're afraid of what the answer might be and then it might put them in another camp than the camp they want to be in. And one of the dangers we see so often, we've been guilty of and we see it regularly, is you might ask why but then you hurry and jump on the answer of a common narrative on, again, one side or the other. And so if you're in one camp or the other, you're saying, well, hey, why?

And you're like, whoa, my camp or this camp's saying that. So you either choose to go with one or choose to go the opposite because you go against the other. Right. Well, because you're afraid to consider what the other camp might be saying or implying. And that's terrifying to even, sometimes in today's age, especially with politicized topics, it's dangerous, it feels dangerous to even think about considering what the other side has said.

Rachel Denning (26:21.966)
That's not a good place to be in. We need to be able to consider other viewpoints, even extreme ones at times, to think about how they might be wrong and how they might be right. And to pick and choose. Because that's going to round out your own thinking. Yes. Yes. And to pick and choose particular issues. Well, and pick and choose viewpoints from both sides. That's what I meant.

Yeah. So it's that exact same thing and be like, well, you know, you know, I agree with this group on this thing, but actually I agree with that group on this thing because you're being thoughtful about it. Anyways, let's dive in. Okay. So essentially it seemed a little confusing, maybe even a little bit cringy, um, in contrast to the other podcasts, which were, you know, quite tackling subjects quite clearly. Yes. So we kind of address that. Um, the overarching,

theme may have been that people should take responsibility for their own well -being, yes, but I'm concerned how you presented a false apples and oranges comparison of the response to COVID and to heart disease. Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the response in that you're talking about masks and vaccines versus what response to heart disease? Is there a response to heart disease? I don't know.

And I think I just touched on this lightly before of, you know, heart disease is not contagious, but COVID is, and it seems that's a very apples to oranges issue unless like we were talking about earlier, you back way up and say, well, like you want, is this where you want to dive into this? Well, let me expound right here. Cause he expounds a little more. In reality, these are not comparable. Well, that's where we would disagree as a communicable disease, deaths by COVID grow exponentially while deaths by heart disease and other causes.

like it changed linearly. I'm not so sure about that. I don't know that deaths by COVID grow exponentially, especially based on research I've done by evolutionary biologists and communicable disease experts saying that specifically with coronavirus, coronaviruses, because there's been many, including the cold and flus, they generally become more contagious, but less deadly, which makes sense because if they became more,

Rachel Denning (28:49.87)
contagious and more deadly, they would end up killing off their hosts and then they would no longer be able to survive. So I don't know that the exponential rate of COVID deaths or that COVID deaths are bound to be exponential. But the point is they don't seem to be comparable and yet from another frame of reference, they are absolutely comparable in that, if we go back to this narrative of the tree and the branches, all diseases,

are branches on the same tree. That means contagious diseases as well as lifestyle diseases, right? Heart disease, obesity, well, even smoking is a disease on the same tree. And the reason why is because the trunk of that tree of disease is your body. You can't have disease without your body, so therefore your body is the source of all disease.

which if we break out the etymology there, it's dis -ease. It's things that are off. And again, I get this. Some of you might be like, what are you guys talking about? I remember hearing people talk about this years ago. 20 years ago? It was Deepak Chopra and Wayne Dyer and others. And when I heard them talking about it, these guys are crazy, man. But when you study it more and more and more and deeper and deeper, you realize, OK, yeah, they're onto something.

the root cause of all of it is actually related. So there's a lot more... Two imbalances in your body. Yes. So there's a lot more connection between something that seems contagious and maybe it seems outside of our control than to something that's a lifestyle choice in our control. But the deeper connection, even than that, there's another layer of deep connection here, is that the vast majority of people who are...

experiencing severe symptoms and death from contagious diseases are actually, you know, they have what's called a comorbidity, meaning they were already dying of something else. Like, major, major numbers on this. Huge percentage. So it's people who were already unhealthy. They were already compromised very often, not always, but very often because of lifestyle choices.

Rachel Denning (31:14.894)
that that's where the problem. So there's multiple layers of connection. So yes, I agree. It seems like apples to oranges, but if you zoom out, you're like, hmm, okay, there's a lot of connection. And in some ways, you could even say if you're drawing a tree that COVID is a twig or a branch off of another branch of heart disease or obesity or. Absolutely, because obesity was the number one cause.

And then, okay, then you guys, and we touched on this, it's worth. Number one contributor to death by COVID. Yep, to severity of symptoms and death was obesity. Number two was, like we mentioned, was anxiety and fear -related, what they call that? They just said like fear -related illnesses. Fear -related illnesses. So that is actually the mind. And that's a whole other topic in discussion. And again, part of this.

that we're talking about this metaphor, the tree, the mind, the state of the mind, your thinking patterns and habits are literally affecting how a contagious disease affects your body. That's next level stuff. But real. But real. And not only that, but that it affects your ability to...

catch the disease. And in fact, there are some people out there, I mean even more extreme than we are, saying, not that we're extreme, this is not extreme, this is like, this is the new normal, like this is the new level of understanding that many, many doctors, dentists, health practitioners are embracing their understanding. Now it's not mainstream yet, but it's getting there. Like, since seriously more...

mainstream than it was 20 years ago. Oh, way more. And so I think that's important. Like this isn't just our opinion. This isn't something that we kind of conjured up. Like we're sharing things we've read and read and read and read for decades now. That are now coming, like more and more people are... Yeah. There's so much research. But the point being... Not that popularity makes it true. Exactly. But like the amount of research... Truth makes it true. The amount of research is just becoming undeniable. Right. But point being that there are people out there that say you...

Rachel Denning (33:31.15)
you actually cannot catch a disease. Because in reality, we are constantly, as human beings, surrounded by bacteria and virus. It is in us. It is in us. It is on us. It is on everything. There are bacteria and virus everywhere. All the time. All the time. The only thing that keeps you... Not the only thing. The...

most important thing that keeps you from developing a contagious disease is the strength of your immune system. So you, what I hear you saying, if we said it in other ways, like we are always exposed to bacteria and viruses and illness all the time. And sometimes it affects us and sometimes it doesn't. The major factor we could say is the condition of your immune system.

and your mind. And I know that's next level stuff. Which is next level and which directly ties into I would say the research, the scientific research done by which school I forget, is it Yale or Harvard or some on Wim Hof. Wim Hof is a world record holding, where is he from? The Netherlands? Anyways, he's Danish or...

something like that, but he has many world records, one of them climbing to Mount Everest with no oxygen in shorts, with no shirt on. But they did some, it's one of the major schools, I'll have to look it up, but they did some research on him where they actually injected him with Ebola virus and it was shown that he was able to, with his mind, have control over the autonomic system of his immune.

I'm messing this all up, but he had control over his own immune system and was able to fight off the Ebola virus. And this was scientifically documented. He did it in a laboratory with scientists observing. Because he was cheating all these things and so all these scientists and doctors were like, I don't know, are you some kind of crazy anomaly? And he's like, I can do it. And they injected him with it and he shut it down. They said, well, okay, you must be superhuman. And he's like, well, do it to my students. And so his students did it. And he proved...

Rachel Denning (35:54.766)
That humans can control. He's a perfect example of what we're talking about. You guys study his life. What podcast was it? Was it with Jordan Peterson? Okay, so there's an interview with Jordan Peterson and Wim Hof. Listen to that one and he tells that whole story. It's amazing. He proves that if you get your immune system in the right condition and your mind in the right condition that you not only can resist getting ill, but if you get the illness, you can push it out.

I know this sounds crazy, but this is what we're talking about. I was on Instagram today and I follow him of course and one of his posts was, I don't get colds, I don't get the flu. He didn't say COVID. But because I go to the cold. Right, because it's politicized. I go to the cold so I don't get the cold. And he was talking about this, you know, this, he has this whole cold therapy technique and everything, but he is able to control.

his mind and his body and that's what keeps him from getting disease. Okay, so that's a very long explanation of why in our mind heart disease and contagious diseases are directly related because ultimately it depends on the state of your body and your mind. And so it's, I think that's the perfect example of how it's all connected and if you and I will take, again, I think Wim Hof is a perfect example of taking absolute

ownership of the condition of your mind and your body and putting in the principles and practices, which he does oxygen, right? Oxygen is one of them, cold therapy is another one, but getting your body to a place where all of those diseases, you can live independent. Again, like I'm saying, like you can have this, it's almost like this diplomatic immunity from illness and all this stuff. And yet if you don't, then illness stacks against you.

dis -ease stacks on dis -ease and that's why you'll find problem after problem stacking on top of each other from diabetes to again, the trail of diabetes turns into other problems and cancers and You know any any kind of illness like this they stack like obesity is one that goes to the heart disease its lungs problems amnesia and failure like again, it's stacked so it goes both ways. And we know this sounds crazy because 20 years ago

Rachel Denning (38:19.502)
Our 20 year old, or whatever, however old we were, we were in our 20s 20 years ago. This was hard for us to believe. This was hard for us to grasp. But it's only because we have been studying it, researching it, seeing it for the past 20 years that we can even speak with this much boldness about it. But it's also why we didn't talk about it last time because it does seem to many people a new crazy idea. Like almost an absurd idea.

And yet we have to say at this point, it's undeniable that this is how it works. But which I think ties into this idea that, yeah, saying that COVID is going to exponentially to grow at an exponential rate, unless there is a correlated degree of countermeasures like masks, distance vaccine. Yeah, that works for some people because that's what they believe.

Think about that for a second, okay? That works for some people because that's what they believe. Now you're gonna be like, that's crazy, that's stupid. But yet that is the world we live in. That we live in, Greg and I inhabit, is this idea that...

You are in control of your own body and your own mind, but if you don't feel that you're in that space, then you do have to do things to help you get in that space. Meaning that if you're afraid of catching a contagious disease, then you should probably be wearing a mask because that's going to help you. Or not, because sometimes your fear actually makes you... Okay, now hear me out on this one and then hear this. Assuage your fear. Your fear...

Okay, I get what you're saying. What's a placebo effect? In a way, it's a placebo effect. So a mask can actually be a placebo effect. If there's no scientific evidence, I'm just arguing here, if there's no scientific evidence that wearing a mask helps to not spread certain diseases, and I'm not saying there is or there's not at this point. Exactly. If nothing else, the scientific evidence is clear that if you believe a mask works and you wear it, it is going to help you.

Rachel Denning (40:34.541)
not catch the disease. That's how the placebo effect works. So if you're sitting here listening to us and you're like, you guys are a little bit on the crazy train with this, if I think one thing, I get the thing. But the placebo effect proves it. And just to be clear, it is one of the most highly documented scientific... We did not create the placebo effect. We did not come up with this. If you study the placebo effect, and there's so much research out there that's not even funny, that...

If you believe you were giving some, and receiving a benefit from something, then you do, whether you did or not. I mean, they'll give you, there's every kind of examples from literal knee surgeries. They made the incision, they sewed them up, they said, hey, surgery went great. They literally did nothing to the knee and there, you know, weeks later they're like, my knee feels fantastic, doc, this surgery was great. It was all placebo. Same thing with pills, same thing with injections, same thing with the COVID vaccine. They are doing placebo. They're doing placebo on it. So the,

The fact that a placebo effect actually works proves that what you think and what you believe affects what happens to your body on both sides of the camp. If you fear getting it and you think you will get sick and die, you often will. That's why it's the second factor. Contributing factor to COVID deaths is fear producing illnesses. And then if you believe that you won't and you live in that space, like that influences it too. Again.

We're not inventing this stuff. This is all documented. We're just sharing it. Okay. So, um, one other point here that you were indicating COVID was the third leading cause of deaths in the U S behind heart disease and cancer. Um, but it draws a question mark for 2021 already in November of 2021, we're at 755 ,000 cumulative COVID deaths. So that's about 410 ,000.

in 2021. Well, the first again, back to this whole premise of questioning everything. We haven't looked this up. We're not bearing fire to this, but I'm just going to say in this spirit of questioning everything, which we do, is that until I see clear numbers on COVID only deaths versus COVID deaths with comorbidities,

Rachel Denning (42:56.877)
None of this makes a difference to me per se. Does that make sense? Like, well, let me, let me kind of clarify. So it sounds clear. If, if you have a comorbidity, meaning you have something that is already killing you. So say I have cancer or lung disease or heart disease, I have something that's killing me and I catch COVID and COVID kills you faster, kills me faster. Um, in, in at least in our minds.

that's very different from somebody who they just died of COVID. You see what's happening. This is what happens if I have a disease. I'm already, my body's already in the state of slowly dying. And so then any illness, be it pneumonia or flu or whatever, speeds that up because my body's already shutting down and moving towards death. So,

I don't think we're heartless here, you guys. We're not. Like, we care. But it's a difference. When I say it doesn't make a difference to me, what I mean is it's not changing my view on the actual, the so -called danger of COVID unless there are clear numbers. And I don't know that there are. I don't know that anyone is actually tracking this. At least not that I know of.

I haven't seen anyone tracking COVID only deaths versus COVID with comorbidities deaths. In fact, I think what we read is that it was well over 60 % had one or even two. 60 or 80%, something like that. Had one or two comorbidities. So what are then the actual numbers of

only COVID deaths, if that makes sense. Because if there's a death by COVID with a heart disease co -morbidity, well, should that really be counted as a COVID death or a heart disease death or both? Like how, you know, how are we actually running this data here? Because we all know that you can make data to prove whatever point it is you want to prove. So until there's more information about this, that's a little more clear.

Rachel Denning (45:21.837)
And another way to look at this, just another angle, is always considering percentages too. So, okay, even if the numbers are increasing, let's assume they are increasing legit and it's just real caused by COVID, you still look at the amount of people who caught it, who were tested positive, or not even tested at all, but know they had it. Well, because both times we had it, we didn't test positive. So you take all the people getting it and look at the percentages,

It's still everything I've read and I could be wrong, but everything I've seen and read, it's still under 1%. On liberal sides, on conservative sides, it's about 1 % fatality rate, which yes, I get it, 1%. It's not nothing. Still 1%. But when you look at things historically, just from a big zoomed out perspective, you're like, that's tiny.

Rachel Denning (46:18.413)
Okay, so there is a lot more here.

Rachel Denning (46:25.677)
Oh, one of the other points, yes. I don't need anyone to step in and protect me from COVID was a quote from our last.

podcast and I think we kind of covered that in a way of this view and approach to life of taking 100 % responsibility for your life, your actions, your body, your health, but what is brought up, which is a very valid point, is the need for, well, or even the role of government to play in being a...

Well, I like to call them a big HOA sometimes. Before you jump into that, can I expound on that one thought? If we don't accept full accountability and responsibility for our own health, it's really easy to think other people are at fault for my health. And that's that I think we can all agree that's a form of a victimism mentality, but that actually gets extremely dangerous. If I'm going around thinking that other people,

human beings are a threat to me. That's dangerous. That's dangerous thinking because you're clearly objectifying a human being and turning that person into a threat. And that, ooh, that is dangerous, dangerous ground. You study a little bit of history to realize where that can lead. Well, and to go on a tangent for a bit, I mean, sometimes it is necessary to do that because sometimes people are legitimate threats, but that's generally when... To my health?

Well, I'm just saying in general, but that's usually when you're in a dark alley at night in the wrong, you know, and they people are a threat. And he has a gun and he walks up and he's telling me he's going to kill me if I don't give him a wallet. In that case, he should be objectified in a way to protect yourself from harm. So yes. But is... That is in a way what is happening on a mass scale to people right now. We have been put in such a place of fear.

Rachel Denning (48:33.997)
and it gets preached to us all the time in the news and media and on social that we are in this state of fight or flight mode. Like our basal ganglia is overactive and we feel that other people are a threat to us. And so unless they get on board with our way of thinking about things, they're a threat. And so that's one of the dangers of what's going on right now and why I think it is even more important.

to try to consider and look at other people's viewpoints and look at other people as humans in order to reduce some of this terror that's going around. But yes, by and large, and I can see if somebody could argue a few exceptions here, but as a whole, my health is my responsibility.

and I'm not going to throw fault or blame at another person that's out and about that it's their fault that I am sick. Again, it's a form of victimism because I'm like, no, if I get sick, it's my responsibility. Right, and so I own that. I'm not blaming it on another person.

And so I can't say, well, you're being irresponsible. You're being thoughtless. You're being careless. You don't care about lives. If you go out and do your thing, I get, no, I have to own it for myself. And if I'm, if, if I'm at risk most of the time, not all the time, most of the time, it's my fault. Right. And if I'm concerned, I need to take measures to protect myself, not force other people or again, condemn them.

for doing their thing. Anyways, that's just kind of my thought. Which gets tricky here because like in the email it says here, vaccines and masks are not principally there to protect you, meaning even us specifically, but they're what society is asking you to do for others because it's the right thing to do to help people who are not as low risk as yourself. Now, that's not inaccurate. Like there is a place,

Rachel Denning (50:57.389)
to have these types of things available in society to protect people who are weaker or people who are more at risk. I'm not saying that that's not a good thing. In every way, shape, and form, as a person, as a man, I want to stand up for and protect and help those who may not be able to protect and help themselves. I live that and preach that and will follow that my whole life.

In this instance. Well, not even in this instance. I would still say that even though that there's truth in that statement, there's also a lot of nuance. There's a lot of shades. I don't like using that word of shades, but if there's one thing that we've certainly learned, it is that there is more than black and white.

There's a lot more to nearly every situation in life than we think. There's more than just black and white. There are many personal circumstances, situations, variations. I love the word nuances because it's so descriptive of what's happening. There are a lot of nuances. And so if I was going to visit someone who was low risk, in fact, we did this, especially in the beginning, my aunt and uncle are,

are, well, not as low, they're higher risk, that's what I meant. They're higher risk. When we went to visit them, we wore masks, we kept our distance, like we did all the things. It's not that we're against doing those things or that those things are wrong to do, but when someone comes to visit us, we don't feel that's a requirement because we have a different belief system, we have a different operating system, so to say. So it's not that we have to,

that we're promoting an idea or a belief that is disrespectful to others, that don't have the same beliefs, that don't have the same understanding, that don't have the same health history or same opportunities or same any of that. All of that is something that has to be taken into consideration. But we also need to realize the other side of the spectrum of people who believe differently, operate differently, work differently, and they also need to have

Rachel Denning (53:28.685)
they need to be respected too. So it's a complicated issue and that it involves many levels and many layers of all kinds of beliefs, all kinds of backgrounds, all kinds of histories that all have to be taken into consideration. But I think it's possible if ultimately you do it when you're dealing with people on an individual to individual basis, because that's what it comes down to. When you're talking about,

requiring something or mandating something or doing something because it helps society, well what you're really talking about is your neighbor or your grandma or your friend or your thing. So every situation could and should be different. You don't have to have one size fits all for everything you do if you have the intuition, the intelligence and the ability to feel out what each situation needs uniquely for that situation and circumstance.

try to force a one size fits all. One size fits all rarely works for anything. And you're actually devaluing. Human beings. The wonder and awe and majesty. And complexity. Of an individual. Yes. And so there's this idea that we're all tempted to buy into of like.

Do it for the whole, do it for the community. But there is no whole, there's only individuals. Right, it's only the sum of the individual. Do it for the individual that needs it and don't do it for the other individual that doesn't need it. This is tough and this is one of those Socratic moments where we ask you to consider what would you mandate across all kinds of things and where government steps in and say, okay, what's the role of government?

in what about seat belts? Well, that's actually what comes up next here, which is good, and it's true. And that's why I was joking about the government being a big HOA, because we have lived in a lot of developing nations which have fewer rules and regulations. At one time in our life, we really appreciated that. We liked it. We liked the freedom of not having building codes and not having, well, often not even having seat belts in the car and not having, you know, all of these rules. We...

Rachel Denning (55:46.925)
We enjoyed that, especially when we were younger and we were raising small kids and it was a lot of fun. And as I've gotten older, not that I'm that old, I'm only in my 40s. I have appreciated more many of the rules and regulations of the United States which bring more order and reduce chaos. We have a house in Guatemala and on Mother's Day at

3 or 4 a .m. they're putting off fireworks or the dogs are barking next door or the evangelical church is blaring its music at all hours. So there's a lot of these inconveniences that arise with a lack of regulation. So I'm not unappreciative of the regulations and the safety that government can provide. It is a real thing and I don't...

Unappreciate it. I do appreciate it. We have felt the contrast keenly from moving from Central America to Germany. Yeah, exactly. And then traveling from Switzerland into Italy. Yeah. Just drive across that border. Drive across Switzerland and drive into Italy and you're like, whoa! The contrast! And we spent three months in Germany and then we spent three months in Morocco. And there's very clear contrast. But guess what? Ultimately, there's pros and cons to both sides. Exactly.

And that's really what it comes down to. And different people like different things. The Germans like things more orderly, more organized, more... The Moroccans, they love their chaotic order. Yes. And one's not necessarily better than the other. So when we talk about like where does the line lie for mandating things like seat belts, like even food, you know, like cancer causing...

Food things cancer -causing ingredients like where does that line lie? Well, no one can really say honestly because ultimately it comes down to Individual preferences and some cultures want more chaos and more freedom and some cultures want more order and more so in this context You know, I might lean towards hey if if there's clear evidence that that chemical you're putting in food is literally tied to

Rachel Denning (58:09.517)
cancer or harm to the body. Which is the case with a lot of FDA approved substances which are illegal in Europe. They have been known to be cancer causing. So I would lean to the side of yeah, they should make that illegal. It shouldn't go in the food to which point you'd say hey, wait a minute buddy. How's that different than men eating vaccines? Didn't you just say that it's all about individual accountability? I'm like yeah, yeah. If everyone was educated enough to pause and look at the ingredients and they all knew what was good and what wasn't.

and they all took the time and effort to educate themselves and then look at the ingredients list and make the choice go, oh, this isn't good for my body and put it back on the shelf, that company would go out of business. They would have to change their ingredients. So I can see both sides of that argument. Yes, but to expand on the point a little bit, in some ways that's different than forcing everyone to eat that ingredient. Yes. Or forcing everyone to take that ingredient in. So they're...

In my mind, that's the nuanced difference is that if you're making something illegal that's proven quote unquote to be bad is a little different than forcing people to take something that may or may not be that. Which is in question. Okay, so we could go on and on, well.

People know us, we could go on and on for very long. But we've been talking a long time and in between the previous point and this, we actually did some coaching. So we're done talking for now. But what we wanna say in closing and in summary, ultimately is that while we could address very specific points,

about COVID, about the vaccine, about the numbers, about mandates, about fatality rates, about et cetera, et cetera, on and on and on. Ultimately, that's not the point of our podcast. That's not the point of the work we do. That's not the point of our mission. Yes, those are things Greg and I might discuss in interest or out of curiosity, but it's not.

Rachel Denning (01:00:30.541)
something that we feel necessary, it's necessary for us to share in a platform like this. Because our message is individual responsibility, personal development, family development, and the principles and practices that lead to taking more ownership of your life.

developing your skills, abilities, and capabilities to the best that you're able to. And then taking control over what you have control of, which we call sphere of influence. So your sphere of influence essentially is, well it starts with you, you're the center of that sphere of influence, and that moves to your spouse.

and then that moves to your children, and then that grows to, say, your children's friends, or your friends, or your church, or your community, or your work, your colleagues, and it moves out from there. And so ultimately, in order to address world issues, or pandemic issues, our belief is that's how it's solved. You start where you are, and you move out from there. Now, is that gonna help government decide what they need to do, or what?

you know, mandates should or should not be made. It could if that approach was taken by those in power, but that's not...

That's not in my sphere of influence. And so all I can do is go off of what my...

Rachel Denning (01:02:19.533)
personal what what personal power I have Which is way more than most of us think yes address more than Wim Hof exactly Take the personal power that I have and apply it to the interactions that I have on a daily basis so when it comes to a mask or a vaccine or whatever my my my duty to

to society is going to involve the actual society that I operate in. And if that requires me to wear a mask, then I guess that's something I need to do. If that requires me or encourages me or necessitates that I get a vaccine, then I guess that's what I need to do. But that's not the case for every person. Some people don't operate in a society, in a space where that becomes necessary for them.

And so that's where the nuances come in of.

different scenarios, different requirements, different, whatever word you want to use, directives for each person and individual depending on where they are, who they are, what their situation is, because there's not a one size fits all. Ultimately, I think that's our message and only because...

That's not a conclusion we came to based on the current events that are happening in the world today, but that's a conclusion we came to many years ago that has played out again and again and again and proven to be true again and again and again as we've studied across domains from psychology to biology to history to philosophy. These are just the principles we've seen that work.

Rachel Denning (01:04:20.141)
So while this ultimately seems rambling or incoherent or confusing or whatever other word you wanna put there, in reality, to us, we're sharing how it's all connected.

and who you are and the power you have.

Rachel Denning (01:04:53.101)
is ultimately what influences.

Rachel Denning (01:04:58.765)
your family and your circle of influence. And I would be so bold as to say that it is a foundational piece to living an extraordinary family life to take individual responsibility first for your health. I recently just finished a book this week that addressed this and I worked with a couple clients, one client this morning.

And he said that very thing. He says the very most important thing, because that was a question. I said, what's the most important thing you can focus on right now to level up your entire life, to just ensure your own success? And he's like, I have got to make sure that I am in a phenomenal physical, mental, emotional condition. Like that my body and being are in tip top condition because I can't show up for my family, for my work. I cannot be 100 % engaged and present.

if I've got aches and pains and fatigues and illnesses and problems. And so really this all kind of circles back of like your individual responsibility and accountability for your health is a core foundational principle and practice to living an extraordinary family life. And I can understand how some might argue, like, okay, well, what about your responsibility for protecting others in their health? And I think it circles back to this.

big overarching principle that we view the whole world and life through is like the very best thing that you can do for mankind is to make the most of yourself. When you're a better being, you're better for them and that includes health. I would argue there isn't anything better than an amazing immune system and being just absolutely healthy yourself to be less of a threat and more of an asset.

like less of a liability and more of an asset to the people around you. Exactly. So like, again, me being in a world -class phenomenal condition health is actually the best thing I can do for my neighbors too. And the truth is the more time and energy we spend as a society focusing on, and this sounds weird and counterintuitive, focusing on ourselves, meaning focusing on making the most of ourselves and improving ourselves.

Rachel Denning (01:07:19.853)
and figuring out where we can do better and be better instead of looking out at everybody else and trying to get them to do the things we think they should be doing, that's a lot of energy spent. And to me, that's one of the major frustrations and challenges that we find ourselves in this crazy time right now is that there's a lot of energy spent trying to tell everyone else what they should be doing.

because rather than operating from a place of...

Rachel Denning (01:07:54.957)
I don't even know what the word is. Operating from a place of trust, trusting that other human beings around us are somewhat competent and have somewhat of a brain to be able to make good decisions, it's almost like we believe everyone else has their brains turned off and we have to be telling them what to do because they're not smart enough to figure it out on their own.

And just like with parenting, if you have that parenting approach, all you end up doing is creating a divide in your own family that results in rebellion and harsh feelings and... You actually create less competent children. Exactly. You do. You create less competence because so much energy is focused on resisting...

the enforcing or the restrictions that instead, and this, oh my gosh, yes, this happens all the time. We see this all the time in our coaching and with the parents and youth we work with, that when you create this environment of competition between parent and child, parent and teen, where now they're fighting so much over the issues that no,

time, energy, or attention goes into figuring out actually what the other one wants and then working on creating that. Your kids can't focus on who they really want to become and be authentic to themselves and make the decisions that will actually benefit them today and tomorrow and in the long run because they're putting so much energy into fighting you over you not being in control of their life. And I think that this is a similar situation.

that we're seeing in the world right now is so much energy is going into fighting these, from a certain perspective, minuscule points, the branches, right? Like Thoreau says, for every thousand hacking away at the branches, there's one striking at the root. We're not striking at the root.

Rachel Denning (01:10:11.181)
We're not getting - As a society. As a society. But we, as Rachel and I and our family and our community here, we are kind of root -focused people. That is the goal. That is the point of our podcast. That is the point of our coaching. That is the point of everything we're doing, is to focus on the root. The root solutions that lead to...

Great, now I lost my metaphor. I was gonna say downstream, but that doesn't fit into a tree. So now what do I do with this? Focus on upstream solutions that prevent the downstream problems. And instead of, ultimately, yes, in my mind, masks and vaccines for COVID are just hacking at branch solutions. They're not the root cause.

They're not the root cause of the problems in society. They're not the root cause of the diseases themselves, the disease itself. And so it's only symptom management focused solution. It's not an actual solution that solves the real problem. That's what I think.

Okay. Okay. I think that's all. We could go on but we won't because this is enough talk of COVID for a while. Thanks you guys. Love you. Reach upward.