#167 How to Get Your Spouse on Board -- Plus Why Your Marriage Needs a 'Breaking Point'

Rachel Denning (00:10.638)
Hey, welcome back to the podcast. In this episode, Greg and I are answering some often asked questions about how to get your spouse on board. This could be getting them on board with your big dreams and goals or simply on board with the process of growing and improving. There's nothing worse than starting to learn, grow and develop as a person and then to feel that your spouse is being left behind or even worse, creating their own self sabotage. One question we received said, as I have focused hard on self improvement over the last 18 months, I've not seen my

wife doing much to try to improve with me. It's been hard not to judge her and to become frustrated with her. It's been especially true with her parenting. It's extremely painful to observe her parent and I'm trying to think of what might be affecting her so negatively. We will discuss several approaches that can be used to help in tricky situations like this one. We will explain what a breaking point is and why every marriage needs to have at least one or several of them.

This episode is sponsored by our Creating an Extraordinary Marriage Bundle. Why settle for a good or okay marriage when you can have an extraordinary one? Marriage is not static. It's constantly in a state of flux. So if you're not actively working on growing closer in your marriage, then by default, you are working on your divorce and you cannot afford to spend even one day working on your divorce. If you're not already being proactive, it's time to make a change. Many of us believe that if our spouse would change, then our marriage would be better.

And this is true, but the truth is you can't wait around for your spouse to change. And it's within your power to improve your marriage, even if your spouse won't change. That's the good news. It only takes one person to be the tide and to make a difference in your marriage. And that person is you. Learn how to create regular daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly rituals to remind you that you're a man and woman in love and that you're building a legacy together.

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Rachel Denning (02:27.79)
buckle up this one's gonna be a doozy because it comes up all the time it's super important we have some answers but I don't know that we're confident that we have the answer but it's definitely something that needs to be addressed yeah we were literally just sitting here and I'm like yeah I don't know what the answer is

We receive these questions that are really great. We're going to... This is funny. Wait, I got to stop you. I don't know what the answer is. We should make a podcast. I know. Exactly. I have no clue what the answer is. Let's record it and make a podcast. But it's something that comes up a lot. In fact, it's...

one of the most common questions we've been asked over the years is how do I get my spouse on board with what I'm doing, what I'm interested in. And somehow that usually relates to growing, improving, making life changes.

and that's what we're going to talk about today. So the feeling or the frustration or the direct question is often, how can I help my spouse improve?

Or it often comes in the variation of like, man, I've been really growing. I've been working on myself. I'm really making some changes. I would love for my spouse to grow with me. And that doesn't seem to be happening. Or it's also, I've got some big dreams and goals that I want to achieve and my spouse is not on board with them. Because it requires growth and change and transformation. We both have to work together to get somewhere and you can't do it alone. And especially in a family.

Rachel Denning (04:10.256)
unit. It's significantly harder and or leads to conflict when they're not both on board. Right. And resentment, frustration, loneliness, there's some pride that can slip in there of like, hey now I'm awake, you should wake up, hey I'm growing, you should grow.

So some pride can sneak in but sometimes it's just pure genuine love. I love you so much I want to go somewhere Please come with me come with me because it benefits me it benefits us it benefits the kids it benefits you you'll be a better happier person if you grow so those of you who are listening who are who are like Rachel and me like we are

just crazy passionate about growth and improvement and learning. And we realized that not everyone's like that. Not every marriage or relationship is like that. And so that is where it's unique for us and that is one of the reasons why we don't necessarily know all the answers because...

We were attracted to each other because we both had this love of learning and growth and we recognized that in our 20s and said, yeah, I want you. So that gave us a unique advantage of wanting to grow together. Exactly. And we have grown together. I mean, we are vastly different people than we were when we got married, but we've taken the growth journey together. So it hasn't driven us apart. It's actually brought us closer.

Because if we can visualize that for a second, that's where so much pain, resentment, frustration comes from is when one spouse really starts to take a path of growth and the other either stays stagnant or grows slowly or in some rare cases kind of digresses, that creates this chasm in between the couples that's really hard to reconcile. And so we acknowledge that. This can be really painful and difficult.

Rachel Denning (06:21.519)
But that being said, there is definitely one area in our life where we did not start out on the same footing and was a source of contention for many years and that was the area of exercise because when we met you were very much into exercising. I mean it was a very important part of your life. In fact it had been a therapeutic part of your life in your teenage years.

and it was critical to you. I was on the other side of like I don't think I'd ever exercised in my life. I had a deep abhorrence for sweating. To sweating. I still don't like to sweat, I'll be honest.

Okay, and so that was something, if there's one area where we can relate to what this looks like and feels like, it's definitely in that area. And so we understand that a lot of couples have that, but in multiple areas of their life. And saying that, that doesn't mean we see eye to eye on everything. But because of our mutual.

foundation on principles of growth in general, it's made it easier for us to find solutions to problems because we do share that foundation. And occasionally, perhaps there won't be a solution to certain things. And so you'll have to think through and make some decisions around that, like what that means if there legitimately may not be a solution. I'm going to say...

pretty boldly here and confidently, there's usually a solution. Like, there's usually a solution. It's a rare, rare instance when there's just legitimately not a solution. And it does happen, but for the most part, there are solutions, and we'll get into that, but like, there's so much you can do and ought to do and perhaps have to do before you just say, hey, there's no solution to this. Well, and when you say no solution,

Rachel Denning (08:27.053)
Are you talking about that like divorce is the solution or the solution is you just live a less.

You just have a less fulfilling relationship than you could have otherwise. Yeah. So that's, and I guess that's the individual decision of like you, you have to decide, okay, if there, if there genuinely isn't a solution to this one thing, do I just accept it and deal with it and adjust myself to it? Like Frankl said, like he, Victor Frankl said, when we can no longer change our circumstances, we are left to change ourselves. So that's an option or yeah, you settle for something that's less fulfilling because that,

that would have been a major part but it was not or do you say you know what that that's a deal breaker for me and and I would end the divorce or end the marriage and get a divorce over this thing and we certainly have seen that over the years we've seen couples who get divorced because one spouse starts growing

and pursuing big dreams and goals and the other one doesn't want to and it does lead to divorce. So, I mean that is the harsh reality of the situation, the circumstance. It is hard, it is real.

but we're gonna of course focus on what can be done. Yes. Because obviously we're, don't jump to that. We're not saying jump to that. This is not an episode about leading to the end. Why you should get divorced? This is a chance to hear like really lean in and we're gonna be giving you some tools and strategies, some philosophies and mindsets of how to build an absolutely extraordinary marriage. You guys know how passionate we are about this and about family.

Rachel Denning (10:05.517)
In fact, Rachel and I recently have been discussing with the new year and all the big goals we have. We're really narrowing in our whole focus and gigantic emphasis to help you and our followers and subscribers like really build the framework, the systems, the structures all around families. So, and Rachel and I am too passionate about, super passionate about education.

So family education and then just family itself, marriage, parenting, lifestyle. Family development. Family development, yes, exactly. And then of course I'm doing all my work with men that I'm just so thrilled about, so excited about.

In fact, I was planning today the first man camp of 2022 and it's going to be epic. With CRAV training. Emergency medical training and firearms and hand -to -hand combat. All the cool man stuff. All the man stuff. Oh, it's awesome. But family is such a big focus. So we are going to focus on that and like the legitimate ways to...

help your marriage level up first and foremost by focusing on you and what you can do individually. So I take responsibility for me. And then if there is anything that I can do to help my spouse, and then we're going to get to what we call the breaking point. I think marriages need to have an established breaking point. And sometimes they'll have more than one breaking point.

Right, you could have lots and lots of breaking points. And we're going to talk about this. And so you really want to hear this part because I really think they are critical to the growth of a marriage. So that's going to be cool. Yeah, we'll get into that. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but I think you're spot on. Okay, so first and foremost, number one, you have to grow.

Rachel Denning (12:12.845)
and you have to improve and you have to make yourself better. And I'm just gonna say this right up front and keep emphasizing it. It has to be obvious. Right, it has to be so palpable, not in a prideful way, not in a look how much better I am, but that it's undeniable.

And if you have to tell your spouse how much better you are, you're not that much better. Exactly. Let your results do the talking. And again, Nod and I told you so, Nod, look at me. Like you just are seriously growing and it's obvious. But sometimes that is what actually starts to create the problems because your spouse starts to notice.

and like the crabs in the bucket, starts wanting to pull you back down because they're saying, wait a second, we used to just sit on the couch and watch Netflix and now you're out working out and you're reading all these books and you're doing all these things. It starts to make, when your spouse starts to notice, they do start to get uncomfortable. This is human nature because anytime we're around people who are like us, we feel comfortable. But when we start to notice that they're,

no longer so much like us. In fact, they're starting to be different than us. It makes us question our own behaviors, our own actions, our own ideals, and that makes us uncomfortable. And so... Because it feels or can feel threatening. Yes.

Right exactly so it feels threatening so where you used to sit in bed watching Netflix comfortably junk food and growing together around your midsection Now you feel like you're going apart The first response is intimidation and threat and fear and like oh no What if I get left behind now? This is this is fascinating human psychology?

Rachel Denning (14:19.149)
The fear and threat of being left behind often turns into, I'm not going anywhere. Exactly. Digging in your heels. Yeah. And so I'm like, dang, babe, look at you go. Ooh. And I turn around and go the opposite direction because maybe I get resentful at your growth. Yeah. And it's obviously tied into our own insecurities because we think, wow, my spouse is getting in shape. They're going to look more attractive. They're going to...

not like me as much because I'm not as attractive as I was when we met. Like there's all of these pieces of human psychology going into this that becomes very complex of why you're feeling threatened because your spouse is growing. So a lot of times when people are messaging us and saying, how do I get my spouse on board? I guarantee you that one of the first things they're dealing with is their spouse is feeling threatened and afraid. And so there's this element of

of the battle of the wills going on because the other spouse that's not growing and changing is like, I want to just keep being me and I want you to accept it. I want you to be okay with that. I want you to love me for who I am. Yes.

So it's almost like you kind of stand your ground and put your little flag in the ground there and say, because again, threatening the jealousy, like you mentioned, or insecurities or whatever else. And so you just kind of plant that there and say, no, this is where I'm staying. Can't you just love me as I am? But again, it's fear of the unknown.

fear of the process of growth because all of us have those kind of fears where we're like oh yeah I want to be better but I don't want to sweat. Really uncomfortable. Right. And what if I fail? What if I try and fail? Or what if I what if I try and it actually works and I succeed then that means my friends won't like me. Yes exactly. Or I'll have to stop you know whatever like there's so many reasons and

Rachel Denning (16:23.309)
So the first challenge that you have with trying to get your spouse to change is that, and this is ironic and counterintuitive, you actually have to be okay with them not changing. You actually have to accept them and love them for who they are and where they're at.

and recognize that it's a part of their journey. It's a part of their process. And they're gonna be more willing, this is the same with parenting, they're gonna be more willing to look inside at what it is they really want when they feel like they don't have to be on the defensive with you. When they're no longer trying to justify their position and justify why they should stay where they are and the way they are, it provides this space for them to,

look inside at what they really want and when they look inside at what they really want they realize that they do want something different they do want to be better they do want to be healthier they do want to be more excited and enthused by life but there's no space to do that when they feel like they're constantly fighting you about whether they should get better or not and the the great irony is they will fight you even

Even I think, I think the vast majority of people know they need to be better and they want to be better, even if they're fighting you. So let's assume that your spouse knows they need to be better, wants to be better, but it's fighting you for some other cause. Like, you know, it's like, Rachel wants me to be better and I'm pushing back. But let's say, for example, I know men need to be needed by their woman, right? That's one of these things like, not in this.

We just need, I need Rachel to love me and want me and need me, right? It's just this kind of manly piece. And if I feel like she won't need me, doesn't respect me, that's a huge one, which I think will be an element on its own thing. Like if she doesn't respect me or.

Rachel Denning (18:35.309)
somehow feel threatened in that connection or her acceptance of me. If you feel like I only need you and want you if you get better, then that feels vulnerable and intimidating. And if I'm fixed -minded about it or insecure about it, instead of going, wow, I better level up, you're like, go jump in a lake. I don't need you, right? I'm a lion through my teeth.

and saying, no, I'm out, no, whatever. If that's the condition of your love, right? And I'll literally lie through my teeth and be incongruent and insincere in my own truth, my inner knowing. And it's like this self -sabotage that people do, which is so fascinating. Which is like...

Rebellion itself in a way. I mean rebellion often and I'm speaking from experience because I was a rebellious teenager rebellion happens because you're trying to get back at Whoever is holding power over you, but you end up doing things that hurt yourself It's that self -sabotage that you're talking about and I that that dynamic plays out in the marriage relationship in a situation like this because the one spouse

is growing and improving and now the spouse who's left behind, so to say, feels that you have some sort of power over them in that you want them to be better and now they have to fight that and they have to try to get back at you for that, even if it hurts themself. So part of the fight back is self -sabotage. Oh, absolutely. It's just really weird.

weird thing we do is, you know, it's like, I'll hurt myself in order to try to get back at you, which is so silly. Because I know it will hurt you too. Right. So if one thing that may work, I think is what we're saying here, make sure your spouse knows how much you love and adore them. Yeah. This is really a place of acceptance and love. You have to remove that element. I think that's one of the key pieces to this. Wait, remove what element?

Rachel Denning (20:57.709)
Sorry. Clarify that. Remove the element of power, this power struggle, this competition. There has to be a genuine love and acceptance. And that's hard to do because we think, well, yeah, but I want them to be better because that'll be better for all of us. And that is true. That is the truth. But the other side of that coin of truth is that they are lovable as they are.

You have to have compassion for them. You have to have acceptance for them. You have to fully, I already said acceptance, but really you have to fully accept them for who they are now. And if they never changed, still just love them.

that interestingly, that feeling of acceptance will often open up the pathway to growth. Exactly. Yes. They feel, okay, I don't feel threatened here. I feel accepted. I feel loved. Okay, that means I'm not at risk if I give this a try. Exactly. Right. So we're trying to remove the elements of risk. Yeah. And when we had our own thing going on with exercise, I know that...

For me, the first time I ever really considered doing exercise was when I finally felt like...

Rachel Denning (22:30.189)
you just accepted me not doing it. When I finally felt like this power struggle was over, then I was open to, okay, well, actually, do I want to exercise? Because before it was just a matter of, Greg wants me to exercise, so I feel this pressure to exercise, and I don't want to do it, so I'm not gonna do it. And especially if I'm mad at him, I'm not gonna do it. Like, that's the whole dynamic going on there. But once you remove that, that's no longer happening, and now it's just between me.

and myself. What do I want? Do I want to be healthier? Do I want to be fitter? Do I want to be stronger? Well, yeah, I do. So I need to take charge of that. I need to do something about it. It's not about me and Greg. It's about me and me. You said something there that I think is so insightful.

You said especially I wouldn't do it if I'm mad at him and often we allow ourselves to get angry at our spouse simply because our spouse wants us to do something. And it's usually because we know we want to do it too and we're angry at ourselves. Right? One of the most common things I see in myself and in people I work with is we just have this kind of inner compass that we know when we're living below our potential. We don't like ourselves.

And if your spouse picks up on it and happens to mention something oh Man, they just hit the The I don't like you either nerve Right, which they're not necessarily saying that but it's already tender and again, this is why we have spouses you guys because The one thing that always astounds me is the human capacity to not want to do something and keep doing it. Mm -hmm. It's unbelievable

Like self -loathing is like, oh, I just can't stand myself because I waste all my time. I just waste time every day. And what do I do? Well, I just keep wasting time. We have this unbelievable capacity to linger and wallow in the thing we don't like about ourselves. So that's where marriage is really good because your spouse should call you out. Yeah. Like, hey, stop that. It's ridiculous. And we're alluding here to the breaking points. Like that's coming up where you just say, no, that's...

Rachel Denning (24:50.701)
That's lame. That's unacceptable. Let's go. Because as human beings, we will stay even when we don't like ourselves. We'll stay, keep doing the things we don't like about ourselves. Right. We often don't like ourselves because we're not doing likable things. But when we have our spouse to blame and use as an excuse, and I would notice that about myself, you know, early in our marriage when I didn't want to exercise, but if I was upset with you,

Who was that much easier to not do it? Because I had another reason to not do it. And so you have to remove that dynamic that's going on here or else you're actually making it easier for your spouse to not do the things that they know they should do but are resistant to doing. Yes. Okay. Which brings me to another viable option. And I know this is going to sound a little crazy, but roll with me here.

remove strategically remove any reasons for your spouse to be angry at you or resentful towards you or Anything they can use against you again. This comes back to what I was saying earlier It's like when you level up so much. It's so obvious like if if I'm Genuinely, this is this isn't a show. I'm not putting on a performance here if I genuinely in becoming the absolute

best husband I can be to Rachel, that I'm just simultaneously removing any excuses or reasons for her to be upset at me. You guys get what I'm saying here? And you have done a genuinely good job at doing that because I have very few reasons to ever be upset at you because you are just such a great husband. I was not fishing for that. I know, but I just have to say it because it's true. And it's...

It's, I want you to strive to be your best self. And the more you do it, the more your spouse will want to follow along. Because what Rachel was just saying is like, if we have something, let's say I do something really annoying and Rachel keeps asking me not to do it, but I keep doing it. Now she's got leverage, right? What's the word? She's got something.

Rachel Denning (27:14.573)
she has something there to hold on to, right? And so when I'm like, hey, babe, why don't you do this? Oh yeah. Well, I asked you to not do that and you keep doing it. And I'm like, that's totally unrelated. Doesn't matter. It's related. There's, there's whatever you call it, leverage or ammo or whatever you, your, your spouse. If you give your spouse something to beat you with, you're going to get a whooping. You know what I'm saying? So,

The more I level up sincerely and authentically and Rachel's gonna test it. Here's another piece. If ever I say I'm gonna change or I'm trying to change, you can guarantee your spouse is gonna try to test that. You're like, oh yeah, really? You really are gonna change? Let's see how long that lasts. I've heard this before. But when you change for real, it's...

It's no longer a leverage point against you. This is so weird that we have to talk about this, but this is true. It's true in human, just in humanity and in marriage. But if you're, if you're just helping out and being kind and being good and doing all the things you want to do and need to do, if you're fulfilling all your spouse's needs genuinely,

They have nothing to hold against you. Yes, exactly. That's what I'm getting. And if you remove all the things they can hold against you, then they are left genuinely to themselves. Right. It's like, hey, this is on you. Yeah. I love you. I accept you. This is about you. And I'm on my own journey and loving and enjoying it. You've got to take your journey. And I'm not giving you any more reason or excuses now to not.

along and grow. Whereas again, and I can see this in my mind, I see it play out all the time, if I'm just being kind of a lazy dad or a disconnected dad or a poor provider... Not helping out. Yeah, I don't help around the house. Let's say I'm a poor listener. I know this one's gigantic, gentlemen. If you suck at listening to your wife, then you can just kiss goodbye any hopes.

Rachel Denning (29:31.053)
of her wanting to grow with you. Yeah. In fact, she needs that listening element in order to grow from her spouse. She needs that listening support. And she needs that in order for her to want to grow with you. So there's a perfect example. If I don't listen well to Rachel, that's this block that she can...

use if she wanted to just say no I'm not going well and I think this brings up another point that's a key element to this whole issue and that's that if your spouse isn't changing or doesn't want to change besides everything we just talked about part of that is because there's likely some needs that are not being fulfilled there are very likely some dynamics in your marriage that are off

that are making them feel unfulfilled, unsatisfied, unheard, and that's going to be a huge barrier in their growth and development because of everything else we already mentioned. Absolutely, 100%. Now, some of you might, in your logical brain, might be like, well, what does that have to do with this? Everything. Everything. Yeah, it's all connected. So, major points there. So, on one side, what I was saying is like,

remove all the excuses by being your genuine best self and on the other side what Rachel's saying is make sure you're doing everything you can to really meet the needs of your spouse. If your spouse has all of his or her needs being met.

They feel safe, they feel supported, they feel secure and from that place of security they're able to look inward and say, where do I need to go? Who do I need to become? And they want to. And they want to. I want to level up because right here all of my needs are being met. Exactly. So another piece of this pie that is so critical is you have got to make sure you are meeting your spouse's needs.

Rachel Denning (31:47.533)
This is a major, major piece right here. So if, if any way your spouse is feeling neglected, accurate or not. Right. Like I know a lot of men, if they feel like they're not having their sexual needs met. And again, I, yes, I use, I intentionally use the word needs and we could get into that, right? It's not survival need. He'll die without it, but your marriage will die without it. I promise you that.

or if her need to be heard is not met. I mean, there's quite a few needs we could get into that, but if the need isn't being met, that is a leverage point for resistance. If nothing else, it's a wedge between that connection. And the connection is key to the shared growth and development. Yes.

that's missing if the wedge is there then as you grow you grow apart instead of growing together. So you have to remove the wedges. Okay so if you're sitting here and and I'm gonna get I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest that all of you do this whether your spouse is regularly whether this is an issue for you like you feel like you're going or your spouse feels like they're going and you're not. I think this affects every marriage I really do it one way or another affects every marriage even if you're

Like if you feel like you're really growing together, I want you to just pause and take this podcast as an opportunity to really reflect on this. Where do I need to level up that's just been just a knack? Subpar. It's been subpar. Maybe your whole marriage or just recently. Where am I not meeting needs? And ask. Don't be afraid to ask. Just be like, babe, what needs and wants and desires do you have that I'm not?

And then be willing to really listen and read between the lines and not just completely discount it as being irrelevant or unnecessary or because very often when someone brings something up even if on the surface it seems

Rachel Denning (34:00.685)
inconsequential, there's often something deeper connected to it that it's representing. It's the symptom of a deeper problem. And in all likelihood, this has come up multiple times with couples I've coached and individuals too, where there's something that's been going on perhaps the entire marriage or for years or decades. I had a client recently, it's like, yeah, I've been...

I've been kind of slacking off in this area for 20 plus years of marriage and my spouse has reached a breaking point. No, no breaking point, but has consistently brought it up again and again and again. And it's like, I know it has been painful to my spouse. And I'm like, well, okay, right there. You need to go own that and have that conversation and genuinely apologize.

And then genuinely change. And genuinely change. But like, but think about that. Think how much that has stacked, emotional stacking. If I've been negligent of something you've wanted me to do for two decades, I can expect a full volcano of your hurt and anguish and resentment. And I need to be like a man and a rock here and just bear the full load of all that coming out so you can get it out. Which...

That is actually an example of when a breaking point could be used effectively from the other spouse's side. Because sometimes that's what happens. In order to be the good spouse or whatever, you know, like to just avoid contention, we just put up with it for two decades instead of reaching a breaking point, which we're going to go into deeper still in a minute. Well, hold on, I want to say something else before we do, but then we will.

Because the breaking point can be used as a point of transformation. One other thing I wanted to mention and kind of earlier I was going to say it, I'm going to say it now in regards to accepting and that's just this whole idea of looking for the good I think. Because yeah, we want our spouse to change, we want them to be better.

Rachel Denning (36:25.005)
But in order to accept them, we genuinely, genuinely just need to be looking for the good in them. And point it out. Yes. If you can point out the good that your spouse does and the good person that they are, that is going to be huge for helping them feel loved and accepted. And then...

helping to provide that space for inward reflection. And using positive reinforcement and complimenting and praising and acknowledging, that is fuel for positive growth and development. And essentially the positive reinforcement is just simply like, oh, thank you so much. I really...

really appreciate it that you did that or that you do this or that was awesome or little notes or emails or text or just saying like making an effort to vocalize or write whatever the the things you admire the things you want more of right right so you're looking like looking for the good and I want more like I admire this about you I respect this about you I want to honor this about you like you're always so good at that and don't underestimate how much

Your spouse wants to please you and wants to make you proud. Where instead what's happening is you're spending too much, you're spending all this time pointing out where they could be better, what they could be doing different. And so they don't feel that love and acceptance. They don't feel appreciated. And so that's why they dig in their heels and are rebellious. So if I were to take a guess, if this was a challenge in your marriage and I went in and just kind of was a silent observer,

I would guess that this is one of the very first things that need to happen is more positive communication, less negative communication. Exactly. And we see this in subtle ways all the time. All the time. In almost all relationships of people we interact with. There's just very subtle ways where people, where the spouses are quote unquote tearing each other down. It doesn't seem like that to them.

Rachel Denning (38:43.437)
but they're emphasizing the negative instead of the positive. And we've seen it. We've seen it in interactions with people we've traveled with all around the world and even on our trips. I mean, we get to observe this a lot. And so if there's loving connection, if there's touching and hand -holding and signs of affection and acceptance, yeah, words of affirmation and praise and acceptance and love,

Like that needs to be happening a lot. Every day. Every day. Every day needs to be happening again and again. Multiple times. For your spouse to feel like, yeah, I'm okay. Yeah, we're in a place. I can chase down some growth. There's at least two more things I want to hit on this before we hit breaking points. And I think they're related. One is be respectable.

The more your spouse respects you, the more likely they are to follow your lead in growth and change and development, like in making transformations. But if there are areas, and it kind of gets, it circles back to what I said before, but if there's areas where they don't respect you and the respectability's not there, the admiration's not there, they're far less likely to do it. And the related piece to that is what Rachel and I say all the time is be the tide.

You want to be when the tide comes in it lifts all the boats. You want to be the tide in your family. You want to lift all the boats. And we've been teaching that for years and the families that do it they they come back like it's amazing. I never expect like change is happening. I'm just leading the way but it has to be done with diplomacy and tax.

You can't go in and be like, I'm growing why isn't anyone else growing? That's that's not the tide. Well, because true respectability comes naturally. It comes by watching someone do things that are respectable and inspiring. Whether that's, I mean that's something as simple as a certain skill you might have and an ability to in athletics or fixing something or building something or cooking something.

Rachel Denning (40:57.901)
to just who you are as a person and how you interact with children or how you interact with other people. These are all amazing positive things that I admire about you. But when you're a respectable person, that's inspiring, that's attractive, and yeah, it provides that secure foundation for wanting to follow.

in that path of growth and development of becoming respectable and admirable yourself. Now, I kind of feel like I want to touch on something here that is a key point and I know that it's a challenge in a lot of marriages and that is the aspect of money and providing and I...

I don't know, I just feel like there's people that need to hear this and I'm still even, I think we're even trying to articulate it ourselves still, but it's this idea, especially from the wife, that she has, especially if she's not an income earning member of the family, which isn't always the case, there's plenty of two income earning families, some of them the wife is the income earner, but if she feels like,

She's not, she doesn't have the funds, the money she needs to do the things she wants to do. She feels powerless. And that's a big inhibitor. That's a horrible feeling. It's a horrible feeling, it is. If she can't, whatever, buy a printer, because she needs to for home school, or if she can't go buy some new clothes because she feels like she needs them. Now I get it that...

The ugly side of this is the spouse that goes out and spends all the money without regard and without thought. Now, I think that's actually a perversion of a natural need. Usually, I think that takes place when a spouse has been so constricted in their spending and it's been such a struggle or a pain point for so long that they just go to the extreme of like, I'm just gonna go out, I don't care, I'll go into debt, I'll spend, because I need to.

Rachel Denning (43:23.565)
That's like the perversion on the sexual side, I think, you know, where that can happen in sexual relationships. But it's this delicate balance where a woman needs to feel like, and I'm speaking for women mostly because that's my experience and that's what I've seen, a woman needs to feel like she has the money that she needs. And if not, she starts to be resentful.

for the spouse that's not providing it. Or we've also seen it where then she'll just step up and do it herself, which is fine, she's capable of doing that, but she can then also start to resent her husband for not having done it. Right, exactly. That is a very common issue. I want to hit on the psychology first. This isn't like, yeah, that's very important, because this isn't like...

Men and women need to have their traditional roles and stay in them and he needs to provide. That's not what we're saying. We're just saying this is something we've noticed psychologically that women seem to more often have that sense of needing to have enough money provided and because very often there are years when they can't do that because they're caring for children and don't want to. There are many of our listeners, they want to keep those traditional roles where

The woman wants to be the homemaker and raise the kids and even educate the kids with a lot of home scores right in our in our Community here and they want that traditional role I want it I want to touch on the psychology of it and then talk about man's perspective too But the psychology of it is in anything Let this sink in in anything any part of your life where you feel like it is? Futile like it doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't change anything you feel like help us

or like you can't, you're powerless, you can't do anything about it. That is the most demoralizing, dehumanizing, soul -crushing thing and it will undo all kinds of things. It like unravels your entire being if you feel like one area of your life is completely powerless. Like I can't do anything about this and when I say it, especially if you like choose, okay, choose in this one, right? I choose to be in this role so I don't earn money. I'm completely dependent.

Rachel Denning (45:45.261)
on another person to do this for me. Which is especially the case for a pregnant or breastfeeding woman, right? Or a home, stay at home mom. They are in that place of dependence and they feel this complete frustration because, well I would try to be better, but you don't let me spend any money to try to do that. I can't go out and buy the clothes, I can't spend money on this or you get upset. So here you want me to be a better person.

but you won't give me the funds to do that. I'm helpless and I'm powerless. And I can't go get the funds myself because maybe we've agreed to this or this situation, like I'm doing this. Or I'm just swamped with babies, drowning with babies. Do you want me to ditch the family and go on the money? Like, yeah. So this becomes, and it can go both ways too. Men can feel this too, like it doesn't matter what I do. Everything I do, like it doesn't matter what I do. I feel powerless in this thing. Sex is another one.

If I just try to do everything I can. Everything she asks for. I wash all the dishes. She's like, well, you do this, do this. I do it all and still nothing. Still no sex. And it's still like, it feels so powerless and futile. And it literally starts to unravel people completely. And they'll turn to addictions. They'll turn to buffering. They'll go crazy. They'll go crazy. They'll check out of stuff. So psychologically, this is huge. That if whatever elements you have in your marriage like that, where one of you is in a position of...

Genuine dependence on the other like you got to step up. So this is where I want to talk for the men If your wife is in that role gentlemen, you have a gigantic responsibility to provide for the needs and wants of your woman and wants and if she wants to spend some money get out and figure out how to earn it Yes, you got to own that crap and if she has

expensive tastes, buckle up, buttercup, like let's go. And I'm speaking from experience here. Rachel's always been very, very good. In fact, she rarely spends money on herself. She spends fortunes on our children, which we love. But like I feel this good pressure to provide.

Rachel Denning (48:05.357)
to make sure that she has the money she wants and needs to do the things she wants and needs to do. Because from the woman's perspective again, and we're playing this out because we know that this is the case for some of these scenarios. The husband's growing, he wants his wife to improve, and she's not. This is one of those elements because from her perspective, she gets these thoughts, she gets these ideas, she gets it.

these inspirations and guess what? They're gonna cost money. And so then she has to go to the husband to ask for the money and he says no because he's going through his logical brain of it just doesn't make sense or this or that or the other. And she's saying but I felt inspired or I felt motivated or I felt excited or I felt enthused to spend money on this and you just talked me out of it. So what's the point?

And then psychologically she can make a connection from there to, oh well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to work on that other thing either. I don't have to do that. Yeah. So that's a piece. There's lots of pieces. There are a lot of pieces. Now then on the other side, if the one, and this is just, I don't know why it is this way. I don't know if it's just our evolutionary history and the nature of childbearing that men have traditionally been providers. And so women have this role of.

wanting and needing to be provided for. Not that women can't provide for themselves, especially nowadays. Not that women don't like to work because they do and it's great. But if the roles are switched where the woman, the wife is making more than the husband, that can also sometimes be a problem because she may be resentful. She may have less respect for him. He might be resentful. She loses her respect, which is a big deal.

He now feels in that place of helplessness, of having to go to her to ask for money, to spend on things he wants. So either way, it can provide a challenge and you have to be aware of that because it's going to play a part in this whole, hey, why don't you get on board with growing with me? If they don't feel like they're in an equal spot with you, financially being one of those, it's going to put some friction on them.

Rachel Denning (50:34.445)
So, get clear. Have these conversations. Yeah. I guess I know not all relationships are at a point where you can have these conversations. Well, this brings us to the breaking point, which is important. Yeah. And I think this ties right in because like you're saying, have these conversations. Well, many of us avoid having these conversations because we don't want to have the contention. We don't want it to get ugly. We don't want to...

deal with the actual issue at hand. We'd rather just go along to get along. We'd rather just smooth things out. And what we have seen in the long term, that's not a great strategy. In fact, that is a damning strategy in that it's preventing your growth and development. The very best thing that you can do, and I think this is a strategy we've taken on, that I think has worked great.

the very best thing you can do is get to the heart of the issue as fast as possible, even if it gets kind of intense or uncomfortable. The faster you get there, the faster you can resolve it, the faster you can move on and actually keep growing. And so the breaking point essentially is that just very often it looks like a very intense, uncomfortable, probably tears.

Conversation now sometimes fighting for us. It didn't necessarily include fighting although there was plenty of heated disagreements I have to throw this in there. It does not and I would say must not turn to insulting You can disagree it can get intense. This is not You don't excuse here people down. It's not excuse. It's not a reason. It's not justification Don't tear each other down. Don't insult each other. I

And for if you're the spouse listening to this and your spouse insults you, okay, don't insult back. Like this isn't this isn't a mudslinging hurting you back stabbing each other and own your crap. Well, circle back here like if if we get if we get to a breaking point and we lay down a line either you to me or me to you. Like be ready to unload the whole thing.

Rachel Denning (53:00.461)
Your breaking point might unbreak the dam or open up the volcano. You have to be ready for that. And I am going to say that it is going to bring out the phrase we use is the rats in the cellar. It comes from a quote from C .S. Lewis that if you run down into the cellar and you flip the lights on, you'll see all the rats go scurrying. Where if you go down slowly and you make lots of noise and you give plenty of heads up,

the rats are going to hide long before you get there, it doesn't mean there's no rats. When you get to a breaking point, it is going to bring out the ugly stuff. And so unfortunately, a part of that may include some ugly stuff because it's going to get brought up. If you've been in the habit or if you've been raised to yell, scream, fight, throw things, that's going to come up and you have to learn how to get past that and find a new way to communicate. Now, the reason you haven't done that yet is because you usually have avoided it.

because you don't want to face them. The key is to develop new strategies so that you can disagree, you can have these hard conversations without it turning to the super ugly stuff. I'm thinking here of this imagery, Rachel, I talk about facing the abyss. Or like Carl Jung talked about, facing the shadow. This is an example of facing an abyss of...

when you get to a breaking point and you set a standard and like one author said, you put your foot down not on top of your spouse's foot, but you put your foot down. And it's important. It is. It's important, Mary. It's like, I got to have some boundaries here and I've got to put my foot down. Now, be extremely careful, please, and thoughtful about where you put your foot down. Yeah. Think about it beforehand before you put it down. Don't put down your foot about something that's really insignificant or inconsequential.

Like make sure it's a big deal. When you drop your foot, it better be for something that matters. Yeah, so it's essentially you're reaching this point of saying, no, we are going to have this conversation. We are going to talk to this, talk about this. We're going to get to the bottom of this. Now, part of that in doing this in a wise way is making sure that you're going to have the right space and environment to do that. Like the worst time to reach a breaking point is on the way to work.

Rachel Denning (55:25.549)
when the kids are getting ready for school in front of all of them. Like that's horrible timing. That's not the time to have this type of conversation. You need to know it's coming and you need to have a time and space to do it. So maybe you put the movie on for kids. Maybe you go away to a hotel. Like know it's coming. Know you're going to have this conversation. And don't like blindside your spouse with it. And yeah, don't blindside your spouse per se unless they are.

absolutely resistant to it, won't do it, and then find a way to corner them if you have to somewhere to have this breaking point conversation because they need to happen. And we have seen how absolutely powerful and transformative they are for your marriage when you can have those conversations and then make it through the chaos to the other side.

And it is, it's a messy process. You are going into the abyss, you are going into the chaos and you're trying to sort out what in the heck is going on, how do I feel, what do you feel, why, where does that come from, and what do we do about it? And I have to be able, if I'm gonna do this and face the abyss, if I'm gonna put my foot down, or Rachel puts her foot down, right? I have to be able to sit well.

I was gonna go on the receiving side. Yeah, I was gonna receive I have to sit here and be able to receive whatever is in her heart and mind She has to be able to say to me whatever she needs to say and I need to just As painful as it might be. Oh man painful as Defensive as I might want to be or whatever. I just need to okay. Just let it all out and I gotta be man enough to Hear it. Yeah, but on the other side of that

I shouldn't be intentionally trying to say things that are painful. I should just be trying to speak the truth as honestly as I can diplomatically if I can, but I'm also not going to soften it too much if it's kind of harsh or rough around the edges. So again, thank you for pointing that out. This is not your chance to be manipulative or to say things that you know will purposely hurt.

Rachel Denning (57:45.517)
You're not stabbing. You're drawing a line in this hand. So use your stick to draw a line in this hand, not to poke it at your spouse. Like, that's not what this is for. But yes, we are advocates of drawing a line in this hand, getting to a breaking point, putting your foot down. We've seen so many marriages just drag on and on and on in mutual misery and resentment. The same repeating...

cycles of fighting and making up and Talking with nothing ever really getting resolved and we have said before like I said to Greg they just need to have a breaking point like they never actually resolve the issue because they never go to the ugliness that's there to face it and deal with it and if you never do that you never gets resolved and you perpetuate

ongoing misery for decades. So you have a few good weeks or months and then back to the problem. Exactly. And then a few good weeks and then back to the problem. And so you're just oscillating back and forth, flatlining, and you're never on an upward incline towards an extraordinary marriage because you're just constantly dealing with the same problem again and again. Over and over. You're on a flat roller coaster. And over. Exactly. It's pathetic.

So you have to be willing to face that abyss, own it, and be your best.

Rachel Denning (59:14.797)
This is all good stuff. Not easy. No, it's not easy. Pain free. And especially the breaking point conversations. They're not easy to have. They're not comfortable to have. They're challenging. They're very emotional because you're dealing with deep seated emotions on both sides. And sensitivities. They're very confusing. They're very...

destabling, unstabling? What's the word there? I don't know. Destabilizing. Yeah, that's good. Destabilizing. They're hard. But from our own experience and from working with lots of couples, they're powerful. They really are. And I think for our marriage, that is one of the things that's helped it to progress a lot, is that we are willing to have those conversations when we need.

to have them and now I mean we have such a great marriage that it's now the slightest things that get off. I'm sitting here thinking like I don't even remember. Yeah it's usually things that are very slight and we're usually very quick to get to okay let's talk about what's the deep issue here and we'll talk about it. Which because I wanted to bring this up actually when we started our marriage you guys I

We're still dating when I said, Hey babe, I will never ask you to love me as I am. Like that's my standard. I am, I have no intention ever of staying as I am. And it would be absurd for me to ask you just to love me and accept me right. We're here where I'm at. I haven't gone anywhere yet. Like I got some growing to do and.

And the idea was, yeah, love me where I'm at, but only because that's where I'm going. I'm never gonna just settle in to my own little pit of mediocrity and say, just love me right here. Because that's pathetic. That's selfish, it's low, it's inconsiderate, it's inconceivable. It's ridiculous to me. Like, no, this is just who I am, why don't you love me? That's lame.

Rachel Denning (01:01:29.645)
So we had this agreement early on. Now, if you didn't have that agreement early on, you can have that agreement now. You can start over and say, let's grow together, babe. Like, let's not settle for an okay existence. Let's not settle for a good marriage. Let's go somewhere. Let's see who we can become together. And Rachel was just such a champ, came in with that, and she has been the...

in our marriage with our seven kids. I thought you were the tied babe. Well that makes two of us, we're tied together. If you can do it together it's even better. But she just is a powerhouse of systems and strategy and order and planning and all of it. It's also sexy isn't it? Yes it is, wow. No it's awesome but like.

She comes in and she is strategic and thoughtful about making herself better and making our home better, our family culture, our family legacy, education for the kids, our business. She does everything you guys, she's in the business, she's in all of it. And that is so sexy and admirable and earns my respect and like I am...

more than willing to do anything she asks or suggests. It's true. I want to be great for her. And I'm sharing that with you because that's the key piece of this conversation here. Be that kind of person so that your spouse wants to be great with you.

and for you. Well, and then you mentioned something there that I want to add to this whole list of options before divorce. And you said, you know, if you didn't have that agreement when you started, have that conversation and set that now as an agreement. And that would be one of these, potentially one of these breaking point conversations. Because...

Rachel Denning (01:03:50.701)
if this is already happening. I mean, you should definitely apply all the things we already talked about. But one of the things to do, especially if those don't work or especially if whatever else, one of the things to do is to have this breaking point conversation of like, this is what I want. I want us to be growing together. And this is why it matters so much to me. And this is why I feel so strongly about it. And then you let your spouse say,

This is why it hurts. This is what I'm afraid of. This is what I'm terrified of. This is what I hold. This is what's holding me back. Yes. Have that conversation. Get to the heart of the issue. Get all of those things on the table so you can go look at them. Exactly. Right. Because if you notice that your spouse is deliberately avoiding doing certain things or deliberately doing other things they shouldn't or don't want to do, talk about it.

Yes, it's going to be a tough conversation. Yes, it's going to be a breaking point, but that's the point. Talk about it. Bring it up. Don't just think, oh gosh, well, I wish they would change and I wish this was working. Like, have the conversations. Even if they're going to be ugly and uncomfortable and hard and she's going to cry. Like, you need to have the conversations. That's one way that growth happens is by facing the discomfort.

And if we always avoid the discomfort, then we're also avoiding the growth. And in my mind's eye, I can hear some of you, see some of you asking like, how do I do that? How do I have that conversation? And just ask lots of questions, fewer statements, more questions, and just draw out a lot of diplomacy. Even why? Why? Why? Yeah.

Be really skillful about it. Be a droid about it. Like again, I just have to emphasize so much. No attacking. No hurting. No insulting. Just curiosity. Wondering why. Babe, like tell me what it is you want. Like why don't you want it? What's going on here? And of course, going back to the other idea, it has to be the right space. If she's in the middle of doing something or she... And sometimes you're going to have to interrupt that.

Rachel Denning (01:06:06.253)
But make sure you're going to have a chunk of time because it's going to take time. You need a few hours likely, especially for your first one. Right? You've got to have a few hours. That might take a few days. Sometimes, yes. Maybe you need to take her away. But let her know you want to be talking about some things. So it's not just she thinks you're going away. And we're using her as an example. She doesn't just think you're going away on this nice trip and then you end up fighting the whole time. She needs to know you're going to discuss some things.

You want to talk about these things. Or maybe it's a Friday night when instead of watching a movie you lock yourselves in your room and you talk. Create the space and the time to make it happen and not just spring it on her while she's doing the dishes after dinner. And get down to the real issues and then before it's ever resolved come up with real strategies about what to do about it. And be committed to changing and growing and

and rewriting your marriage and rewriting your life and recreating yourself. Just be all in to grow and learn and improve. But it has to start by facing the darkness. And get clear about it and why and all the complexities here. I just feel like all the things we've talked about and more, this isn't an exhaustive episode, but all these things and more, I think they're all needed together.

Mm -hmm. It's the whole...

the whole thing together. This whole package.

Rachel Denning (01:07:44.621)
And I can see, you know, we've just been able to work with so many couples. And I can see these little pieces and elements in each of them, like these little points of conflict. It's just like, hey, just stop with that. Those little points of conflict. The little points of conflict there.

And just come get on the same page get down to the heart of the issue. Yeah, and then go and and here's why Marriage can be so good Oh So so good so blissful so joyful the every morning you wake up and like we get to be married and then you

You go to bed every night like that. Like this, this is amazing. What a privilege, what a joy, what... I can't believe this is possible. I can't believe this is real. I'm being sincere. That's true. You're being very sincere. I'm just like, I'm like, this is amazing. I didn't think this was possible. Right? You live this storybook romance and marriage.

That's what's possible and it's possible for you too, but you gotta do the work. So much so that your spouse, you clear the runway for your spouse too and say, let's do this together. And it's amazing.

Okay, go do it. Amen. Amen. Get it done. Have it done by tonight. No, I'm just kidding. It's gonna take some time. It's a lifelong process. But it doesn't have to take that much time. Like I love to say, you maybe can't change destinations overnight, but you can absolutely change direction overnight. And you can do that tonight. You can change direction so you know what's up. And I'll just throw this in here. If you've been the spouse that hasn't been growing, this is your call.

Rachel Denning (01:09:58.541)
from me to level up. Because it's for you and it's about you, not about anyone else.

Rachel Denning (01:10:26.701)
Thank you for still being here and thank you for listening to our podcast. If you find value in it, will you do us a favor and please leave a review on Apple podcasts or any other podcast player. And if you are ready to take the next step in leveling up your family life, please visit ExtraordinaryFamilyLife .com. You can find courses and challenges and workshops and coaching in marriage, parenting, money.

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