Get answers to your questions about marriage, parenting and family life from experts and parents of 7 children!

Rachel Denning (00:10.478)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your hosts, Greg and Rachel Denning. We are now mostly settled in our new home base in southern Portugal. And it has been dreamy, man, because we've been dreaming about this and planning for it for a long time.

And even while we're out traveling and having just an epic adventure and loving it, we were still looking forward to unpacking. Man, you guys, we kept buying stuff and Turkey and Egypt has the coolest stuff.

So we just kept buying and buying and buying. Well, we started buying stuff in Norway. That's true. So we were buying stuff in all 17 countries that we went to. That's true. We probably bought something in every country. Not the Czech Republic, because we only drove through it. Oh, yeah. We couldn't stop. We were on a bus that didn't stop ever, even to go to the bathroom for our little girls. Did I tell you guys about that story? That was in Poland.

The one where I had to use a plastic bag to help Sandriana go to the bathroom on a bus. That was a doozy. That was awesome. Okay, so we ended up buying tons of stuff and we wanted to unpack. Eventually we ended up coming back here I think with 14, 15, 16 suitcases full of stuff. It was awesome. Hashtag worth it. Yeah. So now we have cool decos and pillows and lamps and candle holders. Just cool stuff.

around the world and it's fun that we integrate it into every part of our life so Turkish towels and yeah beautiful pillowcases and lamps and little seating area we just created out of yes Turkish rugs oh man so it's integrated and we're using it every day and for me it's just a reminder of of the memory.

Rachel Denning (02:13.198)
the experience. It brings back the feeling with it and the people we met, the places we saw, the smell, the taste, the sounds, all of it. It's just, ah man, it's so cool. So, so cool. So we're here, we're right by the beach. We went out paddle boarding as a family a couple days ago and it was dreamy. It was awesome. It was amazing. Which is really cool because when Rachel and I came over here on our scouting trip, we saw these cliffs and we were just walking along the top of the cliffs and

I didn't know this about her, but I was daydreaming, envisioning our whole family paddle boarding along those cliffs and hopefully finding cool caves or whatever. Turns out there was caves all over the place. Well, turns out I had had the same vision and then it happened last.

And we were out there paddling in these caves. I was like and I told her I'm like I I dreamt about like daydream about this I envisioned this and she said I did too. It was awesome. There we were doing it with our family and there were so many cool caves and just

places you could paddleboard in between and it was just so amazing and gorgeous. Dreamy and awesome. Anyways, we're loving it and living the dream. Literally living the dream. And I share that. Which is lots of work too. Yes, there's lots of work behind it. And they're always, because anything in life, you heard us say this and you understand this, but we need the reminder. Anything in life is truly worthwhile.

is gonna have a big price tag on it. And it's gonna cost something. It's not always money. A lot of times it is. Yeah. And money helps. But it's gonna cost you something. And it's gonna cost time, energy, effort, sometimes blood, sweat and tears. And sometimes mental strain. Almost always, I think I can confidently say, it's gonna require some change, some transformation, some refinement.

Rachel Denning (04:14.606)
We have to level up. I would say that that's without question. In fact, I think that's the only way it can be achieved in order to achieve this thing that you dream of. It's bigger than your current reality. That's why it's a dream and not your reality. Right. And in order for it to actually be achieved, you do have to grow into that new reality. So you have to become a different person. Yep. So in order to achieve bigger things, you have to become a bigger person. You've got to grow.

And that's true with our conversation today. But I share this kind of dreamy portion, kind of our personal lives as an encouragement and inspiration to you, because if we can do it, you can do it. And to come from where we started to where we are and where we're going, I hope that's encouraging to you to say, hey, I can do this. I can pull this off. I can achieve my dreams, even though they seem...

quite impossible. Had you talked to us even 10 years ago, this would have seen well, five years ago, we were in Europe. Right? We were like, yeah, we were living in Germany and loving it. Oh, my goodness. Right after we moved from Europe. Yeah, then it was back to this discouragement and frustration. But it doesn't have to take that long. Amir, we took

half a year just wandering for fun. It was just a blast. We could have been here sooner. And there was a, we've been doing dreamy stuff for years and years and years. So we just want to remind you that whatever your dream looks like, whatever it is for you, if you become just fixated on it, not to the neglect of the important things in your life, but to the inclusion.

of the other important things in your life, you can make your dreams come true. It's so powerful, so important. Which does, it does require you to sacrifice some things and I think what ultimately you have to sacrifice is the things that really you don't care about anyways. It's the kind of the things that you're doing because they have to be done kind of, you have this sense of obligation.

Rachel Denning (06:30.19)
But when you learn how to re -prioritize your life and focus on the things that actually matter the most, including the pursuit of your dream, then the other things kind of fall out or fall away and it actually frees you up mentally, emotionally.

physically to pursue what you really actually care about most. Which is such an important principle. We have to remember every time we say yes to some little social conditioning, some little, yes, any little thing. Okay, I'll do that. Well, aren't we supposed to do those things? Or, I do that because isn't that what's expected? Or, on and on and on, blah, blah. Every time you say yes to something, by default you're saying no to something else. And very often,

That means you're saying no to your dream and your dream life, your dream family life, because you're saying yes to some really un, when you stop and look at it and you decide like, is this truly important to me in my life and how I'm gonna experience this mortal existence, does that show up on your list? And most time you're gonna be like, no, it never makes the list. And yet you say yes to that.

and then by default you're saying no to your dreams. Let that sink in, that's huge. So many of you, and it's lots of little yeses, it's not like this huge yes to like, okay, there go all my dreams. It's all these little yeses that you're just opting into.

whatever, what other people want, other people's agendas, other people's things, and you feel some kind of social pressure to do stuff that you're really not interested in, but you do it anyways. Or a whole bunch of shoulds, or we think we have to participate in things that really aren't, they aren't on your priorities. And so you're saying, by saying yes to them, you're by default saying no to dreams. Man, that's important. Super important. Okay.

Rachel Denning (08:25.229)
Ready? Let's dive in. We get messages a lot. Something to the effect of, and we get it from men and women, of we're teaching a principle, we're teaching something about marriage or family. In a coaching type scenario. It'll come up in coaching, it'll come up even in podcasts. We'll share a podcast, hey, try this, do this, these things work. And inevitably we'll get messages or texts or questions or emails or whatever people saying.

How do I talk about that with my spouse? How do I bring that up with my spouse? And again, it goes both ways. Like, oh, how can I let my husband know that we should do that? Or a gentleman reach out and say, hey man, how can I talk about this with my wife? And now, Rachel and I are in a place, we've been practicing this and working on it, we're in this place where we can speak openly about anything.

and we do. So then when I hear these things, it's a little brief moment of shock factor like, seriously? You can't even talk to your spouse about that? But then I remember we weren't always like that. Yeah, there's this interesting thing that happens, and I know it happens to everyone. It's like where you grow and you develop and you become a different person, essentially.

And then in a way you kind of forget how it used to be. It happens with all of us when we grow up. We become adults and we forget what it was like to be kids, even though we were all children. But I find that that in a way happens to us a lot, Greg and I. We'll come across something or someone will say something and we'll be like, what?

People do that? We still do it with McDonald's, you know. We haven't eaten at McDonald's or any fast food restaurant for 20 years.

Rachel Denning (10:25.901)
and we'll drive by McDonald's and there's a whole line and we'll kind of look at each other and be like, what? People still eat at McDonald's? I can't even believe it's still a business. I know, it's so funny, but we do this in a lot of different ways. This is one of them where because this way of being or doing things has become so normal to us that when we are reminded that it's not like that for everyone, it's kind of a little bit of a shock factor. And then it's like, oh yeah, wait.

I remember we used to be there, we used to do that, we used to eat at McDonald's, we used to not be able to talk to each other, we used to, you know, all these things and so it's, I just want to bring that up to how interesting and fascinating that is about the human mind that we can forget what it used to be like, we forget what the old normal was like because we're so used to the new normal. Exactly.

That's such an interesting thing. So we get this a lot and then we have to slow down and say, oh yeah, how do you get here? How did we get here? What journey did we go through? What works? What doesn't work? Why is this a struggle? And obviously it is a struggle and I would say it's a very common one where I would say it's pretty rare that couples can just speak openly about anything and everything. Most...

most couples have something, a few things usually, that either they both know it's super sensitive and has maybe it's led to arguments in the past or maybe just early on it's super reactive one or both or it's being handled poorly. Something's off and it's usually these topics where it's just like,

It's the... I don't know, you know, money is one. Sometimes couples can't talk about money. Sex is another one. Religion, politics, weight loss. Like, you know, my mother, you can never, ever speak about my mother. Or like, whatever. Well, I remember, like, one of the things that we couldn't talk about early on was exercise. We couldn't talk about that. And...

Rachel Denning (12:46.061)
We can get some background on that and explain. I think that would be helpful because that was... Yeah, it would be totally helpful, I think. Because I was obsessed, am obsessed. Like, I love everything health and fitness. Let's tell it from my point of view. Hold on one second. So, from my point of view, you know, essentially, before I ever met you or saw you...

You called me on the phone, you got my number from a friend, and you were interviewing me, you know, we'll figure it out later. I had seen her at a gathering, didn't have a chance to talk to her, got her phone number from a friend, and so I was calling, but again, you guys know part of our story. Having been out on my own at 16 and seen lots of failed marriages, I had spent a lot of time thinking and writing about the kind and caliber of marriage and relationship I wanted to have.

So I had a list of meaningful questions. I knew what I wanted. And so instead of just dating and chit chatting about whatever for months at a time, I just tactfully, you know, she didn't know. And the girls I went out with, they didn't know. I was just asking meaningful questions. And before things got emotional or...

before we got connected, I'm asking for honest answers. Yeah, so that you could make a decision about whether this was someone you could date and marry before all of that stuff happens. So anyways, one of the questions he asked on the phone before I saw him was, do you work out? And me, at that time, thought, oh, he's asking that question because he must think I have a nice body, you know? And so he's like, whoa, do you work out? Because you look great, you know? That's what I was thinking. Really, I'm just thin. And I remember trying to think,

think in my head like, do I work out? I couldn't think if I did, which obviously is a clue that I didn't. Now that I know her, I'm sure she was, what is working out? Right. And so I remember saying something like, oh, I go snowboarding and hiking sometimes, you know, but later on, I, well, first of all, when we got married, well, let's back. So,

Rachel Denning (14:54.445)
Just family background, zero fitness IQ in your family. Fitness IQ, that's a good one. So we ended up getting engaged and getting married and later he tells me that he has this list and I had a list too of what I wanted in a husband and he had one of what he wants in a wife and he said I met everything on the list except for exercise and working out. And...

I never really understood because my family had no financial or fitness IQ. I never understood why that mattered that much, you know. I never understood. And then later I never understood why it was so important to you. Now later I did figure out that one of the reasons it was so important to you was because...

exercise had essentially been a lifeline for you while you were out on your own as a teenager. You were dealing with trauma, you were dealing with depression, you were dealing with all these things and working out exercise essentially helped you get through all of it. You would let out your anger and your frustration in the gym and it really just...

It was a lot, like it was a foundational piece for you. So we go into this marriage with these two very different viewpoints. Me, I'm thinking...

but what, working out, like is that a thing you're supposed to do, you know, and you like working out saved my life, but we were so young, we couldn't communicate that to each other, and so this became one of the things that we couldn't talk about because you would bring it up, and I, for me it was just too many obstacles mentally and emotionally to get into working out, and it wasn't something I felt like I needed in my life, right? I had a more stable family life, I,

Rachel Denning (16:47.279)
was just, like, I felt like I had what I needed and exercise just never fit into that picture.

And for you, it was almost the exact opposite. It's everything. Yeah. And it was everything. That life was built on physical fitness. Exactly. So we have these very different viewpoints. And I think this is powerful because for a lot of couples, this is what they're coming at. It's not the same topic, of course, but it's the differing backgrounds and definitions of why this thing is important and why it is that way.

And when you're young especially, and then if you never work on making it, gaining the skills to be able to communicate about it, you go through almost your entire married life not being able to discuss that topic because you've never gotten to the foundation or the background about why this person has the viewpoint they do about it that's so different from yours.

So for many, I would say probably at least a decade, it was a sensitive topic. Two decades? Wow, you're giving me the two, babe, we've been married like two decades.

I don't know if it's been two decades. Let's say a decade and a half. We'll meet right there. Let's make it seem better than it actually was. No, I'm just kidding. It was particularly sensitive and frustrating. At least the first decade. For the first decade. And again, some of you might say, oh, that's pretty superficial or shallow or unimportant. Or some of you might be listening and be like, yeah, I get it.

Rachel Denning (18:24.909)
And again, understanding the science behind it. I had researched it. I'd lived with it. I'd gotten results. I got it. And I couldn't articulate this early on, but I knew the benefits. There are so many things that I am capable of doing, huge, important, even literally life -saving things now. I get to go out and rescue people. And I've had many, many opportunities to do that. Literally save lives because of the physical condition I'm in. Right.

And so I connect that, all of it. And it was my whole life experience, everything. So it's all connected. It means so much to me. Not in a vain way, but in a high caliber. This is the quality of life, the caliber person I want to be. And you guys know part of my story too. I hated being alone. Oh my gosh, I hated being alone.

So I want to do adventures, I want to do big things, but I want to do them with my wife. And so all looking for a wife that whole time, I'm like, I'm going to find a wife that will do these things with me. So there was a lot on this. Right. So there was essentially a ton of emotion and energy behind all of that.

And on the other side, I guess one of the reasons it became so sensitive is because I could feel all of that emotion and energy behind it of like, you need to work out. And yet from my perspective, not understanding everything I understand now, it was kind of like, why?

and a little abrasive in some ways. And I felt defensive too, because I'm like, wait a second, what's wrong with me the way I am? Right? It's that kind of thing. That is so important in there. Because you guys, and again, I was deliberate about this. I thought about every possible way to approach this. I mean, this probably helped me grow intact in diplomacy and strategy.

Rachel Denning (20:25.773)
every single thing I could think of. The nicest way to ask, oh you want to join me? Or oh hey I bought you this thing. And oh hey we're going to do this. I mean I tried everything and then I tried months of literally saying nothing. I won't say a single word. And she's like this is glorious, he's forgotten. And I'm like curses, silence won't work either. Nothing works with this woman. And we tried everything. I...

like prayed and played with God and fasted. I mean anything to get her to join me. And she's like.

But it makes you sweat. OK. So then this is one of the other fascinating things. And I hope you guys realize the reason why we walk through all of this is because hopefully you're going to be like, oh, yeah, it's like that with me for this thing. So over the years as we've grown intact in diplomacy and the ability to work through things, now we can bring something up and we can say, OK, what's holding you back? What's standing in the way? And we can get to the cause of the cause. And we can ask.

actually and skip the defensiveness and skip the defense and thinking it's well I wanted to emphasize what you said earlier like oh what's wrong with me what what you don't love me the way I am and we kind of it's just reactive emotional state that just doesn't work and I think you know sometimes we'll still have that but it's in a playful way now because we know we're aware of what's happening we're like I'm getting defensive right now and so we kind of have this playful banter of like what you don't like me the way I am what's what's wrong with me what's the problem you know.

And it's more of a playful thing because it's still human nature. We're still human and we still can get defensive about things, but we recognize what's going on and we don't allow it to disturb the relationship that we have. And we know what's happening is it's the survival brain, not who we are as our best selves. Because as our best selves, we're just going to be able to open and see it and just talk through it and not get all carried away. But the survival brain's like, you're under attack! You're attacking me!

Rachel Denning (22:35.695)
Fight for your existence. You're like no, we're just talking about the garbage problem that I asked you to take the garbage out and you keep saying you will but you don't so now I'm asking about the garbage and What do you think I am? You don't think I'll do anything? What am I? You don't respect me or value me and boom there goes a survival brain acting like an imbecile. Which is one of the reasons couples have trouble talking about something is because of it's not the thing itself per se but it's all of the energy and emotion that's behind it and

what it represents to someone. So back to then our own little issue with exercising, I started to realize that one of the reasons I didn't like to exercise is because I didn't like sweating. And I picked that up from either middle school or high school gym class. Now I also remember picking up the fact that I hated doing physical activities because we were forced to do dodge ball.

Gym, which is your favorite game I know in middle school my least favorite because I was the kid getting hit in the head with the ball And I hated it and I hated having having to be forced to participate in those types of games And so I spent my time avoiding it as much as possible plus the fact that when I was in high school I remember that we were also forced to shower after gym class

in a public shower, which as an introverted little person, I hated that as well. And so I, it's like I picked up these habits of avoiding physical exertion so that I could avoid these other activities that I didn't want to do. I didn't want to shower with a whole bunch of girls. I didn't want to, oh, and there was one other thing. See, I'm doing this because I'm helping you understand how this process works. And I hope you're all paying close attention here. She's unpacking all the

psychology here all the psychology about why I was resistant to exercising therefore resistant to my husband insisting that I exercise one of the other things which I didn't insist even the slightest invitations anything are you getting defensive about my word yes the use the use of the word are you attacking me so one of the other things was and this maybe this started in elementary school is that when I did

Rachel Denning (24:59.949)
exert myself, my face turned bright red. Like bright bright red. I don't know why, it just did. And kids would say something. They'd be like, why is your face so red?

And so I also hated that as a kid. I hated the fact that my face turned bright red when I was exercising or playing at recess or whatever and that they would then say something. So I started to create these associations that, oh, I don't want to exert myself because I don't want my face to turn red because I don't want people asking me why my face is red.

So you've got to understand that was one of the things that led to my timidity when I would get shy or nervous my face would turn bright red and people would say some whoa do your face so red so I'm like I'm gonna void anything and everything that might make me nervous and make my face red and I remember doing the same thing as a kid exactly so exercising was one of them and then also you know just speaking up or saying things in a public or group setting because if I got embarrassed my face would turn red and then I didn't want them.

So I'm telling you all of this because as a young married couple and for the first decade of our marriage at least

My husband is saying, you need to exercise because he has this whole background with exercise saving his life and his sanity. And I've got this whole background about avoiding exercise because of all these reasons that I couldn't, I could not articulate then. I can articulate it now, but then I couldn't, I didn't know why. I just thought like, oh, I don't like to exercise. I don't want to exercise.

Rachel Denning (26:36.013)
And yet that's the reason we weren't able to talk about this subject, and it was a very sensitive subject for both of us. And as we keep bringing it up over time, I kept getting more and more frustrated, hoping that she would finally change. And she kept digging in her heels like, no, I'm not going to do this. Yeah, being more resistant to staying the same. Becoming.

Am I saying that the right way? Becoming resistant to changing and more certain, more stubborn and staying the way I was because...

this whole cycle that's happening. You're getting frustrated at me not wanting to change and shh, shh, shh. Which, okay, this is also another important point, which then actually makes it more difficult to have the conversation and to be able to unpack all the psychological reasons going back to elementary school about why I didn't want to exercise, let alone for me to gain more understanding about why exercise was so important to you. So you see what's happening here?

very sensitive and very explosive. And now we start stacking emotionally, you stack every time I brought it up, there goes another thing on the stack. Now you got this huge stack. You're starting with the stack. You're not starting from ground zero. It's not like you can bring it up and it's a clean slate. It's not. As soon as you mention anything related to that exercise effort.

Sweating, you know, it's like what what you're sensitive and you're triggered by it and you're like, oh, we can't talk about that We can't go there. We're avoiding that at all costs and And so it just stacks in both ways and I would say now having a stack you get more sensitive to other topics that are either unrelated or seemingly unrelated because like oh

Rachel Denning (28:33.901)
Right? And you just get in these dynamics and we get to see it all the time. And so eventually, I think this is just a great example of this. But whatever it is, whether it's again, it could be any topic, how you raise the kids or your beliefs or mindsets or habits or the garage or the yard or the closet or whatever, like whatever it is.

You have to step back enough and what would you say, detach from it? You gotta detach from the survival brain and from the emotions of it all. Just step away from it and try to look at it objectively. Try to see it from your spouse's point of view. Try to see it from a totally different point of view. Like this, completely different from either one of you. Just see it objectively. Zoom way out and look back.

and start to understand it differently and detach the hypersensitive emotions to it. That way, because then it allows you to just, first of all, it allows you to start thinking about it.

because most of the time I was this way, you were this way, and many are this way. You can't even think about it with getting out without getting all fired up and angry and upset and replaying scenarios and fights or whatever. Or having that defensive position of trying to defend your point of view to the other person. And this is one of the most challenging parts about it I think because whenever we are in that type of...

I would say a drama triangle except in this case there's only two of you but I guess the issue could be the third piece of this triangle. Whenever you are in that you're playing these different roles and so...

Rachel Denning (30:21.549)
mentally and emotionally you don't have the freedom to be objective about the subject itself and eventually that's kind of what I had to start doing. Now I think part of it was maybe you just gave up all hope and just stopped bringing it up. I don't know. But I think honestly I think I had to stop because I was getting so angry after so much time and so many attempts. I was.

And I think this is important here. This is a good thing. Like exercise and health adds so much to your life.

And that's why it was became infuriating for me. So I'm like, this is such a good thing. I'm not asking you to do drugs with me. I'm not asking you to beat the kids and abandon every like, I'm asking, I'm inviting you and leading on is anything to be with me. Come go on adventures with me. Just I wanted you to be with me and do something that was good. Right. And you were just have nothing to do with it. And I was getting so infuriated. Like if I think about this anymore,

I'm gonna go crazy. I didn't like what it was making me feel. I didn't want anything to do with the anger and the bitterness. So on one side then, you have to learn how to essentially be detached in a way, to detach yourself from the outcome. Which is so hard. It's so hard. Because you want that outcome. Never could I be like, I don't care if my wife's healthy. Right.

Because then to me that means so much. I'm like, okay, she's gonna cut off years and years and years at the end of life. So I'm gonna live to 120 and she's gonna drop off at 75. Like, that's a suck sandwich. And then she's gonna be unhealthy and weak and tired, won't be able to do anything or be with the kids or grandkids. Because the grandkids will wear her out and she'll just be crotchety old, or a lady sitting in her chair. See, it means so much. See the emotional weight here behind that? So.

Rachel Denning (32:27.437)
But somehow, I mean, from my perspective, I felt that you had detached a little bit more from it. You know what happened? OK, yeah. Is the kids got old enough to do things with me. So as irritating and painful as it was for you not to participate, I was at least able to take the kids. And I had somebody to do things with.

I think that would have swaged it a little bit. I always wanted to do there, but I'm like, at least I got my boys or my daughters. See, and then that's interesting too, because on the other side of it, I always felt like the kids were one of the reasons why I couldn't participate, because I felt like I was pregnant or nursing, or then my body was destroyed, right? Which we did a whole other podcast episode about that. And it was, well, to just bring it up, later on we realized part of the reason the pregnancies were so hard on you was because

was because your fitness was low. Which we talked about in our episode on body shaming. So anyways, but so what I'm trying to, because I know that for me this has always played a part. It played a part with my own teenage rebellion as a teenager.

And I think it played a part in this too, where when I feel like someone is expecting me, or I'm gonna use the word insisting again, insisting that I do something, I am the one that digs in my heels. And it's like my brain shuts down and I get in this defensive mode of...

I'm defending my viewpoint instead of taking an objective viewpoint. Particularly if there's any kind of disapproval. If you feel like I'm disapproving of that, you'll even dig in even more. Exactly. But from my side, and I don't know that I realized at the time that you had become more detached, but I at least started to feel like, OK, no matter what,

Rachel Denning (34:31.213)
I need to understand this topic for myself because there was still of course some logical reasoning there of, well yeah, okay, exercise is a good thing, obviously. I can't argue against that. I may have all of these mental blocks or physical or emotional blocks of why I'm not doing it, but from a logical perspective, I know exercising is something that's good for me, right?

So on my own, I had to come up with my own plan in a way. Because one of the other challenges I always felt that when I did...

try to participate with you, I always felt like I couldn't keep up, I wasn't at your level, I was slowing you down, I was fill in the blank, you know, so it's like I was trying to compete with Olympic athlete being this little baby, this exercise baby, and so I always felt inadequate, which was another, you know, another deterrent. And to be clear, like I wasn't like, come on Rachel, do what I do, I just did 100 push -ups, you did two? It's pathetic. I was always encouraging and yeah, you were always very positive.

Like, let's go backpacking. I'll carry your backpack. Like, you just bring your clothes. Like, I got it. I'll carry water and snack. I'll carry the kids. Like, we went into this canyon. I carried three kids and the packs out. Like, I would always do everything, but you always still felt like it just wasn't enough. I was a weight or an anchor or something.

which then makes it more of a, you know, instead of motivating me for whatever reason, which something like that would motivate you, you'd be like, wow, I'm out of shape. I need to step it up. For me, it always felt like I'll never catch up. Like I'm so far behind. You know, you were exercising as a teen, I didn't, then I had all these kids, I'm so far behind, I'll never catch up. And so I had to kind of switch my mindset of,

Rachel Denning (36:22.093)
I'm not trying to catch up. I need to figure out me. I need to figure out what I care about. I need to figure out what I want to do. I need to figure out my own motivation. For me, one of my motivations became longevity. Like I cared about...

living a long life but not just like sitting in a wheelchair type long life because that sucks. I want to be active. I want to be able to move my body and for me that was a different definition than the one I felt like not that you were giving it to me but like your definition. And so it's like I had to find my own definition of definition and motivation of what was going to drive me to want to be more active in my life.

and

Then it... Then what? You're saying, and then what? Well, yeah, so then it started to switch. Well, right, so then once it started... And again, we're telling this story, guys, not so you just know about some personal story in your life. There's a principle, there's a lesson to every one of these. So as we walk through the steps to this, we're sharing this. Apply it to your scenarios. So you're like, oh, okay, wow, that's it. You're unpacking a lot of this stuff. So she started to...

get a different motivation was one. So, longevity. This took another 10 years. So, now we're up to the two decades. And then as you read about it, you're like, okay, I got to do that. And they're like, yeah, you got to be fit. You got to move your body. It was movement. Well, even things like lifting weights. I've learned about how important lifting weights is for women, and it helps with longevity and muscle strength and all of these types of things. And bone density. Right. And so, you know, where maybe in the past... And you saw your grandma become extremely frail. Yeah. Right. I see.

Rachel Denning (38:04.431)
in my family as they get older and I think, okay, how can I prevent those types of things? How can I have better strength, better mobility as I start to age, right? And this is where I step in and say, babe, I've been telling you this since we met. I told you so. I told you so. I would say I told you so, but that's below me. I'm not that kind of person. And so this is where it's so interesting because in a lot of ways, those were the things you were trying to tell me.

as newlyweds even. But in my mind, I was giving a different definition to what you were saying. I thought it was about body image or I thought it was about having muscles or about having six pack and you know things that I didn't care about as much. And so you're saying one thing and it means one something to you and I'm hearing something else and giving it a different definition and so that's obviously where we have this disconnect. We're not meeting up. We're not seeing.

eye to eye because we're using the same words but they have different definitions. And again, if you can visualize in your head they're attached to a sensitive nerve so to speak. Well, and they're attached to this weight of meaning behind them.

And so it becomes, if you don't get to a place where you can think about it differently, objectively, you can process the emotions, you can talk about different definitions, how you see it. Again, and I would say probably first,

is to you do it you've got to be able to walk through mentally and emotionally yourself. Right, so you know I could say oh well the key to the situation changing was that Greg changed and that fixed everything. You know that's not you can't have that approach and you can't have that viewpoint. In reality it was both of us.

Rachel Denning (40:04.237)
making some change but you can't wait for your spouse so you have to in essence whatever this topic is that's so sensitive you have to create that space for you to be able to think about it in an objective way and I would say to think about it from the other point of view your spouse's point of view because I know that that also helped me a lot where at one point I remember thinking wow this

this was so important to Greg. Like I had this aha, that oh yeah, you were out on your own and you were dealing with anger and frustration and depression and loneliness. Like this was a major outlet for you and that no wonder you feel so passionately about it because it was so important to you. I had to come to that realization and understanding.

so that I better knew where you were coming from. Because you know, you think you kind of get that as this young newlywed couple, but you don't. You don't fully understand what it means and why it's so important and all of the mental, emotional significance that it...

carries. So having that realization was also powerful in helping me to be less defensive because I'm like, okay, he's coming from this place where this is an important lifeline in his existence, essentially. Well, and you had that same journey with sex. Exactly. Like having a... We've talked about in many podcasts. And I have that same thing in understanding, just understanding you.

and understanding women and understanding how minds work differently. Why I cry about things. When I was able to detach and create that, I don't need that. I don't think like that. I don't act like that. I'm like, oh, she does. And those are things you need as a normal process. Flipping that switch or doing that processing on my own just allowed me to...

Rachel Denning (42:04.749)
just totally change the perspective. Like, oh, okay, I can see you, I can see this situation, I can see this topic now completely differently. Because I went through the processing on my own, mentally and emotionally, to get to a different spot. I'm like, oh, okay, I don't have to stay over here where I can't see very clearly. I don't have to dig in my heels. I can walk around the corner here.

And oh, yeah, we can totally talk about that. And I don't need to react. I don't need to fight. I don't need to ever say anything offensive or hurtful. I can go into it just being curious and open. And again, you have to do this. And I think for me, I have some of my clients do this too, walk through it so well, process it so well on your own mentally and emotionally that you don't feel triggered.

Like you have to just on your own and maybe pen and paper and just write about it and just vent, get it all out, process it. I would say for the most part, don't bring other people into it. Like don't talk to your buddies, your friends, extended family. Like don't bring them into your stuff. You may want some coaching.

or really good counselors or therapists with some things, but only if they can help you process it, help you walk through it. But if you can walk through it, you can think about it, you can just play through the whole scenario and it doesn't bother you, you don't get all worked up and fired up and angry and upset, and you're like, I can hear it, and then I would do this even mentally, I'll still do it. Okay, let's say this person says this or does that.

And how does it make me feel? How am I going to respond? So then if it does get said, if it does bring up like, oh, well, I anticipate this, and I'm going to respond instead of react. I don't have to react. So once I've got control of me, I can come in now and I can approach it differently. I say, babe, I know this has been sensitive in the past. I really want to understand. Tell me about it differently.

Rachel Denning (44:09.517)
And now you've been doing all this processing, maybe she hasn't or he hasn't, and her first reaction, oh, here we go again, you're going to do it. And I'm just sitting there, are you going to bring this up again? And I anticipated that, right? I anticipated the reaction because I'm not going to expect her to have done all the processing I did. I'm going to anticipate a reaction. That's OK. She gets a totally different stimulus from me.

the drama triangle so to speak is ended. Like, well no, let's just get to understand it. Because you've stepped out of your normal role. Exactly. And so, and I think especially in a situation like that, is you need to allow them that space then to do their own processing, which is going to look like a lot of vomiting of words and emotion and everything, but if you can do that...

detached by just saying okay I'm providing space for that I'm not going to react I'm not going to respond I'm just going to let them get it out I'm going to let them say their piece I'm not going to try and correct their this is where couples actually get caught up we hear a lot is because they're like well I can't just let her say that I have to correct her misconceptions and like okay we get that but that's not the time or place for it right then.

Right then is the time for her to, her or him, to just process it all out loud and just be able to say all the things and get it off their chest and just put it out there. This is so critical. And I need to anticipate that. Like, okay, I've switched. I'm not even sensitive about it anymore. I haven't lowered my standards. We're not suggesting that. You're not lowering your standards. You're not just becoming nihilistic or apathetic. You've never just said or thought, well, okay.

I guess Rachel's just never going to exercise. Like that's never been something. Nor was I ever going to say, well, I'm just going to walk away or I'm going to stop working out. We're just going to be an unhealthy family because it's just a source of contention. You never ever did that. You always kept your own high standards. You've always done your own super hard workouts. Like constantly that's been there as the standard.

Rachel Denning (46:25.485)
And I know even when you detached from it, it was still an expectation of like, you need to be healthy. You need to be fit. Not in a you're not good enough sort of way, but like, hey, this is how I want to do life with you. Healthy and fit, active. And, but.

So then, you know, when in my own space where I do my own research, well, of course, everything, all the research lines up with your viewpoints, right? So, you know, I've got nothing there but confirmation that yours is the better path. So with that freedom to kind of form my own opinions about it, well, my opinions begin to line up with your opinions. So, you know, that's a win -win. But I don't, I don't expect that right away. Right. And I show up with a theoretical or a

hypothetical vomit bucket, right? Right. Because I'm doing this process, like, OK, I'm going to change here. So again, we're giving you guys specific tools. So go ahead and say, I'm going to approach this differently. I'm not going to expect her to change right away. In fact, I'm going to fully expect some vomiting and some intense emotions, some processing that might be out loud. There might be some attacking. Yeah, there might be some attacking. I'm going to anticipate that and be like, I'm totally OK with this. This has been sensitive for a long time. I'm done being sensitive about it.

she may not be done with it. So I'm gonna sit there and at all the everything that comes out, I'm just gonna sit there. I'm not gonna correct it. I'm not gonna fight back. I'm just gonna let her just get it all out. And I'm gonna have this little...

I'm not going to say anything, I'm not going to do anything, I'm just going to have this hypothetical bucket, just catching everything. And then you can throw it out. Yeah, I'm going to emotionally, mentally, emotionally, I'm going to throw it out later and not keep any of it because she's just processing it. And we're going to let it happen. And then over time, the transformation is going to happen as long as I maintain the new...

Rachel Denning (48:25.005)
state, the new role, the new position. Like I don't go back, I don't revert back the other way. I go to this new space and allow you to come along that process. I see that come up with men especially that I work with though. They'll be like, hey, you got to stop doing that. He's like, yeah, I did that for years. I'm like, well, yeah, your wife hates that dude. And in total honesty, ladies and gentlemen, especially gentlemen here, your spouse will only tolerate your crap for so long.

and you take advantage of it. It's all the time, spouses take advantage of it. They go, oh, well, no, my spouse, real patient, they'll tolerate this. No, at some point it hits a breaking point, like I'm done with your crap. In fact, I just had a really important call last week. And that same scenario was like, hey, no, you know what? She's done. She's done with your crap. If you seriously do not change for good, this marriage will end. Like that's the cold hard reality.

So then if all that's built up, you better fully expect to get a dump truck full of emotion. You're going to need more than a bucket. Yeah, exactly. You're going to need a huge excavator to take care of that. And you fully deserve it. You fully deserve it. So then let's say you change. And this is what I want to get to here. You change. You're like, hey, I don't do that anymore. And then I'll get calls or messages like, man.

It's been two weeks already. I haven't done any things I used to do and she still treats me the same. Like, dude, two weeks? You've been doing it for two decades. After two weeks, you suspect her to just think that you're a changed man now? Nah, dude, stay the course.

And so if you do need to make changes, make them and expect that you're going to be tested. It's going to take time. Yeah. It's probably going to take years. There's still going to be some doubt. You're like, we'll see. We'll see how long this lasts. Because you've changed before. You've made promises before. You've committed before. You just got to stay the course. And so part of this issue is if you guys fight about money. I wish.

Rachel Denning (50:32.045)
We couldn't possibly share all the stuff we hear in the messages. But I think many of you would just, it would either be interesting or sometimes shocking to hear the things that couples will get upset about and fight over and like weird, weird stuff with money, right? The way one spouse controls the money. Yeah, I can't even go get things I need. Cause my spouse freaks out if I buy stuff for home education or for running the home better. And again, it's all just,

piled up from years and years of experiences and emotional attachments. Right, there's some other reasoning behind that of why the spouse is behaving in that way. It's not, it's obviously just not the thing itself. It's all of the emotional attachment to their viewpoint on that issue. So it's kind of interesting though because...

So one, I guess what I want to say is one thing that you can do is you could both listen to this episode separately or together and then do your own processing. So kind of like you were talking about, like if ideally you both listen to it.

and then you do your own separate processing about a specific issue, then you can come together and there's going to be, you know, a little less vomiting and a little less attacking because you understand what's happening. Yes. You're able to discuss the process that's going on. Yes. And you can do the processing and some of the vomiting on your own. Again, take it out on paper, not on people. So if there's an issue and it here's, let's just walk through like we would do it right now. Yeah. Like let's say we had some issues. Something came up and we're like, Oh my God. And we're, let's,

pick a parenting thing, like the way we should handle some parenting situation, right? And there's a lot of anger here and a lot of emotion. I guess we would both like, hey, let's both listen to this podcast. We can listen to it together or listen to it apart. Let's listen to our own podcast together, Dave. So we listen to it apart. The episode, and I again, encourage your spouse, both of you should listen to this separately, maybe together. But then,

Rachel Denning (52:36.077)
there's all this issue and I can still feel the emotion. I can feel it coming up and my mind starts going, yeah, but she does this and she's always done that. And the last thing I want to do is with all that emotion, actually try to talk to you about it because I'm going to say things. Either they're super hurtful, I'm going to regret, or I'm going to exacerbate the problem and make it worse. Or I won't be able to even communicate or listen clearly because I'm so triggered. Right.

So we would separately go and do our own processing. That could be, I would probably say, writing it out. Or, I mean, you can just talk through it in your own head. Like, I'll do that. He'll say this, and I'll say this. But with the point of trying to get clarity about it. Because mentally you can run circles. Yeah, exactly. And get caught in your own little trap. So writing it out can be very helpful. So we do that. Especially if you're writing it out, then you can clarify the most important points, too. Like, well, it's this thing that's really bothering me.

and this is the reason why, and this is why I feel that way about this thing. You just want to get clarity and remove some of the emotions so that when you talk about it, you can actually talk about it in a logical, reasonable way without all of that emotion there. Because it's essentially the emotion that ends up getting in the way. Couples will talk in circles about things because they're dealing with the emotions and not the actual subject itself. Which is so good, because at that point, it's the emotions talking, not the...

It's not even you. It's not logic. It's not, hey, let's have a great marriage. It's just like, I feel so hurt or so angry or so stressed or so, like whatever it is, the sensitivity is all there. That's, so it's the symptom that's talking. And that's what's coming out. Exactly. So you can't actually resolve the issue because you never actually get to the issue.

because you're dealing with all of the pain and the anguish and the hurt and the defensiveness. So you have to be able to remove that through this pre -processing phase to then be able to get to the heart of the conversation. And when you do that, it's so much easier to discuss things and to resolve them because you're coming to it in a better state of mind.

Rachel Denning (54:48.941)
So it's like two logical beings having a conversation. And so you radiate a different energy and you receive a different energy. You're in a way better place. So obviously you guys, this is going to require some pretty intense humility. Yes, that too. You have to stop and just be humble. It's easy to get so angry or so upset or so hurt.

Or so even that you're right. Yes, exactly. So just this is the right way. And you stop, especially if you are right. Right. Yeah. Well, so in the fitness case, right? I'm like, I knew I was right. And it could have gotten, it could have gotten so bad that then you start to think, I started thinking about Rachel differently and I started thinking about the marriage differently. I started thinking about the family differently. And I know this is happening to a lot of you.

you start dismissing it and then all of a sudden the issue becomes bigger than the marriage and the family. And so you bring it back, you put it in your place and you just gotta just be humble and maintain perspective. Losing perspective is the quickest way to just ruin relationships and ruin situations, everything. So keep it in perspective, be humble.

And then it sinks in here in two parts. One, how you receive what your spouse gives, and then how you give to your spouse. So if I want to talk to her about something that's sensitive, how I talk about it is critically important. But it's just as important how I receive what she says, and how I hear, and how I engage.

So it's both ways and it requires an insane amount of humility and a willingness to apologize quickly and willingness to change. Like I have to be fully committed to being a better husband and a better man, a better father. I have to be willing to let go of some things and change some things. And it's, it's this cool like reciprocation. Even when you say, babe, like,

Rachel Denning (57:10.221)
where I have made improvements in other areas, has that facilitated you making improvements? Oh, absolutely. Disconnected other areas, right? Well, even with the whole exercise thing, because you have been so willing to improve yourself in every area, that definitely plays a role, especially after the first decade.

Don't lose hope you guys, it doesn't have to take 20 years. Well yeah, I don't want people to think it has to take that long. Today's episode is about how over the next 20 years your spouse could change their opinion. Seriously.

But then that definitely played a part of like, well, why am I being so resistant, especially when I know exercise is a good thing? And I think that that's what opened the door to, okay, why am I being resistant? So then I was able to better understand my own mental and emotional blocks to why I didn't want to do it. And this, I think this is important because...

Once we were able to create that space and do some of that separate processing, then we are able to have the conversation. And it's not going to be fixed overnight. You're not going to have one conversation that solves the problem. But we open the space to have an ongoing conversation. So then I would just bring things up. You'd be like, well, I want to do this. And then I'd share my immediate feeling or response, which is like, well, I don't want to sweat. And we're able to understand and have that conversation about, oh, well, why don't you want to sweat? And you know.

Where does that come from? And that helps me process through why I have this resistance, right? But if at least one of you is not in a good place, preferably both of you are moving towards a good place, you can't even get to the point of why is the sweating such a big deal? Right.

Rachel Denning (59:09.133)
And again, that can be a long process of first understanding why it's a big deal to her and then helping her make a new connection. Like, oh, well, you're not in high school or middle school anymore. You don't have to do a public shower. Like, you get to shower with me, babe. Let's create a better association there. Like, wow, we should be sweating a lot more often. Which is funny because I love sweating. To me, sweat became this symbol of exertion and health. And sweating is actually incredible.

good for you. It gets rid of toxins out of your body. But every topic needs to be on the table. And this is one thing I want to really drive home and emphasize. Thank you for listening this far. Thanks for being a part of our community and listening to all of this. It's awesome. I hope this is extremely helpful for you and your spouse. Well, and your kids too, and anyone you talk to. These frameworks here work. But I want to drive this home.

If you cannot openly talk about anything and everything in your marriage, that is a symptom and a sign that there's a lot of room for improvement and growth. And you can rise to that caliber of a relationship. That's the main message I want to share here is like...

You can build that caliber of relationship where any topic, anything can come up and we can talk about it and we can just discuss it and work through it and it's good. Nothing has to be off limits. Well, and I think, you know, a lot of reason, a lot of the reason couples don't do this is because, and I'm sure even listening to us, they think, oh, that's just a lot of work.

Like, so much you have to do and so many skills you have to gain and this and that and the other. And yet, to me, I'm like, well, what's the alternative? Because your life is not going to be any easier if you don't do it. On the far side of this, it's still a lot of work and pain and suffering, but without the benefit. I mean...

Rachel Denning (01:01:15.085)
The beautiful thing about taking this approach and being willing to invest in the work is that you get the reward. We have the reward of having an incredible relationship, but it's because we've done the work. Now we could have avoided doing the work because it was too much work. And that would have kept us back. What that does is it puts a ceiling of your growth and product. So that would have kept us back where we were. A ceiling, but I also think that it eventually leads to...

a worse marriage. Like, it's not you just cap out and plateau. I think you don't just plateau. I think you actually start to decline because when you lose the ability to discuss certain things that are difficult to discuss, I think you also, like you were saying, you lose the ability to discuss even simpler things because essentially what you've done is you've lost the ability to communicate.

you don't know how to communicate and that has a carryover into every part of your life. And so yeah, it is work and maybe it will take 20 decades, 20, sorry, 20. It's a long time. Two decades, that is a long time. But what else are you going to do anyways? Right? And it doesn't have to, we didn't have coaching, we didn't understand this. We're trying to share all this process so that we literally are collapsing time for you. So what took us decades can take you days.

You know, you can... Wow, that's a big promise. That's a big promise, but it's true because you can collapse time. If we had understood this, if we knew what was going on and like, oh, well now I totally get what's happening here and I respond differently, that just, that's rocket fuel to progress. Yeah, true. And you can make massive progress much quickly. And even if it still takes months or years, it's not decades. Right, it's way faster. And that's still way faster.

And the goal is to get to a point where the things that are super sensitive or frustrating or whatever, like you haven't been able to approach, you can just talk about openly. So she can come to me and say, babe, why do you do this thing? Or I really would like you to do this differently or to change or take care of this. And I can do it. The common ones are, hey, babe, I want to have sex more often.

Rachel Denning (01:03:31.821)
that statement right there in many marriages would be like a bomb in the room or she come up and say Greg you need to stop doing this or start doing that again these are the comments to get I think there's a perfect example that just happened not too long ago while we were traveling Greg had this way of saying things to people we were interacting with when we

like in hotels and different things and I knew the reason why, like I understood the principle behind it. And so for a long time I never said anything but I finally it just kind of...

tripped me and I was like that's it I'm done I am saying something about this topic I'm going to emphasize it I'm going to insist that he at least sees it my viewpoint that I'm trying to make here and we did and you know we had an intense conversation about it but you were very

At first you were defending your point of view, not in a defensive way. You were just sharing your point of view. And I was like, yeah, I get that. What I was talking about was the principle. It's this principle that just... I am a very principled man. And I live by principles. And if a principle is being violated, whoa, it gets me fired up. So it was around the principle, but I was handling it...

Well, because essentially what I was trying to emphasize was like, yeah, the principle is correct, but these people that you're trying to teach the principle don't even understand the framework. They don't even know where you're coming from with this. And so this is how it comes across. And so in that, while initially you're like, well, this is the principle I'm trying to defend, I just remember that you just got this look on your face of like, I'm going to think about this. I'm going to consider it.

Rachel Denning (01:05:28.845)
And then that was it. You changed. You literally, just like that, you changed it. And so while we, you know, as a couple, we, even now...

maybe we are inclined to avoid that because it requires some conflict. It's not that conflict is a bad thing. What's a bad thing is when you can't resolve conflict. Conflict creates change. And so there's going to be some conflict in communication. But there never has to be like insulting or fighting. Right. There's a difference between fighting and conflict. Conflict just means there's some, you know, maybe discomfort or intensity. So we had to have some conflict, but

when you remove the defensiveness and you remove the posturing and you remove you know all of those defense mechanisms then you're able to sincerely just analyze and be like okay let me actually look at this objectively and then you come to

a conclusion and you just make it happen. Now you may have come to the conclusion of like, yeah, I get where you're coming from, but I still agree that this is the right way. And then you would move forward with that and I'd be like, okay, great. I'll support that, I guess. But I guess that's kind of what we're trying to work towards is it's not a conflict free communication always, but it's resolved.

sensitive issues that need to be resolved. Otherwise, we have almost no conflict. It's amazing. Well, I know 100 % that's because we worked through the areas of conflict. One of the reasons why, and I think this is very important to understand, one of the reasons why we do have so little conflict most of the time is because when conflict arises, we resolve it.

Rachel Denning (01:07:23.437)
We don't allow it to just percolate through our lives, you know, without... Or we don't avoid it. And we don't avoid it. We actually will deliberately take time, and we do this every time we have an issue.

we deliberately set aside time to resolve the conflict to do everything we just talked and so in some ways you're right we can we can now resolve things in hours that used to take us years to do but because we set aside the time we go through everything we've discussed we get down to the core issue understanding the psychological

contributions behind it and then we're like okay well this is this is the answer and then it's not like it's fixed like that but at least we now have a clear solution and then when it comes up we're like oh remember we're going to do this we're doing this thing we're going this direction so it's like the decision and the resolution has been made and now it's just a matter of putting it into action which if you don't

That just destroys trust. Yeah. So if you ask me to do something, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do it. And I do it, then you have trust. There's confidence. The conflict goes away because I'm like, hey, if we talk about it, it's going to change. If I say, yeah, you're right, babe, I'll do it, and I don't, it just destroys trust. They're like, well, he says he's not going to do it. We had this conversation. We went through this whole thing. And so now it cycles again. And that actually adds to the emotional stack. And so instead of solving it, resolving the problem, it adds to it. It's exasperating. Yeah, it makes it worse.

So again, it comes back to my own personal growth. I have to be willing to level up. Now, you don't have to, what's the phrase? Go along to get along. Like, we're not saying that. In some instances where like it really doesn't matter, are you really gonna fight over that? Like.

Rachel Denning (01:09:08.109)
Who cares? Like, obviously, the peels on the potatoes are way better in the mashed potatoes. But if her family always took the peels off, which is the case, and she doesn't like them in there, okay, whatever, so be it, I don't care. Like, we're not gonna even, who cares about the potatoes?

Just stop eating potatoes. But if it's a real true matter of principle, don't just go along, get along. Figure out how to process things. Figure out how to communicate. Figure out how to solve these things. Work through these things. It's possible. That's the higher level. That's leveling up. That's growth. That's progress. That's refinement. Which is essentially what you want. Because if you just continue to do what you've been doing,

you're not going to get any better and in many cases you're going to actually get worse. You're going to atrophy in your relationship. And so you could literally say that in your marriage. Say, babe, I want to have the caliber of marriage that you and I can openly and calmly talk about any subject that needs to be talked about. Now that statement right there might trigger some things. Your spouse, what? You don't think our marriage is good? And be ready for that. Be ready for that possibility.

to sit with that and grab your little vomit bucket or truck as the case may be and just let it all come out and let that happen. Say, yeah, I love you. I love our marriage. I'm committed. I'm gonna level up. I want the caliber of marriage where we can talk about things. Oh, you don't think we can talk about things? They're like, well, it seems like the way you're reacting right now is an indication of that. So again, it's just something, it's an ideal to start working towards.

and have because when you can have that quality and caliber of openness, then it's worth all the work, every bit of it and whatever comes up in the future.

Rachel Denning (01:11:14.637)
will be taken care of. You can resolve. Everything from the past has been resolved, taken care of. So you don't have to worry about that. What's happening today, we're processing. And again, think about this subconsciously. If you can't communicate and there's a lot of trouble, then you're going to be like, yeah, what's going to happen next year? What's going to happen if one of our kids does that? Or what's going to happen if this happens?

Gosh, if we're always fighting about money, what happens if the economy goes down again? So then subconsciously, you're freaking out about another slump in the economy because it could destroy your marriage. You've got to work through that stuff. So you're like, no. Whatever comes, let's work through it because we've become those kind of people. OK. Love you guys. Work on this. Share with spouse. Share with friends, neighbors, family.

share we want more and more extraordinary marriages out there. Love you guys, thanks for listening, Recover.

Rachel Denning (01:12:15.469)
you