#168 What to Do When People Oppose Your Lifestyle Choices

Rachel Denning (00:11.15)
Welcome to the podcast in this episode Greg and I are answering a question about clashing cultures What to do when the status quo conflicts with your unconventional lifestyle choices, especially if the clash is happening in your own extended family It's not uncommon for someone like you to try to do life differently and then to get thrown under the bus By the naysayers and the reality checkers. It's happened to us, too

Maybe you want to homeschool, travel with your family, eat a different way than you were raised, or to take a different path in college or career than the generation before you. How do you handle the unavoidable conflict that arises from your unconventional choices? Is it best to create a healthy distance and to accept these differences, or is there a way to create agreement and harmony despite diametrically opposed viewpoints? Listen now to hear the answer.

This episode is sponsored by our Be Your Best Self Bundle. The strength of your family begins with the strength of the foundation, and that's you. You are the foundation of your family, and you have to be strong to carry the load of responsibility. The best self bundle will lighten the burden with tools that help you do and be more with less stress and more confidence. Greg loves to teach that a rising tide lifts all boats. When the tide comes in, it lifts all the boats in the harbor.

you can be the tide in your family. Family life gets better when you get better. How you live your life is how you teach your children to live their life. Be someone worth modeling. Go to ExtraordinaryFamilyLife .com to get access to the best self bundle.

Rachel Denning (01:55.469)
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. Super crazy excited to answer a question today because it's so relevant. We live in a really unique time in the history of the world where we... Okay, I say it's unique, but then this has been happening throughout history where there's societal changes and even turnings, right? We've talked about the fourth turning.

And so each generation has this different thing. And I think this has happened throughout history is you look back and read through it. The new generation has different ideas and they don't adopt or buy into the old ideas or they kind of come up with their own stuff. And so this has been going on for thousands and thousands of years. So it's nothing, it's nothing brand new like, Oh crap, this hasn't happened before. What do we do about it? But it's really exacerbated right now where you have, well,

Okay, and the one thing that is unique is the internet. Instantaneous, if access to information around the globe and ideologies can be spread in moments where before, you know, you had to travel or send a letter or something or make an expensive phone call. But now we can grab hold of ideas literally from around the globe in moments and have them at our fingertips at any time.

Well, back to this idea you were talking about with turnings and generations. Yes, the reality is that each generation has a different focus and that is actually a normal natural part of the cycles of history and humanity and growth and evolution and development because it kind of is a checks and balances type system where

you know, one generation will adopt a certain viewpoint or ideology because it's in response to their parents' generation. And then our children do the same thing. And what essentially is happening is it's maintaining this balance between chaos and order, between too much structure and too little structure. Like all of these complex things are going on in humanity itself that we're often not even aware of that is happening, but...

Rachel Denning (04:21.741)
when you step back and you read a book like The Fourth Turning and other things like other books like that, you realize that this is how it works to kind of, it's like a pendulum and it will swing one way and then the next generation kind of helps it to swing back because they're like, you've gone too far, come back this way. And that's essentially what's happening. But then the generation after them brings it back the other way. Goes too far the other way. Yeah. And so then,

then there has to be some chaos and some upheaval and some friction to try to bring it back. So it's this, it's, it's as though every 80 years or so, the pendulum swings way too far to one side or the other. And, and if, as you study, can I, can I pause here for a rant? We interrupt this current broadcast for a rant from me. We've got to study history. You've got to spend time studying history. You have to teach history to your children.

Like we've got to know what happened before. Otherwise we, we march along cluelessly like, Oh, this is weird. This is strange. But when you study history, like, Oh man, this happened before so many times. And there was lessons from it. Wisdom. We don't have to make all the same mistakes. They have been made. Wasn't it, um, I'm interrupting you. What was the, weren't we just listening to it in Ray Dalio's book on the changing world order when he said some of the most important lessons you will learn.

do not happen in your lifetime. So the most important, some of the most important things you could ever learn are things that will not or have not happened in your lifetime. And that's why you have to study history because otherwise you'll never gain those lessons. You'll never learn the most important things because you didn't study history and it didn't happen to you. So you go through your whole life, never knowing some of the most important things in life. And so that begs the question, like, well, why do I care then?

If it's not going to happen to me, why do I care about this most important lesson that Ray Dalio brings up? Well, because it is highly likely to happen in your kids and grandkids generation, but you won't be able to teach them. You won't be able to prepare them. You won't be able to give them a heads up and give them some insight for what's coming. So that's why this is generational stuff. Well, plus some of the most important lessons can be applied to your own life if you know about them, but you don't know about them because they haven't happened to you.

Rachel Denning (06:44.781)
unless you study history. Yes, nice. I love this. So the question that came in was an excellent one and Rachel's going to read it. But ultimately, as I understand it,

It's how, how do you balance? Well, she's, I'm sorry. Go ahead. She's referencing this as the old world and the new world. So we'll use that terminology. What does that even mean? Right. But in some ways it means the differences between this generation and the past generation. Okay. But ultimately it could, it could refer to, yeah, that's a great way. That's one way to see it is like it's, it's ideas kind of traditional ideas and maybe new ideas.

But another way to see it is just, just absolute, just differences of opinions. So you might take what we're going to talk about today and be like, okay, how do we have people from the right and people from the left or liberals and conservatives, or, you know, just different lifestyles. Like basically the way I am seeing this, like, how do we all just get along? Right? How can you hold standards, set boundaries?

maintain your beliefs and yet still be able to engage with people like people even heaven forbid or be likable. Sometimes we think, well, no, I'm going to hold my ground and you become so unlikable. Nobody wants to be around you because you hold your ground so much. So how do you have differences of opinions, ideas, philosophies, and still be able to

live and connect and love and be in human groups and families and especially if they are in your own family and this is where it gets particularly difficult is when it's right in your house okay so the question included how do you negotiate the new world as i often like to call it

Rachel Denning (08:48.621)
basically the new paradigm of thinking and living that you guys among others are such a great example of with the old world, the status quo, convention, safety, the herd mentality, especially when the old and new world share close quarters within one family. Okay, this is a super relevant question. I think she's in part alluding there to.

Just different ways of doing life, right? Traveling, homeschooling. Thinking about things. Yeah, just doing things differently. Being unconventional. Even eating. Yeah. Now, especially now, eating can be a big new world, old world. Yeah, people like, yeah, there's all kinds of disagreements about... Essentially, we're disagreeing on how you do life. Yes. And your philosophies and ideologies, you're studying what you're reading, thinking, basically your results, right? And this...

it's challenging because we all, well, I think we all want similar results, but then a lot of us want different results too. And so you're living in close quarters with people, whether in the house or in the community, and you're trying to get different results, occasionally want the same results, but using different methods. Yes. I was going to say at its core, this is difficult because it's about your way of living and people feel it is threatening.

to them if you do life differently, because that means it can mean that maybe the way they're doing life is wrong. And so people get defensive about it and want to defend their way of life because in essence it's defending themselves. It's saying, I'm not an idiot. I'm not, you know, I'm not wrong.

When sometimes you might be saying, dude, you're an idiot and you're wrong. And sometimes that is the case. Sometimes you people are wrong and they're still holding on to it because they feel the need to hold on to something, even if it's hurting them. But sometimes it's not the case. Sometimes it's just wrong for you. Your way of doing things or viewing things or the approach you're taking.

Rachel Denning (11:12.685)
may just be right for you. That's also true. And so it's difficult in these scenarios to have this level of differentiation of actually figuring out the nuance of is this actually wrong or is this just wrong for me? Is this right or is this right for me? And if you don't already have some sort of open communication with your family or extended family,

about those topics, that's very difficult to navigate all of them. It takes a lot of finesse. It takes a lot of diplomacy. It takes a lot of awareness on your own part, first of all, and on their part, second of all, and without that awareness of where you are in this terrain, it just usually turns into an argument or a... Just hard feelings. Hard feelings, exactly. And this is tough, because as Rachel's saying that, I'm like...

not everybody has the same level of awareness. In fact, a lot of people aren't aware and you try to bring it to awareness and it just seems uncomfortable. It doesn't go over so well. Yeah, and it might be your own blind spots and it might be other people's blind spots and lack of awareness. So we'll get deeper into this and give some things we've used and some ideas that I think will be helpful. But yeah, so in essence, without giving away too much information that's personal.

This person that messaged me, they are living with their extended family, who is their husband's extended family. They're living in a different country that's different from her country of origin. It's his country of origin. Um, so there's different, there's children involved. There's a lot there, right? There's a lot of culture. It's, it's country culture and family culture. Exactly. So there's a lot of new world and old world mixing going on here.

that's not just family, but also culture. Now then there's of course the benefit that there is a benefit to having community, to having extended family relationships. One of the things we've talked about often is the fact that in especially Western countries, the nuclear family, it's like the mother is expected to do everything. She's the one stop shop for all of it. And so that also is a kind of.

Rachel Denning (13:37.101)
a new, that's actually a new world thing because old world that there used to be more help for women. They had extended family, they had hired help, they had whatever, slaves sometimes, but that was supporting the family in all of the roles they had to do. And in these other cultures, many of the cultures we've traveled to and around the world, that extended family network is a lot tighter and where this individual is writing from is in one of those cultures where...

a lot of family involved in the whole thing, which again has its pros and cons. So you're like, Oh, I'd love that help. And I was be like, Oh, that would drive me crazy. Yeah, which again, that's going to happen when you live in a one use the word tribe. It takes a whole tribe to takes the whole village, right? When you live in a little village or tribe with your family, your group, your community, you're gonna butt heads with people, you're gonna have disagreements, you can't not.

And so it's how to navigate that. So this topic here, hopefully is going to be super helpful even for you communicating with your spouse and your children, your neighbors, your friends, your community, your church, your business. Like we've got to come up with these tools and strategies and techniques to implement diplomacy and get things done without sacrificing your values. Your own values. Yeah.

because she says, you know, it's getting tougher and tougher to share our intimate spaces, our experiences, our children, when the extended family seems to criticize and question absolute everything we, especially I, do. And then my husband is, of course, caught in the middle. Previous attempts to explain... Man, that's tough. So it's like the ultimate example of the in -laws. So it's like me moving in with you and your family, and I'm the outsider, right? It's all you and your family, I'm the outsider.

It's all the in -laws and they've all, you grew up doing things a certain way, you're all doing the same. And I roll in and be like, well, I don't think so. Yeah, we're gonna do this this way. What? We don't do that around here. Right, which, and we will get into this a lot more because we experienced this. When you're living on your own away from that family influence, you get to decide together as a couple whether or not this is what you want to do. But when you have the added pressure of, well, we're living in this house and this is the way they do it here.

Rachel Denning (15:59.725)
It is a lot more difficult and I want to expand on that more but anyways, they don't seem to be any previous attempts to explain and see eye to eye don't seem to work. There just doesn't seem to be any interest in seeing things differently on their end and it's not so common in this society which can be very homogenous and monolithic. This is not a request for advice about my particular situation but when I think about it, I think of it as a microcosm of where we are as a society.

How do we share spaces, lives, the world with others, including others whom we love, when our value systems seem to be diametrically opposed? Is it best to just create healthy distance and accept these differences? Or have you found a way to create agreement and harmony despite them? Oh, such a great question and articulated so well. And my first response to those questions is yes and yes. That's what I was going to say. Yes, it's actually some of both.

Because with our own personal experience, now of course there was a lot more that went into it, but part of it was we chose as a young couple, we were in our 20s, we had four children under the age of four already, but we chose to leave our own culture, to leave our extended family and to go travel the world as a nuclear family unit. I wanna clarify that.

So we were both leaving our country culture, community culture and extended families culture, all of it. So yeah, there you go, you guys, the city you grow up in, the part of the city you grow up in, the school you went to, your church, maybe a specific congregation in your church, all of those have their own little unique culture. You guys know this, you're like...

School on one side of town versus school on the other side of town can have a very different culture and ideology one congregation over another or one team sport or another or organization a choir orchestra like whatever you're participating in I guess I want to emphasize this I could say her name you know you could go gone and I could go on and on and on everything you're participating in every little social society has a culture

Rachel Denning (18:17.933)
And an element of that. So you've got to be aware of that. That's the first step of awareness that every little bit of society has its own little culture. And they all have their pros and cons. Yes. I was talking to one of my clients is working with gyms, right? And each gym, we were talking about this specifically, each little gym has its culture. Right? Even each CrossFit gym, you know, one side of town versus the other has a different culture, a different feel.

So the awareness of all of that matters. And then we were kind of consciously saying, okay, we're going to step away from your family culture and we're going to step away from my family culture. We're going to step away from our religious culture. We're going to step away from our country culture. Yeah. And we chose to go out and immerse ourselves in other cultures. But essentially in some ways it was a type of bubble in that our family culture became the primary.

I'm sorry I'm getting choked up here but it's not because I'm crying it's because I probably have Omnicron or something.

Rachel Denning (19:29.837)
we chose to go and create a family culture that became kind of a bubble.

in the midst of another culture. So it was very interesting because it provided this level of separation, right, from any other strong cultural influence on our family. Without, it's not that we were living like hermits in the woods, we weren't separated completely from society, we were involved in society, it was just a different society than what we had grown up with.

And because we hadn't grown up there, it gave us a little bit of separation. So now this is a very interesting concept, of course, because it doesn't necessarily always work. There are people who go out and try to separate themselves in order to generate their own culture, but it can become sort of toxic or negative or like this feedback loop that produces small mindedness.

weird ideas and ideologies, sometimes even to the point of, I mean on the extreme of course, it's like brainwashing and abuse and all types of negative things. So that's an idea that has been used that has to be used carefully. Otherwise it can, like if we were legitimately crazy and had not devoted so much time to personal growth and development, that approach,

could have turned out bad. We intentionally separated ourselves from the checks and balances in a way, which we feel for us worked out great because it created this family culture that is strong and united and bonded and healthy, we believe, and has produced great results. But it's something that can also be detrimental if you're not

Rachel Denning (21:33.165)
checking yourself. So I would say one of the key principles and practices here for all of this is having this open mindedness to look for the good everywhere you go. And the way that looked for us is we would go into different cultures or countries and just step in instead of saying, well, we don't do things like that. I've never done things like that. That's weird. That's different. Instead of having this kind of standoffish attitude.

Just stop, be fascinated by it, be curious, be interested in it. Like that is, that is, wow, why do they do things like that? And they've done things like that for hundreds of years or in some cases, thousands of years. I can't even, there's something here and this is so different than what we've done. What can I learn from it? That was a critical component for us. And I think it's gonna be critical in this whole conversation.

Be willing to be curious and interested and seeing what others see and do and why. And see what's there for you to benefit from. Now you might come back and be like, yeah, I thought through it. I was open about it. I was considered. I was curious. Fundamentally, I just disagree. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think the results are solid there. But my guess is you're going to pick up something valuable by being willing.

to open up and consider the other perspective. So you're saying that this is in relation to specifically interacting with family or other people who disagree with your approach and your beliefs. And they themselves have different approach. Yeah. Just roll in and just be like, okay, this is interesting. And be interested. So if they have a totally different... This comes up a lot like, okay, how are we going to raise our kids?

This is where it gets real for Rachel and for me and for our extended families. Because if it's just for us, we're like, okay, whatever. But when it starts to have an influence on our children and the way we want to raise our children, that's when both of us get, we stand our ground. And we desire to be separated. Yes. Not from each other, but from extended family or others who might have a negative influence. I'm like, no, I don't want that influence on my kids. I don't want to raise my children that way. I don't want that kind of...

Rachel Denning (24:00.269)
mindset. I want that kind of attitude. I definitely don't want those habits instilled in my kids. So that's where you draw hard lines, right? So which going back for us, connecting it to why we chose to leave the country, why we chose to travel was part of those reasons we we were learning new things we were growing, developing positive mindsets, you know, all that fun stuff. And

we wanted to raise our children in that type of environment and so we separated ourselves from our surrounding cultures in order to create a more controllable environment in a way. Right. So there is an argument for separation. Yeah, right. But the other side of that is... The danger is like what we mentioned before, in the extreme that can actually become negative because if...

you become this echo chamber to your children and they never have exposure to outside ideas, that's also scary. Right. And you can cause separation from extended family, especially if you're like, well, I want to keep it. Cause we hear that a lot, like, well, I want to go travel, but I want to maintain good relationships with aunts and uncles and cousins and grandparents and keep those relationships up. So how do you, okay, here's a question. How do I stay together and separated?

Right. Right. So obviously there's the physical component of it. You could move. You could move a little further away. It's interesting creating a little bit of separation could be a good thing. You could move temporarily away. Just take your family say, no, we're going to go away for a couple of months or a few months. It's amazing, you guys, what what distance does to relationships.

to especially immediate family relationships, spousal relationships and parent -child relationships. Yep. Well, okay, you're talking about inside your family. I'm talking about with your extended family. Oh, that too. Yeah, you're right. It changes the whole dynamics. If done well, it's really strengthening and bonding for your immediate family. Meaning your... The spouse and the children. Okay. Spouse and children. But then it's also... It can also be actually really good for extended family to have a break. For sibling relationships. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (26:22.989)
Grandparent relationship. I'm saying aunt and uncle sibling relationship. Yep, all that. And so we're going to go away for a while. And it's interesting, like, they'll be like, oh, the big going away party. And like, it's really bond because they're going to be gone for a while. And then when you come back, like, let's really connect. And so you're not taking it for granted anymore. It's like there's some separation here. So let's make our experiences great where if it kind of gets taken for granted and you live down the street and you're bickering all the time. Or you live in the same house and you're getting on each other's nerves. Yeah, in some ways it then...

weakens the relationships because there's more negativity than positivity. And so while sometimes it feels counterintuitive to what you're trying to accomplish by having community, sometimes moving away is the very best thing you can do. For your community. For your community and for your, like you were saying, your immediate tribe, your nuclear family tribe, because you have to grow closer.

You're forced to grow closer because there's no longer the distraction of these other relationships and you get to focus. This, this was so true for us. We got to focus on the kind of family we wanted to create. You and me. We decided there was no, and I, this was one of the best things about the way we raised our kids. There was no, very little to no outside influence or, or.

Influence is the wrong word. Like input. Like somebody else sharing their opinion of like, well, this is how you should do it. Well, and trying to meddle. Extended family, they'll push their way in. They'll stick a foot in the door and then the whole leg. And then they're like, no, no, I'm going to go ahead and do this for your kids. And you're like, no, you're not. You're not going to feed my kids cereal and candy. You know, that was a beautiful part about it. We lived in our own.

I keep using bubble, even though you don't like that. We lived in our own bubble because we were in another culture as a family unit and we got to decide how we did things. And if people looked at us weird, like they were looking at us weird anyways, cause we were foreigners. It wasn't disconcerting because you know, we were, we were strangers in a strange land. And we weren't, we weren't really concerned about what other people thought. Yeah. Right. Which when you remove,

Rachel Denning (28:48.493)
this kind of hypersensitivity around what your extended family and the neighbors think about you. When that's gone, you get to make clearer, more deliberate decisions. Now, the only, again, disclaimers here, the only reason that worked is because Rachel and I are so deliberate about the thoughtfulness of like, what are we doing? Why are we doing it? Let's read from the greatest thinkers and leaders of all time, what works, what doesn't. So we are reading voraciously from across time and space.

And we were constantly questioning, evaluating, interviewing people, studying voraciously. We wanted to know. And exposing ourselves and our children to different views and different opinions. It wasn't, we weren't living in a bubble in the sense that it was, you know, thought police were controlling exactly what you can think and how you can do things and all of that. It wasn't that type of control. It was just a natural separation in that we got to decide how our family was raised. Right.

So where this won't work is if you separate yourselves and then just kind of let life happen or try to control everything. You try to tell your children what they're allowed to do and what they're allowed to read and what they're allowed to think and whether or not they can experience or expose themselves to those ideas or those. Yes, you're right. Thank you for bringing up because we've met plenty of families like that. They're like, that's we're going to homeschool. We're going to separate. We're going to go in the woods. And then they come up with these crazy ideas that are really unfounded and disconnected from.

a healthy reality and they're like, no, this is the way we're doing things. Like, just because that's the way you do it, doesn't mean it's the best way it should be done. Right. Okay. So that's that the first possibility there is a physical separation. The second one is maybe not necessarily a physical separation in that you move away, but that you kind of, you declare your sovereignty and you set up your little

kind of kingdom, but you also set up routines and schedules and you're like, you know, I, maybe there's something particular, like I just, I don't like that at all. Maybe I don't know. I'm gonna like for me, I do not like video games. You guys know that about me. I don't like video games. I don't like these ideas of like watching endless amounts of TV and just things, things that for me, I'm like, that just seems like a waste of life and time. So if we're going to be around people who are doing that, one of my,

Rachel Denning (31:15.341)
for me personally is like, okay, my sovereignty here is we're not going to be around that. So we can be around family, we can be around friends, but we're not going to be around that. And if we are, it's little limited exposure. So there's another way to establish some separation, right? Okay. When they do that, we're out. And it might be around the things that come up often. You guys are, it kind of, it seems insignificant.

But it's important like down to the relationship you have with food and the relationship you have with money, for example. So both of us, Rachel and I both grew up in families that had unhealthy relationships with food and unhealthy relationships with money. And we wanted to establish a brand new culture around that in our family with our children. We wanted them to have a wonderful relationship with food and with money because both of those will establish and determine a

massive amount of quality of your life. Exactly. So those are ones where like, no, like, and again, you have to decide. So here's another element. You have to decide, you have to pick your battles, like which ones really truly matter to you. And if you're willing to draw a line in the sand for that and hold to that, are you willing to walk away when certain conversations come up, certain activities come up when if the family's like, Hey, we all get together to do this. And you're like,

I don't want to raise my kids like that, or I don't want to participate. I don't want to be involved in that. You've got to know what really matters to you, which one you're willing to give a little bit of, you know, give and take here. And then on the other ones, you're like, no, those are my boundaries. That's it. Well, and that being said, I do want to add in the option that you don't necessarily have to turn it into a battle because you could potentially draw the line.

Craig, just open the door. Now I'm making all kinds of noise here. You could just take the key out of the... There we go. Okay. Okay. Sorry. You could just draw the line mentally without having to physically or verbally draw a line because if you use diplomacy and if you use skill and secret skill and your tactics, you could just...

Rachel Denning (33:37.741)
Always happen to have a phone call when the conversation doesn't. Always just happen to have a legitimate excuse. We have to leave now guys because this is happening. And so you kind of evade those things without necessarily making it a huge deal. Like, oh, I don't want to participate in your ice cream Sunday fest because blah, blah, blah. You're going to die because you're killing yourselves. You know, you don't have to go into that kind of thing. You can just say, you know what? We've decided that.

this is important to us. And so when it happens, we're going to leave whatever it is like. Yeah, you're exactly right. So you could have a conversation about it if it's specific comes up or you could address it if you want, you could draw the line out loud, so to speak, if you want to, or you could just say, Hey, look, as a family, when this happens, we're just going to discreetly disengage. Now, of course.

in order for that to happen in a family situation with your children, your kids have to be on board or they're going to be putting up a stink. So again, you've also got to pick your own battles with your children. Now, you know, in something, in a situation like that, we talk to our kids and we explain what our personal values and standards are and why we have those and what the long -term outcomes are of certain choices. And then we do allow them to choose and if necessary, we will use bribery, right?

We'll say, hey, if you don't, I just told my seven year old the other day, because she goes to a dance class and of course they give her a sucker afterwards and I said, you know what, if you stop eating that sucker that, or taking the sucker that they give you, I'll pay you and then you can end up buying some more Legos or something. So, you know, that's another way, same with the family situation. When we go to visit family, we talk to our teens, we let them decide, but I'm like.

You need to show, if you want to be spending time with your cousins, that you're gonna make good choices about video games and food. Like, you have to be responsible. Because they already get the concept of why those things can be destructive. Now it's just practicing in those situations.

Rachel Denning (35:44.909)
So that's another alternative too, is that you separate yourself mentally from it while still choosing to be around them, but to not engage in the activity. That's the next level. It's actually really good practice for you and your kids to be around it without participating in it. Yeah. And it starts with you modeling that. And if, obviously if that's something you have a hard time doing, then it's better to leave. But if you can, if you get to that level, you can still stay.

and not participate and still be pleasant. This is something man, this is one that really has to be addressed and people need to practice this. It comes up a lot in conversations, questions, coaching where they're like, how do I do that? How do I like not participate? I'm like, easy. Because one of my clients - Easy for you because you've had a lot of practice. Well, okay. Yeah. So one of my clients was doing like multi -day fasting, right? I'm like, oh, fantastic. It's great. Like, whoa, I just can't -

I can't be there with my family if they're eating. I'm like, why not? Like, well, cause they're eating. I'm like, and? Like you can't sit at the table and be fully engaged and happy and pleasant and totally participating in the family togetherness without eating. Of course you can like, come on. And, and you could, you know, if everyone's eating one thing and you grab a salad, great, do that. And of course people are always going to say stuff. They're like, Oh yeah, Mr. Ruffa. And they're like, yep.

They razz me for being a style. Absolutely. Right. And I can just like smile and say, yep, and then keep on rolling. Like it doesn't have to be an issue. So you're right. You can stay right there present, right there engaged and not make it awkward. Model that for your kids. So when they go out in the world and they're exposed to all kinds of things, they can still hold a standard. And obviously I think what we're demonstrating here out.

outlining is layers. There's multiple levels here. And so in a lot of ways you have to look at the different situations you're facing, the different areas of conflict and see what is the most appropriate response. Is it space and separate separation? Do we just like get away from this? Or is it this we get away only when that thing's happening? Or do we choose to still be there?

Rachel Denning (38:12.461)
and engage and yet not participate. And how you respond to that or how you choose to take that on is going to depend a lot on where you are personally with your own journey with this. Because a lot of us, we think, oh yeah, we're using eating healthier as an example. We'd like to eat healthier, but you're not committed enough to that lifestyle choice for you to be able to do it when you're around people who are eating ice cream and candy.

So in that case, if you realize that about yourself, then yes, the best thing for you to do is separation. You need to separate yourself from that situation in order to build your own strength and commitment to that lifestyle. Same with something like homeschooling or filling the blank.

So let's run through some possible scenarios. Because I can see people like, okay, what about in this situation? Or what about in this situation? How could I handle that? And we'll just throw out some possibilities here. Again, the first step here is absolute clarity. You have got to get clear. About what you want. And if they do something that bothers you, like what is it that bothers you? Why does that bother you so much? I think that's a powerful exercise in awareness right there when you...

recognize that something bothers you and then can actually pinpoint exactly what it is. Exactly. So it has to start there. That's the first step. So then you are being bothered by things in your family or by other people pinpoint exactly what it is. Why does this bother me? And what's the root cause of that? And once you're clear on that, then ask yourself, can I dislike the thing and still like the person? There's a separate distinction there. Most of us,

just by default, we kind of grow up and if there's something that bothers us, we automatically get bothered by the person. Yeah. And we just don't like them. We don't want to be around them anymore. It's bitterness and enmity and it's in sports and politics, religion. You just are like, Oh, you're from that political group. Ooh. When you probably could be like best friends. And I mean, one of the things that I think has allowed us to have,

Rachel Denning (40:26.125)
such an enjoyable life is that we've developed the ability to be around people who have completely opposite opposing, totally disagree with views and yet still have a good time. Even be good friends. And even be good friends and even be able to sit down and have dinner and have a conversation and like we can do all of that totally disagreeing with everything they said. And just enjoying ourselves. I don't even know how you can believe that. But you know what? We're just going to have a great time. This is great.

We're enjoying ourselves. And we practiced that there was this time period we lived in Central America, this this wonderful place is this organic farm. And every Friday, they had this meal, this huge table. And anyone was welcome. Anyone was welcome. So people from all over the world from every kind of background and philosophy and ideology would come and sit at a table and share their ideas. We heard some crazy stuff at that table.

And it was a blast. We loved it. Kids loved it. We just got together with people from all over the place and just heard what they believed and shared what we believed. And we were very different in that group, you know, big old family with seven kids. We didn't have seven kids at the time, but big family and living life the way we did. And it was fascinating. Like most of them thought we were crazy, but most of them also respected the way we were doing life. And

And we learned and grew and we're exposed to all these ideas and we were able to separate the idea from the person. The idea from the individual. Right? So again, get clear about what you want. Get clear about what bothers you. Get clear about the opposite thing. So like if this is specifically what bothers you, then what is it that you want? What's your ideal? What's the opposite of that thing? And then just get strategic. Like how, how could we work that out?

can I still be pleasant around that person? How can I draw a boundary? Yeah, I'm going to introduce this idea here because it could be a good one and a relevant one to what we're discussing. There's a book that we listened to and discussed as a family and I'm sure Greg will think of the title as I'm talking about it but essentially he was talking he was discussing the fact that they're in your

Rachel Denning (42:48.781)
journey of growth and development, you do have to start identifying and being a little bit choosy about the people that you allow in your life. And one of the principles he taught is that you need to decide if certain people are what type of friend they are, is what he called it. And he even, he gave them numbers. Some people are three minute friends. Some people are three week friends. The compound effect.

compound effect, thank you. Bye. Darren Hardy. Okay. Some people are three month friends. Some people are three year friends. And what that essentially means is that he was talking about positivity and being able to stay positive essentially in the pursuit of your goals and dreams. And there are some people in your family, in your family and in your friend group and in your community who you can't spend more than three minutes.

around them or they start to drag you down. Now there are some people that you can spend longer than three minutes but maybe at three hours they're starting to drag you down and he's talking about your like your exact your physical emotional energy levels. Spiritual all of it. After being around them for three hours you just start to feel drained. And you're not your best self anymore you start doing and saying things that are below your own standards. Even if you're just being resentful or angry or whatever.

then there's some people that, you know, that might take three days and some it might take three weeks. So there is this categorization of people that needs to happen. Now that feels a little judgmental, it feels a little harsh, but yet it is a reality of life. And those that want to be very intentional about the life that they create, that does have to include the people that they allow into their life, especially,

in large amounts of time. So if you're going to allow people to be a part of your life in large amount of times, you better be sure that they're the like three week or three months or three year type people, if that makes sense. And so in just a plain reality, we do have to make assessments of people and judgments. And we have to decide what kind of people I want in my life because they will have an impact on you. Input determines output.

Rachel Denning (45:13.965)
and the people you spend time with, especially a lot of time with, they absolutely will affect who you become and who your children become. Yes. So that might sound harsh, but you know, some of you are like, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to judge anyone. I'm just going to let things go. Well, let's see how that turns out for you, because it's not going to be pretty. And this is in no way a judgment on their worth as a human being. All human beings have worth. And like we were talking about, even if they have ideas that are completely opposite from yours and beliefs,

they still have worth and value. That's not what this is a judgment of. This is simply a judgment on how they personally affect you. And if they have a negative impact on you, that's what you need to concern yourself with. Some people might have a very positive effect on lots of people and have a negative effect on you for whatever reason.

One of my favorite quotes, which I actually have never been able to find again since it became one of my favorites because I've looked for it But I think it was by CS Lewis And he said something like people are like vegetables. Yes, you don't have to like all of them So, you know, some people are broccoli and some are asparagus and you might not like broccoli and that's okay You don't have to eat broccoli if that's not your preferred vegetable And the way you said something just made something click for me. I want to point out

Just because you might disagree with somebody's stance or philosophies or ideas doesn't make them bad and doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't be around them because their ideas are different. I know some people want to be sheltered so much that they will not expose their kids just to people who have different ideas. They build an echo chamber. Yeah, we are not talking about that. I have no problem having my kids around people who have different ideas and I have different ideas. What I'm talking about is like...

something that I can see is like, yeah, that could be detrimental to habits and attitudes and mindsets and things like that. I'm in no way afraid of like taking my kids and going out and having conversations with people have totally different ideas. In fact, I love that stuff and I love talking to my kids about it. And we'll watch things like that. We'll seek out opportunities like that. Cause we want to expose ourselves to all kinds of different things. See where we have blind spots where we're not understanding things. So I'm not.

Rachel Denning (47:32.557)
We're not suggesting that like, well, these are the people that don't agree with your. Yeah, exactly. That is not at all what we're saying because you end up just so myopic that way. We're referring to here and I think the main question is like, okay, like, I really want to live a certain way. And there's so much kickback from that. How do we handle it? So.

I want to invite you to establish firm firm boundaries. Because what what you don't want to do is just let people push you around and not have any boundaries. Every relationship needs boundaries. Your marriage needs boundaries, your parenting needs boundaries. Every relationship has got to have firm boundaries. So establish some firm boundaries. When people push on that, either look for opportunities to just just tactfully step away and kind of keep the distance. If they keep

pushing or they keep saying things, then have an, I mean, and do this beforehand. Think through it. Think through what they might say or what you've heard them say and think through what you want to say and then have the conversation, right? Have, have a conversation where you understand them and then you make sure they understand you. So there's a lot of understanding there and you tell them why you want to do what you do.

And at the end of that, if you feel like, yeah, they understand me, understand me, and you still disagree, then that's where you draw a boundary and say, okay, I'm going to keep doing this and I would like it, please. I'm going to respect you. I'd like you to respect me. I don't want you to talk about it anymore. So we would like to come around. We would like you to have a relationship with our kids. We'd like you to be in our lives, but I am going to ask you not to talk about that anymore. That's a boundary. And then you have to be willing to stick to it and say, and if, if you don't honor that,

we're just not going to come around anymore. Or when you bring it up, we're gone. And you don't have to, you don't have to get angry. You don't have to shout and yell and scream. Just, just call me love like, Hey, okay. Now we understand each other. This is, I'm still choosing this. This is how I'm going to do things. Um, and, and if, if you can't respect that we're out, you've got to have those kinds of boundaries. So there is a time where you kind of escalate it to different levels. Yeah. That doesn't necessarily mean with everything because obviously that would be.

Rachel Denning (49:52.045)
over the top, but with things that really matter to you, maybe it's homeschooling. Here's what that's okay. So I'll give you examples. This has come up a lot with families who choose to homeschool and then their extended family members are just tearing them up every time they come around. Oh, when you're putting your kids in school, oh, so you're ruining your kids life. Every single time. Look, I've thought through this. I'm, I'm deliberate about this. Like this is the path we want to choose. We're not going to send our kids to school and the in -laws or the mom or whatever just won't let.

up, they will not let that go. And so then you're like, okay, at some point, you have to draw the line there and say, you know what, love you, I listen to you, you listen to me, and we still disagree, we're done. Don't bring it up again. This is the path we've chosen. And I don't want I heard your input. Thank you. I acknowledge it. And I thought about it, like we're holding our ground here. And I don't want you to say another word to us about it. And you can still keep a good relationship. Just say you're not talking about that anymore.

Sometimes that is a legitimate useful strategy is that the best way to deal with some things is just to not talk about them. Because sometimes people are of such different opinions that not that there could never be a solution or there could never be an agreement, but I think it requires a lot more diplomatic skill than most people have. And it has to be on both sides.

and it has to be existed, that diplomatic skill has to exist on both sides. That's a rare scenario. Like if you were a lawyer or you're in diplomatic relations or something, maybe you could be prepared for that. But in a general family situation, there's not probably gonna be enough diplomacy for you to work through that type of conversation in such depth that both could come to an understanding agreement of like, yes, I understand you and we actually came up with.

solution that will work for all of us. So sometimes you just might have to say, you know what, we're just not going to talk about this subject because we can't agree on it. Perfect. So as long as that subject's avoided, you might actually be able to continue and maintain a good relationship with that person. Yeah, exactly. What's wrong with that? We just are never with you. I'm never talking about politics with you. I'm never talking about education.

Rachel Denning (52:11.789)
With you, I'm never talking about food or whatever it is. Like if it can't be resolved, then just be like, hey, we're not going there. And they're like, hey, hey, let's, you know, the thing I'm like, I'm out. And you just literally go in the other room. That can be done with diplomacy of just saying, you know what, we've tried and this generally just ends in bad feelings. And I love you enough that I don't want that to happen. There's plenty of other things we can talk about. We don't need to talk about this subject. And I can hear some of you right now saying, well, I have this brother.

That's the only thing he ever talks about. Let him talk and you just listen. Well, but then if you don't want to hear it and it's just craziness and you're like, I'm done with you just ranting and raving. It's that negative energy that starts to have an impact on you or your family. Just ask him, be like, Hey bro, I don't want to talk about it anymore. Like I disagree or whatever. I'm he talking about all the time. Like, can we just talk about some other stuff? And if you won't, if he insists on playing that same piano key, some people are like that they play two or three keys and that's it.

They play that thing endlessly. And you're like, I just can't even be around that anymore. Cause that's all you obsess about. So look, if you, if you can't talk about something else, bro, like I'm not going to come around more. When you bring it up, I'm going to go in the other room or I'm going to go do other things. That's another one of those judgments of like, okay, this guy's a three minute guy. Like I can talk to him for three minutes and that's about it. Cause right after our greeting, he starts going off on his, his hobby horse.

And you can do it like you can bring a book or an audio book or a podcast. You mean just you can still be a productive and you know what I'm saying? Just like, okay, we're going to be here. The kids want to hang out and play with their cousins. Like, okay, but I'm just going to step into the room and work on something or learn something that there's ways to. Which isn't always popular with the in -laws. But. But again, we're not in a popularity contest here. You got to decide what matters to you and hold your ground on it and with as much diplomacy as possible.

and learn how to articulate your, your ideas and philosophies so you can really get to understand people and have meaningful conversations about why it matters. And then after that's done, if it still can't go on, then draw the line. Well, which though is useless if you're interacting with people who don't want to have meaningful conversations. And back to what you said before a minute ago, I mean, it's not a popularity contest. The challenge with being intentional,

Rachel Denning (54:35.501)
challenge of living deliberately and trying to create this new world, so to say, as opposed to the status quo, is it's lonely. There's not a lot of people taking that path, unfortunately. And so very often you are going to be viewed as weird or unsocial or fill in the blank of whatever it is they think you're doing that's just...

comes off as blowing them off or not liking them or...

just trying to be better than them, be better than them or whatever it is. Like all of that is definitely involved. And it's not a. Well, I just want to ask, like, are you okay with that? Yeah. And a lot of times people aren't okay with that. So they end up going along to get along. Yep. And I remember in the end that doesn't create what it is you're actually trying to create. Right. Which was, this was a journey for both of us. And I hope this is helpful right here. We had to go through this process and luckily we could do it together.

And at first it was quite painful. Yeah, like it was lonely trying to be unconventional. Oh man, it because people thought we were out of our minds and we'd go back and we'd say, are we, are we out of our minds? Are we crazy? And we reevaluate, we think about it, we consider it and we read more books. Yeah. Do all of our kind of homework. So to speak. And then we're like, no, this, this is it. We're going to stay here.

And it took a while, but then we realized, okay, are we willing to deal with the consequences of living in an unconventional way for breaking away from the masses? And I kind of remember that point with you and I was like, yeah, it's worth it. Well, whatever that, you know, it might be ostracized or made fun of or whatever. We might miss it on some things, but.

Rachel Denning (56:36.301)
is worth it. So that's what I'm sending that question to you. You gotta decide what's worth it for you. Where you're gonna draw that line and say, you know, if I stay over here, is it worth it? And if it is, then do it and be happy with it and know that there's gonna be some kickback, but like, okay, all right, I'm okay with that. And you keep moving forward with your ideals, your values, your standards. Wait, wait.

I get so passionate about this. You can't just go along with whatever. You can't just have a whatever happens lifestyle. Especially if the only reason you're doing that is to avoid conflict. Stand your ground. Have standards, have values, have ideals. Hold them. Otherwise you'll just be disappointed and be resentful to yourself and other people because you didn't take a stand for something. You didn't stand for anything. Because you let them tell you how to live.

And just because they're loud doesn't mean they're right.

So, I love this stuff.

So hopefully that's helpful. So yeah, as far as answering the question of how do we share spaces or lives, the world with others, including those who don't share a value system or our beliefs, sometimes separation is the answer. And sometimes it's diplomacy, diplomacy. And ultimately that is what creates.

Rachel Denning (58:12.973)
at least levels of harmony and agreement.

Absolutely. But you have to be very clear on what you're willing to put up with, so to say, when it comes to that. Because depending on what it is you want, that will determine the level of separation you have from those around you, I think. Absolutely. So don't be... We used to be very narrow -minded, extremely narrow -minded. Oh, yeah. And we lived in this teeny little reality.

which was an echo chamber and we blew past that, right? And it wasn't, we got to this point, like I said earlier, like where it depends on the person. I think it depends on the person. Cause I can sit down with some people that have totally opposite views from me and we can just sit there and talk and have a great old time and discuss it back and forth. Then there's somebody else, you know, whether they, the way they carry themselves or the way they talk about or whatever, not open ideas, they present this opposite. I'm like, I can't even be around you, man.

like at all and I don't want to like this negative energy or whatever. So figure out this place where you can live in harmony. You can be around, even be friends with people who have very different ideas from you and you can learn from them and they can learn from you. But you, you live in, in harmony until there's times where you got to stand your ground and there's a little bit of conflict. I hate conflict.

But there's times where you gotta stand your ground. Yeah, and this just made me think of something real quick before we close that, yeah, part of the key to this, I think living in agreement and harmony is not having, you kind of touched on it before, not having every battle be your battle. Some people are like that. And I think maybe that's what you're talking about is they pick, they have these hard, strong opinions on every single issue and it doesn't matter what it is that they're going to argue their point on that. For me,

Rachel Denning (01:00:11.565)
Unless it's a real lifestyle piece for my family or for me and you know, the way I do life. Otherwise I have my opinions, but I'm not likely to share them because it's not that important. I don't need to talk to you about whether or not drinking milk is good or bad. You know what I mean? What kind of milk even? What kind of milk you drink, right? And yet she's extremely passionate about that. Oh, I have...

I have tons of opinions on that, but I'm not gonna go around having that conversation with everyone just because they happen to drink that, think that drinking milk is great or thinking that it's terrible, right? That's not my mission, my purpose, my passion, my path, per se, right? But other things, yeah, maybe I really am gonna draw that line in the sand and say, no, actually this, not okay. I am gonna have to have that conversation with you, especially when...

it interacts with my life. I think those are the key points. When it's directly impacting your life, that's when you've got to say things. If not, if you're passing someone in the store or at dinner with friends, you don't need to make that a battleground on every issue that you might have an opinion about. Yeah, for the most part, we can kind of go through life saying, hey, this is cool. You do you, I'll do me.

I can be curious about what you think, you know, you can share your opinion. Great. I'm going to listen. But I'm not going to meddle in their affairs. But I don't feel like I have to convince you that you're wrong. Exactly. And I don't want you stepping in. I mean, I'd love to hear your insights, but I don't want you stepping in trying to push around and change things. This is just an idea. And this is maybe one way that we deal with this is that if we are out talking to people and we disagree with what they say, that's not...

To us, that's not the place to discuss it, but we love to discuss it afterwards and to try to understand why they might have that viewpoint and how they arrived at it and where the flaws might be in those arguments. We like to do that among you and me, so that's the outlet for that. Maybe some people don't have that and so they're trying to do it with that person in the moment and creating this conflict. And that has a time and place, but I think for the most part, if you're trying to...

Rachel Denning (01:02:34.445)
have more agreement and harmony in the world or with the people you're interacting with, it's not healthy to do that day in and day out because then you become that person that people just don't like. Love it. Okay, be loving, be open, be curious, but have firm boundaries on the things that matter most and be willing to separate yourself from those who negatively impact you.

those boundaries if necessary. Boom. That's it. Love it. Love you guys. Reach out for.

Rachel Denning (01:03:20.589)
you

you

Rachel Denning (01:03:30.701)
Thank you for still being here and thank you for listening to our podcast. If you find value in it, will you do us a favor and please leave a review on Apple podcasts or any other podcast player. And if you are ready to take the next step in leveling up your family life, please visit ExtraordinaryFamilyLife .com. You can find courses and challenges and workshops and coaching in marriage, parenting, money, manhood, and don't forget that Greg has his

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Rachel Denning (01:04:27.501)
you