#175 Q&A Sneaky Teens, Forbidden Apps, Pornography, Masturbation, Device Usage, Teen Sex and More! Oh My.

Rachel Denning (00:10.734)
Hey everybody, we received some more great questions about parenting and we are addressing those today. We love receiving questions by the way, so if you have one or more than one, please don't hesitate to ask us. You can leave us a voice message at our podcast page or you can email us support at extraordinaryfamilylife .com. The first question is about teen device usage and sneaky behavior. A parent said, we're having an issue with our son's cell phone usage. We limit it and have always made him turn on his cell phone at night.

to promote good healthy habits, but I just discovered he's been hiding an old cracked cell phone that he's been using at night. He also has apps such as TikTok and Snapchat that we do not allow. I know that the phones and apps are made to be addicting. I just don't know how to approach this issue. I'll be turning off the wifi at night now, but how do you deal with this sneaking second phones and apps? It indicates to me that he may be addicted to these apps in his phone. I'm curious if you've encountered this before. It's very concerning to us.

We will be diving into this question and providing some great strategies for dealing with issues like this. The second question is also very relevant with serious long -term consequences. This parent says, I'd like to request for you and your husband to talk about the sex drive in teenage boys specifically. As a parent, how do you guide them so that they can handle their quote unquote urges in a healthy manner? How do you educate them so they don't fall prey to the use of pornography? What are the best ways to support them instead of shaming them for having these normal desires?

Our society is so full of trashy messages about sex, masturbation, pornography, et cetera. I honestly worry about what the future of these young men holds. This is a very important question that we're going to be giving some very clear and useful strategies for dealing with. If you have kids, make sure that you listen to this very important episode. This episode has been sponsored by our Extraordinary Parenting Bundle. You don't have to be perfect to be an extraordinary parent.

Parenting is a skill that can be learned, practiced, and improved. You can learn and practice how to prevent problems, create peace, and build something extraordinary in your family. Let us show you the habits of successful families that they use to intentionally live and create more order, vision, and joy in their family life. Visit ExtraordinaryFamilyLife .com and click the link at the top for parenting and start today learning simple ways to seriously level up your parenting skills.

Rachel Denning (02:38.03)
Good afternoon everybody or good morning or good evening wherever you are. Good day to you. Just good. Welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are pumped today. I'm kind of fired up so. Are you sure? Are you nervous? No, I'm fired up. There might be a rant coming. You know, can you feel it? Can you feel a rant coming sometimes? I can. I've gotten to a point where I'm like...

And it may not even, I just feel fired up and then whatever topic comes up, it's getting a handful. It's getting, I'm going to unload whatever it is. Or, or I get a certain topic and I'm like, Oh man, that one, you, I gotta speak. Like our last podcast episode. Oh, I don't remember. Sexperts. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I got fired up on that too. Maybe I get fired up about a lot of things. Okay. So today we're going to continue.

with answering some questions. So kind of Q &A sessions. This one has mostly to do with parenting. So some very specific, very relevant parenting issues or problems or difficulties. But ultimately, I hope you're all listening, even if like your kids are little or wherever you're at, listen carefully because what we're going to talk about today has fundamental.

underlying issues that if done well, we know this. I think everyone knows this, but it's almost like we know it, but we don't know it. If you don't do parenting right, it turns into a disaster. You raise a troubled human that goes around spreading trouble and gets married to trouble and then double trouble creates more trouble. And then, holy cow, you're dealing with...

Lots of trouble. Lots and lots of trouble. Which is, well we did a whole coaching session talking about that. How most problems in the world are caused by bad parenting. Yeah. Yeah, you cause trouble. Well and what you said a minute ago too, like even if you don't have teenagers, because some of what we're talking about relates, well yeah, relates to teenagers. If you think, oh that doesn't, I don't need to pay attention to that because that's not relevant to me. I mean that's a mistake. Don't do that.

Rachel Denning (05:03.982)
That's where the problems pop up in teens. I'll start there boldly. Most of the problems that are happening with teenagers started when they were little kids. And I'm going to be so bold. I love you. If we were together, I'd give you a hug before I say this, but it's on you. Now there are some exceptions, but the vast majority of problems with kids ultimately is a parenting problem. Yeah. And part of...

Part of this problem comes from that type of thinking where you're like, oh, that doesn't relate to me. I don't need to think about it. You should be thinking about raising teenagers right now from the time your kids are small because you have to have that - Unless you're blessed to think about it as a teen. That's really where you start thinking about it. What kind of parent am I going to be? Okay, sorry. Good job. Right, because unless you have this forward thinking approach, it's like -

I don't know if this is the best analogy. It's like straining deck chairs on the Titanic. Or you're like, you're just dealing with the problem when it shows up and that's the worst time to deal with the problem. You need to be trying to anticipate problems and prevent problems and be thinking ahead on these things. Like what am I going to do when my kids are teens? What kind of relationship are we going to have? Because ultimately the best parenting comes down to great relationships. If you don't have a great relationship with your kid or your teen.

it's infinitely harder to parent them. There's a book called Hold On To Your Kids and he says, parenting hacks and tips and tricks don't work because ultimately if your child is not open to being parented by you, it doesn't matter what you do or say, they're not gonna receive that information. The only way they will is if they are actively attaching to you as a person.

Well, that's the key, which we talk about all the time and I'm sure will come up again today, the key to influence and impact. Like if you're going to have any sway in your kid towards good, it's ultimately on who you are as a person, that relationship you've built. And I guess I want to just reemphasize even before you dive into the specifics here, you have to be a forward facing parent. And when your kids are little, you're thinking about not, okay, let me.

Rachel Denning (07:32.11)
Let me say this so it's not misunderstood. Forward facing, but then... Present living? Really present action, right? So you take action today, but forward facing. So what happens with the forward facing, so you're looking ahead towards their teens and then looking ahead towards when they're adults. So I'm constantly thinking about my kids as adults, but I don't get lost there. I'm not living out this future and neglecting today, because then the future will never come. It'll be a disaster. It'll be my fault.

but I'm also not just addressing the present because then I get, it's easy to get disoriented. So future facing gives you your orientation. Like, oh, this is where we're going. So focus, not focus, fix your sight on the future and concentrate on today with that being your guiding principle, right? What will my kids be like as teens? What will be like as adults? Now let's get to work.

So I'm really present here, but I've oriented myself instead of like whatever pops up whatever pops up and I'm just constantly dealing with all All these things that are coming up fires here and there and problems here and there and that's it and I never we never pick a direction well, and the way I'm envisioning this in my head while you're speaking is You're focusing on I want to have this kind of relationship with my adult child When they grow up and so today I'm going to treat them in a way that would

foster that type of future relationship as opposed to I don't even think about that and today my kid is being annoying and spilling milk and screaming and yelling and so I behave in a reactive way that's potentially damaging or most likely damaging that future relationship that you would like to have. I guess that's how I'm picturing it. One, yes I love that, one thought on that because I know I've heard this before.

where parents will think, well, I want to have a good relationship, so I'm definitely not going to discipline my kids, right? Because I don't want them to not like me. And I'm like, whoa, they will not respect you at all. Right, exactly. And so you, parenting's tough, man. It's complex. Because you have to be able to do both of those things. You do need to discipline. You do need to set boundaries. But you need to do it in a way that's not authoritarian and relationship damaging. So, ooh, this is good. Because...

Rachel Denning (09:50.958)
in teaching, but particularly in discipline and correcting, if you don't do it, they won't respect you. If you do it wrong, they won't respect you. So let's just say there's this little spot there where you'll earn respect and everything else is disrespect. And I think that's true and accurate. Right. It's the narrow path. How you, yeah, you're right. It's almost like you're on this ridge and you got

real exposure on both sides and you're walking this ridge and you can't go too far to either side or you lose respect and once you lose respect man it's hard to get it back if it ever and respect is critical if your children do not respect you yeah aim into your influence respect and trust one of the reminders I have on my phone every week

is you can't have a high performing family without high levels of trust. If you're going to have that relationship that you envision, where you respect each other and you're actually friends when you're older, you have to build that trust now with them. And so you have to be able to discipline and mentor and guide and love in a way that builds trust instead of breaking it down. And you've heard a saying, I will preach it endlessly.

Trust is built on character and competence. So in every part of your relationship and interaction with your kids, and they are watching, man, you think they're not watching, you think your littles aren't paying attention, they're absorbing everything. We're at a really fun stage right now where we're having high level discussions with our teens, thinking our littles are just in the other room playing, oh no. They are keying in on everything. And they come in answering the question, and you're like, wow. That was amazing. That was quite insightful.

But like our eight year old right now, she loves engaging our conversations and she'll say brilliant things. And so we're going and going and going and just almost like the littles are in the corner playing their cute little games with each other. And I'm like, oh, they're not hearing this. And I don't know where they'll pop up and be like, well, I think it's this. Wow. That was so insight. It's so perceptive. Yeah. Sage said something like that this morning. It was so funny. Yeah. We were talking about.

Rachel Denning (12:11.502)
We're talking about, oh, if somebody, like if Aliyah, if somebody were to threaten Aliyah, would the family kind of stand up and fight for her? And somebody's like, yeah, would dad fight for Aliyah to protect her? And Sage, who's eight, just pops up, she's like, I think dad would just say, fight for yourself.

Defend yourself. And I was like, oh, we all started laughing. I was like, yes. Which was hilarious. Now, some people might think, why would you do that? Why would you make your 15 -year -old daughter fight for yourself? But she was saying in this context because she's been going to Croft classes with you and she's been training and she's very tough. And so it's kind of this like, you're tough enough. You can handle this. You got this one. But it was so perceptive of Sage to pick up on that. She knows that about me. I'm like, hey.

Fight for yourself and you got it. I'm here if you need it, but fight for yourself. And the little, like she's growing up with that reality. Our little girls are going up like, no, my dad expects me to fend for myself. He'll be there if I need it, but he expects me to just take up my own battles. And it's a really cool thing. But as you're going along, make no mistake about it. Your kids are paying attention. They're watching.

And so in every aspect of your life, you have to be constantly asking and assessing, do I have character and do I have competence? And it's not, I don't think it's all or nothing. Oh, I think it's definitely levels in almost every aspect of life. Like, you know, I have no competence in fixing the car. So I turn to you for that. Like you don't trust me to fix the car, but I do have confidence in, you know, doing a website or something. And so,

turn to me. Right. And and so there's going to be bits and pieces now in that right. So I don't I don't lose any trust with you as a person in our relationship because you can't fix the car. Right. But if I if maybe you had a hard time communicating maybe had no competence in sharing your feelings or expressing yourself well is that going to carry over to other aspects of relationships. Yeah. Completely right. Or honesty.

Rachel Denning (14:29.678)
Honesty comes up with character and competence, right? Or, I mean, there's other parts that play into it, is what I want to say. And kids will pick up on it. And they'll be like, I don't know. Yes, they pick up on it in ways that even sometimes adults can't articulate. They definitely can't articulate it. They don't know, but they just get this sense of like, OK, I get a feeling here of what's going on, even though they can never put that into words. Isn't that beautiful? Mm -hmm. They...

They are so perceptive.

Kids are so pretty. It's beautiful. You're right. I've seen it. I've observed it when they pick up on something and they can't articulate it. They can't say it and you just see it. They sense it and then something's not right. So in the biggest way possible, you parent who you are. So we can give you strategies.

and you can go out and get tips and tricks and tools. And I see these really popular parenting experts on social media or whatever, and their channels are like endless tips and tricks and strategies. And to that I almost always think, man, you are straightening deck chairs on a Titanic. Because I've been working with families and youth and parents for over two decades, and I know exactly where that goes.

If you have all the right tips and tricks and strategies without the foundation, it's just a disaster. I mean, it just doesn't end well. Now on the other side, you can have the foundation, which is awesome and that's pretty solid, but without, you know, the strategy, it doesn't work. The foundation's like, yeah, it's there, but it just kind of stumbles along and like, man, this is so much harder than it needs to be.

Rachel Denning (16:29.934)
So creating this combination of having this really solid foundation, the chassis so to speak that you're going to build your family on, it's you and who you are as a person, character, competence, trust. And building that out, then adding on top of it the strategy. Yes. So which we're going to touch on both those things in answering these questions today which we haven't gotten to.

But this is the answer to all of it. This is our way and that's fine. And they'll reach out and be like, what about this specific instance? And I was like, it's so much more than a specific instance. We can't say, oh, for this thing, do this, right? Insert this solution right here. Unless you had the whole chassis built out, everything's in place, there's total trust, there's impact, there's influence, there's loving home, the dynamics are amazing.

then it's easy, we just say, oh yeah, do this, and they're like, okay, and it works. But we have to make sure that we're trying to convey that all of this is required. We can't just say do this and it will work. It will only work if you have this, like you said, the chassis. The whole package. I guess that's a car thing. Yeah, it's like the frame, it's the frame of the car or the trailer, whatever, you build everything else on it. And if that's compromise or the foundation of the house, if that's not solid, then whatever you build on top, ultimately it's gonna come down. Exactly. So,

If this sounds like a lot of work. Parenting ain't for wimps. Maybe you should give your children back. Except that's not an option. So buckle up. Buttercup. Okay. Good. Let's get into the question. Okay. So the first question is related to device usage. Which we get a lot of. Obviously is a challenge in this age of parenting because we are pioneering this. I mean, I know for us.

We are the first generation of parents to have children who have devices. And they grew up with them. Our kids now were just born in a device world. You and I, in our 40s, we did not. We were into our teens when devices started to become a part of it. Exactly. And I don't think we owned our first smartphones until we were married with four or five kids. And then we had a clunky one. We thought it was so awesome.

Rachel Denning (18:54.83)
But our children don't remember before that time really. So they've grown up with devices. So as parents, this is a new thing. Everyone's trying to figure this out as we go. So the question is, you know. Josh, that just brings back this fun memory. Rachel and I, we were living in Costa Rica and the kids were all little and we got a chance to, we had round trip tickets that came up on an alert for so cheap to go to Peru.

And I was like, babe, let's go. We'll just fly to Lima just to eat. Because you guys, Peruvian food is some of the best food on the planet. So I was like, let's just go eat. Let's just go from restaurant to restaurant. And so we took our kids, but on that layover. No, we didn't take her. No, we took one kid. We took a baby. We took one child, and we left the rest of them by themselves. By themselves on this. With our maid. And.

The hippie neighbor next door. It was amazing. Anyways, but the reason I brought it up is because when we had a layover in Panama and that airport is awesome and we bought an iPad. We bought our first iPad. Yeah, we bought our first iPad. I was like, where is this going? And all the little kids, like we came home and they're like, what? We still have that iPad. We still have that iPad. And that was this introduction. And then they've all used it and use it regularly. I think we use iPads every single day for educational purposes. But that...

It came in early on and Sage was one. She turned one on that trip and so she's eight. Yeah, so she's had the iPad. Yeah, and she still uses the iPad. And still uses it every day. Okay, anyways, a little detour down memory lane to the question. Having an issue with our son's cell phone usage and I'm hoping to get your input. We limit it and have always made him turn in his cell phone at night to promote good healthy habits. I just discovered he's been hiding an old

cracked cell phone that he has been using at night. He also has apps. There's a problem right there. It's a crack. No crack. I'm just kidding. Okay. He also has apps such as TikTok and Snapchat that we do not allow. I know that the phones and apps are made to be addicting. I just don't know how to approach this issue. I will be turning the wifi off at night, but how do you deal with the sneaking, the second phone and the apps? It indicates to me that he may be addicted to these apps and his iPhone. His phone.

Rachel Denning (21:12.174)
I'm curious if you have ever encountered this before. It's very concerning to us. I value your input. Fantastic. Excellent question. Thanks for asking. Yes. Very common. Comes up a lot. And again, the nature of this question, it's asking for very specific things, which we'll get into. But the specifics here, the tactics, the strategies only work if we've built things on this foundation. Otherwise,

the strategies can actually backfire. So let me, oh, you got something. And I want to add that I would say that the strategies and tactics you might use would vary also depending on the age of the child, which it doesn't say here. I'm assuming it's a teenager, but I would say what you would do for a teenager, well, even depending on the age, an 18 -year -old versus a 13 -year -old would be very different. And definitely if this kid is 10 or 11, that's a whole nother approach. Yep.

and the relationship with that child, the personality of that child, the life experience and background of that child. The tendencies or proclivities of that child. You know, she says in here, he may be addicted to these. Well, yeah, they are made to be addicting. And any of us could potentially be addicted to the apps and phones. I mean, they are designed to be that way. But at a certain age, just to be what I just want to say, though, being addicted.

isn't necessarily the issue as much as how you approach that. It's like saying, you know, my kids are addicted to cookies. Well, yeah, if you put a plate of cookies out there, the cookies are going to get eaten. And if you're bothered that the kids are eating cookies and you're like, I told them not to eat it and I yelled at them and they got in trouble and then I set out a plate of cookies and they went for them again. It's like, okay, there's a bigger problem.

So there's a different approach you have to take knowing that there are certain proclivities for certain foods or activities or apps or whatever, which we're going to get into all that. I know you've got something you want to share. I want to back up to a fundamental basis. I'd love to ask this question. What is the underlying cause of the underlying problem?

Rachel Denning (23:33.966)
And at that level, see this is where the strategies fail of like, whoa, we have them handing their phones. That's a strategy. That's a strategy. And that actually could be a really good strategy, but it didn't work because the underlying problem and the underlying cause of the problem says, well, I'll just figure a way around that strategy. So we're going to turn off the Wi -Fi. Well, there's ways around that too. All you got to do is get a cell signal.

And what we told you not to have those apps, they are forbidden and they have them anyways. And so it's not, it's, that's like symptom management and trying to force a behavior when there's no root desire or cause, no inner compass for the behavior itself. Right. And so they have to understand that. And like, this is critical. You have to be constantly teaching your children why.

Why do we do those things? You're like, well, I did tell them. I'm like, yeah, they don't get it. To know and not to do is really not to know. And so it has to be taught at a level where they go, oh, yeah, I don't want that in my life. And I think the core issue right here that I just want to drive home so emphatically is I think that the best approach to parenting always will be asking the child, who do you want to be?

Who do you want to be? What kind of person do you want to become? Who do you want to be? What kind of life do you want? What kind of man do you want to be? What kind of woman do you want to be? Who do you want to be? And that question is always on them and can only be on them. I can't force who I want my kids to be on them. They have to choose that. And what's beautiful is like what you're doing is giving them their own power or asking them to pick it up and use it and say, you know, this is on you. Well, and tied in with this idea is,

like you were talking about, finding the underlying cause of the problem is the motivation. If they're sneaking a phone or sneaking apps like TikTok, you need to ask why, like really get down to why. Why are they doing those things? And it could be, it's likely because it's fulfilling some sort of other need. Maybe they're lonely, maybe they're feeling left out, maybe they're bored to death. Maybe they're, I mean, it could be a hundred different things, but.

Rachel Denning (26:02.317)
Until you find out the real reason that it's happening, you're never actually going to solve the problem. Exactly. Because if you're simply trying to control behavior, you will not do this thing. You will do that thing. I'm going to shut down the Wi - And I'm not saying that none of this is helpful. It is. We've done it before where we shut down the Wi -Fi at night. We still have screen time passcodes for our younger kids, specifically, 11 and younger. So it's OK to control things in that way, especially as -

they're younger and they're developing self -control. But ultimately, if you simply control behavior, especially once they're 15, 16, 17, 18, if you're just controlling behavior for them, they're not learning to control themselves. Exactly. So if he's sneaking the apps, well, that's because he hasn't learned to control himself or he doesn't see or understand why this would be a problem. And maybe it's not.

Maybe that's another thing. Maybe it's not a problem. Maybe you're making a bigger issue out of something that may not be that big of an issue. And so, and again, but the tactics and strategies will only work if those things you're saying have been built in place, right? So for example, we want our children to have a moral compass. It's their own guiding decision maker, right? But that only works, a moral compass only works if they actually have...

a vision of who they want to be. If they could care less who they want to be, they're like, I don't care. If you've never talked to your kids about this, you haven't exposed them to great human beings, they haven't seen the best movies and the best books and the best literature, you haven't been constantly talking about modeling for them and exploring the world, looking for great human beings. If you've never touched on that, and they're like, I don't know, it'd be kind of cool to be a professional video gamer on YouTube. Those guys are awesome.

And I have to add this because I think this is key. A lot of parents are like, yeah, I've done that. But they never give their kids the opportunity to practice making their own decisions. And we've literally seen teenagers who when asked a question, they don't know how to answer it. What kind of music do you like? What kind of movies? What do you like to do? And they don't know how to answer that because their parents have always dictated to them what they listen to, what they watch, what they do.

Rachel Denning (28:23.661)
And it's because parents are afraid. They're like, oh, I don't want to expose my kids to things. But if your kids, especially when they're teenagers, aren't allowed to practice what they're watching, what they're listening to, what they're downloading, what they're getting on, they're not developing their own conscience. They're not developing their own moral compass. It's underdeveloped. Yeah. You can only develop that by actually making choices. Yeah.

And you can only make choices when you're given the opportunity to make a poor choice. If you never have the opportunity to make a poor choice, you never actually get to choose a good choice because someone else is choosing for you. And that's not developing your moral compass muscles. It's like me doing push -ups for the kids. I got this. This is how you do it. I'll just keep doing the push -ups. I get all the benefit. I'll go to growth. I'm like, kids, this is exactly how you do it.

So when you're ready, watch me do the push -ups. Watch me do them, watch me do them. And I'm doing them, I'm like, no, no, no, you don't do it. I got this, I got this. And so I keep getting all the benefits, but that's ultimately what's it. I get the benefits. And so if they're my rules, it's not the kids' rules. And as soon as you are gone, as soon as they're at their friend's house, as soon as they move out, as soon as you go on vacation, as soon as you are gone, they're going to go back to their default rules. And if they haven't established a really highly developed moral compass and some standards, then.

They're going to, well, it's the quote from Archeilicus. We don't rise to the level of expectations, we fall to the level of training. Well, you're like, well, I've trained them. No, you've implemented your laws, your rules, your standards, and as soon as you're not around, they go back to their standards. Which they have not developed because they haven't given the chance to develop them. Yeah, so in many ways, yeah, you've told them, maybe you've taken them to church and they've heard the church sermon and the preacher or whatever, and they've been through all the things so many times, but...

Until it becomes their truth. Haven't you noticed how many youth hear those things incessantly and as soon as they have the opportunity, jump off the cliff? Exactly. It's because it's not theirs. It's not theirs. So in a situation like this, one of the reasons that he's sneaking the phone and the apps is because it hasn't been his decision to not do those things. He hasn't decided. He has no belief, reason, understanding.

Rachel Denning (30:45.229)
why TikTok or Snapchat might be a bad thing. Now, the other hand is... Can you remember what you're gonna say? Because I gotta throw this in here. Sorry. Some kids are pretty astute and they know how to tell you what you want them to say. So you're like, no, no, no. I ask him and he gives me an answer. And they learn this relationship with you. It's like dynamic. Son. Dynamic. It's the dynamic, right? So I say, son, what do you do about that? And he's like, no, we shouldn't do those. I'm like, good job, boy.

and I think, oh, pat him on the back, he did it. He's just been conditioned by me. To parrot? To parrot, to know what I want, he's going to say what I think, what he thinks I want him to say, and then I walk away thinking, oh, he's got this. But unless he chooses that on his own, he doesn't really have it. Exactly. To know and not to do is to really not to know. So that's one side of it. The other side, and I'm just going to throw this out there just because it's worth considering.

Our kids have Snapchat and TikTok. They have Instagram. We know that they have, now I wouldn't say all of them. We have one son that doesn't have Instagram, does not have Snapchat, does not have TikTok. All of that was his own choice. That was his own choice. I think influenced by someone he likes as well. But again, choice to not do that. But other kids do have it. We do know. I don't know if Aliyah does or something like that. Okay, the older ones.

We have a strategy here for all of this, but ultimately when they're getting in their higher teens, we start to allow them more and more freedom of choice. With tons of warning and constant. Well, I was going to get into the accountability piece there. But the teaching too, like they, we've talked about this for years. It isn't, because here's the other piece. I don't want some of you to be like, oh, my kids need more freedom. I'm going to let them choose. But you haven't given them the guidance, the tools. It's the foundation. They're going to fail. Right.

We have the foundational piece in before we just like, yeah, get whatever apps you want, do whatever you want. But what I'm trying to say is going back to this idea, we know for one of our sons, he has been approached with inappropriate things on these apps. But one, he has the moral compass in place that he's like, no, I'm not going to do that. Blocks a person. Well, let's be specific. So a girl he did not know, a teenage girl he did not know approached him.

Rachel Denning (33:09.581)
and offered to send naked pictures to him. He was on Instagram actually, not Snapchat. Which is very very common now. Like this whole sending naked pictures all around is like massively common among youth. And so it happened. Yeah, and so he immediately deleted the message, blocked her, and then we were out. It's happened a couple times. The first time we were in town, he told us about the second time we were out of town, he called me on the phone. He's like, Mom, I just want you to know this happened. I just want to be open with you.

This is, you know, this was the situation. So what I'm trying to share here. And how you react to that as parents. Okay, that's one piece of it. Huge. How you react because you could freak out and be like, see, I told you this is terrible. Blah, blah, blah. Delete the app. You can't use it anymore. Get all over him and he's like, what? I did the right thing. Exactly. I did the right thing. So you have to respond with like, way to go. Like, good job. You did the right thing. I'm so proud of you.

That was great. And you don't want to delete that. That was a good learning experience. He was able to practice making the right choice. And you reinforced that that was the right choice. And so now, instead of avoiding bad things happening in the world, you've strengthened his integrity, his virtue for him to be able to make good choices in the face of bad things in the world. Now, you might say, hey, it's not

that happened or if it's happening are you getting real value from this? Is this an app you want to keep? And some of your children may say, you know what? No. And that could even be prevented. Like this, I would walk through some of these apps that are pretty questionable and very often being used for just trash, garbage. And talk to them and it's like, this is the general use of it. What benefit, what value are you going to get out of it? And let them honestly answer it.

And don't make them parrot what you would say. Let them think through it. And a lot of them, they'll make the right decision if they understand it. They're like, you know what? Yeah, I'm tempted because it's really social and all my friends are on there, lots of people on there, so many funny things to watch. And I'm like, okay, well who do you want to be? Is that helping you become that person? And they'll be honest. They'll be like, you know, it's fun, it's silly, it's entertainment, but.

Rachel Denning (35:36.941)
honestly it's not helping me reach my dreams so no you're right that would be a waste of time and so they they choose it on their own but if I'm like son that's bad delete it never get on there he's gonna naturally be like cool I think I want to get on there right I'm gonna sneak around dad yeah so ultimately like yes they need to make the decision on their own it needs to be their choice not to do it now I do want to say on the other side sometimes some of the reasons you were mentioning aren't necessarily bad.

Maybe they're using it just to stay connected with their friends. Because I know in the case of some of our kids, we have a very unique lifestyle. Our friends are all over the globe. And so sometimes they're using those apps just to connect with certain friends. And that's the reason they're doing it. So again, getting down to that underlying cause, like why are they on there? If you ask them, if you have this relationship of trust and you're like, why are you getting on Snapchat? And they're like, oh, well.

naked pictures. Okay, that's obviously a concern. That's a very different thing than, hey, my best friend who lives out of state is on it and that's how we stay connected. So the underlying reason does matter. And it's worth again, diving into the complexity of, of parenting. You have to get into the complexity of what it means to be a human being and all the needs we have. Right. And so if some of those needs aren't being met, if

Like often one of the needs is that being met is your kids don't have this great story they're living. They're not being the hero of their own journey. They're not living some great adventure that's fulfilling and satisfying and meaningful. They just have this lame existence. Well, no wonder they're getting on there. They're actually trying to escape reality because reality sucks. And, and I'm going to be totally honest. That's on you, man. As a parent, that's on you.

If your life is so lame your kids want to escape it or they're just constantly seeking this hit. A dopamine hit. They're seeking chemical hits. I mean they're seeking drugs. That's what's happening. It's really what's happening. Physiologically. They're seeking drugs through their own brain pharmacy because they'll get on at night and they're like, ooh, this is fun because it's novelty. It's kind of adventure. It's sneaky. Like he's having this little mini adventure. I got this old broken phone and I could sneak in here and no one knows it. I could get on and...

Rachel Denning (38:02.445)
the forbidden things and I can check this out and I'm like, oh, this is awesome. It is an adventure. You're making it sound exciting. I know. So that's what that has, especially for young men. That's what he's doing. He's having this adventure. Like my goal is to make my kid's life so amazing. They're like, that's so stupid.

Why would I play video games when my own life is so awesome? Yeah, along with allowing them to decide and make choices with guidance. Whenever we say that, sometimes I think parents believe, do whatever you want, just go ahead. No, that's not what we're saying. You should provide guidance and direction, but ultimately the choice must be theirs. And sometimes they will choose to do things maybe you don't like. Maybe they would choose to download Snapchat and you don't want them to have that.

Ultimately, you have to allow that because once they move out, they're going to do that anyways. And it's better for them to practice making mistakes, messing up, all of this while they're under your roof and your protection with the right relationship of trust than it is to wait until... Because I've heard parents say that, well, my house, my rules, when they move out, they can do whatever they want. And they will. That's what you really want them to do? Exactly. Honestly? Like that's a recipe for disaster. Yeah.

Why would you want that? Why would you force and control them so much that you know when they leave it's going to be like this explosion of errant behavior? That's a recipe for disaster. You don't really want the well -being of your child in that case because that's not going to work out that way. And we turn to...

Practices like that, my way or the highway, I think because of an underlying fear and incompetence as a parent. Like I don't know how to really reach and influence and I can teach my kid so I'm gonna resort to force. Yeah, I wouldn't know what to do if my son was exposed to pornography so I'm just gonna make sure it never happens. And guess what? It does.

Rachel Denning (40:13.197)
especially nowadays, it's unavoidable. I don't know what... And it's almost like the more you try to fight it and force it, you might get lucky sometimes, some of your kids don't, but so often it backfires big time. I've seen this so many times. And so, and we're not, don't misunderstand us, we are not saying to throw off the rules and the strategies. We're saying they must be built on a foundation of...

development of the moral compass of the understanding the child understands that every choice is Making them who they're going to become like it's on you

child, like you make those decisions, this is going to affect your life. So you need to know what kind of life you want to live and who you want to be as a person and then make those decisions. And so if, and again, they're not going to make always the best decisions because they're trying to figure it out. So have a son, you know, we get really clear about that and that takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of effort. You telling them doesn't mean they understand it. Yeah.

That doesn't mean they get it. So you're going to work on that all the time, but if I have a son or daughter comes back and says, yeah, dad, I still want to have some app and I think it's garbage, but they want to try it, then I'm going to say, well.

So we know, I'm gonna ask them like what kind of bad things, what's the potential danger there of having that? We're gonna talk through it and they're like, yeah, I've heard that there's a lot of naked pictures, but I'm not gonna do that. Okay, cool, would you be okay if we have total transparency with this app? Like I get a look at it anytime. You show me what's happening, we talk about it. And maybe you set up guys like that. Like okay, if you're gonna choose it, then I wanna be able to see everything that happens to make sure there's transparency here. And it's not gonna be one -sided on this point.

Rachel Denning (41:55.567)
I want to really emphasize this.

We don't go to them and say, I don't trust you, so there needs to be transparency. We go to them and say, hey, did you guys know that mom and I have total transparency? She can access any of my stuff and I can access her stuff. And it's not that I don't trust her. It's that we realize there's a lot of temptation. There's a lot of garbage. And if we're going to choose to use devices or tools or instruments, right, we're going to have this transparency to help each other be our best selves. And because to prove that we have nothing to hide. Exactly. Yeah. So what?

Okay, I'm glad you said that because if a child wants to hide something there's a we circle back to where I started. What's the underlying cause of the underlying problem? If they want to hide something, why would they want to hide it? If they're lying to you, who's made them afraid to tell the truth? Like what is the motive of a child that wants to keep something from a parent?

There's a lot there. Well, there's a ton there. A lot of crackle there. But what I want to talk about is this idea then of the accountability piece, right? Because first of all, you're having that conversation. You're saying, OK, great. You're going to have this app. Let's talk about it. What could you potentially do if x, y, and z happens? Talking through those ideas, right? And then allowing them to practice, knowing that they are going to make mistakes.

And we have had this happen with our kids where we're like, okay, go ahead. You can try this game. You can try this app. You can do this thing. And then they'll spend the whole day on it, right? Wasting their entire day. Okay, great. That's an opportunity for learning. And you circle back with having a conversation. Okay, you spent the entire day playing this game or doing this thing. How do you feel about that? Don't assume that they will process it on their own. Right. You have to very tactfully process it with them.

Rachel Denning (43:53.263)
How do you feel about that? And if they're honest with you, you've built this relationship, we've been talking about this whole podcast, if you've built that relationship, they'll be like, ugh, it was fun.

Rachel Denning (44:06.445)
because I wasted all that time when I could have been doing something more productive. Yeah, good reminder. Yeah. And just, I mean, strategy logistics on doing this, one way is just tracking.

using this, I know on an iPhone or an iPad, they have the screen time. Which tracks how much time is spent on the device and how much time is spent on each app. And there was a time period when we were going through this training of our own kids where every week everyone read out the screen time on their device. Even including mom and dad, you know, this is how much time I spent this week on my device, this is how many hours per day, this is my most used apps. And you're just providing this accountability because have fun.

Giving access to these things doesn't mean all you want with no accountability to anyone. That's not what it means. We're saying this can be an opportunity for them to practice being accountable and responsible. So I think fundamentally on this, I would spend a lot of time talking with each child, like why is it they want that?

What's the purpose of that thing? What's your purpose with that thing? Is this helping you become who you want to be? What choice do you want to make about that? Exactly. And leaving it open like you don't have anything to hide from me. Like.

Okay, well, and again, you gotta get to the bottom of this. And if you don't know, if you don't understand what's happening or why, or why they just feel this need or draw to it, like you better figure that stuff out. Right, because that's more important than the fact that it's actually happening. Exactly. The fact that they're downloading the apps is less important than why they're downloading the apps. It's a symptom of a problem. Exactly. And you think it is the problem. It's not. It's not the problem, it's the symptom of the problem. Right. So that's so important. And the same with, you know, using the device after hours.

Rachel Denning (46:04.623)
or sneaking one. Ultimately, if they're not choosing that...

Yeah, I need to turn this in or I need to turn this off because that's important for my brain development and my sleep and all these other things. They need to be understanding the underlying reasons for why you're doing that so that that's something they choose on their own because we go back to the same issue. If they don't, if they don't practice doing that, if they don't practice actually turning off their own device at night, as soon as they move out,

they're not going to turn it off. They're not going to have practiced doing that thing. And so it's going to be very difficult for them to do when they're not being monitored by mom. And they will be like 95 to 99 % of young adults are out there like horrible sleep habits, horrible device use habits. And it's tanking their lives and their results and their health. And they're struggling.

The majority of, and then it's a recipe, isn't like some new phenomenon. It's a recipe that's happening and we don't want our kids falling into that same recipe that just doesn't work. On that, I'll go ahead. Now that being said, again, it's not anything goes is okay. Like there should be a conversation about that. There should be a follow up. What time did you go to bed? What time did you turn off your device? You know, not to get after them and shake your finger, but to have a conversation. Okay. How did you feel about that? Do you think that was good? Should you turn it off earlier? How did you sleep?

Do you need to revisit your original decision? Right. And so when we do it, if they say, yeah, I want to go ahead and do that, and they have a clear reason, they can easily prove it to themselves and to us that they have a legitimate reason for doing it. Then we got to make sure they clearly understand the consequences, what their behaviors will be, what they commit to. Again, you're not just giving them free rein. Like, oh, okay, you got this. Like, okay, let's walk through this. We're training you how to make decisions. We're training you how to think. So if you're going to go ahead and make a decision,

Rachel Denning (48:01.231)
and do this and this is what I would do myself so I expect my children to do the same of like okay what are the boundaries I'm gonna set? What are the commitments I'm gonna make? And if I fail to keep my commitments what's the consequence? And so then we might say okay you can use it if you violate it you know this way you don't keep the commitment you're making to yourself right now then what's the consequence?

And then they're like, okay, yeah, I gotta start turning. If I don't turn it off at a good hour, or I'm on something I shouldn't be on, I'm gonna start giving it back to you. And they come up with a consequence. They choose it. They choose their commitment and they choose their consequence. And then you're like, hey, yeah, Mary, you asked me, I'm gonna help you with that because you made some poor choices. We'll visit this again later. And so it's this progressive growth, not good luck with that kid. Right, progressive and...

practiced by them instead of enforced by you. So do we turn in all devices? Do we turn off the Wi -Fi? Do we at our house or? Well, I'm just saying in practice. No, we don't right now. Have we before? Yes, but it wasn't as a punishment. It wasn't as prevention. It wasn't to control. We taught our children, and we still do, there needs to be time away from screens.

There has to be.

And if there's too much screen time for whatever, even for good reasons, you start losing touch of the outside world and life and your whole life becomes virtual. And as we're going into the future with a lot of AR coming out, and the metaverse, that's going to be more and more of a problem. And so it's going to be more insistent that we all decide as a family, like, Hey, what do you guys say we pick some hours when there's no, no screens and maybe

Rachel Denning (49:51.951)
that's we flip off the Wi -Fi or it might even be a day every week. Might just say hey let's what do you say on Saturdays with with a few exceptions what do you say on Saturdays we kick that off and we just live without screens and some are like we can't live without screens it's impossible. Again there's principles here so if there's an underlying principle behind it all.

Some of you you might even want to turn your off your Wi -Fi at night because of what it's doing to your brain with the waves in the house That's a whole different time your own benefit. Oh, yeah for your own benefit if you're on there, okay Here's here's what I suspect is happening in a lot of homes Parents are like get off those screens get off those devices Don't do that and then you crawl into bed and scroll and scroll and scroll or watch some Netflix and scroll some more and your

setting a really bad example of how to use technology. In a lot of ways, I don't ask my kids to do things that I'm not willing to do as well. Now, that being said...

there is a difference in age. I tell my 11 year old, he's like, you're on the screen a lot. And I'm like, yeah, I'm working. This is what I'm doing. Let me show you what I do. That doesn't mean you should be it on as much as I am because you're a child and your job is to learn and to play and to do these other things. So there are definitely clear differences, but.

Kids are smart, teens are smart. If they can't see that there is a real difference there, not just one you made up because I'm the adult and I said so, they're not gonna fall for it. So you're on Facebook consuming, well they wanna be on TikTok or Snapchat consuming, what's the difference? Exactly. And so yeah, again, you're modeling, right? Right. You're leading out, ooh that's good, I love this stuff. So who do you wanna be? Who do you want your kids to be? What's the fun?

Rachel Denning (51:45.135)
underlying problem and how can you help them cultivate that moral compass so as soon as possible and this is all dependent on maturity as soon as possible they are making their own choices on as many things as possible. Exactly.

can you trust, so our 16 year old just kind of moved out because he went to get a long term job because he's saving up money to go climb Kilimanjaro with me.

It's a farm job. Yeah, it's a farm. So he's working hard and the kid has a great attitude and great work ethic. I trust him completely and I'm like, go ahead, go. I know you'll be an asset to whoever you interact with. And we don't, he has his own device, but we're not worried that he's going to be sneaking apps or downloading, because he's allowed to do whatever he would do there here. So, okay, this is cool. So my 16 year old just moved out.

and he has total freedom to do all that stuff. He doesn't have to sneak and he never really has had to sneak because we don't operate like that. So he's on his own for a few months, essentially. And with this device, we don't have to worry about it. Yeah. So it's going to be the same. It'll be even easier than when he's 18 or 19 and is like, Hey, I'm out. I'll see the world. Like you got it, bro.

Let's go, because we've trained and prepared. And he's been practicing making decisions about device usage and time usage since he was young. So yeah, that's ideally what you want. You want them to be making these decisions on their own because they understand the principles and they know who they want to be. That's the answer to the problem, not how do I control them and keep them from doing the things I don't want them to do. Exactly. So, dear listener,

Rachel Denning (53:38.093)
Can you trust your, let's say, teens, later teens, could you trust them right now on their own? And if the answer is I don't know or no, you've got your work cut out for you. That's the underlying problem. That's the target. So be strategic. When I just start thinking, it's like, oh, I'm not sure I would. Or if you're like, no, I can't even trust them right now and I got my thumb on them. That's part of the problem. And so your goal then, your objective is,

what do I need to do to get this child, get myself and this child into this space where I can trust them completely and do whatever you have to do to get them there. I guess I'm holding that up as a vision, as a target, as an objective. Exactly. And that starts by allowing them to practice making their own decisions. We feel like that's not how it goes. You keep saying that and every time you say that, and I totally agree with you, but every time you say that I'm like, oh babe, but that only works if you've done all the other stuff.

If you keep hearing, Rachel is emphatic about this, you must let your kids practice making decisions. And I'm like, yes, but that only works if you have the relationship and if you've taught them and they have a moral compass and you've showed them how to practice and you've given them all the boundaries and you've helped them think through possible dangers and situations. Like if you've done all this work, then that works. But if you haven't done the work and you're like, hey, let your kids practice and parents are like,

Alright kids, time to practice making decisions and... They all fell apart! Your dennings are full of it! But on the other side, what you just laid out there, if everyone waits for that, they'll never let their kids practice making decisions. Yep. And then the disaster will happen when they move out. I don't have any... I don't have all of that in place that Greg said. I don't have everything, all the pieces there, so I can't let them practice. So yes, you're right.

But at the same time, if you allow them to start practicing now, they're going to mess up. That's OK, because that's part of the process. Say you let them go pick the music they want. And so they pick some rap song with explicit lyrics. OK.

Rachel Denning (55:48.845)
now you have something to work with, a very specific thing. You have a conversation that you can have and you can say to your kid, hey, these are the lyrics. Let's read them out loud for family discussion, you know? See how that goes. You know what I'm saying? You actually have something to work with and now your kid, instead of trying to sneak or trying to rebel, they're going to be thoughtful and be like, hmm.

What do these lyrics say and why do I like them and why would I listen to this and is this really who I want to be? And if they dismiss the lyrics, so I don't even listen to the lyrics. I'm just listening to music. You got to teach them what happens neurologically. Find a quote or a book or... When you just hear it again and again and again and again and again, it gets implanted in your subconscious and becomes literally becomes a neural pathway inside of your brain. So then you get to geek out on that. You want this crap in your head? You get to geek out on that and go to your research and find all the stuff that talks about

this kind of neuro associative conditioning. Now it's getting interesting. Now this is getting exciting and your kids are like, wow, okay, this is cool. I didn't know about all of this cool stuff. Then you pull up a video of a neuro pathway actually happening. We have a video of it now. You get this neuro pathway and boom, and you show them that and you're like, okay, that's that song. And the more you reheat it, the more it gets wrapped and becomes this pathway and gets strengthened. You're like, okay, now that song, you keep listening to it and bam, again and again.

Again, now you have this neural highway in your head of this trash. Do you want that bouncing around your head? Because then you talk about the connection between thoughts and behavior and actions and outcomes in your life. You can get into all kinds of topics just by letting your kid choose to listen to their own music. So you have to start somewhere. You have to practice and let them. And I guess I think this gets scary because...

Apparently, like, what if they start choosing?

Rachel Denning (57:46.029)
this bad path and start heading down that. And you as a parent have to have the skills and the competence and the willingness and the willingness to intervene. Yep. Intervention. Effectively. You've got to do it effectively because if you do it wrong, it'll backfire. Yes. And so you have to do it effectively and you might be like, I don't have that. Like, well, that's not an option. Not having it is not an option. Parent. This is where I grab.

the front of your shirt and like that's not an option you have kids you have to save your kid figure it out figure out how to do that effectively because here's the thing

And we've heard this before again, especially with the music. It's a great example because parents are like, well, then my kid just listens to all this dark music and then it just makes them more depressed and this and that. Yeah, you're right. Because music is powerful and it will have that effect. But if your child continues to listen to that kind of music, there's a deeper underlying problem. The music is no longer the problem. The music now becomes the symptom of something else that's going on. So now you go deeper and you deal with that issue. What is causing that? Maybe it's the

their thinking, their thought patterns. And maybe, like because we've heard this before in our research, maybe the thought patterns are being caused by the food they're eating. Or the friends they have. Or the friends that they have. The associations they're keeping or what they're consuming online. You're like, oh there's the problem. Your input sucks. It's so dark and is leading to this dark expression. Yes. I guess in this case though I want to emphasize the food part because we think, well yeah obviously the friends or the music, the music is contributing.

to the dark thoughts, but just because the research we did, or not we did, we heard from Dr. Amon when he talked about how one man was having suicidal thoughts because of corn. Like he had this adverse reaction to corn that caused him to have dark suicidal thoughts. And you would think, well, that wouldn't be related, how is that a thing? But when you dig deeper and you're like, wow, maybe.

Rachel Denning (59:47.853)
It's my kids diet that is causing the problem, that causes them to listen to dark music, that causes, you know, it's like the spiral that's going out of control. But if you never dig deeper and you just focus on the music and you're like, I'm gonna control their music because it's dark, you're not actually solving the underlying problem.

maybe think of a couple of instances I want to share.

One was a chronic lack of sleep. This individual that I work with was not sleeping well and that will quickly lead to some really intense psychological trouble. And so it might be coming out too, like maybe you or your youth is not sleeping well. And they might be sleeping through the night, but not sleeping well. In fact, I had another client just went into the test and found out he's got sleep apnea. He's like, he was in bed seven or eight hours every night, but waking up,

Exhausted what is off? I'm like you see boys. I think so he went and has a test done He's like he was never getting into deep sleep. They're hit room. Yeah, so every night he's just tossing and turning never getting the deep recovery and then another instance where there was a problem and This gentleman, you know, I'm gonna try some CBD to Help him sleep help me sleep settle down. Just just kind of chillax things, right?

Soon as he took it, he had...

Rachel Denning (01:01:16.109)
some ideation about suicide and violent violent things. And so again, what you're saying is important. I'm emphasizing this because for one guy it was corn, for another people it's, I've talked to people that have artificial flavorings or color. Yeah, like red number 40. Food coloring, whatever. Like any of this artificial stuff can trigger something. So you might be like, man, I have a kid with serious behavioral problems or this problem. They've always been like that. Well, look at their food very specifically. Well.

Look deeper is what I want to say because again if we zoom out again to this question, well my kid's sneaking the phones and the apps, what do I do about it? We want to just solve the problem. We want to do symptom management. Stop them sneaking the apps, not stop them sneaking the phone. But...

That's not the right approach because ultimately you want to dig deeper. What's causing that? And then what's causing that? And what's causing that? And if you get down to the underlying causes and you build your foundation from there, then you don't have to worry about these things up at the top, the apps and the phones and the sneaking, because they don't happen or they're dealt with in a way that's appropriate because you have that foundation in place because you are able to solve the real underlying issue.

By digging deep. So we have to look at these as opportunities to dig deeper. What is causing this behavior? Which requires us to have a broader understanding. Yes, of lots of things. Psychology, physiology. I could go on. What does it mean to be a parent? To be a great student of many things. Absolutely. You have to be. There's no way around it. Yeah. So.

That's a good segue into this next problem. Well, I was going to ask if we're going to answer this question now. Go for it. Okay. Yeah, because it's a good idea. Or do it next time, because we have been going on a long time, but we can keep going. Let's just hit it. Let's hit it. And so it's again, you step back and say, what's the underlying cause of the issue? And this one, I think, is readily apparent to men.

Rachel Denning (01:03:19.757)
but not always readily apparent to mothers. Yes, okay. So this one, Greg was actually hesitant to discuss, but we've decided we're gonna go ahead and do it, because it's related to sex drive in teenage boys. Now, we've talked a lot about sex in marriage.

And so we received a question saying, okay, as a parent, how do you guide them, specifically teenage boys, so they can handle their urges in a healthy manner? How do you educate them so they don't fall prey to the use of pornography? What are the best ways to support them instead of shaming them for having these normal desires? Our society is so full of trashy messages about sex, masturbation, pornography, they honestly worry about the future of these young men. Yes, with good reason. With good reason, absolutely. And if there's not, if this is not

being taught and understood and guided, mentored through this, it'll be a disaster. And I've been in enough locker rooms and events with men.

in places where they'd let down their guard and they talk about their approaches, it's a problem. It's a very, very prevalent problem and do not for a second in your...

This is where the rant's coming. In your stinking little bubble where you think you're sheltered by your little church group or your little corner of the world where evil never happens, don't you dare for a second think this isn't happening all around you because it is. Even in the best groups, they're finding 75 % of boys and men are regularly looking at porn. So you're out of your stinking mind.

Rachel Denning (01:05:10.607)
naivety if you think this isn't happening. It's a problem and so you know that won't happen in my world because our little bubbles safe like no it's not so this has to be addressed it has to be understood and it has to be addressed and that that's enough for multiple podcasts right there to understand it and address it but let's let's touch on it here if we need if we need to go farther we can but okay sex drive is

is real and it's powerful. Maybe I say this for the benefit of moms. It's intense and it starts as early as 11 or 12.

Depending on the child. Depending on the boy. They start having erections. They start noticing girls. All of a sudden, you know, they were like interested in dinosaurs and then they're like interested in babes. And like it just, it just switches and it becomes intense. Now the intensity level is different for each person, but many men like it's intense. It's really intense. And it's built into you. It's evolutionary. It's instinctive.

It's not that your son's a pervert. Right. That's what I was actually gonna say. Like it's automatic. To me, I think the best comparison I think of is hunger. Yeah. It's not like you control your hunger. You're not, it's not like you are a bad person if you're hungry. Like you just get hungry. So it's an automatic...

function of the body that just operates, it just is. So I love how she - We gotta emphasize this, this is not our opinion, this is like science. This is scientific fact. Like a male body, a healthy male body wants sex like it wants food. Yeah. Like it doesn't make bad or wrong. And in fact, the sex drive is not bad or wrong. It's a wonderful, beautiful thing that we talked about. Well, that's what I was saying. I love how she mentions this. Like how do you -

Rachel Denning (01:07:04.429)
support them instead of shaming them for having these normal desires. They are normal desires. It's totally normal. Now, it can be acted out in abnormal ways, unhealthy ways, just like eating can be acted out in abnormal or unhealthy ways. You can eat in a way that's bad for you and that's unhealthy and like...

hurts you, hurts your relationships, all of that. So same thing with sex. Same thing with these urges. So... Boundaries are critical. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Having clear boundaries are important. Not just with sex, with everything, with food. You need to have this idea, this standard of what you want, what you're working for, and who you want to be.

So ultimately I think it comes down to that. Now, when you're trying to teach teenagers about sex, I think that's the basic foundation of how to do that. One, teaching that it's normal. Two, helping them get a vision of what they want, right? And we're not just talking - Again, coming back to who do you want to be? Yeah, and who you want to be. Not just like, oh, you want to have sex, but what do you actually want long term, right? What -

What kind of relationships do you want to have? What kind of, do you want to have a family? All those types of things and in order to do that, you need to make choices now that will help you reach those outcomes. Because the sex drive isn't just about having sex right when you want it, it's about...

Ultimately, biologically, it's about reproducing the species, right? Creating life. And I think it's also very much about connection. It's very much a key ingredient of connection between men and women. So ultimately, sex is about connecting, and you shouldn't just be connecting with anyone and anywhere, anytime. Because particularly that level of connection comes with a massive level of commitment, or at least it should. Absolutely. And you talk through that and help understand. So yes, in some ways,

Rachel Denning (01:09:10.159)
you're teaching you know this the law of chastity or or some moral code but get down to it like why what is it why have that why have that like why do you why should you care because some teenage boys are gonna want to have sex with every hot girl they see they're just be like well she's a babe she's a babe oh yeah and and you if you've never heard a locker room with teenage boys I hope you never have to be subjected to that but they are talking oh

about all the things, blah, blah, blah, whatever. No boundaries, no guidelines. So that's what's happening in this un -raned, unfiltered, uncontrolled teenage hormone explosion. And...

Don't you dare assume it's not happening in good kids either because it is it's just it's in them So then channel it put boundaries on it talk about help understand because it's gonna come with so much force And I know I think I think most of the men will understand this I don't know if many of the moms will it will come with so much force. It almost feels like it's controlling you I know it makes you sound like a victim and the natural man and your carnal and devilish and horrible, but it just comes as

so much force and if directed, it's actually a wonderful and beautiful thing. But if not directed, this kid's not gonna know what to do with it. And when it hits him with that much force, I promise you, and as he gets older, it comes stronger. And so you get a kid that's 17, 18, 19, early 20s, it's gonna hit with so much force, he has to have such strength in his moral compass or the force will overpower him. Yeah, and I think it's interesting talking about this because,

especially for teenagers, unless they do have this very strong vision of what it is that they want. And obviously we're kind of idealist here and we're speaking in idealistic ways. But if you paint this vision of this relationship that they could have with this true love that they adore and it adores them back and you're like, that's what you're working for.

Rachel Denning (01:11:23.181)
You're working to create that and you need to be the kind of person and make the kind of decisions that are going to help you get there. You don't want to just be with anyone at any time because ultimately, isn't this what you want? This beautiful relationship that's deep and intimate and connected. That I think evolutionary and an evolutionary level and I think a spiritual level.

That is what the sex drive is driving you towards. It's building to help you find and connect that person that you want to be with. Some amazing, amazing relationship. And I guess... Okay, here we go again. I know. But are you...

As parents, but okay, you go ahead. I got a couple things. I know. I just want to say, I feel like we can say that and we can speak in this idealistic way because we do have that. Yes. You and I have that relationship and we are modeling for our children that relationship every single day. So our kids - So they know what they're working for. Yep. They see it, they want it, they long for it. Absolutely. And they know it's possible. And that's where I was about to start ranting. Like, are you showing that to your kids? Or are they looking at you and like,

I'm not so sure I like marriage. I don't know if I want to get married. Hooking up is the better option. Yeah, I'm like, I think I'll go look at some pornography and masturbate because, like, what you guys got going doesn't look very appealing. No thanks. You see what I'm saying? And I'm being blunt. And if we want to get to the underlying cause of why is pornography an issue, why is masturbation an issue, it's like Jordan Peterson says about abortion. Like, the real issue isn't abortion. The reason...

Abortion is a problem is because relationships between men and women are off. Same thing with pornography. Same thing with masturbation. The reason that's a thing.

Rachel Denning (01:13:14.637)
is because relationships between men and women are off. So if our youth... Understanding yourself is off and understanding the drive and the dynamics, all of it, it's off. So if our youth could see constant examples of an amazing marriage that was something they wanted to have, guess what? Abortion's not gonna be as big a problem. Pornography's not gonna be as big a problem. And masturbation's not gonna be a problem because...

they know what they're working for. And I know this sounds idealistic and people are going to be like, ah, it's just not. No, but it's so true and so powerful. And when you see what's possible, then it's so easy to see how pornography and masturbation is just a cheap, pathetic substitute for the real thing. Absolutely. It is so pathetic and so low. But if you don't know what's possible, you don't know what you want, then it seems kind of nice. Like, hey, this is kind of nice. I see some hot girl, whatever. And then I can just masturbate. Ah.

It's just, it's so cheap and low, but you have to have the contrast and you have to have that desire and you have to have this idea. And then, then you need to get into the deep psychology of it all and the science behind it all that how viewing pornography regularly will literally warp your perspective of women and your potential future marriage. So,

looking at porn as a teen will literally undoes your relationships. There's tons of research on a site called Fight the New Drug. Tons of research on that. But you've got to understand, because you might look at it and be like, well, what's the big deal? Like, they're drawn, they look at pretty girls, whatever, it's no big deal. No, it's a big deal. Well, it's back to the neural. Yep.

Neurological processes and wiring in your head. Yeah, you're making neurological connections in your brain and you're reinforcing them with certain...

Rachel Denning (01:15:05.101)
ideas and then you get warped. It literally alters the way that you think and the way you view the world. That's ultimately why it becomes dangerous because it is warping how you view things and your potentiality for relationships. One simple example just so we can really get into the meat of this is if a kid watches these porn things then that is his perception of what sex is like. So then he gets married.

and his wife is not some weird porn star thing and he's like, what's this? And she's like, what the heck is that? What are you doing? And then right from the get go, they have problems because perceptions are so far gone. And you're disconnected from reality. Yeah.

Because life is not a porn movie. It's so messed. And then, yeah, oh, man, I could go on about this and rant about it. But it's a real problem. And so it needs to be addressed. Now, it's a very common problem. And don't misunderstand, I'm not throwing anybody under the bus here.

It's a big, big issue. But we're holding up an ideal. Yes, absolutely. We're not shaming. We help people understand and then take all that drive and that force and guide it in the right direction to the real thing. Because the real thing is always the best thing. Right. I agree 100%. The real thing is the best thing and very often.

why people are accepting the subsuits is because they don't know the real thing is possible. They honestly have never seen it. So even okay I'm gonna say this even in many marriages where good men are hardly have sex at all they're married men and they hardly ever have sex like what no.

Rachel Denning (01:16:51.149)
And so a lot of good married men turn to porn because this drive is still there, it doesn't go away. Men are visually driven and they have a sex drive. And they're shamed for it. And they're shamed for it. And I'm not excusing their behavior, I'm not throwing it in just for you, I'm just saying there's a driving force for it. There's contributing factors. There's contributing factors. And if a married man that doesn't make love to the woman he's married to, his wife,

almost as often as he would like. There's a problem. It's a conflict. And this is complicated. I know. And people are going to be like, Craig, that's just extreme. That's just too much. And for that we just have to say, please go listen to all the other podcasts where we've discussed this, married sex in detail, explaining why what you just proposed is not as crazy as it sounds.

But that's another thing. But ultimately back to this, yes, I guess we'll just be straightforward here. Our ideals are high. They are unique. We do teach abstinence and we do teach no masturbation. And we realize that that... And no porn. And no porn, exactly. We realize that that's not necessarily obtainable for all people or all situations. But in an ideal situation...

I don't see, the research I've done, I don't think that...

that's not an impossibility. And I do believe that that's not, it's not based on just religious values, because that's not, obviously there's a connection. But I think psychologically, that's a sound practice. And the reason why. And sociologically, I mean there's tons of research on this. Yes, the reason why is because, again, you're using a very natural, very normal drive, and you're directing it towards creating this ideal, which is a long -term relationship with someone. And if you can use

Rachel Denning (01:18:50.095)
use that, you're more likely to achieve that. Whereas if you waste that drive in masturbation or in casual sex, you're losing some of that energy that drives you towards this future ideal that you're trying to create. Yes. I can see this visually. You take something normal and natural and when you make poor choices, you're diverting it to something that is unnormal and unnatural. Or less ideal, if nothing else. Yeah, but it's because it's a cheap substitute and nowhere

like it is this drive to like just go around and cheap sex wherever without any consequences without any connection without any relationships and and we don't have this inherent sex drive that we're born with for masturbation. Right. You weren't born with that because every man was meant to masturbate. Right. Like that's not why the driving force is there. So it is abnormal and unnatural. Right. So I love what you're saying like use all that force all that drive energy to get what you want.

instead of some immediate gratification. You're robbing yourself. Now it's harder obviously. It's more challenging. It's more self -denial, self -control. But...

in the long run, I think that's the better path. I'm reading the Dhammapada right now and he talks about the two paths. You can choose immediate gratification and pleasure, which ultimately leads to suffering. Or you can choose the harder path, which includes self -control and denial. Sometimes it begins with suffering. Oh, absolutely. A different kind of suffering. But ultimately leads to, he says, nirvana or lasting happiness. I think it's exactly the same thing. Perfect, Rachel. So some self -denial.

some self -discipline, some you'll actually experience some suffering, some physical pain for not having this regular outlet and for disciplining and putting boundaries and borders and reigning in and controlling this drive and directing it at what you want. A little bit of suffering in the beginning. I one time went 23 years without sex. That's the hardest time of your life. I got married at 23 and we got married.

Rachel Denning (01:21:01.935)
But if you'll direct it towards what you want…

then it leads to what he calls this nirvana. It's like, yes, but if you don't, if you're like, no, I can't, no, I'm over here, but I'm abnormal and unnatural and you're just cheap substitutes even. You just keep going that way, then you're cheating yourself. Well, I'm even thinking of this now on like a metaphysical level when you're talking about it, because it is actually a real energy. It is energy. Sex drive is energy. And if you direct it towards what you want, which is this ideal relationship, because

and success because you want to win a woman. Like this is a natural nature. You're talking about hierarchies now. Yeah. So this drive of like, if I want a great woman, I have to earn her respect. I have to win her, right? So I've got to be successful. And there's this drive in that. So inherent in the sex drive is this desire to succeed so I can attract the woman. It's like those birds that make the nest, right? And the male makes the nest and whichever nest she likes best, she chooses and they're the partner for the year. So we're doing that, right? And the sex drive does that.

But if I'm just dumping it out here and there, wasting my energy and ambition on porn and masturbation and cheap substitutes, there goes this driving force. That was being used to help you create the ideal is now being wasted in other things. So it's metaphysically, physiologically, psychologically, biologically. It makes sense to us that you use this drive to help you.

Go towards achieving the ideal. Yep. Sound stuff right there. It's awesome. But it all comes back to building the foundations. Trust. Character, competence, understanding, moral compass. Like who do you want to be? And what will it take to be that person? Then it's easy.

Rachel Denning (01:23:05.901)
build out this plan and this vision and to become that person. Oh I love this stuff. Love it. You guys, thanks for listening. This is this is a long one and it's important and thanks. Thanks for being for caring. For caring enough to listen to this like you want to be great parents. You want to do a great job and I'm sure you are doing a great job. So...

Like ask questions and more resources. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast. You know, come over to extraordinaryfamilylife .com for more resources. Share this episode and take a screenshot of it and share it, share it on social media. Share it with friends or family or colleagues or the people you know that need to hear this stuff. Everyone who has kids needs to hear this stuff because...

Ultimately you guys what we're doing by raising kids is so complex It is very complex and so like you gotta be on your toes You gotta have skills like you have to be a ninja And that's what I was just thinking I wanted to say because I mean ultimately parenting is a skill

It's a skill that you can learn, but most parents don't try to do that. They just try to wing it or figure it out as they go. And if we just take a little more effort and attention like you guys are doing now by listening to this, we can improve our skills, which makes our job so much easier. And that's what we want. You get to a spot.

where you start to reap the rewards and we're there now because our older teens and you're starting to move out and doing things and you're like, oh yeah, this works. And it's, it makes parent, when you have the skillset and you're working on yourself and you're doing it well, it makes the job easier and it makes the outcome that much better and that much richer. And I, even with some of the reading I was doing this morning with my own morning routine, I talked, it was talking about,

Rachel Denning (01:25:07.405)
parenting and how ultimately parenting determines the state and condition and future of this world. I mean think about on a massive level. Yeah. Like poor parenting, very poor parenting will create monsters who become tyrants and terrorists and great parenting.

beautiful, loving, open, trusting, training parenting creates heroes. Yeah. Leaders. Who will save their own life and many people's lives. And they'll be heroes in a real, in the story of the world. Right. And people of strength. And we need a whole society of that. So what you're doing as a parent matters so much.

Never dismiss this. Don't take it lightly. Don't just see it as something you're just getting through. Can't wait till this is over. Like lean into it and be the very best parent you can be. Reach out for it.