#183 Seeing BEYOND Roe Vs. Wade, Gun Control, & Other 'Surface Tensions'

Rachel Denning (00:10.606)
Hey there, welcome to this episode. There is a lot of surface tension in the media today, social and mainstream, about topics such as Roe vs Wade, gun control and more. There's lots of polarity and opposition about intense topics. And it bothers me because it paints this picture that there are only two sides to any issue. And that's just not true. We, as individuals in society, have to look beyond the surface tension of topics to the underlying problems.

and underlying causes of those problems. There's so little we know. We as society, and especially we as in Greg and Rachel, but we do know that as the area of your knowledge increases, so too does the perimeter of your ignorance. To have more peace in society and to find more real lasting solutions, we have to learn to look past what we think we know to what we might not know that could be true. In this episode, we walk through the process,

of learning to look beyond the symptoms to the root causes of the diseases in society that plague us. We discuss the problems with a symptom management based focus on issues, not only political and societal issues, but familial ones as well. And we cover some potential solutions that are psychologically, scientifically, and religiously supported. Don't miss this potentially controversial episode.

Rachel Denning (01:42.478)
Hey, hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family podcast. Today, we are going to talk about seeing beyond the surface. But I want to first emphasize how little we know. We as in all of us and we as in Rachel and I. How little we know.

And you guys know, we've shared this quote before from Neil deGrasse Tyson. He says, as the area of our knowledge grows, so too does the perimeter or the circumference of our ignorance. And it's a fascinating journey of life. The more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. And the most brilliant people realize how ignorant they are. And the most ignorant people think that they're so brilliant. They're so brilliant. And so there is. There's so little we know. And I was reading this fascinating, deep spiritual book last night.

And the author just has this big global, huge view. And she made this brilliant point that Rachel and I have thought about and talked about before, that your reality is often the biggest determining factor of your reality. And I know that sounds a little confusing, but your current reality, your current...

belief system, the lens, the lens you're looking through your, your convictions are actually the limiting factors on what you're open to learning or discovering or understanding or experience and experiencing. And so in almost every facet of life, there's greater depth and knowledge and experience. And in some cases, greater bliss and joy and happiness and success. There's other answers, alternatives. Yes.

solutions way more like there there are possibilities so far beyond our realities and and I know that's true for me even as I say it to you and even as Rachel I've just been voraciously reading and studying across all genres and and across space and time and culture and tradition and religions and all this we just love exploring and reading and learning and expanding our reality.

Rachel Denning (04:01.838)
And we often realize that our reality was the limiting factor. And so we've got to push past this. But one of the things that's very, very prevalent and has always been this is OK, this is one of the topics actually that these patterns, these social patterns, they're just on repeat mode. They've happened again and again in history. But what's so funny is when it happens again, the people who do it think they're the first ones. We're the we're the enlightened ones. We're bringing this up because.

Everything else. Yeah, nobody saw this before all those old fashioned thinkers and you're like, you're hilarious. If you just read a little history, you'd realize that a few, um, what is it? Patterns ago, a few cycles ago, somebody else had the same idea as you and said, let's defend this point here. And they thought they were the enlightened ones. And, and it's just another pattern. It's just again and again and again, what's interesting about our time is that the mode of communication.

especially like the internet phones. Yeah. And it's just instantaneous across the globe. And there's so it adds hype and energy and drama and it comes quickly and it comes fiercely and it spreads rapidly where in an isolated community or civilization, it would spread, you know, through word of mouth over time. This was years ago. Now you, somebody posted online Twitter has the potential to be seen.

many millions or hundreds of millions of times in a brief moment. And so it spreads, but what we're noticing, and it comes up again and again and again, is there are several issues that the most people, and I'm not faulting them, they haven't been trained, they haven't been conditioned, they haven't spent time with mentors and great books to see beyond the surface. And so it's very tempting for all of us, very easy for all of us to see what's on the surface.

In a medical terminology, it's what we might refer to as symptom management. You go in with a symptom and it's easy to be distracted by only the symptom. The pain. Yeah. Like something, you've got this wound on your arm or a big rash on your face and you're like, whoa, man. That's the problem. It's hard to see anything else besides this huge rash on your face. You have a problem, but not addressing it might be something in your gut or something in your environment.

Rachel Denning (06:28.046)
I think especially with like the rash analogy, it's a wound is something and it's very acute like you were injured there, that's the problem, you've got to fix it. But I think in some ways what we're going to talk about today is more relatable, more easily related to it like a disease where you're dealing with the symptom, there's the big rash or you have some sort of pain, maybe you've got gut pain or something. And so we want to deal with the symptom, we want to make that go away.

And this is the problem with most Western medicine is that it's very symptom management focused. You become a lifetime member of the Pepto -Bismol club and you buy it in buckets and buckets. You know what's interesting about this? This is interesting. I've seen this just, we've been able to work with a lot of people in a lot of situations over the last few weeks. And I've just kind of come across little patterns. I came across one just a couple of days ago.

And these guys had huge bottles of Advil and they were talking about just consuming it daily. And I'm like, whoa, these mega bottles. And I walked in this local grocery store here in a small town and you walk in the literally the very first thing right in front of your face, you go through the doors was this huge stand aisle of these huge bottles of painkillers. And I'm like, I think, and it never occurred to me. Like we only take it at the most, you know,

when it's absolutely needed. We very, very rarely take any kind of medication or anything. And when we do, it's usually ibuprofen. And you take the minimum amount and like you're done. Like it's just for a moment. But I start talking to people, I'm like, whoa, what? People are living on this stuff. It's part of their daily routine. I mean, they take pain meds, like some people take vitamins. I mean, it's amazing. And it was just shocking to me. And they, this...

particular interaction I overheard was this mother and son and they were both squawking about how they had each, you know, finished off the other's bottle and like, Oh, it's your turn to buy now. And it's just like, it's like soda. They're like, Hey, it's your turn to buy the next cake. Cause you finished off my case. And like, let's hit this stuff. And then of Advil and pain meds and they're just going through stuff. So it's symptom management. Like, okay, a stomach ache. So I'm going to take tons of like Pepto -Bismol or whatever. So back to this analogy.

Rachel Denning (08:52.91)
that if that's all we focus on is dealing with the symptoms, we never get to the root cause of the disease. What is causing the problem? And that's what we want to, I think, talk about today. We're going to use... There's several examples. There's several examples, but we're going to use what's going on in the media right now, one of which is Roe versus Wade being overturned. And again, we're not... And gun laws. Gun laws. We're not here to take a stand one way or the other. We're here...

Like in previous episodes we've done regarding COVID and things like that, we're here to help critical thinking, to think through the problem above the surface level discussion, which to us is equal to symptom management. Because in the minds of many people, this is a issue with polarity. And there's either one answer or the other, that's it. And you're either on one side or the other, and that's it.

And there's either one, this solution or that solution and that's it. When in... And those options are very reactive usually. Yeah. Like you hear something and bam, I have a reactive conclusion or... Exactly. ...conviction about something without seeing beyond the surface. When in reality, that discussion that's going on is very surface level. Yeah. And the solution is likely something very different. Yeah. It's likely something...

Nobody thought of yet maybe or somebody has thought of yet, but but it's not being hurt. It's not Yeah, the the two simplest options a or b are neither one or the solution but that's all that's being shared around and V eminently and then we start attacking each other eminently or vehemently

Should we talk about that? No, that's not. But it's being spread around and then all of a sudden it's being polarized and there's this fight. And you're seeing from a broader perspective, you step back a couple feet and you start noticing that these two groups are fighting each other and attacking each other over symptom management, over superficial or surface level issues.

Rachel Denning (11:08.174)
that neither one of them seem to be discussing the bigger problem or the bigger picture solutions. It doesn't seem like you go around and you talk to people and you hear about it, you look on social media, you look all over the internet, news, whatever, and you can't find anyone who's talking about a real solution. It's just some symptom management. They say, you know, management A or management B and where the people are like, well, there's the cure. And how are we talking about the...

depth of the issue here. Complexity. Like with everything in life, there's a lot of complexity. We are complex creatures and we live complex lives. Like there's always complexity in every issue and I guess partly it just bothers me honestly. Like it really does. I truly do get bothered because I'll be scrolling on social media and you know because...

I do that for my work. And I see the opposing sides and I'm like, where's the real conversation? Where is someone talking about the real, the real cure, right? I just, I don't know why it bothers me, but it just does when I feel that there's a lack of critical thinking in a way. Maybe that's what bothers me. Yes. Well, and I learned something last night. You've heard, you've heard us reference before.

the great debate or the great discussion. And it's like, basically that's referencing this ongoing discussion that's been going on for centuries around big ideas. And so authors and thinkers, philosophers, religious leaders, they've kind of chimed in and participated in the great debate, the great discussion. And most people just go through life without even knowing it's even going on, that it even exists.

Well, one reference that I came across last night from some of the older philosophers, they call it the perennial philosophy. And it's this idea of the core philosophies, really what we're talking about here. The core philosophies on a perennial basis, like this is ongoing. These are the difficult complexities of being a human. And we have to address them. And yet,

Rachel Denning (13:36.814)
Again, historical patterns show groups fighting, squabbling, attacking each other over surface level symptom management. And so again, it's worth reemphasizing, we don't come with all the answers. We have more questions than answers, but it's, man, it's worth considering the questions and saying, and asking yourself, are you being caught up in the drama and being reactive because of your lens or?

your current reality or the old reality or honestly the reality that you were given, somebody handed it to you, whether it was your parents or a school or church or whatever. Or you have the reality that's an opposite of what you were given. Yep. So you just say - Because people often do that. They respond by saying, well, I grew up with this and now I'm rejecting that and taking the opposite point. And I think what you just said there was a good point. Like we're coming with more questions and that's kind of what we're trying to -

portray here or share is that asking the right questions is so critical. And I think in, let's use this as an example, like the people, the question people are asking right now is, should abortion be legal or not? That's the question. And we're kind of saying, well, wait, maybe there's a different question. Maybe there's a better question. Maybe there's a broader question. Maybe there's a deeper question. Like what other questions are we missing?

because we're focusing on should abortion be legal or not? And which side of the fence are you on? And you're trying to simplify it so much to take something so complex like abortion and asking is it wrong or right? Yeah. Well, the honest answer, at least from my perspective, is that depends. Right. Should it be illegal? Hmm. That depends.

Now, here's the funny thing, because immediately now people right now are going to be like, oh, I know what side you're on. I know what you're going for. And the irony is, no, that's not what we're going for. We're asking different questions. On this and many issues, Rachel and I, I think it was fair to say that over the years, we've bounced back and forth between sides and on many issues landed in the middle saying, hmm, it depends. Exactly. Because, and here's why.

Rachel Denning (16:02.094)
What helps all of us see beyond the surface is more exposure and more experience. And as you work with more and more and more and more and more people around the globe from different backgrounds and you hear their stories, and you see and first hand get to hear, see, experience what they're going through, it changes your reactive hard line. This is the way things are.

Because then you hear their story and you're like, oh. If I was in your shoes. OK. That kind of undoes my really hard black and white stance on this issue, because now I just heard a story that says, wow, actually, OK, I can see a very important exception to the rule. So then if there is an exception to the rule, and we can say this generally, and then we start applying it to the topics we're going to address today.

If there is an exception to the rule and it's genuine, then should that person have access to something that helps them solve their unique problem? So that's where it gets complicated. That's just one of the ways the issues where it gets complicated. So let's do specifically for, I think most of you, most of you hopefully have thought through this, but I want.

Again, we're asking and discussing it so you think about it more. And spend some time thinking about it, discussing it, writing about it, hearing other perspectives. But like with abortion in particular, I have personally met people who, multiple, who if they carried the baby full term, it would have killed the mother. That's one. Another one, I've met people who have been raped. And...

did not want to carry the baby full term. Or incest, I've actually met people in that situation. Or, I mean, there are more issues. And so if you take something extremely difficult, now, if you haven't been through like severe trauma or difficulty or challenges yourself, it's quite easy. I remember thinking like this, it's quite easy. Oh, well, I know what I would do. Like, well.

Rachel Denning (18:22.605)
It's real easy when your life is good and everything's comfortable and you've had this amazing experience to say, well, that's what I would do. And I think it's wise of us to slow down and say, well, I sure hope this is what I would do. You know, we read books about wartime experiences or terrible things. And from our lazy boy perspective, we're like, oh yeah, there's no way I'd do that. Like, well.

Maybe, but when you're literally put to the test through all your limitations and your life is seriously threatened after much suffering, you might think differently. I remember, so I read the Gulag Archipelago recently and Shultz needs to talk about how completely innocent people would, the vast majority of them, confessed to crimes they did not commit.

in as little as 24 to 48 hours of torture. One day. And I was like. It'd probably take me an hour of torture. Right? And we think, I would never, my integrity's on the line. Oh yeah? He tells this story about this woman. They take a man who's the prisoner, naked, and they have his testicles on the table or the floor. And a woman comes over with her high heels and steps on his testicles.

and smashes them against the ground or the table until he confesses his crime. That would not take me 24 hours. Okay. Some of you really tough dudes would be confessing to a crime you did not commit in 24 seconds. Or another simple one. This was so interesting. He said they just had them kneel. They had them kneel down on a concrete floor and just kneel. If they sat back.

or close their eyes, they got smashed with the back of a gun or a club. All you had to do is kneel. And he says the majority of people would confess to crimes they did not commit within 12 to 24 hours of just having to kneel on a concrete floor. Try it. Tough. See how tough you are. Try kneeling for an hour straight. Just one hour and see how bad you are.

Rachel Denning (20:40.237)
I mean, and going through stories like that, here's experiences, meeting people, you're like, OK, I can see why this goes way beyond what you do. So again, I share all that. So you circle back and say, if you or your wife or your daughter or your husband or your child were put in that situation, would you maybe consider something that, as a general rule, is no, but might you consider an exception? And so in the case of abortion, can you?

Can you imagine in your mind an actual scenario where an abortion might be justified or might even be the right thing to do? If that's the case, can you understand that there may need to be legal access to that? So it's, I've met lots of people who did abortion secretly and illegally and they used horrendous, horrible methods to do it. And it was so dangerous and so sad.

So again, I'm not taking a hard line one way or the other. And I'll just share my perspective in general. I'm totally against abortion. We are expounding on this viewpoint because this is a process we went through of coming to this understanding that there could be situations where yes, abortion could be the right answer. I was hard -line, no way, it's wrong, it's immoral, it's horrible.

always be illegal. Anyone who does it should be punished. I mean, that's where I came from. Like it was long a line until I met lots and lots and lots of people and heard their stories. And then I was like, oh, okay. I'm not so hard lined anymore. Yes. Now that being said though, the other side of the story, because there's always another side of the story. There's always at least two sides of the story. And then there's the truth. The other side of that story is.

And I don't know at this point again I'm asking a question we're not we don't know at all we're asking are the majority of abortions performed in the just the United States today for those reasons? For the extreme reasons? Or are they simply done as matters of convenience? And avoidance of consequences? And an avoidance of consequences? Which

Rachel Denning (22:58.093)
Granted, yes, there's hard circumstances where those consequences make life even harder, but at the same time, ultimately, pregnancy is a consequence of previous choices. I just don't think that that's a statement that can be argued against, except in the case of rape. Pregnancy is the consequence of previous...

choices. So if that's the case, and like honestly, I would be interested to know if someone else has this research, I would like to hear it. Are the majority of abortions performed in America done as matters of convenience? Meaning? Outside of marriage or at least a long term relationship that's supportive? You know, can't can't afford having a child, whatever, whatever the reasoning is.

And if so, this is what frustrates me. Why aren't we hearing? I mean, I know why in a way. Why aren't we hearing this other side of the discussion? If we're talking about women's rights and we're talking about.

Rachel Denning (24:17.901)
the fact that women have to deal with the consequences. I literally read this on a post. Men plant their seed and women have to deal with the consequences. And do you know what I thought? Close your damn legs. That's what I thought, okay? And yes, that seems harsh and it seems old fashioned.

It does, I get it. But if you aren't willing to deal with the consequences of getting pregnant, either close your legs or get some birth control. And I don't understand why this part of the conversation isn't being had. Yes, I get it and I fully support that abortion should be available, I do believe that. Abortion should be available for those who need it in extreme circumstances. But if it's only there because it's convenient,

to deal with the consequences of a choice you already made. Like, I don't understand why that's not being taught. There's nothing wrong with teaching a woman that if she has self -respect, she doesn't have to sleep with any guy. And if she's, I mean, abstinence is always an option. It's an old -fashioned option. Talking about rights and freedoms, about abstinence, but why not commitment? Again, Rachel and I talk about this.

there's a bigger, deeper problem around relationships between men and women. And commitment and institutions like marriage and some people are like, well, marriage is old fashioned. Well, guess what? Until you can come up with a better solution. Like I'm going with marriage because so far, and this is the psychological research, not just a religious perspective. People are happier in long -term committed relationships. That's just the truth. And they...

as a general rule don't have to worry about abortion and as a general rule don't have to worry about abortion so in reality the problem with this question about abortion the upstream problem for that is for the cause of this discussion is the fact that the relationships between men and women are off way off first of all

Rachel Denning (26:35.085)
obviously rape is the most extreme example of the offness between relationships with men and women, but just the fact of lack of commitment and a lot of promiscuity. And again, we're not coming, yes, people know that we have a religious upbringing and we have a spirituality that we practice, but this isn't coming from that viewpoint. This is coming from a psychologically...

psychological, emotional, mental, social health and well -being. Like if you look in all of those fields, you're going to find that the people who are psychologically, emotionally, mentally happy are the ones in committed long -term relationships. It is just not psychologically healthy for people to be in non -committal relationships.

Right? And that's not saying you have to practice abstinence 100 percent, you know, if you choose to not do that. Nor is it guaranteeing that if you are married, you'll be happy. Nor is it guaranteeing that. Absolutely. We're not saying it guarantees happiness because there's plenty of, yes, there's plenty of people in long term relationships that are absolutely miserable. But if you look at the whole spectrum, the whole graph of all extremes,

the majority of those who are happiest are in long -term committed relationships. Now, if we focused on improving long -term committed relationships in society, I would almost guarantee that that's going to at least reduce the problem with abortion. Absolutely. So if we, and again, seeing beyond the surface here, I guess we're asking and suggesting...

that taking care, well, looking for the underlying problem, underlying cause of the underlying problem. And if we find those and address those, then some of these symptom management issues would actually go away, which is what you're saying. So if we took a different approach, if we said, what's the underlying cause of the underlying problem here? Let's go upstream and see what the big issue is. Look beyond the surface. And we all put enough emphasis and money and resources, time and training and education.

Rachel Denning (28:53.485)
to solving these bigger social issues, then some of the current issues that we honestly end up fighting over and get so angry about and we're attacking each other and all this drama would actually just kind of melt away because we're going to the root cause of the problem. Right, because if you think about it...

If a woman is facing the heart -wrenching decision of getting an abortion, there's a story behind that. And it's not likely a story of a happy family. Well, it's not. It's not a happy family that wants a child. This woman is in a position where she has to decide to not have a baby. And that's hard. And the people you've known personally, that's something that many women...

they never recover from. I don't know about that phrasing is totally accurate but it's something that they deal with and think about for the rest of their lives. Yep. Like it's not something they forget. Yep, that's better said. You never forget that you aborted a baby or a fetus or whatever. It's psychologically challenging and often traumatizing. Yep.

So in my mind, the better solution is to avoid the need for abortion. Yes, if an abortion is needed for extreme circumstances, great, it's an option. But wouldn't it be better to avoid the need to have an abortion? Wouldn't that be the healthier option for the woman in question? Wouldn't it be better if she didn't have to make that decision and then deal with the...

consequences of making that decision for the rest of her life, that's going to be psychologically healthier for her than getting an abortion if she needs one. So how do you prevent the need to get an abortion? Well, obviously there's a lot of answers to that. One of them is birth control. If she chooses to not have a committed relationship or can't find a committed relationship, at least she can have birth control.

Rachel Denning (31:09.037)
That's an option. Not sleeping around, that's an option because that's also psychologically healthier for women and men in general. And then the ideal solution, of course, in the perfect world, which doesn't exist, is that men and women are able to have meaningful, happy, but not without challenge.

relationships. Committed relationships. Over a period of time. Because the psychological literature is very clear that this produces a sense of stability in your mind and in your life. Because if you can interact with a person over decades, you have a sense of stability in your life. And certainty that you need. That you need as a human being. But if over time you're constantly replacing the main

the main people in your life that creates a sense of uncertainty and instability that makes life in general more difficult to deal with. So it's healthier. This is why parent -child relationships are important too because especially during the first two decades of a person's life, if they have that sense of stability, then they feel a sense of stability about the world because they know I can count on...

Mom and dad to be there. They're always there, they're consistent. That gives them stability to go out into the world and to face the world. Without it, and this is why, you know, people who go through divorce and single parents and all of that, there is a lot more, and there's plenty of literature on this and research, there is a lot more instability, which especially in, especially, the research is so clear on boys.

who are raised in homes without fathers generally are the ones committing violent crimes and ending up in prison. I mean, like, it's so clear on that. It's shocking we're not doing more to prevent that because that directly leads to the prisons being filled and violent crimes like shootings that just recently happened as well. Again, it was another young man who didn't have a father figure, which this is the norm for shooters.

Rachel Denning (33:37.421)
So having that familial stability in family contributes to solving all of these problems in a way. Now that's of course the idealized solution. Well, even in giving your examples there, you brought up multiple discussions that are happening in society that also fit so well into this topic of seeing beyond the surface. Yes.

even with shootings, there was recent gun laws passed again and people are all worked up and down again. I was saying, I'm like, that's a little punny. They're all up in arms. And understandably, I get it. I see why. And yet, are we looking at the deep source problem, which interestingly in this case, if you go way back upstream, it's also in...

committed, healthy relationships in the family. Right. Where so... Well, lack of that and which... Well, lack of it is causing these violent crimes, right? Yes. Violent crimes, statistically, are off the charts with people who grow up in broken families, especially fatherless homes. There's even research about, and we've shared this before in another place, where fathers who roughhouse with their kids, their kids are actually less violent.

Yes, which is fascinating. Fascinating, right? You think you'd make them more violent, it doesn't. The teacher would control themselves more. And when I read that, because it was so fascinating, one of the things it talks about is that when you roughhouse with your dad or whoever you do, you're learning as a person the boundaries. So you're roughhousing and you're having fun, but then you push it too far, you hurt someone, and now there's a conversation about that.

We say, hey, you can't do this, you can't do that. These are the boundaries so that people don't get hurt. And it does actually teach them to be less violent because they're learning from someone they respect that, hey, if you go too far, it's not OK. Somebody's going to get upset about that. You've got to respect those boundaries. And so it teaches them to not be violent. So I guess this is coming to my mind right now. And I really want to emphasize this.

Rachel Denning (35:50.861)
So many of the surface level problems that we look at and then kind of react to emotionally, or we have these knee -jerk reactions or convictions about, oh, it should all be this way, it should all be that way. In particular, this one with, well, with marriage, with parenting, with, so, I mean, again, the abortion issue, the guns issue, the violence issue, crimes, teenagers.

I mean, there's so many things around teenagers that I just hear this endless, you know, it just, oh, it makes me, it makes me so sad because people have these convictions and these realities about how teens are and teens are just this way. And this is why they're this way. And all teens have to be this way that teenagers are rebellious. And if my teenagers are rebelling, then it's just because that's how they are. It's because they're teens and oh, it's those teen hormones, blah, blah, blah. And it's all these completely erroneous conclusions that are symptom management surface level and not.

really getting to the core problem. But I think what's standing out to me right now, social issues, parenting issues, marriage issues, all these problems in several of these instances that are hot, hot topics right now. If you go back to the very root cause, it's honestly around family. Good, healthy family relationships, which must and always start with a good, healthy relationship between a husband and wife. Isn't that fascinating? Like this is just...

It's just kind of just flashing to me right now. And I want to emphasize it. When, when you and I have a very healthy relationship, it eliminates just, just right there doing that eliminates so many other social problems. And that in, again, it's, it's not the cure all, but it's a major factor in so many social problems.

that if we were in healthy homes and we focused on that, then we grew up with a healthy psychology. Again, there's so much going on. There's a lot of complexities. Do you want to add to that? Well, I want to, again, we say again a lot. Again, again, I want to paint the other picture of this because that helps our own thinking and it helps us to better analyze the situation.

Rachel Denning (38:17.261)
I know that there are people out there, I've seen them, I've come across them, we've met them. Some of them I'm related to. That have this view of the family actually being the source of problems, right? In fact, I know there are feminists out there who believe marriage is slavery, right? And that being a housewife is like being a slave. There's plenty of men who think marriage is slavery too. Yeah, so we're not...

We know that this sounds like a very traditional approach that we're taking, but we are completely aware of the other side. And I would say that we've thought through all of that and considered why people have these viewpoints and say, like, yeah, I could see why you would think marriage is slavery or marriage as an institution is a bad thing or the family as an institution can be domineering and controlling and negative. Like, I get that that is a legitimate viewpoint. But...

And how in that reality, family is the source of the problems. Misery and challenge and hurt and pain and suffering. Absolutely. We've had, we've had, we've worked with people. Remember that gentleman who's like, yeah, forget marriage. I tried that one time. Just get a dog. It's the only source of happiness. He's like, marriage is just misery. Right. So we understand those viewpoints, but I guess what I've come down to, what I've come back to,

as I've learned about history, biology, evolution, you know, the bigger picture is I honestly believe that we have marriage, like that exists as a thing, because human beings have been trying to figure out how to do life for a really long time, tens of thousands, if not millions of years.

And as a society, probably with lots of experimentation, we kind of decided, do you know what? I think this is one of the best options. It's not a perfect option. It's not without its flaws, but it's an option that can work if done right. Well, and you can add to that the directive in the Bible that it's an institution established by God and that

Rachel Denning (40:40.173)
So there's both of those sides. So you can take the religious side and go with that, or you can take the evolutionary side and go with that. But either way, you end up with, hey, a solid marriage with a marriage family is the core to a good solution for society, a lot of problems. And for family. So on a personal and a societal level, this fix a lot of stuff. It prevents a lot of problems. Right. And I know that, you know, there's this whole...

idea that it's because of the patriarchy and it's actually, it was created by men to dominate over women or, you know, that whole story. Like, I get it. But I think if you look beyond that, again, beyond the surface, I would, I think we would find pretty clearly that it was even in place before that, before society and its patriarchy. I think it became an institution because it was something that people saw work.

And as we've been, we've been in so many cultures.

different places and traditions and religions and talk to people. Yeah, we've seen polygamy in Muslim countries and... Like all across the board. And what's interesting is you'll see all the sides of it. And it's not this, it's not what we, you know, there are instances, of course, you can find examples and instances for almost any... Right, to prove why it's not a good thing. You could find examples, be like, see?

See, you're like, yeah, you're right. There are lots and lots and lots of bad examples. But by and large, overall, you go and talk to them and they're like, yeah, this is what I want. Men and women want these healthy relationships and it's a foundation for society. And I'm bringing this up because part of this whole dialogue here is that...

Rachel Denning (42:40.173)
Okay, if people say no, marriage isn't the answer, having a committed relationship isn't the answer, um...

My question then is, okay, what is the answer? Because by my, where I'm standing, and I get where I'm standing can have the wrong view here, we've been trying out as a society this whole, let's forget the commitment, just get divorced, just sleep around, just move in, just don't commit. We've been trying this out now for, well at least my lifetime I would say, 40 years.

if not longer, how's it working out? I don't feel as a whole, society is better off. One symptom is abortion. Not even about feelings, because feelings aren't facts. I mean, let's just step back and look at the results. The violence, the abortions, the mental health, mental illness crisis that's going on with so many people. I don't think...

the solutions we have come up with if their solutions are working that well. Now...

Rachel Denning (44:01.037)
Could be wrong.

But if someone can't legitimately come up with a better solution that can provide better results, I say we stick with what we know can work. Marriage can work when done well and done right. Long -term relationships can work. Because again, if you decide you're not going to get married, but you should at least then be in a long -term relationship, right? Those can work.

This is interesting. Neither Rachel nor I were intending on talking about marriage so much. No, we weren't. I know. I know. I know. It wasn't even... That's what I was thinking. It was like, we weren't going to talk about this. We weren't going to talk about this. But as you start thinking through some of the surface level issues that are pulling up and you start, let's go deeper, let's go deeper, let's go back upstream, like we like to say, where are some long lasting, sustainable...

solutions to major social problems, it really comes back to healthy, happy, committed relationships. And even those only work when you go a little further upstream with that and it's just individual habits. Yeah, healthy, happy, solid individuals. That's where it starts. So, so truly then that is the solution to you're talking about surface level discussions, like what's happening up.

on the surface is gun control or no gun control, abortion or no abortion. And if we go deeper on those, there's obviously many different levels there of things that we don't even, we could talk about for hours, but we're not going to. But if you go even further, ultimately you get to the individual. And if we have healthy individuals, so that's why for me, one answer to this problem is healthy women.

Rachel Denning (46:00.941)
If we focus on making women healthy and confident and... And men as well. Keep going. But I guess I'm using this because one of the major arguments about the abortion thing is women's rights. Like women have a right to get an abortion because they're the ones dealing with the... This is the argument. Dealing with the consequences of sex. Which is true. That's true. But I think if you are a confident... Self -respecting. Self -respecting.

mentally and emotionally healthy person, you're gonna have enough respect that you're going to one, either prevent getting pregnant, or two, not be sleeping around. Because you're gonna be with a guy who respects you and is gonna stick with you. That right there would solve a lot of the problems and need for abortion. So if we focus on making the individual healthy,

misunderstood here. We're not putting this solely like I don't want to sound like we're blaming women here. No, because the same goes on the other side. They should be self -respecting and they should respect themselves and they respect others and they should absolutely respect women and have like boundaries and standards and again back to individual responsibility and healthy habits. So ultimately the solution, yeah, a solution. Again, we don't know the answers. We're just talking.

The solution is stronger and healthier, stronger I'm talking about mentally, psychologically, emotionally, men and women who then have healthier relationships which then prevent the need for something like abortion as one example. Ultimately, I just don't see how that is in...

in a... I can't even think of the word. How that's a faulty conclusion. It seems solid to me. It seems like that right there is the foundation. That's the bottom of the swamp there. If you could get to that, if you could get to healthy individuals who have healthier relationships, then you would eliminate the need for these symptom management problems. And then obviously, again, the complexity of being a human...

Rachel Denning (48:18.765)
you get back to, okay, well, what makes a healthy individual? Well, there's a lot of things. And what's interesting and frustrating is that the things we know, we, as in society, researchers, scientists, psychologists, not just Greg and Rachel's opinions, the things that we know actually work, ironically, aren't being talked about. No, they aren't being offered up as...

solutions. So the problem continues at an individual basis, at a marital basis, as a family basis, as in schools, in the workplace, in military churches, in society as a whole. The problems just persist and are compounding now at an accelerating rate. And where are the people saying, Hey,

You need to get good sleep at night. And there are obviously people talking about it, but that's a simple one. The sleep habits in this nation in particular are horrendous and having a major, major negative effect on health of the individual. Right. Alcohol. The eating habits, the American diet is the greatest weapon of mass destruction. And there is plenty of research and science now clearly stating how many problems.

psychological and physical etc etc those are causing alcohol problems the drug problem the holy cow is off the charts. One statistic is that if you look at murders in most Western countries I think almost 70 % of them either the victim or the perpetrator were drunk. That right there.

is a statistic that's astounding. That 70 % of murders involve someone who was drunk. So, I mean, you know, that's one problem. The problems with society, the symptoms, how do we stop violent crime? Well, you know, one of the problems is drinking. That's one of the things. If we can get healthier individuals who choose not to take substances into their bodies that impair their decision -making, we now have a healthier society because we have a healthier individual.

Rachel Denning (50:44.205)
So in that instance specifically, we could actually stop talking about the weapon and back up and start talking about what's further upstream. And in one instance, alcohol. Then we could even go further upstream from that and say, what was causing that? What drove people to that? What drove them to drinking? Yeah. In so many instances, so, so many instances of many of the people I've worked with, talked with, heard about.

who were trying to quit drinking. It was familial problems. Trauma from their childhood. Terrible relationships. Poor relationship with their parents. Poor relationship with their spouses. Yeah, it's that kind of stuff that drives them to that. Addictions, screen addiction, pornography. Those are causing major problems. There's a direct link with porn, for example. You start into porn and just like with drugs.

after a while it's not as exhilarating anymore and so you have to step to the next thing and to the next thing and to the next thing and they found this pattern and they've known about this now for decades that many many rapists started with a porn addiction that had to get worse and worse and worse and the kind of things they were participating in mean harder harder porn meaning they would go from more shocking they would go just regular porn to either abusive porn like violent porn

or child porn and now those become the sexual predators and those are the people that, that addiction led to people who are pedophiles and who are seeking out the sex slavery industry which is massive and off the charts in our global today and rape. And so again, you take something like,

a rape or sex trafficking and back it up and then back it up from there. Like there's these issues, again, they're complicated. We don't have all the answers, but we've got plenty of questions here to say there's a cause. There's an underlying cause to the underlying problem. And all of us can do something about that and start addressing the causes. And if nothing else, sometimes I was talking to somebody just recently.

Rachel Denning (53:06.509)
I think it was even yesterday. It was just like, man, sometimes it feels so hopeless because these massive, massive societal issues, like what can you possibly do about it? And maybe there's not much, but there's absolutely something we can do about the causes and if nothing else at a family level or at an individual level. And so you get you in a really good, healthy, solid place, seeing beyond the surface.

And you can do this with yourself. Like if something's off in you right now, maybe you're unpleasant all the time. And the temptation is to blame it on your circumstances or blame it on the people around you. But if you look deeper, there may be something else there that's the cause of your own unpleasantness. Maybe it's you're not succeeding. You're not hitting your goals. Things aren't turning out like you hoped they would. And it's tempting to...

blame other people or blame circumstances or tell yourself stories about why it's not working, but you just stop and say, well, what's beyond the surface here? What's beyond the symptom? What's the cause? And so start at an individual level and get in a solid place and do it with your family. And then, then start reaching out to the people who are in your circle of influence. But if we, if we always are just dealing with symptom management, the problem will never go away. Right. And I, I,

Another way I think of this is if we always are just dealing with being an activist, right? We pick our side and we promote that viewpoint. That's fine, you can do that. But it doesn't really solve the problem if we keep ignoring our own issues, for one thing, starting there. We shouldn't be an activist for something if we don't have our crap together at home.

Like figure out your own stuff first before you go out there to try to change the world. And so as long as we keep focusing on those things and keep pointing fingers at other people for their viewpoints that are different than ours, we're not really solving the problems. We're just making a lot of noise. And we end up joining this crowd chanting half truths that feel good. Like,

Rachel Denning (55:32.557)
you know, have more compassion or more tolerance or women's rights. Yeah. Support this. And that does feel good. And those things are right and true to a point. But if you go deeper, if you dig deeper, then a lot of those issues are only half truth because taken too far, they actually become a very destructive force in both society and individual lives. So.

I guess the invitation today, and we're going to do the same thing because I know we're not seeing things. I know we have blind spots. I've been thinking about this as I've been writing my book. In fact, I wrote this this morning. The challenge of writing a book is as soon as I hit publish, I know I'm going to learn something the next day that I wish I had included in my book. Or left out. Or left out. Like, go!

And we're always learning, we're always growing, we're always evolving. And as my reality extends and expands, as I open up more and more to greater and greater possibilities, I actually remove my own false ceiling that was in place and I knew no greater things. And so even by publishing this and talking about it here, hopefully we're taking this approach and you guys are hearing us say like, we don't have all the answers, but we're asking questions.

And by asking questions, it's led us to much different conclusions than we would have shared five years ago, 10 years ago, definitely 20 years ago. And you're like, well, okay, maybe things aren't always as black and white as they seem, and we have to leave some space there. But I feel very, very strongly that it comes back to individual responsibility. And as an individual, I can be whole. And so if I start by looking at...

I could really do this. I could comb through my own life personally and just start going through everything and saying, am I seeing the symptoms here or the cause or like Thoreau said, am I hacking at the branches or am I going to the root of the problem? And that's a painful but beautiful journey of saying what's underneath the surface. So examine your marriage.

Rachel Denning (57:49.453)
You might think that... Wait, examine yourself first. Yes, examine yourself first. And in that, you're examining your marriage. There's just one idea. I think, oh well, we just aren't having sex enough. If my wife would just have... She'd be willing to have more sex, then that would solve it. Like, wait a minute, what's below the surface there? What's deeper? Or my teens, my teens and my young adults are making bad decisions. I hear this a lot, you guys.

where teens or young adults are making bad decisions or failing to launch. You might, you look at surface level stuff, well they're doing this and they're doing that, what's the problem? Like, well let's go a little deeper, let's get below the surface, what's causing that? And very often it's the quality of your relationship with them. And that relationship with them is being affected by your relationship with yourself and where you're at. So again, there's so much complexity here.

but so much power in going on, what do we call this? Like a quest, a journey of discovery beyond the surface. I like that. I like that idea of this adventure.

of seeking to see beyond the surface. And I don't see it ever ending. You just keep doing it for the rest of your life. Keep seeing beyond the surface, finding the depth and the meaning. And then when you discover what's there, do something about it.

Oh, I love it. Okay. Do something about it and, and leave a review for the podcast and share it and connect with us. Ask us questions. If you're not following us on social media, follow us on, on Instagram or Facebook, ask questions there. And if like, if we have resources for all of this, we love this stuff. This is what we live for.

Rachel Denning (59:53.773)
You guys, we're such nerds. We geek out about this all the time. We're talking about this all the time. Wake up first thing in the morning and writing and thinking and talking about it. We talk about it until we're falling asleep in bed, just passing out and still discussing ideas. And our whole relationship, our whole marriage is built on this, is reading and discussing and trying to learn and grow. And so that's why we do what we do. So thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being awesome. Thanks for caring. Let's all together see beyond the surface. Love you guys. Reach out for it.

Rachel Denning (01:00:26.957)
you