#200 Disagreements in Parenting Approaches Around LGBTQ Issues

Rachel Denning (00:10.958)
emails and questions we receive from parents, begin with something like this statement.

My husband and I have been struggling a great deal in our marriage, mostly over parenting issues. We've specifically been struggling with our 13 year old daughter who told us she is gay. Spouses are struggling in their marriage and it's often because of disagreements in parenting approaches or in issues like this that they're facing with their children, which they're not sure how to handle. They'll tell us things like, I feel my husband is too harsh and he feels I'm too lenient. I know my spouse cares about our children and is trying in his own way to do what's right.

but he's driving them away from us and from God. My wife is being too permissive and when I tell her this the arguments begin. My spouse is overly harsh in the way he speaks to our children. I don't believe in divorce but I'm not willing to lose my children over this. But parenting challenges aside there's also a growing concern for children and parents during this seemingly complicated and confusing time whereas as a society we're trying to redefine things as basic as sex and gender.

Are our children being caught up in these societal shifts? Can things like suicide, depression, or even being gay become a trend? What are the statistical chances a child could be gay? And how do we respond to that if they are? What are the best ways to approach issues like these with our children and to effectively deal with them when they arise in a way that prevents unhealthy parent -child relationships? And what's the most psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, and mentally healthy approach?

for our kids. If you have children and have had any concerns about these and other issues, then don't miss this important episode. If you enjoy this episode or any of our episodes, would you please do us a favor and leave us a review on Apple podcasts or at our website, podcast .extraordinaryfamilylife .com. When you leave us a rating and a review, it helps to make this world a better place by getting this podcast into the ears of more parents.

Rachel Denning (02:14.286)
Parents are the molders and shapers of the future generations. We all need all the help we can get to be the best people and the best parents we can. Families with thriving parents raise thriving children who grow up to have a positive impact on their own families and communities, which leads to better nations and a better world. So you can have an impact by taking a minute to share the podcast with someone who will benefit from it and by leaving a rating or review.

and make sure to follow us on Instagram if you're not already. You can find us at WorldSchoolFamily or at greg .denning. Thank you so much for listening.

Rachel Denning (02:56.75)
Hey everybody. Welcome to the extraordinary family podcast. I'm your host Greg Denning and I am currently in Guatemala. And I am in Georgia, the state. So we are separated by many thousands of miles, but still wanted to jump on and create a podcast for you guys this week. And this one's, this one's exciting and challenging. This one is a difficult.

And rewarding and fulfilling this topic. I mean, because it's probably the most important thing we do in life and the most challenging thing we do in life. And man, it's easy to get this. Well, it's, it's complex and it requires all of us, uh, and all meaning like all of me and all of you, it requires our whole soul and effort to do this well.

And the risks are super high. You guys, uh, I still in my work, I get to work with, with individuals every single day. And I'm working with individuals in their forties and fifties and sixties who are still struggling with major issues because of their parents and the way they parented. And you know, even guests I have on my podcast, like most of the guests I've had on the beat a man podcast.

talk about issues they had with their parents. In fact, maybe that's the most common thing in humanity. It's that we were like, oh, my parents did this or they didn't do that, right? It's just such a big deal. The way we're parenting will have a lifelong effect on our children. And I just, I say that to really emphasize just how important it is that we figure out how to do this really, really well.

Well, because I mean, for one thing, that's a lot of pressure there. You know, like your children are going to be dealing with the way you parent for the rest of your life. And that seems really heavy and it is, but that's also why it is so important. And that's why we need to be aware of that because rather than making us feel guilty or overwhelmed, it needs to, we need to look at it at the right, in the right framework so that it motivates us.

Rachel Denning (05:23.789)
Like you were saying to be our best self, it requires all of us. And when you say all of us, you're not talking about like all of the people, although that's true as well, but it requires. 100 % of our individual person becoming the best that it can be. If that makes sense. Exactly. Exactly. And whether you like pressure or not, if, and whether you intentionally got pregnant or not.

If you have kids, the pressure's on and there's no escaping it. No avoiding it. You just, you just stand up and you shoulder that pressure. It's like, I tell my clients, I tell my kids like, yeah, we pressure for breakfast and a little extra for dessert. We like pressure because it, it drives us to be our best. It drives us to rise. And so my dear friends, if you have children or if you ever intend to have children,

This is non -negotiable. And I mean that in the full sense of a full way to that meaning. It is non -negotiable that we figure out how to do this well. I don't even know how to emphasize this enough. Like the deep pain and the wounds, open wounds and scars of people I talk to all the time from youth.

to older adults from the things their parents did or did not do is, man, it is astounding and painful and dead serious. So that's, we kind of start with a bang here to really emphasize how important this is. There's just no getting around it. None of us can escape it. None of us can afford to take it lightly. You can't be like, well, you know, I'll do my best and hopefully it works out. Like that's bogus. That's just a cop out. You can't just cross your fingers. You can't hope it works out. You've got to make it work.

Right. And, and saying that, that doesn't mean that we're expecting perfection from any of us because we know that that's not possible, but too often we see people just saying, well, you know, this is the way I am and this is how I do things. And, you know, I'm going to hope for the best that things turn out with my kids. And we're saying, no, you need to be more proactive than that. You need to be studying, researching, improving your skills.

Rachel Denning (07:48.013)
Because when you run into a problem, it's essentially, which we're going to discuss today, it's essentially a sign that you have reached the limit of your current parenting abilities or your current marriage abilities, right? You've reached that limit. And so if you don't know how to handle a problem, it's because you're at the end of your rope in a way, right? You have nothing else to give or to offer. And so you have to.

Gain those skills in order to have more to give and more to be able to offer to actually provide a real lasting solution to the situation. It's not about, it's not about perfection, but it is about constant and never ending improvement. Exactly. And that's the good news. The good news is this is all learnable and whole. I love how you said that, Rachel, like I see this all the time. I see these parents that said like, well, I did my best. Hope it works out.

That's not even a strategy. That's a crap sandwich without the bread. That's ridiculous. Like, well, I'll do my best. No, like, no, no, no, no. And it might not be your fault because when were you pulled aside and given like really solid strategies for parenting, maybe you grew up with parents who didn't parent very well. In fact, that is the likelihood. 90.

High 90 percentile of you grew up with parents who didn't parent very well. That's probably the most universal thing on the planet is like parents that don't parent very well. So maybe you don't have a good example. Maybe you've never even been exposed to it. That's no excuse. And if you didn't know any better and you were just trying to do your best up till now, okay, fine. But like, it's almost like this episode, I'm sure you've had other experiences, but let this episode be the line in the sand that we are right now drawing this line in the.

proverbial sense saying from here on, you are 100 % responsible for everything you do in parenting. And if it doesn't work, it's because you're not making it work. And so that's, it's now your responsibility. You have the framework today to realize, okay, it's, it's on me. And if I don't have the skills yet, I go out and I develop those skills. If I don't have the knowledge or the mindset or the capacity, then I go develop those things. And I make it a gigantic, gigantic priority.

Rachel Denning (10:08.589)
Meaning I dump all the other crap and I say no to all the other things that are just superficial and fluffy and so much less important than my child's wellbeing. And I like seriously make it a real true priority to become a phenomenal parent, a world -class parent. And so I do it well. And the cool thing with that is, is I, in fact, I was thinking about this because you guys, I drove to Guatemala with my boys and uh,

That's a long drive and we did it in five driving days. And we had some awesome conversations, listened to some fantastic books about being great men and great dads and had all kinds of crazy experiences. And it was so fun to talk to my boys and listen to them as they articulate things, as they notice things and share their ideas. And I realized along the way, I'm like, man, the way that Rachel and I are parenting has

already set the foundation for how our kids are going to parent. Yes. It's, it's, it's already there. And I was thinking about that, just watching Kimball, especially, I'm like, yeah, I, I can see already how he is going to parent. And we've, we've given him the tools already. And our kids are still young and they have tools already for how they're going to parent their kids. So this, this has a massive ripple effect.

across generations, right? And it's all built on skills. Sorry. It's harder when I can't see your face and you can't see why. Um, I was just saying he's 17 as a frame of reference, but yeah, you're right. We were already seeing that they are getting, gaining this foundation for parenting. And I find it fascinating when we interact with, you know, other people, we, we meet up with a lot of people, friends, family.

people that we just meet, you know, that follow us online or something, and they, they meet up with us and already my kids can point out things and they notice things like, well, that was interesting. I noticed that with this parenting approach, like that doesn't seem like that would work very well, or that looks like it works great. And they're able to talk about that and notice it because they're already aware of these approaches to parenting that work and the ones that don't work. And that's huge.

Rachel Denning (12:31.725)
That's huge for the next generation. And so, I mean, in a way that's, that's why we have this podcast. That's why we're here. We're trying to raise the awareness around marriage and parenting so that we have a better world of, of parents and, and happy marriages, because that's going to make the world a better place. Oh, I love this. I love it. Love it. Love it. So the context and impetus for this particular episode has.

been growing over years, we get lots and lots of questions. And like Rachel was just explaining, we have lots of experiences. We get to see, it's pretty cool. It's a real privilege and honor to work closely with so many people across so many backgrounds and different economic spectrums and different upbringings, different religions, different cultures, and to work so closely and see.

see it up close. It's a unique privilege, I realize. Most people don't get to see, they don't get to work that closely with others. So they might only closely know maybe their extended family. And even that's a little bit, there's a barrier there and maybe some close friends. But it's not like most of us get to see behind the scenes a lot of what's going on or hear about it and understand it. So we're kind of operating on our experience. And we kind of slip into this idea of like, well,

you know, other people must be doing, doing it like I'm doing it, or we think it is, but it's a unique privilege to see up close. And so we get to, uh, we get a lot of questions and we get a lot of, um, concerns and worries, and we get to see what's working and we get to see what's not working. And we've also had the privilege of, of seeing when it fails miserably because people reached out for help. And so the, the impetus comes from.

several specific questions and just some observations and challenges kind of across the board of like, how do we make this work? And particularly like in a parenting style and a parenting response, because this is big. I mean, we could spend many, many episodes just on parenting and how to parent, parent style, parent philosophy. So we're kind of just, we'll dive into a couple of things today, but there's a few.

Rachel Denning (14:54.445)
particular issues that we see reoccurring that we want to kind of bring to the surface to invite you to chew on and consider yourself and see how you're approaching it. And if some of these things are fitting into how you're doing parenting. And again, I want to emphasize here, too many of us are just operating kind of as a default parent. The kids come and they start growing up and you're like, well, I'm just going to try to do my best. And the kid does something and

My observation is most parents don't give it a ton of thought. They don't do a lot of reading. They don't do a lot of studying. They don't let it, they don't do a whole lot of specific skill development and parenting skills. They're just kind of doing, doing what they can. And so it's kind of a default parenting is like, Oh, here's an issue. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Or we could say they don't do proactive. They do react.

And so it's reactive parenting is when an issue comes up, they react to it instead of saying, well, I'm going to be super, super proactive and try to prevent all these issues. And if they do arise, I'm going to be proactive in how I respond to them and prepare for them. So I have the skillset to handle on the set of just hoping things work out and when it doesn't reacting to it, but that just doesn't work. So that's going to be the first thing I drive home today for all of you listening.

Do not be a reactive parent. And it's either one or the other. If you're not proactive, then by default, you are reactive. So I'll just lay that down right now. If you are not deliberately working on your parenting skills and deliberately trying to prevent some, build those relationships, and there's a lot there. If you're not working on that consistently and vigorously, so much so that it would hold up in court.

Not like, oh yeah, I'm working on it. Oh yeah, I'm doing this. Like, no, would it hold up in a court of law that you are deliberately working on your parenting skills? If not, then just by default, you're a reactive parent. You're just waiting for things to happen and then reacting to them. And that just won't work. And often just will not work. Going back to this idea of, of how we were raised, you know, when we are reacting, we're very often reacting off of the programming we received.

Rachel Denning (17:19.789)
From our own parents or in response to that, oftentimes we do the opposite of what our parents did, which isn't necessarily the right thing either. And so the reactive method, which is what a lot of people do is the least ineffective approach, because when we simply react to whatever our children are doing, we're often giving a response that is not going to help them. It's just not going to give them what they need.

And so you're not going to see the resolution you want. You're not going to see the development of your relationship that you want. Like just so much is missing. There's so much potential being left on the table simply because we react instead of carefully considering and then being proactive about our responses or the actions we take. Exactly. Oh man. So good. And, and if we're failing, I mean, at a core level,

kind of like a foundational principle for parenting is you have to know, understand, and meet the needs of your children. And those are the universal needs of humanity, but children specifically, boys and girls individually and distinctly because those needs are different. And the needs as they move up through the stages of development, they have different needs. And if you don't understand,

the fundamental needs of a human being, let alone the fundamental needs of an infant and a toddler and a youth and a, and a teenager and a young adult. Which would just interject here, which would be like this bait six basic human needs and Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That's a place to start. If you want to do research about that.

And we did, we actually did episodes on those, you guys. We did, in fact, I did, I think I did five episodes on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And I know I've done some episodes on the six human needs. So if nothing else, start with those podcasts. And as we break that down, like that is at a bare minimum, like the basic, basic fundamental thing. And I see that all the time in my observations. I see that when parenting and the relationships, I'm like, these parents have no earthly idea.

Rachel Denning (19:39.085)
That their kids have these needs and so the needs are being met. So the kids reach for some kind of vehicle and it's not always a good vehicle. It's just, it's just any vehicle to try to have those needs bet. And it's often self -sabotage and causes more problems. And it's all because their needs aren't being met and the needs are being met most often because the parents don't even understand that there is a need and how to meet it. Well, because the parents, they don't understand about the six human needs or Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And so.

Very often, again, layers upon layers, the parents own needs as an individual are not being met. And so because their needs aren't being met, they're also responding and reacting in ways that are destructive to the relationship with their spouse, with their children, because their own needs are not being met. And so they're using those things as their own vehicle to meet their needs, but it's often destructive.

Yeah. And you're right. There's a lot here. Yeah. There's a lot of layer upon layer. If you, if your needs weren't met as a child or a youth and they aren't being met now, then you're showing up as a mere fraction of a whole being. You're not whole. You're a fraction. And so you're showing up as just an empty shell of yourself into the parenting situation. So I guess there's another fundamental.

principle in order to parent very well, you have to be whole, healed and whole. And so I know, I know we're throwing a lot at you. You listeners are probably feeling massively overwhelmed already, but okay, that's parenting. So, so be it. Like this is the way it is. There's, there's no alternative. Well, there are alternatives, but they suck. They all suck and they all fall short of, of an ideal and what's possible. So we're, we're just kind of kind of lay out here honestly, and with love like.

No, this is just what needs to happen. You've got to get yourself whole. And then you've got to be meeting the needs of your children, your spouse and your children. And the two of you together working on this. So, man, there's, there's a lot here. And like you were saying, I, I understand that for a lot of people, this can sound very overwhelming or very terrifying, but the reality is it's actually a very fulfilling process. Like it's worth every.

Rachel Denning (22:01.229)
price. It really is magical. So it's not magic. It's not something that you want to resist though. That might be your natural inclination. You embrace it because it will be, it will bring you the greatest joy in your life by embracing that journey of developing yourself and healing. Exactly. And so don't, don't shy away from it. Don't pull back because it seems like a lot.

lean into it, lean into all of it and just start chipping away at it. Start working on it and it'll be so fulfilling and so rewarding and so meaningful for you as an individual, for your marriage and especially for your parenting and then grandparenting like you'll see it play out. Just yesterday we had this sweet family come over and visit here in Guatemala at our place and she has 13 children.

Her parents are still alive and she has 13 grandchildren and four great grandchildren. And like it was, and she brought like a lot of her kids, grandkids, there was a lot of people here. And it was just so fun. This, just this beautiful little Mayan lady and her, you know, her broken Spanish because she speaks, and, or Kiché, I can't remember which one.

And I just saw generations, right? 13 kids, 13 grandkids, four great grandkids. Her parents are so like, so like, I just saw those generations, this beautiful family. It was awesome to see all that. And she looked at me, she's like, well, how old are you? And I said, well, I'm 44. And she just starts laughing. She's like, oh, you're so young. Oh my goodness. You're so young. You're so young. And I was like, this is so cool. I get to see right before my eyes, these generations. And...

Like, and, and get a vision for myself. And I told her that I'm like, I'm like, yeah, I w I can't wait till I have great grandkids. Right. I'm not even close to having grandkids yet. And I can't wait to have great grandkids. And I told her, I want to live to be really, really old. It's great. You're going to do it. And it was just cool to see this long -term picture. And that's part of what we're talking about here. We're playing the long game, the really, really long game. I'm not just trying to make it through the weekend. I'm not just trying to get through.

Rachel Denning (24:24.717)
this particular instance with this particular child, we're playing the long game. Right. And it's challenging and each kid is unique and each kid has their own unique challenges. Right. And some kids are super easy, man. And some are not. And some are super hard, but I want to, I want to, I want to share something and emphasize it. Those of you who've been listening for a while, you kind of know our story. I want you to know.

especially if you're new to us and just remind all of you if you're not, we did not come from like this idyllic background. I want you to know that. I, in my childhood and youth, had my dad who bailed and then four step dads. So I got to see five men trying to be dads and to step kids. That's tough, man.

And so I got to see that before I left home at 16. And then I got to see in bad neighborhoods. And I don't remember if I, I don't think I lived in any many good neighborhoods, but I did get to stay with some really good families and some really rough families. And I got to see that up close. I was in the home. I got to see it and feel it and watch it. And that happened for years. And then all through the years, people invited me to come stay with them and be with them, spend time with them.

And then I was in homes and then I went international. I was invited to be in homes, to stay in homes, live with other families. And so I've seen all of this and I came with the challenges of my own youth. I had all the wounds and the scars and my needs not being met and the insecurities and the fears and the doubts and all that stuff that I had to go through to get whole myself. I had a crazy, crazy temper. I was insane.

And I had to, I had to completely drop that. In fact, I didn't before I even met Rachel, I dropped that because I knew that would negatively affect my marriage and parenting. So, and I share that just to let you know, like wherever you're coming from, like if I can do it, you can do it. And, and I went through this process. So I guess I'm saying, I'm not, I'm not asking you to do something that I wasn't willing and didn't already do myself. This, this whole process of getting

Rachel Denning (26:45.741)
getting whole and healed myself so that I can be a better parent and then then going through these needs and meeting all this. So I didn't come from this wonderful background with amazing parents and life was perfect. And so it's easy for me to keep parenting. Most of what I learned early on was what not to do.

which actually it actually worked quite effectively. There there's just you can make a list of what not to do. I mean, it's easy to make a to do list and it's also easy to make a not to do list. And I think you should. I think you should make both lists. Yeah, I think that's a valid approach to literally sit down and say, OK, maybe I don't know what to do as a parent, but can I make a list of what not to do?

And I think all of us can do that. So that's definitely a place to start. I love that. Oh, yes. That's easy. Start to babe. You just, okay. Well, yeah, I'm not sure what to do in this situation, but I definitely, I'm dang sure what not to do. And oftentimes don't do that. Oftentimes we get that from things we are doing. We've done it and it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right. And we're like, you know what? Like write that down. I don't want to do this. And you may not know what else to do instead, but that's a starting point.

Rachel Denning (28:25.386)
And I think that's a perfect lead -in to another principle we wanna share here. Well, and I do want to read a couple of questions as well. I don't know if you were planning on me doing that, but go ahead. Yeah, well, let me, yeah, and then we'll hit the question. Let me just throw this in there. Whatever you're doing, just constantly evaluate it. Say, is this working? Is it bringing value?

to the relationship and to the child? Is it serving its purpose? Is it working as a parenting philosophy? This one kills me because I see so many parents that they're just so committed to or married to some parenting philosophy or strategy, even though it doesn't work. It doesn't work at all. And even if they have big families, I've watched this for decades. I've been paying attention.

I've been paying close attention because at 16, when I moved out, I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not doing what my parents did. I'm going to be an awesome parent. And so I started noticing, I mean, I, I've been watching very, very closely since I was a teenager and I've been taking notes. Like, so basically for 30 years, I've been watching very, very closely because it meant so much to me. And so I've been watching people and no joke, they'll use the same.

pathetic strategy that does not work on all their kids and they just keep using it. And sometimes even know it's not working, but they're like, well, that's, that's just, that's how I parent or that's, that's the way I'm doing things and it doesn't work. And they keep doing it. I don't know why that that psychology has never made any sense to me of why you would keep doing something that doesn't work. And I think it's because they don't know what else to do or they.

They heard it somewhere or saw it somewhere or, or I don't know why they do it, but they just hold on and they just keep doing it again and again and again. It's not working at all. I think sometimes why they do it is maybe they saw a parent that did it. And, and sometimes I've seen where one strategy will work with some kids and not work with others and either they saw it work. Maybe it worked on them as a child. And so they thought, Oh, well, that's what I'm going to do. It worked for my parents on me.

Rachel Denning (30:48.106)
even though it didn't work for your siblings or, and it doesn't work on your kids. And so I think they hold onto those things as like, well, this must work because it worked in this one situation. And that's one of the things we're talking about. This is the part of proactive parenting that you need to be aware of. One strategy could work for one kid in a certain situation, but that doesn't mean you just play that key for the rest of your life, right? As a parent, it doesn't always work. You have to adapt and change and

Do things differently according to the situation, according to the child, according to a lot of things. Like it's dynamic. It's a dynamic process. It is not static. It's ever changing. Oh my goodness. If we could just pound that one home, what Rachel just said is so important. It is always dynamic. And so the key to successful parenting is always, always adapting. And don't, don't you dare hold on to anything.

That that may have worked in a situation with a certain child. Like that doesn't mean anything. If it works with them when they're 11, it may not work when they're 13 or 23. Or if it worked in this situation, you're like, Oh, that worked. I'm going to, I'm going to use that card again. It won't, it won't work necessarily. It might, right. There's the, it might. And there's principles, right. They carry over. There's common denominators, but man don't avoid the temptation to be like, well, this is just what I'm doing.

Or I saw this work one time. So I'm going to just push that. It may completely backfire. And in many cases, we're going to talk about later, it actually produced the exact opposite result of what you want. Exactly. Okay. So we got some questions. We, we love it to get questions. In fact, I think specific questions often make the best podcast because it's great. It's a great starting for.

place for us to be able to begin answering a specific question. So I'm just sharing that because we want you guys to ask us questions. Um, in one of these questions, the husband and wife are struggling in their marriage, but it's mostly over parenting issues specifically. Yeah. Which is very common. I mean, there's a lot of things to struggle with in your marriage, but parenting issues is definitely one of them because you have.

Rachel Denning (33:14.154)
differing ideas, you have different backgrounds, you have different approaches, you have your male and female that plays into it as well, right? Men versus women. So there's a lot going on there. Um, but specifically in this situation says, I usually feel he's too harsh in his parenting and he feels I'm too lenient. So that's something we're going to discuss, but let me finish on this a little bit more first, before we get into that.

Um, specifically we've been struggling with our daughter who told me almost two years ago that she is gay right now. She's 13. So that means it would have been when she was 11. I know this is common in our culture today. I struggle with understanding why kids need to even define themselves as gay or straight at such young ages. Many of her friends have also said they are gay or transgender and change their names to reflect this.

It's such a complicated and confusing time for children and parents. My husband and I are Christians. My daughter knows that what we believe from the Bible about homosexuality and however, my husband has been very harsh about it. So that's a good place for us to start with this. Um, and we, I have another question that will tie into it, but I think let's start with this because already there's a lot to unpack.

One of the things, one of the challenges with parenting, marriage, all of these issues in general is that there's layers to them. And I know in my coaching and I'm sure in your coaching as well, Greg, that part of the, our work is to help people uncover the layers. Because when you can actually identify which issue you're dealing with, it makes it easier for you to deal with that issue.

Right. And you, so in a way you kind of have to separate it out and say, okay, this is this issue and this is this issue. Cause sometimes you'll spend a lot of time talking about one thing and then you realize that's not actually what you're talking about. You're talking. It's not the thing. And I know that happens a lot, especially with women, but I think in the relationship itself, that that can happen a lot where you feel like you're talking about this or one of my coaching clients, like she felt.

Rachel Denning (35:31.85)
She was getting in this argument with her husband or this disagreement over the landscaping. When, when you uncover that you realized it wasn't about the grass and the flower beds. Really? It was really about not feeling heard or validated or, you know, like trusted. And so when you begin to understand that that's what it's really about, then you're able to have a different conversation. So you can actually get to the heart of the issue instead of like, well, wait, I thought you wanted the grass, you know, or whatever it is. And so it gets confusing.

unless you can separate it out and get clear about what issue you're actually dealing with. Yes. And so, yeah, thank you, Rachel. So many issues, you guys, please listen, listen to this and hear this. Let us sink in. So many issues are not the issue. They are merely a vehicle to meet a different need, right? It's a symptom. So it's like it's symptom management. It's a symptom.

of a bigger problem or it's, it's the effect, but not the cause. And so there's, you know, everybody's out trying to work on the effect while neglecting the cause. We're, we're like Thoreau said, we're hacking at the branches while, you know, he said there's thousands hacking at the branches while one is going to the root of the problem. And it's the same thing. So we're hacking at the issues, but that's not the real issue. It's just the vehicle. It's a symptom.

of the other issue. So we have to be able to see that in ourselves, in our, uh, with our spouse and especially in parenting. Yes. Yeah. So can I hit, can I hit some fundamental philosophical things here? Um, just around this particular thing, you know, the, and it's the, thank you for the question, sincere question, sincere observation. And you step back and you see.

It seems like, oh man, these are hard, confusing, difficult times. And, and I, I understand why you would say that and understand why it seems like that. But if you take a step back and say, actually, no, it's not, it's not that confusing. It's really not that complicated either.

Rachel Denning (37:58.282)
And it's not that difficult. The challenge is if we don't have a solid foundation and a solid framework and we don't have good strategies in place, then yes, everything gets confusing and complicated and difficult. And we make it really, really hard on ourselves. I would say most parents, and this is a bold statement, but I believe it in my observation, working with thousands of people across five continents, most parents,

are operating in chronic self -sabotage. They're making it way, way harder than it actually is or that it ever needs to be. And so as I was listening and feeling the question, I was also thinking, I'm like, my kids aren't at all confused. They're not confused at all. And it's no, it's quite simple. And I know in the question too, she said, I know it's a common problem in society. Actually, it's not. It's not common at all.

Now it's getting talked about like crazy, but it's actually, there's only a tiny percentage of people that are in some kind of, uh, either homosexual or, or transgender or whatever that is. Like any one of those, those, uh, letters, the letters. And I'm going to say that you, I'm going to say, okay, I'm going to use these words. Don't misunderstand me though. I'm going to use the word abnormal.

because it's not normal. So normal would be heterosexual is normal because it's 96 % of society or more. And this is like a judgment statement. Yeah. So saying abnormal is not a judgment statement. It's just mathematical. Yeah. It's, it's an abnormality because it's, it's a tiny percentage of people. And so like the whole human race exists because of heterosexual behaviors. In fact, the whole animal kingdom, almost every living thing on this planet is here because of

heterosexual behavior. And of course a scientific viewpoint, that's the norm because that's what reproduces life. Yeah. That's the only way it works. So if a bulk of people went homosexual, then there's no, there's no perpetuate, no perpetuating the species and the species goes extinct. In fact, that's nature's way of making that idea is go extinct. I'm going to be that bold. It's like, you can't, you can't perpetuate that. It can't.

Rachel Denning (40:25.45)
homosexuality can't continue because you can't reproduce. And so it dies. Well, but interestingly enough, because I've also heard, um, Jordan Peterson discuss this and he's interviewed several, you know, multiple gay people, transgender people, and discussing it together. One of the things they've talked about, cause he does Jordan Peterson does the five, the big five personality tests. And it's something that's well researched and documented and peer reviewed and.

in those big five personalities, there's actually, um, one of the personality types is openness and openness is also associated with creativity. Um, looking at the world from a different viewpoint. But one of the things he discussed is a lot of people that are homosexual are also very high in openness. And so his part of his theory and what he's discussed with people that are gay and transgender is that, you know, yeah.

If you were to talk about it in an evolutionary viewpoint, then you would think, oh, homosexuality would go extinct because it doesn't work. Well, it may be that having a percentage of people that are very high in openness, which would also equal a percentage of people that are homosexual leads to art and creativity and culture, like these different aspects of our culture that are beneficial in small amounts, but in large amounts would.

you know, obviously lead to other issues like the extinction of the species. So it's not that it's something that's can't be possible or not be beneficial in some way, if that makes sense. But going back to this idea that the norm is still going to be people that are low, you know, they're either in the middle on openness. If you're talking specifically about the big five personality trait, right.

because there's people on all levels of that spectrum. If that makes sense. Does that make sense? What I'm talking about to you even? Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. And, and I guess I want to emphasize here is like, sometimes we get thinking, Oh my goodness, it's so common. It's everywhere. It's a huge problem. It's like, no, it's not. It's really not. Um, if you just go pure percentile and let's, let's go, let's give it a little more range. Let's say it's 4 % or even as much as 5%. That's still 95 % of people are heterosexual. And so,

Rachel Denning (42:53.002)
It's not just pure percentile. It's not that common, but it seems common. And it depends on who you're around and where you are and what you are choosing. And yes, it is a choice what you're choosing to be engaged in. And so like in order to be successful in life, we have to have very strategic engagement in certain things and very strategic disengagement in other things.

So we don't have to participate in all the tribal functions and all the social conditioning and social expectations and all the things going on in society. We don't have to participate. Now we can be aware of them and we can be very well educated and we can be integrated. So we're not talking about living in your little hole and like hiding from the world and what's happening in the world and keeping your children away from all those evil people.

We're not talking about that at all. I think that's actually very, very poor parenting strategy. And I see a ton. Maybe we can circle back to that. It's very narrow minded and it's very, um, prejudiced. I mean, we personally have associations and friendships with all sorts of types of people, including gay and transgender and, and, you know, All of that, every kind of religion and every walk of life. And I think it's a wonderful, beautiful thing. And that makes for a well rounded individual. So,

That's it. There's another principle right there. But I guess I just want to drive this fundamental concept home. It's not that common. It's not that confusing. It's not that big of a deal. And if it seems common and confusing and big deal, like something's off in how you are doing life. And so, like, for example, you said a lot of her friends are changing their names, getting into that, like the mathematical percentage. How did you say this, Rach? The

the chances because it's such a tiny percentile of people who are in that category, the mathematical percentage or the possibilities that she has multiple friends in her group that are in the 3 % of the population is borderline impossible. Right. It's highly unlikely. And I think,

Rachel Denning (45:12.81)
Again, we're unpacking different layers here. This is one of the layers. One of the layers is in a situation like this from a parenting perspective, if my child was telling me, oh, I have multiple friends that are gay and transgender, well, I know from a statistical viewpoint that that's very improbable. Because if 3 % of the population, 3 % to 5 % of the population is in the category of LGBTQ,

What are the chances that my daughter is going to be friends with multiple? Yeah. Five of them at her school. That's just very, it's slim to none really. And so I begin to look at other aspects here because I also know from a psychological viewpoint that certain things become popular or trendy. And that includes issues like this. It also includes suicide. I personally lived.

in a neighborhood where suicide became trendy and people started committing suicide because their friends had committed suicide. What was the other thing I was gonna say? School shootings? Yep. Drugs. It's psychologically proven that these things become popular when you hang around the people who do these types of things. Jim Rohn has a very famous quote that you become,

the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So if you spend time with people who are depressed, you're going to become depressed. If you spend time with people who are violent, you're going to become violent. If you spend time with people who think they're gay or transgender, you are likely to think you may be gay or transgender. Now that doesn't mean that in some cases, it's not the case, but we're just saying that who you associate with.

and what they think and what they believe in, what they do has a huge impact. So from a parenting perspective, this is one of the things I'm going to be looking at. Like, okay, maybe you do have a friend that's gay. Okay. But the likelihood that multiple of them are, it's just statistically very improbable. And nor does it. There's another issue at play here is what I'm saying. And, and nor does, you know, having friends that are, that are gay or whatever, like,

Rachel Denning (47:37.93)
No, it's not a problem at all, but it doesn't want to say is an emphasize. It doesn't affect your sexual preferences either. Like I could have, I can have a few friends that are gay and I do, but that doesn't, that doesn't affect me and my sexual preferences. There's so much here. Yeah. And I do think I do understand what she's saying that because.

Because it is becoming something that is more and this is the viewpoint she's coming from. It's becoming something that's more talked about. It's coming something that's more trendy. If we want to use that word, it does feel complicated and confusing, especially if because from your viewpoint, especially if you are, you have this myopic zoomed in view of what's happening. Now, if you zoom out, if you back up, if you look at the perspective,

from historically, psychologically, biologically, if you throw in all of these big picture views, then suddenly it becomes a lot more clear. It's less complicated. And I think that's what you want to emphasize, that you know what? It doesn't have to be confusing and it doesn't have to be complicated because you can zoom out, you can look at it. I don't know what else to say, but from the bigger picture.

Yep. And see how it all fits in with things that have happened before. And, and, you know, things that it just makes more sense. And so that's what we want to emphasize in this journey of parenting is that you have to get the bigger picture. Because when you're dealing with the problem and the day -to -day issues, you're very up close and personal and you can't see, well, the forest for the trees, right? That perfect metaphor. You're looking so closely at the bark.

On the tree that you're like, wow, this is so complicated. And you're like, Whoa, back up, look at the whole forest here for a minute. And it's so easy for all of us in many, many aspects. It's so easy for all of us to get caught up in our tiny little reality and think that is reality. Like that my reality is the reality. Right. And that's why the travel and study is so important because you can get across time and space and realize, Oh man, like right now I'm in a, I'm in, I'm in a culture where all that crap.

Rachel Denning (49:58.346)
It's a complete non -issue. It doesn't even come up. Like all the things we think, like, okay, let's pick some big trends in the United States, for example, the depression, anxiety, the sexual things, the addictions, all that stuff, right? That we think there's such a gigantic deal. And there you think, there's so common. And you think, man, I think the whole world must be dealing with this. And then you go out and you go to other countries and like, oh, it is literally a complete,

non -issue doesn't even come up because in Guatemala, they're worrying about, you know, how to get food every day to eat. So they don't have time to worry about some of these issues that we're worrying about. Yes. That's, that's one aspect of like, Hey, they're focused on like, like sustaining life. That's one issue. But the other one is like just the whole family, the whole family network here is like, it's, it's not a nuclear family and it's not this, you know, bizarre kind of social conditioning we have in the United States.

where it's very peer dependent and very separated into groups, age categories, all this stuff. It's very much the whole family's integrated in the whole culture. And again, there's pros and cons, but it's just an entirely different social structure. And so when you step out and you get integrated in something else, you're like, Oh, wow. Okay. It's not a global issue. It's a social issue. And you can see that with small town. Let's say you live in a small town and everybody in a little small town has this problem. Like where you grew up, that was a perfect example. Like when I met Rachel,

I learned about all these suicides that were happening in our neighborhood. And it just became this thing. I mean, it's just happening again and again and again. Every few months, it seemed like there was another suicide. And if that's your reality and you don't expand beyond that, you just think, dang, suicide is a huge problem for all youth. No, it isn't. It was in that those environments. And then you start looking like, what's causing this? What's toxic here? What's not working?

And then you can get out of those things. So it makes me think of, because you, you mentioned kind of in passing about, you know, our kids not being confused. And I think part of the reason that they do have a lot more clarity is because of this advantage that they have, we have taken them so far to somewhere between depending on the child and the age, um, 20 to 30 countries or more, I think are.

Rachel Denning (52:24.49)
old or 17 year old has been to like 36 countries and we've lived in Latin America. We've lived in Europe. We've lived in the U S and in lots of different places. I mean, we've moved countless times. So they've seen youth and adults and children interacting in different situations and, and societies and cultures and religions. They, they have this bigger picture view so that they don't get.

locked into and tied to these peer dependent relationships that tend to skew their viewpoints and their thinking, which in a situation like this, from this question, that is one of my first, um, I would say assumption, but in my educated guess here is this is part of the problem. You're living in a situation where this daughter's friends are

much her entire world. And if you need to, well, I would actually recommend that you read a book like, um, hold onto your kids. I think it's by Gordon Neufeld where he talks about this peer dependence. When our kids become peer dependent and begin viewing the opinions of their peers as more important than the opinions of their parents, which in this situation is definitely happening. Well, then they're going to be more concerned about what their peers think than what their parents think. And so if their friends are

thinking they're gay or transgender. Well, that's what they're going to do too, because that's what teenagers do. It's the blind leading the blind. This is what's happening. And so if you don't remove the child from those types of situation and give them more perspectives of the world, well, then they grow up in their little corner of the earth thinking that this is how things are when it's not. It's just how things are right there where you are.

And so, and again, like all of these things circling back to a previous point, they're all symptoms or vehicles of a problem and other needs not being met. So anything outside of like healthy, the body wants to be healthy, the soul wants to be healthy, the mind wants to be healthy, and it wants its needs met, right? And that's the standard, it wants to be healthy in a life. Anything outside of that, any unhealthy behaviors,

Rachel Denning (54:48.682)
are usually it's a symptom or a vehicle that needs are not being met. And so you see a lot of these behaviors among youth or even adults or children, whatever. It's often stemming from some deep insecurity, some deep fear, some need that's not being met. And when the needs aren't being met, like things get off and it's true again with the mind, the soul, the spirit, the body, whatever, the body wants to be healthy and will be extremely healthy if it's taken care of. But you put it in a toxic environment, give it crap.

junk food, garbage food, whatever, don't exercise it, stick it on the couch and leave it closed in, not getting sunshine. All of a sudden the immune system breaks down and you're sick all of a sudden. You just think, oh man, life is just a lot of illness. Well, no, it's not. Anything that's outside of healthy, it's a sign saying, hey, something's off and this needs to be addressed. And so any behavioral issues that you're having, especially chronic ones with kids, it's,

let it be a symptom to you, a sign like just flashing at you like, hey, something's off at a fundamental level. And it may be the, in this case, in many cases, it's the environment. Years ago, I would have been like, hey, you know, homeschooling is not for everybody. And you know, you might want to consider it. Now I'm like, dude, homeschool your kids, pull them out, get them out of that hellhole. It is a cesspool and it just keeps getting worse. I couldn't, I...

There are other alternatives. And now there's so, before there weren't as many alternatives or many resources. Now there's an endless amount of great resources to help kids get a great education. So get your kids out of there. Get them out of that junk hole. And if, like another one, here's the addiction, like Rachel was talking about earlier. If your kids hang around addicts, guess what? The highest probabilities is they're going to become addicts, right? So get your kids away from the addiction and the crap. And this holds true for you too. And wherever you are like,

get them out of there, pull them out of those environments. Any behavior that's not like happy and normal and good and healthy is a sign that something's off and you need to change the environment. So move if you need to. And yes, I'm dead serious on this. Like I made this commitment years ago, man, that we would move anywhere on this planet if we needed to for our kids. I'll change jobs, get a new job, like go live on a farm, go live in the city. Like I don't give a...

Rachel Denning (57:10.634)
crap, I'll go anywhere, do anything. If my kid needs to have experiences, those experiences are going to happen. Right. If the kid needs a reality check, the kid needs some new friends and the kid needs some new experiences, like do whatever you have to do to get it done. Figure it out. And you might be sitting there saying, Oh, that's extreme. That's extreme. Yeah. What's your alternative? Just let your kids just be a train wreck. Hope it works out. Yeah.

Oh, this will play out. Well, everybody else is doing this. Yeah. Look around. You want your kids to be like everybody else? No, thanks. I want my kids to be super healthy and happy and they are because we are willing to do what it takes to help them be super healthy and happy. So, you know, you might be like, well, that's expensive. Yeah. Figure out how to make a lot more money. Figure it out. Like, oh, that's hard. Yeah, it is hard. Buckle up buttercup. Let's go.

Stop playing small. I know you would rather sit around on Netflix yourself and eat ding dongs and donuts. But that's not going to serve anybody. I'm just laughing over here at your little tirade. But no, it isn't. I'm holding back here because I really want to go off that we're just too casual about it.

And we're too, you know, it's like we throw a little pity party and wham, wham, like, come on, get your crap together and, and come up with a really solid plan that actually works for your kids to live this phenomenal life and do it, live it with them. Can I talk now? Okay. I'm sorry. I keep trying to talk. I don't even know if you can hear me, but I keep trying to say something and you keep talking.

No, I just want to emphasize what you're saying because while I am laughing at your tirade, I do agree with it because I don't know that a lot of people realize this about us. We are willing to do whatever it takes. And we call these pattern interrupts, um, where it's essentially you're interrupting the pattern your child has been in. Because when you do that, it, the brain literally is forced to think in new ways instead of.

Rachel Denning (59:28.682)
the old neural pathways that it's used to. It's used to certain ways of thinking and certain behaviors and expectations and habits and all of that that they've been enmeshed in for so long. You take them out of that, you interrupt that pattern, and now they create new neural connections and they begin to think in different ways. So it's a very strategic method for creating change.

in your children, when you see things that are happening that you're not happy with or rec or recognized as being potentially damaging or negative. And so back to this whole idea of being proactive, this is what it requires. It requires you to be quote unquote, extreme. Um, I want to share a story and then there's some more questions that I think tie into this and also.

dig into some of the layers here, but, um, for one example, we, we were already traveling with our family and we had, you know, an amazing life and we were living in Morocco. Our oldest daughter at the time was 14, I think, and she's adopted for anyone that doesn't know she's, um, black or white. And we were living in Morocco. She's very social.

She loves to talk to people, but we were living in a country that spoke primarily Arabic and French, and none of us spoke either of those languages. And so she felt very isolated because she couldn't talk to people as much as she would like. Usually she can go just talk to anyone. Um, and so she started to have some behavior issues, essentially.

She, and she was going through a lot. She was dealing with, you know, she's becoming a teenager. She's dealing with being alone and isolated in a foreign country. She's dealing with being adopted and being of a different race. All of these things were kind of coming of age issues at the same time. And, and, and she was, and she was born with some, um, learning difficulties that were coming about. They were coming to fruition and she was, so she was going through the whole identity process too of like.

Rachel Denning (01:01:45.674)
Who am I? Like, how do I fit in this world? Do I fit my adoptive or my biological parents got rid of me? My adoptive parents are different race and adoption, identity, learning things, different. I mean, she was going through this whole process and it was pretty intense. And so the behavior issues again, they weren't the issue. Exactly. They were symptoms. Right. And so one of the things that we, again,

ended up doing as a pattern interrupt was at the time we had this wonderful woman that would come over and she would cook and clean for us. And her name was Aisha and she spoke mostly Arabic and what, maybe a teeny bit of French and you knew a teeny bit of French. Like she spoke very, very little French. Yeah. We were playing charades. It was awesome. But somehow through the charades, we.

said, Hey, can our daughter go spend the night with you at your house? Right. I think she had offered before and we weren't too sure, but then because she was struggling with all of this, we thought, okay, let's have her go do this. And so she took our daughter and when she left after, you know, cleaning for us, she took her with her and they went and they walked around and they went to Jamal for now, which is this really 900 year old market in Marrakesh and.

She bought her dinner. She bought her. It was actually snake on a stick. And then she got some henna tattoos on her hands for her and just all these different things. And then took her to her house and her house was basically one, maybe two rooms of concrete. She had a teeny little hot plate for cooking on. There was a curtain that was the.

bathroom and shower. There was a, well, it was like a bucket of water and there was a hole in the ground. That was the bathroom and there was one couch. That was it. And they gave kind of couch is a generous word. Yes. They gave Kaia the couch to sleep on and Aisha and her daughter, who I think was close to Kaia's age or maybe a little bit older, even slept on the floor.

Rachel Denning (01:04:01.578)
And they didn't really have a door. They just had a curtain that hung up, but there was a big gap underneath the curtain and all night. The wind was like blowing in it and they offered to give Kai a blanket at the time. She's like, Oh, I'm fine. But then of course it got cold at night. And she was like, I should have taken that blanket. But she said all night, these orphan children would just come in to the house and they would just find a spot to lay down and they would just sleep in Isha's house.

And in the morning they got up and I should like fix their hair and maybe made them a little bit of food to eat or whatever. And, you know, Kai didn't sleep very much that night because it was rough. She was sleeping on a couch without a blanket and it was cold and windy. But she came home. A completely different person. Her attitude changed like that because she had this perspective, this change of perspective.

that, wow, yeah, I'm dealing with all of these things. I'm not even sure how to articulate all of these things as a 14 -year -old, right? But my life is so easy compared to that. Compared to these orphan kids, compared to living in a one -room cement...

block with a couch and no door, but she's like, I have an amazing life. And so she had this sense of gratitude despite all of her challenges. It didn't mean her challenges went away. It didn't mean we still didn't have to work on solving them, but suddenly she had a different perspective about them. She had a better attitude about them and she was a more willing participant in solving the problems rather than feeling like she was the victim. If that makes sense.

So this is an example of how pattern interrupts can be huge in helping you to solve issues with your children. You have to be able to get them out of whatever they're stuck in, which we sometimes call the drama triangle. We have to get them out of that and into something different so that they see things from a new perspective. They see it in a different way, completely new.

Rachel Denning (01:06:14.762)
And that needs to be like one of the tools in the tool bag of parenting is on a consistent basis, help your kids have a reality check and a new perspective. It was so amazing. She left saying, oh, my life is so hard. I have so many problems. She came back saying, wow, my little problems are Mickey Mouse problems. Like our life's amazing.

So you leave saying, oh, my life sucks. You come back saying, wow, my life's amazing. And that's just a great example of a reality shift. And we all need that because it's so easy. Again, I want to keep emphasizing this. It's so easy just to get thinking of this is the way things are. This is the way kids are. This is the way youth are. This is the way people are. And really the probability is that's just the way they are in your current reality and your socioeconomic.

state or location, right? If you go somewhere else, it's not like that at all. And, and you find that, but you, you start thinking that it's universal, but it's not, it's not at all. It's, it's a totally different situation experience. And, and you have to get your kids out of that and you have to get yourself out of that, right? And break free from those things. So that's a big part.

The other part. Let me just emphasize that. Sorry. Let me just emphasize that for me. It's so hard when we can't give each other these visual clues here. I think what you said there is so important because oftentimes we don't realize that the real issue we're dealing with with our children is an issue related to where you're living. It's a societal issue. It's a community issue. It's that location issue. And we are speaking from experience because we've lived in so many places.

where we've been in one place where a kid had an issue. And then guess what? We moved and that issue went away because part of the problem was that we were in a certain location. And so sometimes when you're, when you forget to look from the bigger picture, you think, Oh, this is just our challenge. And it's like, well, maybe it's that challenge just because of where your kid's going to school or who they're hanging out with or where you happen to live. And you have to be willing for the wellbeing of your child to do.

Rachel Denning (01:08:32.65)
quote unquote, extreme things and get them out of those situations if that's what's best for them. Exactly. And that's not a much better situation. Right. And that's not, you know, I know some people would view that as like, well, that's just running away from your problems. Well, no, because if you're an alcoholic, you shouldn't go hang out in the bar and say, well, I'm not going to run away from my problems. I'm just going to sit right here and face them. Right. You, you put yourself in the situation that's going to be best.

for your wellbeing.

Yeah. And, and you should absolutely run away from unnecessary problems. Yeah. Pack your crap and run. Are you kidding me? I have no problem running away from problems that are unnecessary. It's so dumb. There's already enough problems. Yeah, exactly. We stick to things like, well, I'm not going to run away. Well, that shouldn't be a problem. It shouldn't even be an issue. And if it is an issue, change, like change it.

There's no reason to be dealing with things that aren't, that we don't have to deal with. Right. There's so much we do need to deal with. Why, why deal with things that are just dumb? It was like, I was one of my coaching clients today. He's like, like it should just be a given that we all get together and solve all the stupid problems. So we don't have to deal with stupid problems anymore. Right. That was he, he is this team. He has all his employees, they're building his business and it's like, yeah, just.

Everyone solves the stupid problems once and for all and stop dealing with stupid problems. And yet in parenting and family life, we're perpetually, people are dealing with stupid problems again and again and again. You're like that, that shouldn't even be a concern. If it pops up, deal with it once done over. And if you set up systems and strategies in your family and your life and you operate in parenting and your environment's exactly huge, huge in the environment.

Rachel Denning (01:10:26.474)
If you get your environment right and you're operating on correct principles and practices, stupid problems aren't even there. They don't even exist. Right. So in our world, and I'm not bragging or boasting here, we're giving evidence this works in our world. We're not dealing with stupid problems. It's not even an issue. Right. And, and so many little parenting things or the kids struggling, like our kids don't struggle with those things. And again, I know that so I can.

I can speak with authority here because I've been working very closely with youth for 25 years or more. Like professionally, I've been working directly with youth and still in. Right. So I know what's going on and you trust me with me. So I know what's going on. And my kids aren't dealing with this stuff because we've created the environment to remove all the all the little problems, all the stupid problems, all those things that. And so, you know, it

What we're trying to point out here is if you're deliberate and strategic, it doesn't have to be difficult, complicated or confusing. It actually works very well. And the body and the mind wants to be healthy and successful. That's its natural state. And so if you set up the conditions for that, it's easy. It makes parenting so easy. It doesn't have to be so hard.

Can we switch to the other part of like the parenting strategies in that question? Exactly. So which one of them, Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. And then I will share the question. One of the things I've observed in myself and in other people is that when we lack skills or like Rachel was explaining earlier, when we've, when we come to a problem, it's usually because we've reached the limits of our current skillset. And so if we come up with a problem and I lack skills, then I'm going to lean.

I'm going to, again, there we go. I'm going to use a vehicle. I'm going to pick some kind of vehicle. I'm going to lean into something that I hope will work because I'm not sure what to do or what I'm doing doesn't work. And so I'm going to try something else. And it's usually some weird form of manipulation. And so we default to making threats to using fear. We, and in this, in a question, I see it all the time.

Rachel Denning (01:12:50.122)
Uh, you blame the devil or you do some Bible thumping or you threaten your kids that they're filled with the devil and evil and going to hell. And, and, and we use, we use these threats or we try to hold something over them because we're basically you lack the skills to be an effective communicator. You, I'll just be honest, you just suck at influence and persuasion.

You haven't earned influence and you're not persuasive. And, and maybe your relationship bank account is way overdrawn. So when you, when you communicate, you talk, you, you try to persuade, it just doesn't work. It falls on deaf ears or they don't listen to you because well, and let's be totally honest. Most kids stop listening because they don't respect you. And generally you don't have respect because you don't deserve it.

I'm just, I'm shooting straight here today. This one just gets me like you, you, if your kids don't respect you, it's cause you don't deserve it. And so one of the absolute most important elements of being a good parent is earning respect and not like your peers or your buddies or, you know, in some, some little other society or group, little circle you're in where you're so respected and you're so special. It's like a lot, a lot of.

A lot of men, especially the they spend their whole lives in the business world because they can earn respect there and they have no respect at home. You know, they're making tens of millions of dollars or more at work and they have all these titles and all these accolades and at home, they're just nobody. Right. And it's because they haven't earned respect there. So if they don't respect you, you don't deserve it. So earn it. The first and foremost, if you want to be an effective parent, you have to earn respect and keep earning it. It's never like it's never one of done. It's not chronological.

You earn respect. So then I'll go ahead. That's, I just wanted to add this, that that's one of the challenges of parenting is because we feel like we have earned the right to have respect. We've given our lives to our children since the time they were born. We've been sacrificing so many sacrifices that our kids don't even know about and they'll never know about. And so we feel like I deserve to have this respect because I've.

Rachel Denning (01:15:15.306)
given you life and I've cared for you since you were born. I've paid for everything. You should respect me, but that's one of the challenges of parenting is that like you were saying, you have to actually keep earning that respect. And especially as your kids get older and more cognizant of you as a person, they start to look at you as a person, not as their parent. And if you're not a respectable person, they don't respect you. If you, if they see you lying or being hypocritical or

You know, do as I say, not as I do type thing. Or even just see you, if they just see you leveling off instead of leveling up, there's like, Oh, what are you doing? You're not even doing anything with your life. Yeah. What do you know? Yeah. And so we have to keep turning that respect. And that's the hardest part for parents is to realize that that's actually a thing you have to earn your children's respect as they get older so that you can actually have influence with them.

Exactly. And I think it's one of the most beautiful ironies that when, when most of us make the most sacrifices is when our kids are really small and they're completely, they are not cognizant at all. They're completely unaware of all the sacrifices you're making. So for the first few years of your life where you're grinding, they are not cognizant of that. And when they finally start coming to consciousness, they don't remember all that. It's not on the scoreboard. And it's almost like we stop.

making some of those sacrifices because at first we're making those sacrifices because they had to be, they have to make, or they have to be made or the child's going to die literally. Right. If you don't feed them and change their diapers and clean them. But as they get older and more capable to take care of themselves, we stopped making as many of those sacrifices and we, we don't start making the other sacrifices that we need to be making. And that's, I think where we're, where real parenting is failing a lot.

is that parents have stopped making the sacrifices because they thought, Oh, I've put in my work. I've paid my dues. They're now old enough to feed themselves and clothe themselves. I don't need to sacrifice anymore when really now the sacrifice. Yeah. The sacrifice has changed. It becomes more mental, emotional, spiritual, psychological. And if we're not making those sacrifices and investments, we lose our influence over our children. We just don't have what we need in order to solve these types of problems.

Rachel Denning (01:17:37.418)
Exactly. And I want to emphasize the investment piece there, just like with money, if you're not regularly making investments, good investments, you're going to be broke. You're going to be dead broke. And the same is true with your kids. If you're not making regular good investments with them, you're going to be broke. Your parenting is broke. Your relationship broke, right? You got nothing there because you're not investing. And so again, I want to circle back to like, so then, then you're like, oh crap, it's not working or I got to really use it. So you start, you start being the tough guy.

or the crazy lady. And so you end up screaming and yelling and spanking and coming up with every kind of stupid, irrelevant punishment. Yeah. You're like, well, I'm going to ground you for months. Like that's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. And it doesn't work. Like you're using all these strategies that you've heard of or whatever that don't work. Your punishment, your consequences are totally unrelated.

to the offense. And you do think, you know, you're using these big threats like, oh, you're going to go to hell if you're not a good person. Like, when is that argument ever worked? Except for a few rare, like, what's the word? Like, right. Even then it didn't work. Like, they were just like, they're holding the thread over like, you're gonna, you're gonna go to hell, you're gonna burn. It doesn't work in church. If in your church, the threat is,

keep the commandments or you're going to hell. Like, yeah, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work. So you have to learn how to have influence and persuasion, how to explain things thoroughly and well. In fact, so well that your child's like, yeah, wow, I totally get it. And I'm in. You don't have to use the carrot or the stick. You don't have to threaten me. You don't have to drag me.

or nag me, I'm in. I'll do it. I'll do it because I choose to. Yeah, I opt in. And then here's the ideal. The kid embraces these principles as their own high standard. They're not doing it for you. They're not doing it for the church. They're not doing it for anyone else. They do it for themselves because you've taught them and showed them by example, how they can have their own high standards that they live by.

Rachel Denning (01:20:01.258)
And then they don't have to worry about peer pressure and other stupidities and all these dumb things because they're like, no, this is who I am and this is how I operate. And this is how I'm going to do my life. And so you don't have to be there micromanaging and helicopter parenting and, and always like falling them around and, and like being really manipulative about it. This weird micromanaging and micro parenting these, again, these, these strange parenting vehicles that people try to use because they're not using effective tools and strategies.

I guess that's the big thing I want to emphasize here. You end up turning to really ineffective techniques or tactics or things that they just don't work. And they never will. They never have it. They never will. And yet you'll keep using them unless you have something that actually works.

And so if you have a kid that's making poor choices, you're like, the Bible says this or God this or what you're trying to make these threats or I'm going to beat you or we're going to disown you. We're going to kick you out. You're going to be grounded for months. It's just insane. And if you, if I were there with like a camera or holding up a mirror, same man, look at yourself. Literally look at yourself. In fact, the next time you want to discipline your kid or the next time you want to scream and yell at your kid or next time you want to

Bible bash or whatever, or even let's go to the other side. The other side is you're too passive. You're way too passive. You're like, I'm just going to love you unconditionally. It doesn't matter what you do. I'll love you. It's all good. Everything's okay. Just, I love you. Like that's, that's way too passive that now you're uninvited. So the other one's like too far to either side of a spectrum, right? You're, you're, you're on both ends of the spectrum and spouses will often go that way.

one's way on the other side and one's far on the other, but that doesn't work either. And so if you hold up a mirror, just literally just turn your camera on next time and watch yourself. And like, is this effective parenting? Does this actually work? Well, so this kind of ties into another question that we got that's related because in the first one here, you know, they said they're having parenting issues, marriage issues over the parenting issues. Um, he feels.

Rachel Denning (01:22:17.738)
She feels he's too harsh. She, he feels she's too lenient. And then with this other question, it's, it's similar, it's kind of a similar situation, but, um, I know he cares about her. He's trying in his own way to save her, but he's driving her away from us and away from God. Then I explained to my daughter that no matter what, I'm going to love her and always be here to take care of her, even if I don't agree with her choices. Now, like you're talking about there.

there is a spectrum here. There's a spectrum on both ends. There's the very harsh, like, you know, this is how it needs to be. Absolutely. 100%. And then there's the other side of I accept, I love. And there can't, there is goodness on both sides of that. But at the extreme, it's actually ineffective. Like you're talking about, you have to kind of bring that in towards the center more.

And it's okay to have the different viewpoints. It's okay to have the male -female role there, right? Where the female is often more, the mother is often more loving and accepting. That's okay. It's good to have that. And it's good to have the harder line, the firmer boundaries. That's good too. And that's why having both parents is a benefit, because you get to bring in both aspects of that. But what's often happening in a situation like this is because the parents are not,

in sync, those extremes are being pushed out even further, which then is more damaging to the entire situation and the relationship because it's not the balanced opposites, it's the extreme opposites. And so you have to come to this understanding as a couple.

that we need to come in closer to the center because that's where you're going to find connection. That's where you're going to find connection as a couple. And that's where you're going to find connection with your child by not being so extreme. Right. And, you know, the, the, the extreme Bible thumping attitude, it drives a wedge. It does. Same with the extreme, like tough love. Like, well, I'm just going to be tough love.

Rachel Denning (01:24:35.338)
Well, a lot of us just being really tough with no love. It's too far. It doesn't work. But then the other side of that where you're driving a wedge that way, if you go to the other extreme of complete acceptance, and we did a podcast about this, about unconditional love and how that's actually a myth. Um, but if you have complete unconditional loving acceptance, that's also extreme because that can be damaging to your child. That's almost like the eatable mother, right? Where you become.

Your compassion becomes a vice. Yes, you should be loving and accepting and understanding of your children. And if they're sincerely gay or transgender, okay, love and accept and work with them. Don't cast them off or something, you know, because that's against your beliefs. You need to have that love for them. But there also needs to be a place where you need to say, you know what? We need to figure out what's actually psychologically healthy for you and what's actually going on.

from a solid foundational, a solid foundation here. Like we've got to have a viewpoint that's solid, not just my friends are gay, so I might be gay, back to this other story, you know. You still need to have some sort of, I want to use the word boundary of let's look at you individually as a person, let's take you out of your pattern here, let's interrupt that pattern and find out what you truly want, where you truly are.

your authentic self not influenced by your peers, not influenced by what's going on in society today. Like authentically you, where are you at? That's the boundary we want to hold of not just, well, okay, yeah, sure, whatever. If that's what you think, well, no, because you are the parent and you have a different perspective. You have a hopefully more wisdom and experience and understanding of the world. And you do need to

be able to provide that for your child. You're the parent. You need to be parenting. And that includes helping them find their own boundaries, guidelines, like you were talking about before, like their own standards, their own high standards that they're going to live by. And those are built on rock solid principles across time and space, timeless principles from the greatest thinkers and leaders of all time. Exactly. It's not just.

Rachel Denning (01:26:58.09)
on some whim or like, well, this is what's cool in society now, or this is what's happening in our part of the world. Like you can't build a solid life on trendy things. Right. Right. And a lot of this stuff is just trendy. And you might look, well, it's always happened to your time. Yeah. As a trend, it shows up in the cycles of society. These things pop up with trends. Well, go ahead and start researching and study your history. Watch what happens after that trend shows up. It's a pattern.

Right. And so, and so the point is here, ultimately you're trying to find the best physical, spiritual, psychological, biological health and wellbeing for your child. That's what you're searching for. And that doesn't happen at the extremes of either side of those spectrums, just accepting it or just rejecting it and, and pulpit pounding about it. Neither one of those is helping.

that individual on their individual, their personal journey. Yeah. Yep. Kids need healthy boundaries. They want, they actually want them. It makes them feel safe and secure to have boundaries. But again, it's presentation. It's what boundaries are your boundaries arbitrary, or are they built on like, like rock solid evidence is just clear and easy to understand for children and youth to get it. Yeah. Clear enough that they can actually understand where you're coming from. And that's.

going back to some of the things are, especially our older kids have said that that's something that's always made sense to them. We've given them boundaries. We've given them standards and ideals to live up to, but we've made them clear in a way or explain them in a way that they got it. And they said, yeah, that makes perfect sense. I want to do that because we have them read the books or watch the videos or travel with us and say, let's go see this. Let's talk to this person. Let's get this mentoring and this coaching and watch to see this.

So they can come to the conclusion on their own and be like, yeah, that's rock solid. It's not just because my dad says so. It's not just mom and dad's opinion.

Rachel Denning (01:29:06.122)
Exactly. Okay. So that's a key principle right there. Get way beyond your own opinions. But I got to say this here. I want to emphasize this. As I was listening to you, Rachel, and you're talking, we're talking about the wellbeing of child. I feel so confident because of all the people I worked with and how closely I get to work and how closely and intimately I get to work with people and see the, the behind the scenes and you know, the inside workings of their life and their minds and their hearts and everything.

I feel so confident saying that 999 times out of a thousand. When there's some kind of behavioral issue like this example, and it's just one example of many, there's some kind of deep insecurity. And something's not healthy, something's not right. Something's off in in either mental illness or emotional illness or even physical illness like.

something's off where it's not operating as it could and should. And it could be literally food, food quality or sleep quality. And again, I've interviewed guys on my Be The Man podcast where we dive deep into like the quality of sleep and how it's having massive behavioral and physical and mental emotional issues. Like so many of these problems are completely unnecessary and it's all related to breathing or sleep or food.

And so something's off. And again, I want to emphasize, I can't emphasize this enough. 999 times out of a thousand, something is off. And those deep human needs, fundamental needs are not being met. And very often it's because your relationship sucks. And, or you have no respect or influence or your lifestyle sucks, or you're not living a great story. You live in a terrible area and your guys' life is just lame.

Lame. If you live a lame life, your kids are going to struggle. I promise. I guarantee that. Like there's just these, these principles and practices. Like let's get that crap straight now. And then everything works better. So I want to clarify a couple of things because you're, you're right. Cause you're saying something is off and that's usually what's happening, but you used the word illness, like mental illness.

Rachel Denning (01:31:26.602)
psychological, physical, spiritual, whatever. And I think to a lot of people, that's probably a harsh word because they think that it's something very, very, very serious. You know, like you have cancer or you have a mental illness. I mean, that sounds so, you know, bad, like you have depression or something, but I think you're using it more in a, um, from your viewpoint, when you're not at your best,

You're not at your ideal. You're not whole. Well, essentially it is illness. It may be a small degree. It might be just a little bit, but it is in the sense illness because it's not wholeness. And so I think that's kind of how you're using it. If something's off a little bit, you have quote unquote mental illness, but not in the way that a lot of people view it of like, Oh, you're depressed or psychotic, but you're not mentally whole a hundred percent. Yeah. You're not healthy.

So even in a small cold or flu, I'm ill or I have a sick stomach or I just feel off, right? Some of these feels off. Or if I'm dehydrated, if I'm chronically dehydrated or undernourished, I'm not getting enough healthy fats in my body or enough vitamins or nutrients, then I'm operating in a state of illness. I'm not completely healthy and whole. The same thing is true with the mind.

If you're not making clear decisions, if you're not thinking clearly, if you don't feel good about yourself and about life, and if you don't, you don't have a positive outlook and you're, you're not making good decisions. And, and if there's a lot of chaos going on in your head, it's, it's the slight form of mental illness. Cause you're not mentally healthy. Same thing emotionally. If you're not the vast majority of the time, you should feel good. You should have good feelings. You're your predominant emotion should be positive. It's good thing. So if you feel like.

You're perpetually irritated. Sorry, back to that. Even, even, no, even then, even if it's just neutral, as opposed to being negative all the time, if you're at least the plus side of, you know, neutral, but even if you're just jumping from jumping for joy all the time, but if you are, you know, feeling contentment or peace or peace, good. Yeah. Exactly. Like, oh, this is good.

Rachel Denning (01:33:41.642)
But if you're irritable all the time, you're angry all the time, you're bitter, you're upset, you just like life just seems like it sucks and you're mad at people. Like that's not normal. That's not healthy. It's a form of illness. It's a dis -ease. Well, it's common. That's common. Yeah, it's not whole. It's not healthy. And again, I'm emphasizing this because I know I'm repeating myself here on purpose. 999 times out of a thousand.

Something's off. And so as parents, we have to recognize that and be able to repair it and, and, and then set up conditions where that doesn't happen. It's extremely rare that something gets off. Which I, the other thing I was going to emphasize with that, because when you're saying that it's, it's true. That's usually what's happening, but I think immediately our first response might be to think, Oh, there's something off with my kid.

But the reality, I think in this, like the situations with these questions that we got, it's not just with the kid. It's also with the parents. We have to look at ourselves. We have to say, you know what? Maybe I'm not eating well enough. Maybe I'm irritable because I'm not getting enough facts to my brain. Maybe I'm upset. Maybe I'm worried about who knows, like maybe a parent struggled with being gay or thought about it or went through that on their journey.

that journey themselves, maybe they knew someone that did there. It might be touching on other issues here that we think are not related, but it actually is related. And if you, if you haven't dealt with something that you've healed, then a situation like this with a child triggers that. And now you're not just dealing with the pain of dealing with the child, but you're the pain that you never dealt with yourself.

Is come to the surface and you're taking that out on your child and they don't deserve that because you need to deal with that pain. You need to heal. So there's so much more that's going on here that is not usually considered. I want to give a specific on that one because I see this so often, the parents will have a deep insecurity. Um, some, some, some hole inside of them, some, some void.

Rachel Denning (01:36:08.202)
And it can be from any instance, right? There's all kinds of ways that shows up, but it's some deep insecurity inside. And that insecurity manifests differently. So in the parent, that insecurity might turn into one thing where they can pass that on. It's interesting. You either directly or indirectly pass on your insecurities and your fixed mindsets or whatever, some of the dis -ease or the...

the mental, uh, any, any mental, emotional illnesses can be passed along or poor habits. Like you were talking about earlier. So the body has dis -ease in it or illness because, because of just poor health habits, these passes on. So we're passing on their kids, but then the symptom is different. So let's say, and this is when I see all the time, the parent has a deep insecurity and struggling with something. The insecurity gets passed along. They just, it just, it does, it can't not. It's picked up. It gets picked up on it. Yeah.

And so the kid picks up the insecurity, but then the kid has a different symptom. Their symptoms shows up differently and they go down this road of this behavior, but it's a symptom of the same problem. So the parent has one symptom of the problem of insecurity. The child has another different symptom, but the same core problem of insecurity, right? Because they're not, they're not whole or healthy themselves. Exactly. No, I see it all the time. Um,

But while you were speaking, it actually made me think of another thing because you were bringing up that, you know, it could be.

Parents are dealing with the same thing in a different way. But another problem, say in these scenarios that we've been discussing today is that perhaps the parent is responding the way they are because they're concerned about how other people are going to view them or view their child or view their family. If, Oh no, what if they find out that my child's gay and I belong to this Christian community and we don't believe in that now, what are people going to think about me? And so that's another ish, another,

Rachel Denning (01:38:14.729)
consideration we have to make is, are my feelings about how I'm going to be judged by others influencing the way I parent my child. And that can be very devastating because your child doesn't deserve that as well. Like, you know, they're dealing with their issues. You need to handle it in a healthy way. You need to help them find psychological wellbeing, but you can't help them do that. If you're worried about being judged.

If they happen to make a choice that you don't agree with, or you don't think your community with would agree with. And ultimately that doesn't help you find authentic solutions because they're clouded by this feared prejudice. Yeah. Outside worries. Interesting. Uh, you also reminded me of something else that many, uh, we, Rachel and I, uh, know personally very well, people who.

they turned to homosexuality because they both observed and experienced really unhealthy, toxic heterosexual relationships. And because they grew up with that and then experienced it themselves, they went away from it. They're like, well, that sucks, that didn't work. And so they switch sides, so to speak. And it's just an interesting observation. Like sometimes you as parents,

because something's so off in your world, it actually causes our children to react and run the opposite direction, sometimes to their detriment. And so again, there's so much here, you guys, it's so complex. This truly is complex. There's so much to parenting, but we have to be looking at all these things like, wait a minute, how's my relationship? So my relationship with Rachel is a gigantic factor.

in the quality of our parenting. And that you don't always think that, right? But our kids have to see a beautiful marriage and a beautiful heterosexual in love relationship. So they know what it looks like. And we set up the framework for them to have beautiful, healthy heterosexual relationship. You with me on this is making sense? Like,

Rachel Denning (01:40:40.97)
We have to be modeling this. And it's true doing everything the way I do work, the way I work and show up for my family, the way I, and here's what I want to emphasize, the way I react to respond. I see, I see men often they're irritable, angry, explosive. Their tempers explode on their kids all the time. And it makes their kids afraid. It makes your kids so afraid.

and it makes them insecure that they're never good enough for their parents. Or they're always walking on eggshells, never knowing when they're going to explode over any mistake. And unable to really connect. Afraid to be honest. This one just is so true. If your kids are afraid to tell you the truth, you've made them afraid.

Rachel Denning (01:41:38.218)
And if they're afraid to connect with you, to be open with you, or if they don't even want to, I hear people say that sometimes like, yeah, you know, you got to, you got to connect your kids with a little, cause that's when they want to. And then they, then they, you know, once they grow up, they don't want to spend time with you anymore. I'm like, that's not our experience. Your kids don't want to spend time with you anymore. What's off. What's going on. How.

What are you doing? What's your part in that? What role are you playing in that? If your kids don't want to spend time with you and don't want to have a close relationship. There's so much there. So you've got to we've got to be we've got to be better about how we react and respond and how we show up. Because so much so much of parenting like I love the.

I love to use the example of the silent film. If your life was a silent film, what does it show? What would the observer see? And in this case, particularly, if you're parenting, if you remove what you say and you're parenting for a silent movie,

What, what's the movie? What is the movie? What's their show about you? Yeah, exactly. How would people view you or see you? How do your kids view your, see you? Cause there's a major part of that. A significant portion of parenting is not verbal. Obviously the verbal matters. What you're saying matters. So that's, that's one entire element of what you say and how you say it is that we could do.

We get just going around for a long time. But the other side is just the silent part.

Rachel Denning (01:43:28.65)
your body language, your engagement, how you show up, what you're doing with your time, what you're doing with your life. If you really are engaged, if you're present, oh, there's so much here. I love this stuff, but man, this it's so good and so important. But I mean, we got to wrap up here because we're going long, but man, this, this stuff matters so much. And there.

Sorry, go ahead. No, you go, go. Well, I was just going to say, I mean, I feel like we've talked about a lot. We've covered a lot of different things. And one of the reasons that do that is because there are so many layers. And so often people, you know, they send us questions and they want an answer like XYZ do that. When the reality is because of all the layers,

You're the one that has to uncover those. You have to, you know, peel that on, peel the onion, so to speak. And you're the only one that's really going to know which layer you're actually dealing with. That's why you have to do the process because you have to peel it and say, is it this layer? Is it this layer? Is it this right? Nope. That's it right there. We got to the core of the problem. And only you going through those props, the process yourself, asking yourself all of these different questions.

is going to help you find the answer that's right for your family. You're the only one that's going to know what's really going on at the core. What's really happening, what the real contributing factors are to the symptoms. Right. And so that's why we like to talk through things in this way. While in some, some ways you might be like, you didn't give me anything specific. Like, you know, what am I supposed to do? You're all over the place. And that's because life is all over the place.

And while, you know, we're talking about, oh, it's not that complicated. Well, yeah, it is complicated, but it's also simple. It's simple by understanding that there's layers. And then figuring out which layer you're dealing with gives you more clarity on which skills you need to use or which skills you need to develop, right? Simple formula in a way, but you have to understand first how that works. And that's what we're trying to do here is.

Rachel Denning (01:45:47.85)
giving you this framework for how to find the layer that you're dealing with, the issue that you're actually dealing with. And then that's where you began addressing it. Because once you know what you're dealing with, then it makes it easier to address. Otherwise it is confusing because you're like, oh, well, what's the real problem we're dealing with? Is the real problem that my daughter's gay? Is that the problem? Or is the problem that my husband and I don't know how to parent?

effectively together because the real problem is we don't have a great marriage and we don't even have sex and we can't connect intimately. Maybe that's the real problem, which often it does go back to that. I mean, you and I both have taught many times that sex is the linchpin of a solid family relationship because a marriage is the linchpin of a solid family. And so if you don't go back to that, then you know, you can't.

truly fix and make it whole. You can't create this wholeness unless you begin at the center and radiate out. So yeah, there's a lot of layers here and there's a lot to dig through. But when you go through this process, it is the most fulfilling journey you'll ever take. And that's ultimately what great parenting is about. It's about taking the journey of personal growth and development, starting at the center.

of yourself and then a shared center with your spouse and radiating out from there. And that's when you're able to find simple answers. They really are simple. Once you go through that process of creating wholeness, the answers really are simple. And you get clarity about things that you never thought you could get clarity about because now you're able to see the whole picture.

And it's truly the most rewarding journey you can ever take.

Rachel Denning (01:47:51.466)
Beautiful. So well said. And I feel like, at least for us, that's the only way to approach it is to go to the core, go to the root of the problem or the issue, the concern, like go to the cause and move beyond the effect and move beyond the symptoms and move beyond the surface level stuff. The branches. Because there's plenty of people out there, like surface level techniques and all this stuff, but

Ultimately, they're just straightening deck chairs on the Titanic. Um, and I see that all the time. Oh, we'll do this and try this and do this and do this, but it doesn't, it doesn't solve the problem. And so then literally they're, they're straightening deck chairs on, on the Titanic of, of parenting and that ship ultimately will sink. But the reason Rachel and I take this approach and say, no, let's, let's get to the core of the issues, which is harder. It's more work. You have to peel through those layers and the onions make you cry.

There's going to be some tears and there's going to be some conflict here, but you've got to get through that place to, to where you work from the inside out for yourself and with your kids from the inside out. So there's this wholeness and man, then like you're saying, babe, family life is off the charts. Awesome. So, okay. Love you guys. Uh, if you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet, please subscribe.

Share this and if you like this, go ahead and leave us a review up to five stars and share it. Take a screenshot of it, share it on social media, share it with friends and family colleagues, share it with whoever you know that, share it with everyone who has kids because they need to think through these issues. And we all need this because it's the greatest work there is. I literally believe it. It's just the greatest work. So we're raising this unbelievable sacred privilege to raise another human being.

And the moral obligation we have to do it so well. I love it. I, I love, I wake up and no kidding. I'm not exaggerating here. I wake up every day. So, so grateful. And I go to bed every night. So grateful for the privilege to be a parent. I love being a dad. And I love being a husband. Rachel's the best. And, and the two of us together that we get to do this together and work together.

Rachel Denning (01:50:12.778)
and that we're so committed to this and this how we started our relationship, our marriage. We started with this commitment of like, hey, we're going to do this right. We're going to, we're going to overcome our own weaknesses. We're going to find and fix our own blind spots. We're going to grow and develop the skills we need. We're going to do whatever we have to do to raise a great family. And it's working and it's so rewarding and so awesome. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being here. You're the best. Reach out for.