#216 Why Encouraging Your Kids to 'Talk Back' Develops Critical Thinking & Decision Making Skills

Rachel Denning (00:11.022)
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life Podcast. We're your host, Craig and Rachel Denning.

And we are just sitting here laughing and laughing about ourselves and my love of dark chocolate. And I tend to eat chocolate while we're recording podcasts. Yes. And at other times which we won't mention now. Hilarious. So you guys welcome. We've had so many great questions and great discussions.

and great coaching sessions. Yeah, great coaching sessions, really around parenting and the dynamics. Parenting and the tendency for mothers to feel stressed, embarrassed, or other emotions while parenting their children in public places, especially if those children are...

especially if those children have minds of their own. Yes, where you have one of those wonderful kids that are energetic and sovereign. They kind of want to do their own thing. They maybe are often marching to the beat of their own drum. They're hearing music, so to speak, that nobody else is hearing. And but okay, but.

I think it's incredibly important to point out that your other kids might be going along to get along and they might be following the rules and they might be more complacent but it doesn't mean a compliant but it doesn't mean they're not struggling internally. You might not be able to see it but they might the resentment might be building.

Rachel Denning (01:58.061)
and it will stack. I've seen this a lot with quite strict parents, where parents are quite, they're pretty rigid. They want things to be a certain way. And the child goes along for a long time, and then at some point, it's done. And I know of specific examples where...

The kids become young adults and that's it done. They literally never Talk to their parents again. They're like I'm out. I'm gone. I'm doing one thing and Never again and though that's an extreme example other ones. They just rebel or they just collapse They just like I'm gonna make my own decisions now. You've been making the decisions for me for my whole life So they go crazy and I think Predominantly that happens when the child

didn't clearly understand why the rules existed. Why we were going along with all these different things. And you've heard us talk about this before.

Oh, man, this one gets me. This one really gets me. So many parents have massive lists of arbitrary rules. They just have all these random laws in their family, their home that don't make sense. Well, here's what I think happens. So essentially, we want to talk about...

I don't know how else to describe it, but the nuances of parenting. These nuances that will make your parenting even better. And I think what happens is that...

Rachel Denning (03:31.021)
Because you were talking about how some parents are just strict and restrictive and all of that and I don't think that's Sometimes that's an apparent intention, but I don't know that it always is I think a lot of times parents just sincerely want to be good parents and because There's a chance of one thing leading to something bad like if you do this this could happen. That's a negative outcome the answer then is

we'll just restrict that. That is a thing that we will never do, right? It's an easy way of, it's kind of a triage in a way, like this is not safe, this is possibly not safe, it's cut off. We're cutting this off. And so you make all these rules to try to maintain control of we only do these things which will keep us safe and only lead to these outcomes. So in a way, I think it's a way of eliminating perhaps overwhelm or stress,

or potential disaster or chaos. And so it's out of the best intentions that they do this. And yet we've seen, and we're gonna talk about that it can actually have very negative consequences like you mentioned before. I hinted at that one of those is underlying resentment that when the child is now old enough to make their own decisions, they're gonna make their own decisions and not the decisions you made because they never really understood why you made those decisions or how you got to them. Especially, as we're gonna analyze here,

when there's a lot of nuance there. Like sometimes this rule is a good rule, but sometimes it's dumb. That's a dumb rule. And we have to learn how to differentiate and see those differences and then talk to our kids about them.

so that they learn to think and understand things that way. That's where real power lies, is beginning to see the nuances in all of the levels of everything that we do in the world. Yes, which there's a lot of relativity. It's parenting relativism. Which sounds to some people like, that's so dangerous. No, because it's black and white and it's this or that or it's true or false. It's one or the other. Yes. I think that's true.

Rachel Denning (05:41.103)
I think you're right. With the best of intentions, I think all of us have a human drive. One of the core human drives is to have control.

And we especially want control in the aspects of our life where we realize, like you're saying, things can easily get out of control and children can get out of control. Like you've heard people talk about hurting cats. You can't do it. And so you get children and then you keep having more children, especially if you have two, three, four, five, seven, 12 children.

You want a healthy amount of control.

The irony is the more you attempt to control other people. And to control everything. Exactly. The less control you have and the more chaos you create. It's actually self -sabotage. The more you try to control something, the more you create, or specific, especially someone. If you're trying to control your children, because you want circumstances to turn out well, you want your

kids to turn out well and without giving it a lot of really deep thought and reflection and having a lot of experience with humans you think.

Rachel Denning (07:07.149)
Well, the way to handle this is control. Because what you're doing, and most of this is like subconscious. You're like, oh, I don't want this situation to turn out like this, or I don't want my kids to turn out like this. So I'm going to just really lean in here, and you start trying to control things. And it's interesting, like this sounds like it comes right out of the New Testament, man. The Pharisees, they wanted to obey God's laws.

So they set up additional laws to keep them from ever getting to the point where they break God's laws. It was like, let's do this law and this law and this law and this law and this law and that will protect us. But what it created was this really unhealthy.

societal conditioning and we do it in our families or we do it in societies where we add law after law or rule after rule. You know, because again, I think you're what you were saying earlier is like we're we're so afraid of a really negative outcome that we're just like, oh man, we're gonna we're gonna lay this we're gonna go all the way way over here to make sure that this bad thing never happens. And the

horrible irony of that is it backfires so bad and it leads the child or sometimes the spouse to the very thing you were so adamantly trying to control against. Right. It forces them there. You're like, man, if you had just approached this.

more tactfully, more diplomacy, with more strategy. Well, with layers of thinking, you know, one of the things that you and I refer to a lot is there's levels of thinking. There's first level thinking, second level thinking, third level thinking. And essentially what that means is it's being able to think beyond just the immediate outcomes. And...

Rachel Denning (09:11.597)
just with that immediate thing, but also the reverse, like if you do this thing, what's the reverse consequence of doing that thing? Because everything has an exchange rate, right? And so in some ways, it's these levels of thinking that initially does seem a lot more complicated. From the outset, it's easier to say,

We will not sit on the table at all ever. That's just the family rule, right? Like that's just a clear -cut rule. And this is an example from my own life. Because when I started having kids, I thought, well kids shouldn't get on the table. But guess what? The kids always wanted to get on the table. It was like they were drawn to being on the table. Especially if I was standing near the table or the counter, they were getting on the table. And Greg would be like, what's the big deal? Why can't they be on the table? I'm like, well I don't know. You're just not supposed to get on the table. Like kids aren't supposed to be on the table.

And you would say something like... I actually loved lifting them up and sitting them on the counter so they're right there with us. Right. And you would say things like, well who came up with that rule? Like where did that come from? You know? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know the answer. I just know it's not supposed to be. It's just a rule. Right. And so then we went to the other extreme of like, okay, you're allowed on the table.

But what I'm coming back to here is this nuance of being able to differentiate that sometimes it's okay to be on the counter or the table and sometimes it's not.

And while we feel like that can be confusing to kids, it actually becomes less confusing when we can learn how to articulate that to our children. It's okay for you to be on the table or the counter when it's cleared off, there's no food up there, and we're sitting here and we're talking, or you're helping me with something, like I have a specific reason, that's okay. It's not okay for you to just climb up at any time when there's stuff all over the counter, it's a mess, we're eating. You learn how to differentiate, and you learn that there are actually nuances in some of the things that you're eating.

Rachel Denning (11:07.151)
situations that you have to learn to look for and observe and then make strategic decisions about. Now you think, well that's too complicated for a two year old. Well yes it is.

But if you learn to think that way, because that's the first step, because you know, as a new mom, I'm like, it's either black or white. Either they're allowed on the counter or they're not allowed on the counter. Like, it's too complicated for me to decide. And initially it feels like that. But when, as I learned to be able to think that way myself, then guess what? I can now model that for my children because now I can verbalize and articulate it out loud. Well no, it's okay in this situation. It's not okay in this situation. And even if the situation comes up and I'm kind of like, ah,

wait, what kind of situation is this? I practice thinking and coming up with a decision and vocalizing that. In this situation, I say it's not okay because of these things and your kids learn to trust you and to listen and be like, oh, okay. Although, this also happens, which is why parents avoid this probably. Now they also learn to...

Some parents would use the term argue or talk back, but I think of it as they learn how to debate or persuade, which is actually something you want. And yet the very reason people, parents set up these arbitrary rules of like, no, never don't talk back, don't argue. You're literally telling your kids, stop critical thinking and stop persuading. Exactly. Stop thinking because your kids will try to, they'll use this against you. They're trying to negotiate. And they come up with some idea of like,

Well, what about this? What about that? And you're like, why are you being so difficult? Just follow my rules. No, they're critical thinking. That's what you want them to be doing. You want them to be developing these skills. And yet when we shut off that opportunity by saying, this is the rule no questions asked, we're actually limiting their ability to develop these skills of persuasion, influence and thinking. So when I develop my own ability to do that, and then I

Rachel Denning (13:14.319)
my children to do it as well, we will have conversations. They'll be like, but nothing's on the counter right here, why can't I just get up here? Well because, and then we have to go back and forth and guess what? Sometimes my kids win and they convince me that my original idea was actually not that great and so okay yeah, go ahead let's get on the counter right now. It's so awesome, we have to be able to do that as parents. We have to be willing to be wrong, we have to be willing to think through things and we have to be willing to get to a point where we're like you know what?

I don't know. I don't know why. And let's, okay, let's try it. Yeah, let's try it. But I remember just desperately wanting things to be black and white. It was almost like there's this underlying...

primal evolutionary Yes, this insecurity right so we we haven't all humans have this need for certainty and we feel like

At least if we haven't learned to be second level thinkers or to understand when things are relative, when there's exceptions, because there's so many exceptions to almost everything. And again, please do not misunderstand us. We are not advocating license to do whatever. We're not saying, well, whatever, just do whatever you want. That's not at all. We're actually advocating the opposite. Have extremely high standards, but not...

strict arbitrary rules and laws. So you have to be able to think through it, which is difficult because like I just wanted black.

Rachel Denning (14:56.237)
just tell me what to do, tell me what not to do. And I hear people say that, clients say that to me. They'll be like, Greg, just black and white, man, tell me what to do, tell me what not to do, I'll do it. I'm like, nope. Like, what if they do this? Because when do you want to do it? What do you want? Why do you want that? Why would you pick up that rule? Well, that's just the way things are. I'm like, no, it isn't. Well, that's just what we learned from my parents or in our community or at our church. Like, this is how you do things. Well, think through that.

Is there ever, this came up the other day, would it, and this is a tricky one, that's why we love, I mean I love moral dilemmas and I love talking through them with our children and discussing them. Is there ever a time when dishonesty could actually be a virtue, when it would be the absolute right thing to do to lie? And.

And yes, it's a resounding yes, where before I'd be like, no, never, never a time. Could there ever possibly be a situation where stealing would be the right thing to do? And then we go crazy. Could there ever possibly be the time when killing might be the right thing to do? Like you're...

You're actually walking, and I know this is crazy, I'm introducing all these crazy ideas, but you have to start thinking like this, and you start realizing like, okay, yes, there are rules for a reason. There are standards for a reason, there's expectations for a reason, but if you only stay in that black and white paradigm, it keeps you limited and it starts to wreck your parenting. Well, right, and what happens is,

Obviously none of us come to one of those situations. We rarely are faced with one of those situations. But what happens is if we go through this process, it allows us to begin to think in that way so that we are prepared for those types of situations. And of course, you know, people are probably wondering, what would one of those examples be? And we have lots of course, but one of our favorites is a book we both read called Bonehofer and it's about Dietrich Bonehofer and he was a Christian preacher.

Rachel Denning (17:15.471)
in Nazi Germany in Berlin during World War II and then he actually became involved in a secret plot to try to assassinate Hitler. So multiple attempts. In the book it's so fascinating because he walks through this whole scenario where here he is he's this Christian man he's a leader of you know people and he's trying to work out in his soul like

the right thing for me to do at this time is to lie and to try to kill someone, right? Like this was the right course of action. Yes, I didn't think of that example. You're exactly right. Right. And so, but the problem is if we've never gone through that type of thinking, beginning with something as simple as is it right to sit on the counter? Is it okay for kids to get on the counter, right? It's a silly example, but it's that type of idea of...

A lot of people, myself included, wanted to have this black or white approach. No, we don't get on the counter. Never ever.

But life isn't like that. It's not black and white like that. And so I think we do our children a disservice when we try to have those types of rules in our home of like, yes or no, black or white, this music, that, you know, and separate everything that way instead of realizing that it's actually very complex and intermingled and lots of levels and there's actually interpretation to be involved there. And if we allow our children to go through this process, teaching them how to do it,

how to think, modeling, it actually makes them stronger and better people that are more prepared to face the real challenges of the world. Without it, I think we really are...

Rachel Denning (19:00.269)
We are limited. We're limited in our parenting. That's one of the things we want to emphasize. If we don't learn to understand this nuance of parenting, our parenting actually becomes limited. But then our children are also limited in their capability and confidence and everything else because they don't learn to think this way. One thing I've observed after working with thousands and thousands of people up close,

is that very few, very, very few people are really good at making decisions. And it comes from this thing you're talking about. We have to do it ourselves and then teach our children to think through an idea, principle, situation. Yeah, like see the whole thing and make clear decisions and then learn how to do that quickly.

But this decision making process, it can be challenging and it feels risky, it feels vulnerable. It feels overwhelming. Yes it does. Yes it does. And so you think, ah.

If it's just black and white, it's so much easier, but that's not true. Well, in a way it is true. It is easier because it makes things simpler and you have to think less about stuff. But that's a disadvantage, ultimately. Because, like we were talking before, if you're thinking about analyzing the nuances of every choice and then allowing your children to debate or persuade you, yes, there's a lot more complexity there. But what's happening on the brain level is you're literally developing

all of these different new neural connections that aren't there otherwise when you just black and white follow the rules do what I say don't talk back don't argue there's a whole world that's they're not being exposed to and neither are you in an effort to avoid the complexity of that entire process and eventually you'll come to situations that I think it's inevitable

Rachel Denning (21:07.309)
you'll come to situations that challenge the simplicity of your thinking and challenge the black and white reality. And then that's when things get very, very hard or even tragic or things unravel and fall apart or break. Well, that's why we have to be proactive about this kind of thinking and parenting. Right. I mean, we have literally seen that.

parents that have taken this black and white approach that when their children get older and start to begin to make their own decisions. Because what happens is it's almost on an intuitive level our children understand.

that there's more to it than what we're saying. And we also kind of know that too. In the back of our mind, we kind of know, oh, there's more to it, but in order to make things easy, I'm just gonna have this rule, I'm gonna be consistent, I'm gonna stick to it like that's it. I'm trying to be a good parent by just keeping these rules and enforcing them. But underlying all of that, there's this sense that there's something deeper there, there's something more, and so as your children get older and start making their own decisions, there's a sense of an incongruence.

and in a reactive way, they often end up doing the opposite of what you wanted them to do simply because they're trying to fill in the blanks, they're trying to fill in the gaps, they're trying to fill in like, well, okay, what were my parents talking about? Because I think that what they were saying wasn't entirely true. Let me try the other side. Or they react like, I was fed a crock of...

Lies. What a lie? Something. Something. Like you just, I was fed all these lies and I can think of so many examples of this where they were brought up a certain way in their community or society or church and it was very black and white. One example stands out in my mind where...

Rachel Denning (23:08.365)
these individuals, they were raised in a church environment. And the big message they heard was the people in our church are really the only good people in the world. And everybody else is just kind of evil, bad, vile sinners and whatever. On and on.

And so like Rachel was saying, at some point you're going to be exposed. You go out into life and the world. At some point you're going to be exposed to a different reality. Well, what happens is you go out and you find, man, there's really good people everywhere, all over the place. And so then you're confronted with what was implied or outwardly taught and you realize...

I was fed a bowl full of lies. Well, or at least that it wasn't completely the truth, you know? Or I was given a fraction. But I guess what I'm saying is the reaction at that point of I've been lied to, I've been deceived, I've been betrayed. I don't have the whole truth. Yeah, they were telling me all this stuff and it's just a tiny fraction of what's real or what's possible. Right.

And we do that again, we do the sense of control with the best protection we're going to protect. So we keep them in this tiny, tiny little reality because it seems so simple. So safe. Yes, I think that's right. The safety. It's all for safety. But then when you get exposed to so much more of life and thinking and understanding.

I think it causes just real anger and bitterness and resentment. Yeah, it does. Which then results in them acting and behaving in a way which ultimately is more detrimental than if they had been allowed to mentally, at least mentally, experiment with some of those ideas beforehand. Which is kind of what we end up doing. Like I think our approach is mentally walking through some of the consequences of

Rachel Denning (25:16.335)
different choices or actions or outcomes which then it doesn't require that you go through it physically when you can walk through it mentally. One example that I think of and I've seen often is this idea of not allowing your children to pick the music they listen to.

Because parents believe, and it's true, that music is very powerful. It has this effect on you, and if you listen to the wrong type of music, it can be detrimental. That's true. The challenge is they think the answer to that problem...

is to control what their children listen to. My children don't get to listen to this type of music, they don't get to make their own choices about it because it can have a detrimental or negative effect on them. And so because they're afraid of that happening, they think the safe answer is to not let them decide. When really it's the opposite. If you want your children to be able to be safe and protected from the negative music that is out in the world and other things, movies, whatever.

whatever it is, media, you have to allow them to choose while you're by their side talking through the consequences of such choices so that they can experience for themselves the differences, the outcomes, good or bad, of their choices. But if we protect them from actually making those choices, we're only weakening them. We are not giving them the strength to make their own choices and decisions by deciding for them.

And that was what I was sitting here thinking. That's what I wanted to say. I would say it like this, that when you establish the rule, then you are doing the thinking and the deciding for them. And so whatever, they're afraid of consequences or they go along to get along or they sneak it behind your back, whatever. Which happens. They haven't learned how to think through it, analyze why they would or would not want it in their life.

Rachel Denning (27:24.143)
and then make a decision themselves. The whole process that is so extremely valuable is not happening because you've made the decision and that's that. You're enforcing the law. So they stay.

underdeveloped and they're not learning to make decisions because you, man, how do I emphasize this enough? You are making decisions for them. Therefore, they are not developing their ability and skill to make decisions. So then as soon as you're gone, whether you go away on a weekend trip or you die or they move out or whatever, then you have this being.

who is totally underdeveloped and unskilled in an absolutely essential skill for life, they don't know how to do it because you didn't teach them, you didn't model for them, you didn't allow them to practice, and you decided for them so they don't know how to make decisions. And you think they're safer this way, but it's not. They're actually more naive and more at risk. What's actually happening, if you think about it metaphorically, is they're not building their own decisions.

making muscles and so when you're not there to decide for them they're literally... They're babies. What's the word? Atrophied? Yep. Their muscles are completely atrophied. They have no decision -making muscles because you didn't let them make the decisions. You didn't let them argue with you about getting on the counter or about eating in the living room or about you know listening to this song or watching this movie.

They haven't been able to practice that the whole way and so now you're not there and they're essentially starting back as babies like you said starting from the beginning because finally mom and dad aren't here to make it for me. I get to do it myself and I have to start by crawling. But they fiercely want their independence because let's say they're 18 now and they're like I'm an adult. I can decide for myself. I can do what I want.

Rachel Denning (29:24.589)
They make dumb decisions. You are. You're technically 18, but your decision making ability is still way, and in certain things is still way back in toddler stage. And parents, if I can just be so blunt here, that is your doing. That is your fault. You made decisions for them all those years, and then you release them into the wild, so to speak.

as decision -making babies. Atrophied babies. Yeah. So they're underdeveloped. And now you're like, man, I sure hope this works out. Good luck with that. Or you say, we taught you right, child. You know better. And they're like.

No, I don't. All I did was follow along because you threatened me. Right? Really what it is, I see this so often, it's like the carrot and the stick stuff. Like you had all these heavy consequences, all these heavy rules, so I followed along. But that doesn't mean I'm capable of making those decisions on my own or having when I get to a situation. In fact, it doesn't mean I can think through this and make the right decision. All I know is you had tons of rules and I followed them.

It just doesn't work out well. Right. And this can even happen, you know, because like you're saying threat. Well, yeah, a lot of times it is threat.

But we've also seen it happen in passive aggressive ways where it's, well this is how we do things. In our family, I know you'll make the right choice. All of the acts - You'll do this because you love me. Right. Or they'll use God. Right. If you love God, you'll do this thing. And that's not really how the decision making process works. And this is the challenge because we don't want our kids to make mistakes. We don't want them to mess up. We don't want them to listen to that song that swears. But if you

Rachel Denning (31:19.439)
don't allow them to truly, authentically, honestly make their own choices, then you're not really allowing the process to work. Now there is risk there. And this also doesn't mean it's completely hands off. You and I have plenty of conversations with our kids sharing our opinions, sharing our viewpoints, sharing our perspective.

our insight, our wisdom, all of those things, but ultimately, we let them decide. I think, okay, a couple absolutely critical pieces there.

Number one, it depends on the age and mental development of the child. Like the little ones aren't like, we're... I'm gonna listen to this effort, Mom. You're like, okay, you decide. Like if they're little, it's not the case. And you have to work on it for a long time so they develop the skill set and then you give them more and more autonomy to do it. Which I want to come back to with the whole parenting approach, the nuanced parenting approach. Okay. And then the other piece is...

So, Rachel, you keep saying, let them decide, let them decide. For me, my perspective, the way I would say it is like, teach them how to decide.

Like I'm not gonna be like, well, it's your choice. And like that's gonna backfire too. Cause they haven't developed this, they don't know. And they're still, their brains aren't fully developed. They don't have enough life experience. And you say, well, you know, the Dennings said, just let our kids decide. And you're like, no man, that's not what we're saying. Teach them how to decide. So we don't just say, hey, well you guys get to choose what kind of music list to. No way. We like, hey, pull up a song. Let's listen to it.

Rachel Denning (33:00.749)
and let's talk through it. And it's all deep, fundamental, philosophical stuff like, well, who do you want to be? How do you want to live life? What effect does music have on you? Let's talk through this. Let's get tons of examples. Let's really educate you on all of this so you can make a good decision. We're not just saying, well, you decide it's on you. We're deeply educating them so they can make an educated decision. And I think this ties in to,

what I wanted to emphasize again or talk about because...

You're right. If we didn't already have the foundation in place that we have in place with our children and the relationship we have with them, if they were already making poor decisions and so we took this approach of like, just pull up a song son, we're gonna talk about it. That's not gonna go over very well. Like in fact, it's gonna backfire. Especially if it's a pain point, it's something you've already been arguing or disagreeing about. It doesn't work like that. And I would add,

if they're going to government school and they're around a bunch of knuckleheads and they have their completely peer dependent. Yeah, very poor friend choices and they just care less about your environment. Bad attitudes like if all these other pieces are missing, this will also backfire because they won't want to listen to you. They won't be able to think clearly through this. So there's a lot of fun to fundamental elements that have to be in place for this to work.

Now that's not an excuse for you to just go back to the arbitrary rules and commands. You've got to figure out how to get all the other elements in place so you have a phenomenal relationship with them. They respect you. You have tons of influence.

Rachel Denning (34:48.974)
and you can make this happen. Right. So that goes back to kind of where we were starting this discussion about the nuances of parenting. This is one of the ways that you build that relationship of trust with your children is by not just having these arbitrary rules where you're like, this is how it is, because I said so, this is how we do things, this is just the rule, but allowing this more fluid approach of, okay, well, let's think through it. Yeah, I think you shouldn't get on.

on the counter and here's why. I think we shouldn't eat in the living room and here's why. I don't think you should do this and here's why. And you talk through it. And some of the ways that we've done this is, okay, here's an example of something that we can do that's fun. We call it, like you haven't passed that class. That's what we call it, you know. And it'll be something as simple as no, you can't pour your own syrup on your.

German pancake because you haven't passed the syrup pouring class type thing. And so they understand that...

You know, it's not just this arbitrary rule, but there's levels, there's skills that need to be gained in order for you to earn the privilege of doing that thing. Like, you can't eat in the living room because you haven't passed the eat in the living room class or whatever. You know what I mean? That there is a level, because otherwise, you know, it used to be, and I remember with my family and when we were newly parents, we don't eat in the living room. But then of course, mom or dad wanted to eat in the living room because, you know, we're adults, we can do whatever we want. I love eating in the living room. Right.

And so then you're eating in the living room and the kids are like, I thought we don't eat in the living room. And you're like, well, except for me, you know, I'm the parent. Instead of teaching the truth that it's about a skill. I have more of a skill set than you do of not spilling. So instead of it being a principle, it comes across as a total hypocrisy. Exactly. Exactly. So when you take this different approach, now it is a principle. And the point is you have to gain these certain skills of not spilling. And so then it's

Rachel Denning (36:54.415)
feels like something they can work towards achieving, which they can, and then once they are good at it, great, they can eat in the living room, right? And so it's this, it's a rule, it's a principle that's adjustable, it's flexible, it's changeable, it's not just hard and fast. And that is for everything. That's for everything, exactly. The thing in my mind right now is sex, right? You don't want your kids, your teen kids just go out and having sex, but man, once they're married, you want them to have an

amazing sex life because sex is a beautiful wonderful sacred thing but if it's hard sex is bad sex is bad sex is bad don't hug don't kiss don't look at the girl like are you kidding me I love looking at Rachel like wow holy guacamole right but but if it's hard don't don't don't don't don't don't don't

And then you're like, okay, now you can. It either comes across as a total hypocrisy or a massive confusion. It's like, what's going on? I was told black and white, no. And then now, like, what? It's okay. I feel guilty or is this wrong? And that's a perfect example of the principle, the timing, the skill set, like the situation. It's relative. Is sex bad or is sex good? Relative. Exactly.

looking at a naked woman good or bad? Well, there's one situation where it's very good and all the others not good, right? It's relative. Exactly. And this is true in so many instances.

the context of what we're talking about, it's true in all of these situations. And so what we're trying to teach our children, which is the opposite, I think, of what people have been doing for a very long time, we're trying to teach that it is relative and we have to learn how to think about it critically. That is a more, it's a healthier, stronger approach to parenting, which actually earns you more respect. So in the long term, you have more influence with your children because they know you don't just come.

Rachel Denning (39:08.655)
up with these rules that you're going to enforce no matter what. They better just listen to you and follow you. And they're not just questioning your sanity and hypocrisy all the time. Yes, exactly. Right. They see you as a thinking being who makes logical sense. This is one thing that our older children especially have said that, you know,

We always did what you asked because it made sense. Like you explained it in a way where we're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna do that. And then it becomes their own thing. They decide to do that. It's their own because we were able to articulate it in a way that they understood it, grasped onto the idea, and actually then owned the idea. Well, and we built this relationship of trust that if we did make an ask that we hadn't yet talked through, they'd say, you know what?

I'm gonna go with this because I know mom and dad are extremely thoughtful. They wouldn't just pull this out of a rabbit hat. I'm gonna go with it, we'll talk about it later. And they follow and they believe. Oh man, I don't know if I can emphasize this enough. If you just keep to control.

safety, black and white thinking. Ultimately, it literally looks like hypocrisy or insanity or manipulation. You just don't get it or you're a total hypocrite because life is just too complex.

And there's so many situations or circumstances that if you're actually out living, you're gonna come across so many where you have to like, no, this isn't black and white. I've got to think through this and make an educated decision. And one thing I want to bring up is how the classics, the great classic literature addresses all these things so well. And that's why it's so important to be reading yourself and reading with your kids and discussing those ideas because you're gonna come across them endlessly.

Rachel Denning (41:12.399)
that great classic literature. So well I want to just bring something up about we've mostly talked today about what's going on in your house but there's the outside world and from my observations many countries and societies are not very kid -friendly anymore.

and they're coming up with arbitrary rules in society. Like the HOA? Well, it's like everything's becoming some kind of HOA where everything's controlled and we don't want any kind of chaos or any kind of disturbance. And so you set things up and I get it, right? You want some nice places where things are nice and neat and predictable. What's interesting here in Turkey,

You just pull up Google Maps and you'll see a bunch of restaurants or hotels hotels especially and I'll say adults only and I was like what that that's different that's unique and

And what it is, it's a way to have a controlled environment. Because you shouldn't force children to behave like adults. But we often do that in society where you like, you know, a restaurant or all these other places, it has these certain standards or expectations. But when you really think about it, you just pause and kind of pull back and say, okay, let's like sitting perfectly still waiting for food. And then after it comes waiting again and just not moving and doing all that.

that like that's a very adult yeah that's an adult skill right it's an adult skill it's it's a maturity piece and and some of you are thinking well kids should be able to do that well I would disagree this is one of those things relative they should they can learn how to do that for limited periods exactly and practicing in certain places so our our approach has been we will go depending on which kids are with us

Rachel Denning (43:08.077)
we'll go and we'll practice and for the little ones, it's we talk about it, we go through it and we keep it really short. So like when we take our little ones on dates, I will call ahead to the restaurant, order the food and tell them when we'll be there. So we walk in and then they see it and they bring like something to the table for the girls to munch on and then the food's there real quick and then we eat quickly and then we pay and we leave. Which is still sometimes too long. Yeah, exactly. They're like, when's our food gonna be here? We're like, we ordered it.

20 minutes ago before we got here. Exactly. But we're trying to like get it in and out like in their framework. Right and we go to a restaurant that can handle kids and not be a big deal. But when we go to the fancy places we only take all the kids and we only take them if they have passed that class. Exactly. They've prepared they've developed and cultivated maturity but expecting a small child to sit still and

listen to a lecture, ugh, there's so many places. Like school is so dumb. It's so anti -child. What child would naturally be like, I just want to sit still here and listen to you blab on for a long time. And we just kill the kid in them. Same with church.

You go listen to some guy up there pontificating about, and maybe it's amazing for adult level, but to expect a small child just to sit still and be quiet while somebody just goes on and on, that is so - It's an older child.

It's not kid friendly. Right. It's not. It's not. And so it should be excluded. And then we wonder why our kids hate it. Yeah. And we think it's their fault. And we're like, no, kids should learn how to be quiet and sit still. Really? Really? How's that working out for you?

Rachel Denning (45:07.565)
How's that working out for everybody else that believes that stupid philosophy? It's not. Look at their kids. It's a train wreck. Look around society, you guys. See how it's working? This is one of the challenges. It's because, back to my whole...

Quandary as a new mom thinking well, you're just not supposed to get on the counter It's just not what you're supposed to do kids are supposed to sit still be quiet and so we have all these Expectations that we've picked up from society from the church from our parents from all of these other places And so we just think we've got to conform to this we have to fit and so we're trying to fit and then we're trying to make our kids fit and then we're wondering why we're all miserable When we have to learn how to be more deliberate?

We have to learn how to be more intentional and to think through all of these things. One example I think of, I mean there's many but...

you and I have been very intentional, you know, from these early days where we had these questions and we thought things like, well, why can't they get on the counter or what not? Why can't they run around in a crowd? Because they love it. Oh my gosh, they love it. And so we think through and we analyze all of these things. And so we've taken a very deliberate approach for raising our children. One of, well, one example is we've...

intentionally gone to live in places that were kid -friendly. We would live in places where they could go out and run and make noise and chop things and cut things and, you know, be destructive. Like, that was the type of environment that they were allowed to live in so that they could be kids. That's an approach we've always been intentional about. But we've always been very authentic to parenting in the same way across situations.

Rachel Denning (46:58.639)
Right? And so one, this played out for me once when I was with family members. We had, you know, all of our kids. We were outside. We were at a, it was basically in the woods, a picnic area. And there was many picnic tables. All of us were eating at, say, three or four picnic tables. And then my younger kids with other kids were standing and climbing and jumping on the picnic tables that were not being used. Now, in my... Because at a fundamental level,

Children love climbing. Exactly, they love climbing, they love jumping, they want to do all these things. They love it. And we're out in the woods, what better place for them to be doing these things than on the picnic table, especially the one that's not being used. And so, you know, obviously I already had this parenting approach and I'm constantly doing that. It's not that I don't notice what my kids are doing, I do notice and then I'm analyzing it in my own mind to decide if I need to intervene or if it's a completely appropriate activity for the situation.

This is just naturally going on for me all the time. Well in this case, the other mother decided that her children shouldn't be doing that. And so she insisted that they get off the picnic tables. Probably based on a hard and fast rule, we don't get on tables. That and or the fact that we were with some, you know, women that were older from a different generation and they probably thought maybe it wasn't appropriate. I don't know because that's another thing too. Sometimes we make decisions based off what we think other people might expect.

or in some situations that's appropriate. If you're in their house, yes, you should be. Oh, absolutely. I'm gonna make sure my children are behaving in the way that's appropriate to that environment. Or don't take your kids to that environment. Or that too, right? So anyway, so I didn't say anything even though she was insisting her kids stopped and get off, but because my concern, my primary concern is on being authentic.

and predictable in my parenting approach to my children. That's my primary concern. I'm not going to adapt my strategy or my style because of external pressure or expectation. Yes. And so in order to be authentic to myself and to be authentic with my children, I was like, I don't see anything wrong with you being on the table.

Rachel Denning (49:21.613)
Like it's just not, I would never have done that in that situation and said, you need to get off the table. So then it becomes this challenging, you know, situation where you feel, Oh, wow.

What's going on here? Is she prideful? Is she stuck up? Is she, you know, what's going on? And so we like to control. Yeah. Or there's that too. Like, oh, their kids are just out of control. Let them do whatever. And that's not really what's happening. It's this nuanced level of thinking about the situation and saying, well, in this case, it's not causing harm. It's not inappropriate.

And so I'm going to allow my children to do it, even if other people don't. And that's hard. It really is hard to do. And well, yeah, a couple of points. One is if you, because of social pressure, stop the kids, they're not going to, they're going to start losing trust for you. They won't be all articulated. They'll start losing trust. Like, wait a minute. Like,

Why is she telling us to stop right now? They're gonna be confused and they're gonna start subconsciously thinking, mom's unpredictable. Sometimes she lets us and then randomly sometimes she doesn't. I don't know what's. Right.

up and why? And in these bogus explanations, like you start undermining trust. And so then you lose influence. Especially if, because in my parenting approach, which this is true, this is true, this is how I do it, I give an explanation that makes sense to them. If I could go over there and say, you shouldn't get on the picnic tables because there's food all over it and we're going to eat, that makes complete sense to them and they're like, oh, yeah, okay. But...

Rachel Denning (51:07.469)
I had no reason. So when I don't have a reason to give, I don't feel I can make that ask. Now, for some people, they want to be able to have that parenting authority that when I ask, you do it because I ask. I don't think that that's authentic to life. Agreed. I don't think, unless you're some dictator, that doesn't happen.

So it's more authentic to have reasons that make sense to the person you're asking or to have a level of trust where you say you just have to trust me on this one. Do it please. But that only comes by doing the other approach over an extended period of time. And so if I don't have the reason to give, which I didn't have, that was my other problem. I'm like, I've got no reason. I don't know why they should be getting off the table. So if I don't have a reason, how can I give them one? Exactly.

So it is imperative for all of us to be very clear about what is okay for us and it's based on principle.

It's based on experience. It's based on a very thorough education. And you've really got to be able to examine yourself honestly. Like is it because of fear? Is that why you're doing this? Or is it because you're afraid what other people think of their judgments or prejudices? Like is it because of your own social conditioning? Like you have to be honest and be like, you know, man, I had that rule because of my own...

fears or worries or whatever it is you have to understand and then get very, very clear about what's okay for you and what's not and why and be able to articulate it in a way that kids are like, oh, okay, that makes sense. You have to be reasonable and kids are sharp. They get it. Even if they can't cognitively get it, they just feel it in their souls. Like you can just tell if like, no, that doesn't make any sense at all. Right. This is bogus. You're just coming. You're pulling crap out of your sleeve. Like what?

Rachel Denning (53:12.815)
That's garbage. And especially if it's contrary to like being a human being. Like if you start fighting, like if kids are drawn to climbing on things you should don't ever climb on anything. I've heard parents say that. Never climb on anything. Like what in the tar?

Whenever we go to parks in the United States, I mean this just kills me. It's the perfect petri dish for parenting issues, you know. And I just watch parents and they will. They'll be like, don't climb up the slide. Don't do that. And I'm like, what is the point of that?

being here. If we can't, that's what I would be thinking as a kid. If I can't do all of these things, why are we here? They want to climb up the slide. They love climbing up the slide. Every kid does. And I think what they mean is when another child is coming down the slide, don't climb up. That makes sense. You explain that to the kid and they get it. But I see this happening again and again and again where the parents are like, we don't climb up the slides. Period. We don't do that. That's a great example. It's an arbitrary rule, hard and fast, black and white.

versus the principle rule. Right, the principle is don't climb up when someone's going down. Yeah, it's fantastic. Right. If there's nobody coming down, sure, go for it. Exactly. And be careful because you're a slip back down. You're going to, so protect your teeth. Right. And if you bump your face, like you learn. That's a perfect example of a hard and fast arbitrary black and white versus let's think through this and see when does the rule apply. And so, you know, the takeaway here, it sounds like we're making your job more complicated. We're telling you, you have to analyze.

every single situation and allow your children to disagree with you and argue back. Yes, yes, yes. That is kind of what we're saying because in the long run that will make your parenting better, that will make your relationship stronger, that will help your children have more trust, more respect and it's what it's just what works in the end. Fantastic. Amen. Love you guys. Great children.