#255 Stop Calling it 'ADHD' -- It's NOT a Disorder, It's Normal

Rachel Denning (00:10.51)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your host, Greg and Rachel Denning, and we are recording for the first time the Monday recording studio, which isn't completely set up yet, but we are here. Get in there. And it is the fulfillment of a dream, a vision we had.

Well, it's here in our new newly acquired World School Family Resort in Portugal. Yeah. Which we just moved into officially yesterday. It's happening. It's still crazy. It's still chaotic. We're trying to get settled. We found food today that we could eat. We were happy to find food. And we had found some pans and stuff. So that's good. I love it. You guys, I just want to.

Remind you and encourage you. Chase your dreams. Persuade, keep working on them. Hold to them even when they seem so far off, so far away, so sometimes seemingly impossible. Just keep the vision of your dream and your ideal family life in your head. And just keep pursuing it voraciously.

Keep working towards it and watch how God and his universe will conspire in your favor.

in a timing and in a way, well, in our experience at least, the timing has almost never been what we wanted and the unique way hasn't usually been what we wanted, but it's often better. And when you look at it, you're like, oh man, that was way better. We were thinking about it all wrong or it's better than we could even have imagined. Like it just works out so well and in ways that are so unique and beautiful.

Rachel Denning (02:08.173)
wonderful you just feel like, man, somebody's watching out for us and helping us put this together and it's such a beautiful thing. But in the times where we're being directed down a path we didn't foresee, it's easy to forget like, where's this person that's supposed to be watching out for us? Right? What's going on? Why are the heavens closed? Why is the universe conspiring against me? But that's not the case.

It's either teaching us a lesson we need to learn. And that's happened so many times in our lives where we thought we were, no, like, we're good, we got to get this. And God and the universe like, no, there's a few things you need to learn first. And so we learned them and then we're ready for the thing we want. Or it comes about in a different way or in a different time. We thought, no, we want it right now. And you and I are...

quite impatient that way. We want our dreams and we want them now. But it doesn't work like that. We have to go here, we have to go there, have to have this experience, meet those people, do this thing. Well, ultimately, because ultimately what I've learned is you have to become the person who can handle that dream. Exactly. I mean, often that's what's holding us back is that we're not the people that can handle that. Because...

While we often think a dream is something dreamy and like relaxing, really dreams are work. So until you can become the person that can handle that work, you can't get the dream. Which makes sense because - Work and responsibility. That's what I was going to say. If the responsibility of the dream is so big that it would crush you, then - It often does crush you because that's happened to us too. I remember back because I'm working on my memoir right now and I'm -

Back in 2007, we're in Costa Rica. It's right before the stock market crash happens and we end up losing everything. And I remember vividly, like there was this house that was huge, 6 ,000 square feet. I wanted that house. Like I pleaded and prayed, like I had to have that house for some reason. And when we moved there, it ended up crushing us because we weren't ready. Like we weren't the people that could handle.

Rachel Denning (04:30.989)
that amount of responsibility. We thought we were because the economy was booming. Right. And so in a booming economy, everybody's doing great in a booming economy. Exactly. Right. And so, you know, it's true when you pursue the dream, but you're not ready for the dream, it does crush you. And you learn very valuable lessons. But I've learned to have a little more patience of like, okay, if you think I'm ready.

I'll go, but if I think I'm ready, then I'm all nervous. Let's question that. Exactly. I love it. But then when it happens, it's just so magical. And lots of work. I'm not going to discount it. It's magical, but it's also, I mean, even as we're sitting and speaking, there are 10 ,000 things we could be doing right now that have to get done today.

But you know, we're prioritizing this because this is important. So there's a lot of work involved in, you know, achieving your dream. And in that, I want to throw this out too, for somebody who needs to hear it. While you're pursuing your dreams, while you're doing the work to get there, while you're raising your family and, you know, maintaining good health and all those things, it's still possible. And I think absolutely necessary to keep up your good habits. You have to address.

your mind, body and spirit every single day and you have to address your relationships and your finances. It just has to be done. If you start neglecting that stuff because you're quote, too busy or I'll just set it aside for time so we can get this done. Then you end up operating in self -sabotage that ends up coming through later like a wrecking ball to your life. Well, I think that that's where the danger comes in of the dream crushing you because...

when you have this great load of responsibility to take on and you don't maintain the things that got you that far, the daily habits. That keep you well. Yeah, that keep you whole and grounded and keep you from getting overwhelmed. You know, that is all prevention for crushing. And so without it, we're literally putting ourselves in danger. So we have to maintain those habits and routines even when...

Rachel Denning (06:51.341)
Everything's in chaos like it is for us at the moment. It's so important and so good and you guys know this man. It feels so good. So so so good to be winning and succeeding. It's the happiness the joy the peace. The more I work with people and all over the world the more I realize how very very few of us enjoy mental, emotional, spiritual peace. Inner peace is rare and it is a

Priceless thing that's worth all the effort to get it really awesome. Okay, so let's disturb your piece a little bit today with today's topic and we're gonna dive into this whole craze of ADD and ADHD That we've observed now around the world is predominantly a US thing. Well, maybe a Western thing not just us but what?

So the backstory is here. A couple of weeks ago, we tried to record this episode and ended up recording to the air for about 45 minutes and then realized, oh, we lost it. It didn't record. So we are here again. We want to do it. We wanna talk about it because we feel that it's important and it's come up again even since then. I've had moms leaving me comments. And so here's the preface for it. I'm gonna explain the reel I posted on Instagram and the comments I received.

But another element that I've decided since then I want to add is related to moms. I mean, I have had, I can't even tell you how many moms say to me in comments or messages, not necessarily in person, although I've gotten a person too, that there are certain things they can't do because of their ADD. And we're going to talk all through this today. The moms.

Well, specifically related to... The moms can't do it, but... Because we've heard it referenced to, they're like, oh, hey, my husband has it or my kids have it. Well, that too. In this case, I'm referring to, like, I have my Family Charts and Systems course, and I will receive comments on Facebook about people like, oh, I would love to do something like this, but I can never stick to it or I can't implement it because of my ADD, even though my kids need this and I need it, but...

Rachel Denning (09:16.909)
My ADD. So I see it being used a lot as an excuse of why moms can't do things. And part of me, we're gonna walk through all of this from different angles today about the ADD. And we're gonna use ADD and ADHD interchangeably because they're essentially about the same. I'm gonna argue that we never use those terms. Well, I know, but in this case, we're gonna use them interchangeably. But one of the things I want to point out as we start out here,

in the beginning is part of me believes these whole quote unquote symptoms of ADD is simply a part of being human. I think at one point or another, every single one of us has experienced quote symptoms of ADHD, which I just attribute to being a cluttered, unfocused brain. Now, yes, which that's kind of the.

Default unless we're extremely deliberate about training our brain Developing our brain teaching ourselves to operate in certain ways. I think our life fault is What people call ADHD like I think that's just people. It's just chaos the other thing I've noticed either order or chaos and if you don't deliberately pursue order then you automatically get chaos and the other thing I have noticed is that I could easily say I

I have no clue one way or the other if I have ADHD. I really don't know. But sometimes I wonder if I do. And I've heard we have some friends we went to dinner with too. And he's like, sometimes I wonder if I have ADHD. I think at one point we all wonder that because our brains get confused, cluttered, because I've noticed, especially while we've been moving, I have symptoms that are more like ADHD. I left water on in a pot sitting on the counter.

and it overflowed and spilled all over. Like that's something I wouldn't usually do, but we're in the midst of moving. I left the oven on. Like there's all these things that I've done recently while we're in the chaos of moving that I could easily say, oh my gosh, it's my ADHD because I got distracted by something else. Well, no, to me, that's just a sense that that's a symptom of chaos in my environment. So the more chaos I have in my environment, the more quote ADHD I have, me personally.

Rachel Denning (11:39.789)
Same with you, same with the kids. But as I bring order and I reorder my environment, those symptoms go away because I have structure and order and predictability, but it's not because of a brain dysfunction. It's just because I've brought structure and order to my environment. And that then brings more structure and order to my brain and my ability.

function. So that's one thing I want to talk about here is that in some ways we're causing our own symptoms, like we're creating our own problems. 100%. 100%. And you know there's there's a scale on this and it's not it's not up and down like it's bad. It's it's just a scale. So you see it horizontal scale and some are more prone than others. But often it really relates to the order in their heads.

the mismanagement of thinking, but also the order in their lives and in the chaos. And you're like, what about little kids? Kids can't deliberately manage their brain. Well, often it's the chaos created by their parents or their school or their peers or whatever, or their siblings, where they don't have certainty and security and order in their world, in their life, or even too much of it. You try to become very controlling as a mother or father and there's just...

This or dad's gone all the time working or when you know when he's around whatever just unhealthy any unhealthy environment including food and sleep Is exacerbating all these things that we're then calling and here's all if I want to kind of rant here for a minute we we a DD and ADHD that last word is disorder and You're really saying oh you have a disorder. I have a disorder something's wrong with you. You're broken and

That just disturbs me when you step back and think, look at our entire society. We're going around all these adorable little kids and saying, you have a disorder, you have a disorder, you have a disorder. And they talk about an absolute violation of political correctness, but it's just a violation of, of right and wrong, man. Just go around and like, Oh, you have a disorder. Oh, you have a disorder. And, and we, we, we don't say that and we don't think about it because we use this cute little.

Rachel Denning (14:06.413)
these cute little letters, this little acronym for it. And so we can, we can throw it around. We can flip it around like, Oh, the ADHD and ADD. And we just throw on these letters and it doesn't feel wrong or offensive, but you go around and say, Oh yeah, he has a disorder. Oh, she has a disorder. Yeah. There's just something disturbing about that. It's so, it feels so wrong. And think about all the time you throw out those little letters, you're literally looking at someone and labeling them with a disorder. Now, if we break that word apart, it's actually more fitting. It is dis.

order. Your life is out of order. So if anything, there's chaos and mayhem and that's powerful because there's something you can do about that. Right. You can do something about that. If you think, oh no, this is some malady I have, there's nothing to do about it. That's helpless. That's victimism. But if you're like, no, my life is in disorder. My brain is in disorder. My food, my sleep, my relationships are in disorder.

I'm not managing my own thinking or my own emotions well. I'm not managing my thoughts and beliefs. Well, there's the catalyst. On top of that, half the population has Hunter's brain and Hunter's brain is just more active. It's a very, very good thing. That's what keeps society functioning. So half of people could be, quote, diagnosed with ADHD or whatever, but it's not a disorder. I think what you're saying, it's a very normal thing. It happens the most.

Most people, not all people, some are higher on the scale, but okay, so be it. But it's not a disorder. Now, an actual, again, we're not doctors here, and some people are gonna be critical, like, well, you're not a doctor, you don't know what you're talking about. But if you step back and look at it like an actual malady where something's really off in the brain, the percentages are tiny, they're minuscule. The same research has been done with like depression and anxiety. Those who,

actually have a true disorder. It's like 2 % or less. It's so small. But this other large group of people, because they're just mismanaging their minds and their lives. And their habits. And their habits, they get thrown in the same boat. And we throw out medication like crazy. In the United States, the doctors in the United States are drug dealers. I'm just gonna throw that down. Just say that.

Rachel Denning (16:25.293)
Right out loud, Greg. And it's not, I don't think they're malicious. I don't think they're bad. I don't think these guys are like, I'm going to go to work today. I'm going to deal drugs. They're just part of a system that is predominantly being run and funded by pharmaceutical companies. And this is purely from our observation of having lived and traveled to 50 plus countries around the world that we don't see anything. Even remotely close. In.

the other countries like is happening in the U .S. Now it is spreading, unfortunately, but - But that's because of a U .S. influence, not because it's a global problem. And often we think, oh, this is a human experience. No, it's not. Not at all. Yeah. So, I mean, I do want to go back to what you said that, yeah, there are, and like you mentioned already with the hunter and sprain, there are people that have more of a tendency to have this quote unquote disorganized brain. And, you know, I would say at least half of our children,

have that. Well, I would pause there and say I wouldn't even call it a disorganized brain. I know. If it's a natural state, if it's Hunter's brain, it's just a very active brain. Right. So like those are those are the that's the way I think a healthy way to see it is like some have a very active brain. And I don't think the reverse is passive. It's just it just operates differently. So it's not one is better than the other. And the reason we see the problem and it sees it see it so exacerbated is that somehow.

A lot of the systems in society today have been put together by what we'll call the gatherers. Well, last time when our episode that was not recorded, we were calling them the gatherer brain. Just as a contrast to the hunter brain. You know, I mean, the hunter brain, essentially the idea comes that when we were nomadic peoples, hunters and gatherers, some people had a brain that are more, are designed to really thrive with hunting, to go out and hunt.

animals and then the other brains were we can call gather brains because they they operate differently. So it's a mechanism that allowed us as a species to survive and to thrive. So it's not a bad thing. It's just different. Problem is with our society today is that we are organized in a way that that prioritizes or seems to appreciate more the gather brain. Well, it's just that they've kind of just

Rachel Denning (18:47.597)
Just roll with me here for the visual. Which maybe are more academic type brains. Yeah, the gatherer comes in and says, you know, I'm going to set up the school system in a way that just works like this. Not realizing that only works for a certain type of brain. So let's call it the gatherer brain. And it's all orderly and neat and quiet. And everyone sits still at a desk. And they think, yes.

this is what I love, this is where my brain thrives, this is the way to learn. And the hunter's brain is like, no, I need stimuli coming from all kinds of directions and sights and sounds and noises and smells and all kinds of interaction. And they thrive in that. And the brain thrives in its space. The way that we learned that so powerfully is because I am very much that.

That's why I don't think I have ADHD, even though at times I feel like I have the symptoms that people complain about. But I learn best in a quiet environment, in a library with classical music or no music, right? I cannot listen, I cannot study while listening to music with lyrics. And with our oldest daughter, I assumed homeschooling her, like it's gotta be the same. No, you can't listen to that music while you do your math. No, no, it needs to be quiet. Until finally she had...

a brain scan done and the doctor was like, no, you have Hunter's brain. So you're going to learn best at Starbucks or with the music on. And she's like, yes, exactly. And you know, I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, there is a different way here of learning. But this was from a brain specialist saying, yes, Hunter's brain. But the problem that I see, okay, first of all, there's a lot of different aspects here because I'm going to talk about the real life of students. Some of the comments I got, and one of them was like, it's good to get a diagnosis. Yes, I can agree with that.

It's good for you to have this thing that says, oh, you've got Hunter's brain. Your brain is different. So you're going to learn differently. The problem that happens that we see happening too often in society is that they say, oh, you have ADHD, which means you need medication. So you can sit still and shut up in the gather community. Right? Exactly. That's when it becomes a problem. So we have to medicate the hunters.

Rachel Denning (21:07.341)
so that they can at least passively participate in the gatherer system. Even if it kills their soul. And so the ideal solution is say, oh, you have Mender's brain. That means I'm gonna take a completely different approach with you. So what did I do? Yes, my daughter's allowed to listen to music or go to Starbucks to study because she actually thrives in that environment rather than giving her some sort of medication so that she can.

thrive in the study environment that I prefer. Right. And that was contrary to everything we believed in. We want to be studious and we're going to set up the environment for learning. And it was a brain specialist saying, no, no, no, no, don't, don't do that. It won't work for her. Just as, you know, for a gatherer to go to a chaotic place where it's noisy and distracting and try to focus doesn't work. It's the opposite is true for the hunter brain. She's like, you got to learn how to, to operate differently.

So it was cool what you said there. And I think it's important. The responsibility falls back on. Well, it falls on both, right? It's on both people. If you realize you have a hunter's brain, you're responsible for finding out ways that work for you. But if you are the parent or the teacher or the leader or whatever, and you realize that people under your influence or even the employer, if the people in your circle of influence have hunter's brain, then you have a responsibility to work with them in a different way.

They are not broken. They don't have a disorder. They just work differently. Like you said, half of our children that way. And so we, as their parents and their educators, had to find different ways that worked. We're helping them thrive. And there's just no one size fits all. It's still work. Our two youngest children, they're girls. They're currently seven and 10. And...

One of them has Hunter's brain. I have to work with her differently than I do with the other because the other one, she just likes things. She likes things a certain way. She doesn't want you touching her stuff. She doesn't want, you know, she puts her stuff in order and that's how she wants it. The other one, she's all over the place. She's got stuff everywhere. She's doing crafts morning to night. She can't even eat because she's too busy with her crafts. I just have to find a different way to work with her.

Rachel Denning (23:31.277)
But not, like, and this is partly why we're doing this episode is because I truly feel it's morally wrong for me to give her drugs to make her more like her sister. That's the problem. That's the ultimate issue here. And that is actually how this whole thing came up because I used her, I used her on my reel.

that ended up getting all of these comments. Now, I got a ton of comments. Most of them were positive. Most of them were parents who were like, yes, same thing. This happened to me. It happened to my children. I agree. But we want to go through some of the negative comments because we want to address some of these issues and these beliefs, which I believe are faulty beliefs. So essentially, the real was it was a video of her in her roller blades because she...

where's her roller blades from morning till night, zooming around. Which by the way is so good for her brain development. So good for her brain. Oh my goodness. And she was doing her studies though, she was doing her handwriting and she had decided she was gonna do her handwriting on the edge of the couch with her roller blades on, right? Standing up. Standing up. So a very, not a place I would have ever chosen to do my handwriting, but I have a different brain than her, right?

And so that was the video and then the caption basically said, you know, she's why homeschool and I'm going to read it really fast. She's the youngest of seven and if she was in school, she probably would be labeled ADHD and drugged. Now those that wording right there was part of the kickback that I got. And so we're going to talk about that. Instead, I see her as an active child with a huge imagination and lots of energy. So if she wants to wear rollerblades all day long and do her handwriting on the edge of the couch after taking a spin around the room, why not?

So what if she'd rather make dragons out of paper cups than do a science worksheet? So what if she goes, goes, goes all day long? Yeah, I know critics will say children need to learn to sit down, hold still and shut up, but why? And it goes on, but that was basically it. And so - I could go off on that last piece, because somehow we've gotten in this weird dynamic where we don't want to allow children to be children. Like my whole philosophy is let kids act their age.

Rachel Denning (25:56.525)
Right. If your seven act like a seven year old, if your three act like a three year old, what's messed up is when a seven year old acts like a three year old. Yes. That's off. Or a 13 year old acts like a seven year old. Exactly. That's absolutely unacceptable. Which I think often happens when children are not allowed to act their age. They're never allowed to go through and then grow out of that age. And so then they often revert to it later as a... Exactly.

compensate. And you know, some of the comments saying, I would add that I do think it's important to learn how to sit still and listen as a life school. That doesn't mean necessarily for hours a day. Well, yeah, that's the point, right? And we're not saying don't learn these things. Timing matters so much. I want to emphasize that a ton. Timing matters so much. Yes. At some point, every person should learn how to be still, how to listen quietly.

They should also learn how to speak up and even speak out in public. Yeah. Like at some point we all need to learn those valuable skills where, where parents and people get it so messed as they're like, my three year old needs to learn how to sit still because there's going to be times in life where that, you know, like, are you kidding me? You're ridiculous. Of course they'll learn how to do that. In fact, they'll learn how to do it naturally just over the course of life. As they get older.

they'll be able to sit still longer. That's just a natural progression of physiology. Yes. But if you're trying to know we're in a nice restaurant, our three year old needs to sit still and you're like, you're out of your flipping mind. No, I get so upset about that because it messes up the kid. When you try to insist that a child does things that are beyond.

Their age and capability. Their mental and emotional capability. Yeah. You're a mess with the kid. It goes back to what I was saying. It's often then the cause of future misbehavior because they were never allowed to act their age when they were that age. Exactly. Okay. I want to read some of these comments and we can address them. This particular caption made me pause because in my experience as an educator, we're not even allowed to label kids or even encourage that they are evaluated for ADHD and certainly not promoting medications for it. First of all,

Rachel Denning (28:15.597)
I have to respond to that because as a homeschool mom, I don't have personal experience with educators recommending that my children be tested or drugged. But the only reason I have that opinion is because of the books that I have read. I've read multiple books about education written by doctors with PhDs. So essentially, I'm trusting their opinion and their research. And from what I have read, specifically, Boys Adrift,

by Leonard Sachs, the research shows, according to what he's sharing, that most children are diagnosed or given drugs because it was first suggested by a teacher in a school setting. That's just what I know. Now, maybe this teacher, it's from in a different school district. It's not allowed. But from what I know across the country, that's generally the case. It's primarily suggested usually by a teacher.

Well, and I just want to clarify, like, this is from, well, PhDs and MDs and all kinds of stuff, but also from experience of talking to a lot of people that it just depends maybe on the school. Well, coaching clients you've had and stuff too. Yeah. The school or the school district or whatever. Like, so this, the person who's responding here is saying, Hey, I never do that. That's, that's amazing. That's wonderful. Great. Fantastic. That seems to be the exception. Yeah, exactly. It seems to be the exception across the country. It's like that a lot of teachers are.

are suggesting this and school counselors are pushing for it as well as our administrators. Okay, let's see. Some great comments. Oh, these are the good ones. I have a son, many years, could only stay for 10 minutes, but he could do his own laundry, dance and stage performances, help make dinner and hold conversations with adults. I think this is emphasizing the point that there's different strengths.

So we have to learn to, one of the best books I read, which is not about ADHD, but it's the same idea. It was a book about dyslexia, because our oldest daughter has dyslexia also. And it was called The Gift of Dyslexia. And I think that that's the approach I really like to take with something like ADHD, Hunter's Brain, is that we learn to see that it's actually a gift. It is actually a blessing. It's actually a very good, positive thing. And so the...

Rachel Denning (30:41.805)
goal here is to learn to view it in that light and see how can this act, how does this actually help my child and how can I promote it and help it and work with it rather than fight it, drug it, you know, try to get rid of it. That to me is the wrong and I would say even immoral approach. Why, why are we fighting a beautiful strength? And it's just because somehow we, we've

bought into this idea that there's one way to do things and that's kind of the gatherer way and if our kid doesn't fit in the way, boy, something's wrong with him. It's just not the case. Exactly. Right. Okay. This is the next comment. Someone's saying, I was this kid and I'm so grateful for homeschooling. But that being said, please, and this is important to talk about, please label your kid if she meets the ADHD criteria.

even without a diagnosis, telling her that she's different from her peers because, since a quirk, sincerely a quirk kid who didn't have a label until 17 and has anxiety and no secure personality because of it. So with this comment, I have mixed feelings. One, I do believe, as we mentioned before, it's important to quote unquote diagnose it so that you understand, so that as we were talking about, you learn to see it as a gift.

and to work with them. But. That would be the only reason and I would be very careful not to label the child or even tell the child except something like, oh, wow, great, you have a hunter's brain. Yeah. You have an active brain. This is wonderful. You like to be moving around while you're doing things. That's great. Yeah. And it's all positive. Emphasizing that it's the positive thing, right. But I can end this part here about without a diagnosis telling her she's different from her peers because that could be that could go two different ways, though.

I could see that as being a positive thing, but I could also see it as being a negative thing. So I think if you emphasize the positive of like, oh yeah, you do it differently than your sister and that's okay. You like to do it like this so that you're emphasizing the differences, but that they can be a positive thing rather than, oh, well you're such a mess and you're such a slob because you're not like your sister, right? That's the negative. Or you have the negative side of, oh, you're so different. Where people feel broken or weird or outcast.

Rachel Denning (33:09.741)
And again, we have to emphasize half the population has this. It manifests differently among that half, but half the population. So you don't need to single somebody out and say, oh, you have a disorder where everyone else in your class doesn't. Exactly. Right. Although I can also understand what this person is talking about here when they're saying they were a quirky kid.

who didn't have the label, so, because the label can, the label or the diagnosis can be enlightening. It can help you to understand that, oh, this is actually a thing that's not just totally unique to me, it's a thing, right, that's common to more than just me. That's helpful. And because she didn't have that, she or he didn't have it, they're saying,

that they had anxiety and no secure personality. Because if you notice that you're different from others and nobody's helping you understand why, that can be destabilizing you. And especially if you have close proximity to a gatherer. Lots of gatherers especially. But it's not lots. It may appear that way and you might, gosh, I just think differently. My brain processes differently. And that proximity is going to make you feel like the odd one out.

That's just not the reality. And so I think - But it can feel like that. It feels like that for sure. So it can be helpful to have that diagnosis, that understanding that gives a framework of like, okay, I need to approach things differently. Again, though for us, the emphasis being on the positivity of them. We love to tell our kids, all of them, all of us are different. All of us are weird in our own way, right? And that's a good thing.

Like that's what makes the world amazing. That's what makes our family amazing. That's what makes all of us unique. It's okay that we're different and that we're weird and that we're unique. All of that's awesome. And that's valuable to kind of put a stop to the comparing and the competing among peers. Cause you sit down to do some math and one kid's like, boom, done. That was easy. And the other one's like, I still don't even understand what's happening.

Rachel Denning (35:21.069)
Yeah. You take those same kids and you put them in an English class or put them out on the sports field or an active place. They're going to have different strengths. You try to give them a really challenging puzzle or problem to solve. And the other kid's like, oh yeah, that's how it's done. That's not a big deal. And then the one who was so good at math sitting there like, I don't even know how to hold this tool. Right. And so it's, it's all those different intelligences and strengths and

we do ourselves, our kids, everybody's a huge disservice if we're just trying to constantly compare them in a few certain things. Exactly, right. Okay, hold on. Say what you wanna say. I have something I wanna say about academics. Well, I was gonna touch on Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences, which I've heard since then from Jordan Peterson that it may not be entirely accurate framework, but I still...

feel that it's applicable because he's essentially talking about that there are multiple types of intelligence. Society has come to emphasize primarily academic intelligence, but there's physical intelligence and language intelligence. And I don't remember all of the different ones. Even if his framework's unfounded, it's just obvious to all of us that like there's social strengths and there's spiritual strengths and there's emotional strengths. Yeah.

I mean, I can look at each one of my children and see, oh, you're really good with people and you're really good with your hands and you're really good with art and you're really, it's like they all have a different quote unquote intelligence, a different strength that that's their primary thing. And so that's the framework that his book is basically about. Right. And it's still incredibly important that we don't label those kids as that thing. Right.

And then, oh, well, you're this one and you're that one. And I'll see parents do that. They introduce their kids that way or they talk to them that way. This is our singer and this one's our mathematician. And so the poor kid's like, oh, I can't do anything else besides that. I'm a one trick pony and I suck at everything else. And my sister is the one. It's like, no, you were drawn to that and you put the work in. And it's true with each of our kids. They were drawn to something and they put the work in for it. So they have the skillset, but it doesn't, ooh, man, this one where you're fired up.

Rachel Denning (37:44.205)
It does not mean at all that they can't thrive in other areas and should. That was the point I wanted to make about academics. We are in no way, shape or form condoning this idea that like, oh, you're better with your hands and working on things and you're better at sports. So you can just be an athlete and that's okay, son. You can be ignorant the rest of your life because you're athletic. That's absurd. This is absolutely absurd. So we still have to...

pursue a world -class education. Well, and the point is that we approach it in different ways. Coming back to some of our kids who are more of the hands -on learners or dyslexia or whatever else, we've just found different approaches. Audiobooks, for one, is a fantastic way to get an education with, you know, especially if reading or sitting still is a struggle for you. There are different ways to still approach these.

topics and to develop the academics without having to make sure you fit in the box. Our boys, two of our boys especially, are movers, man. They've got to be moving and doing. And so they throw in audiobooks. And, you know, they, well, all of our kids, all of our older kids so far have been through hundreds of some of the best books ever written across all kinds of genres. And,

while they're out moving, while they're doing things, they're actually getting brain development while they're moving. And there's actually some science behind this is really cool that, for example, if you're learning a language, you actually retain it better if you're on your feet and if you're moving around. So the best way to memorize and retain information is while you're standing up and moving. So our kids who are active with Hunter's brain, they're out kind of putting, you know, building the trampoline or working on a project and listening to a book. It's actually phenomenal, phenomenal brain development.

And if they're listening to all these great books where they might not be able to just sit down and sit still and read a book right now at this stage, we're not just going to, well, okay, he's not a reader. So I'll just send him to a trade school and he's just going to be our kind of laborer guy. Never going to be very educated. That's bogus. He's going to get a world -class education. He's just going to do it differently. Exactly. Okay. Another comment here. I have...

Rachel Denning (40:06.733)
responding to my post. I have one of those. And seeing this post today admits it being one of the tougher days where she is at max energy and movement and the guilt of not having a quote structured child is hitting me hard. It's reassuring to see this. This right here I think is the point of why we want to do an episode like this. We want to get rid of this guilt that we don't have a child that's structured or that we ourselves are not structured. And

At the same time, talking about that they're, first of all, like I started out with, we can bring more structure to the environment, which helps to bring more structure to the brain of the parent or the child. So that's one part of it. But it sounds like we're contradicting ourselves there. So we're like, we started out by saying, Hey, the reason you're struggling here is because you're pretty chaotic in your head and your life.

Mm -hmm. And so then but now on the other side we're saying don't feel guilty about not being structured We're seeing the and we're also saying accommodate this uniqueness like your work differently That's what I would say. So your structure is going to look different. Yes So you might look at one person's structure again, so the structure to bring order to a home or an office or a workspace or your head

The structure you use would look very different from a, from a gatherer to a hunter, for example. So the hunter is going to have a structure that keeps order and it's awesome. And the gatherer is going to have a structure that keeps order. They're going to look different, but they're both structured. I guess that's what I want to emphasize. So don't feel guilty or bad that you're not structured like somebody else, but yes, please find a structure that works for you and for your child.

And so even our kids that are just all over the place, we still have systems and strategies that work for them. So it brings order to their... Well, I think one example is that...

Rachel Denning (42:14.189)
I have charts for both of my youngest girls. I have charts for all my kids, but my two youngest girls, I have charts for both of them. The one daughter can, she easily self -regulates. She gets up, she marks everything off, she does, like she just does it all herself and then she adds it up and she pays herself. Like she handles it all. With the other daughter, she needs more reminders. She needs more accountability. I had to switch to paying her.

daily, sometimes twice a day to help keep her motivated and focused on what she wants to do. Not that she can't focus, because she can focus on things for hours on the things she wants to do, but then she'll forget to eat or clean up after herself or do her handwriting, right? So it just requires me to have a little more flexibility to work with

helping her get the things done that I would like her to get done, right? And it's worth re -emphasizing that one is not better than the other. Right. It's so important. Because as you're talking through that now, I'm realizing two of our daughters are just probably gatherer brain and two of our daughters are hunter brain. Yes. And it's pretty obvious. And in no way, shape or form is one better than the other. Both needed. Both has tremendous strength. But in every strength, there's some inherent weaknesses.

And so you work with the strengths and you work with the weaknesses. Right. Exactly. And you find ways that work better for that type of brain. So to those of you listening, don't just throw in the towel or throw your hands in the air. I can't do anything here. Try structures and keep trying and keep iterating, keep changing them, keep adjusting them until you find the ones that work for you and for each of your kids and for your spouse. Like

find ways that work instead of like, oh, well, I can't, so I throw it up or, oh, I feel guilty because I don't have this kind of, no, don't fall into that. Just find what works. Find what works for you. Exactly. I even think of like logistically with their desks and their space, the one daughter, she has an easier time keeping her things organized in certain ways.

Rachel Denning (44:33.837)
The other, she just needs different things. She needs bigger drawers to throw all of her stuff in. So it can be organized, but it's more of a chaotic organization and that's okay. But you know, you can still find a way to bring order to that chaos, right? Okay. Next one. This reminds me of countries we've been to. Yeah, that's true. Some countries you get there, you're like, Whoa, wow. Like, okay, let's compare Switzerland, Berlin.

Or Switzerland, right? You take Zurich, whatever. Let's take Berlin. You take Berlin, Germany, and compare it to Cairo, Egypt. Yes. Wow! Holy guacamole. And yet, Cairo functions. Right? It works. It's not neat and clean and orderly and all put together like Germany. But wow, like the chaos, it's organized chaos. It works for them.

And part of it, I think, has to do with language and brain function and all kinds of... There's so much to it. It's really rough. Okay. No one forces you to medicate your child. That's a parent's decision. True. Kind of. True, kind of, and yet... Because parents just... They just... Well, they just collapse. They just acquiesce to authority figures. Well, and I think because... If a doctor says so...

And I think because of the system, I think the problem itself is the system. And this is going back to Dr. Sachs's books. If a teacher is complaining that your child won't sit still in class and that they're a nuisance, that's a lot of pressure on a parent. Mostly social pressure. It is. You feel so stressed, you feel so bad. All you have to do is get a call from the teacher or the principal or the principal. We've had problems with your son.

Oh yeah, what do we do? No, well we recommend drugs. Okay. Like how, that's absurd. Yeah. Okay. They go on. A label of ADHD is just that, a label. Well, we actually personally have issues with labels because too many people can take labels and turn them into identity. And crutches like you talked about in the beginning. And that can then become crutches. So a label can be a negative thing. Take what you will and learn. Get support. A diagnosis doesn't have to be negative.

Rachel Denning (46:58.541)
True, it doesn't have to be negative. It can be positive to have further understanding, but if it becomes a label that limits you, that's when it's a problem. Apart from saying ADHD is a label rather than a diagnosis, I agree with this.

Rachel Denning (47:16.781)
which is slightly confusing to me. Apart from saying ADHD is a label rather than a diagnosis. So they're saying, because in my post I said she might be labeled ADHD, but that's part of the problem I'm saying here. That people are putting a label on and saying, you have ADHD, stick her on like that book by Max Lugato, right? Putting a sticker on you, you now are this way and...

which again can seem contradictory here. In a lot of ways, I feel like it's very nuanced. The difference that we're taking is, is, is nuanced. It's subtle. But even, okay, let's, let's step back. What if - Subtle and yet can be so powerful. What if physicians across the country, I think they do this better globally, but what if they did it across the country? They only handed out a diagnosis of an actual disorder when it was in

a true extreme disorder. Again, from everything I understand, from my perspective, it's a tiny percentage. And so only a tiny percentage would get the diagnosis. The rest would be like, hey, yeah, you have Hunter's brain. You have a very active brain and body and you just work differently. This would be at the teacher level.

where they just start to notice, oh, you're a little different. Maybe you're in a different group to be more active. You're with the more active learners rather than the ones that like to sit quietly and don't have you talk to them. School counselors like, oh yeah, okay, buddy, you're from the hunter's brain. This is great. You're a little hunter tribe. And it was fascinating. I just finished again, the book, Mindset last night by Carol Dweck. It's phenomenal. And she went through,

created these huge systems implemented in schools and even school districts, entire areas. And they created these little cartoons and created these little characters and they were walking kids through what the growth mindset was, what a fixed mindset was and how to approach a problem. And they started out and they did this big experiment with all these seventh graders and the responses were phenomenal. These seventh graders who had been raised in fixed mindset families or...

Rachel Denning (49:32.909)
whatever you have fixed mindsets, you're like, Oh, I loved it. I love that, that little thing. It was so powerful, brain theology or something called it. Like it helped me realize that, that I'm not broken. I'm not dumb. And I can, I can still keep working harder and figure this out and do these things. And if we did the same thing around this kind of idea in our schools and our homes like, Oh no, you just have hundreds of brain. And so you need to be more active and you need to try, try it this way or try it that way and do things differently. Actually, you might learn better on your feet.

Sitting down rolling around. Yeah, I'm letting around right now and and I think that she actually Expands on that in this comment if I hadn't decided to home educate my son would have been labeled the naughty kid always messing around But with a diagnosis, so this is how she's differentiating it. He can learn to understand himself She's using that word again semantics. I might use a different word. It's it's self -awareness

So understanding, it's not necessarily a diagnosis in my mind because I feel that that's more of a - That's for the extreme of somebody who's truly ill. But I understand what she's saying. He may want to try medication when he's older. We could go in and talk about that because I would disagree. But as we home educate, he can learn in a way that suits his needs. So not something we need to do right now. Okay, that right there is kind of pointing out the problem.

He may want to try medication when he's older, but since we home educate, he can learn in a way that suits his needs. So the medication's not necessary. That's pointing out the problem. We're literally medicating people so that they better fit into the gathering society. That means the system needs to be fixed. Not that we should medicate the people to make them fit in the system, but that we should fit the system that works with the people.

Yes, it's still recording. Just making sure. We recorded this before. We want to make sure it's still recording. OK, I really want to drive that principle home as much as I can. It's just like sometimes words are inadequate for a message. Wait, let me finish what she said here because it's also because he doesn't need to fit into a classroom and meet the needs of his peers. Just step back.

Rachel Denning (51:49.517)
Pretend like you're a visitor to Earth. Or an alien, from another planet. And you roll in, and they do things a certain way, and the people who don't do it their way, they give them medicine. It sounds like a dystopian novel when you say it like that. I'm like, put it in a movie. You create a script in your head, create this little movie that one group of people says, no, we should do things like this. And anyone who doesn't like our way,

we're going to give them this drug. So that they can do it this way. And it's not even that they can do it the way they just become compliant. It's almost like you just kind of, they're in a drug state. What are you doing? What are you doing to active kids and even hyperactive kids? You give them this drug and they're just like, like you're pulling the plug on them. And so they're, they're kind of zombie -esque and it's not working.

It does sound just like a dystopian. When you just say it like that, it sounds so... What are we doing? What are we doing? We have this system that works for some people and if it doesn't for others, let's go ahead and give them drugs and let's make them think they're broken. Let's tell them they have a disorder. And say, well, yeah, you know, you have a disorder. When for the most part, it's just strategy. It's just it's the right tactics and tools. And even more so, I think predominantly...

It's a food and sleep problem. I would say that that actually plays a huge role. All these poor kids and adults being labeled and diagnosed with the disorder. When really it's just like, dude, your sleep sucks and you're eating garbage. So yeah, eat better, sleep better. And all your attention problems and your disorder stuff is out the door. Or get a little coaching. You just need to bring some order to your thinking in your life. I mean, your life's a chaotic mess.

I get to work with tons of people across continents and I just sit down and start talking through it. I'm like, dude, no wonder you're stressed out of your mind. Turn off all the notifications on your phone. That'll help. Your business is struggling, your family is struggling, your marriage is struggling. Well, let's look at it. And again, it's tons of notifications, tons of distractions. It's going here, going there, going there, doing this. And people just never learned how to be effective. More deliberate. And productive. So it's like, oh, yeah.

Rachel Denning (54:11.181)
Maybe I need some medication. No, dude, you need some better habits. Right. Okay. Well, let me read this comment because this, this one's good. It's going to get you going here. I would really appreciate you changing your wording. In fact, it said labeled and drugged. I have three diagnosed ADHD kids who are homeschooled and still require medication to help them in not just schoolwork, but in everyday life. The word drugged.

isn't even close to correct as many kids and adults need these drugs to function. Oh my gosh. This comment has 114 likes. What? Yes. Dude, people are drinking the drugged Kool -Aid. See, so when I hear people say that they have, they're just drinking the Kool -Aid. Just full on drinking the Kool -Aid. They believe what the authority says. This comes from having spent, I would say,

at least half of our married life, half of our life raising children outside of the United States and having traveled to 50, you're at like 55 plus countries. This comes from that sort of perspective of saying, this doesn't happen except in the U S and maybe the UK ish. This is where it's happening and it's unique and it's a little strange. And honestly, I going back to, I,

This is my sincere opinion based off a lot of thought and research and because they're, you know, 10 years ago we would have never done a post like this. No, we don't. We don't understand this topic enough, but I feel like we've got a bit of a grasp on it. It feels like a dystopian novel. We need medication. Adults and children need medication to operate in daily life. 100 years ago, a thousand years ago.

Can you imagine them saying that or believing that 50 years ago, even 50 years ago, 30, gosh, it's so messed up. And so, yes, I'm going to stand by the word drugged and I'm going to stand by their drug dealers. Prove me wrong. They're drug dealers and these, these people are being drugged and no way in hell do people need to be drugged in order to function in school or society. That is so screwed up. And here's how I know that.

Rachel Denning (56:33.997)
because I went through this process of figuring out systems and strategies and habits. And this is literally what I do for a living. I get to help people every single day to bring structure and order to their heads and their hearts and their lives. And I see the results. So I have the results and results don't lie. So what are my credentials? Results. And when I give these strategies to people from all walks of life, even ones who have been drugged,

They realize, oh, okay, I don't need to be drug to function. I need some better strategies. I need some better tools and tips and tactics. I need to clean up my diet again. Gosh. So this woman's like totally believing she's probably taking drugs. Her three kids like, no, they need drugs to function. Bogus. What, what? And I would love to coach this family. Like genuinely sincerely would love to coach this family. And be like, okay, here's what needs to happen.

Let's do this with your food and walk through everything with their food. Let's do this with your sleep pattern. Let's do this with your daily routines and rituals. Let's do these activities. Watch what happens. And most of the problems just go away on their own by correcting the, the input of garbage and filth. And then with a few strategies, your charts and systems that you share, like that, the whole world would just completely different. But if you don't know how to eat better, sleep better and organize your life, then you think,

No, these kids need drugs in order to function. Right. Well, no, that's just an epic failure on bringing order and systems and structure. Well, and I hate to bring this up, but I do feel that it is a legitimate concern. And that is the fact that sometimes kids need drugs and moms need drugs to function because moms can't handle it without them. They haven't learned how to deal with or handle or work with their kids.

when their kids aren't drugged. And so it feels overwhelming and stressing to them when the reality is they just need to gain the capability, like we talked about before with dreams. It's hard work to raise kids and it's gonna be hard work to raise kids that are active and energetic and filled with chaos. And you have to get good skills. You have to take on that responsibility or it will crush you. You have to raise your capability in order to be able to handle it and to do it.

Rachel Denning (58:59.853)
I think ultimately that's what's missing. Exactly. People want the easy answer and the easy answer for too many is to take the medication. It's the same thing. It's like, oh, I have to take a pill to lose weight because man, I tried and I tried and tried and I got to take a pill. No, you got to figure it out. So, guys, thanks for listening. I know this is a sacred cow for a lot of people and it gets really sensitive and we just shut down your cow. But think through this, work through it, find strategies, increase your feasibility and...

Again, that's what we're here for. That's why we have the master class for the men, probably she has the 20 day challenge for women and that group. This is what we do. Love you guys, thanks for listening.

Rachel Denning (59:53.453)
you