#262 Improve Communication with Your Spouse & Process Emotions to Build an Extraordinary Life & Marriage

Rachel Denning (00:10.51)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the extraordinary Family Night podcast. We are your host, Greg, and this is Benning. And today we are combining two awesome questions that came in from two wives, really around the deep inner workings of communication between husbands and wives, which essentially is between men and women. And it's quite... How shall we...

critical? Well, absolutely critical because everything in your marriage and your family dynamics revolves around communication. So it's absolutely critical. But it's also quite

I want to say complicated, but then once you understand it, it's quite simple. Right. You're right. It is simple, but it is also complicated. When you have the understanding, it becomes very simple, but it still can be very complicated. Especially, especially if you don't have the understanding because it literally feels, and I remember feeling this early on. Same. It literally feels baffling. You're just like, I don't even know if we're talking about the same thing.

Is this the same language? Is this what in the world? Are you from a different planet? This is out there. And yet here's the greatest irony that we have to keep pointing out again and again and again. Men and women are different. And if you say that to any couple or you say it to the couples who wrote in these questions, they're like, well, yeah, duh. Of course men and women are different. And yet here's the irony and the challenge.

We acknowledge verbally that men and women are different, but then when we get into the nitty gritty of working things out, we expect a similar behavior to our own. We expect a similar reaction. We expect that our spouse would think and act and respond like I would. Meaning that whatever I'm saying, they're going to interpret it the way I would interpret it. And if they're going to like, if we're, if we're having a conversation.

Rachel Denning (02:24.11)
Say something they should respond the way I would respond. Right. And understand it the way I would understand it. What do you mean you don't understand it that way? What do you mean that that's confusing to you? Why are you being so sensitive? What's the problem here? Right. Why are you taking this personally? And so without realizing it, we acknowledge out loud, yeah, men and women are different. But then in the moment, we assume we're the same. We assume they're the same. Or.

we're expecting to be saying we get all bent out of shape and frustrated and upset like why why are Rachel why are you responding differently to this than I would exactly and in that moment you have to stop me like because she's a woman well okay so going back to what you were saying there because we love to use this pardon my voice I've been sick and so my voice is not back to normal yet but we love to use this wheel as a representation of

family life, holistic, you know, holistic, extraordinary life. You think of it like a wheel. In the middle of the wheel is a spoke. Is the hub. The hub. Right. The spokes coming out from the hub. Sorry, thank you. And the spokes come out from the hub. The center. If you want to have a great life, you have to have a strong hub and for a great life, the center, that hub is your merit.

Now within that marriage, you'd like to say, talk about that there's the linchpin in the middle. And the linchpin is, I would say ultimately is two parts. It's sex and communication. That's the linchpin. I would just say more sex. I know that's because you're a man and that's what you would say. But for a woman, especially she has to have that communication piece. You're right. And she has to have a man who knows how to communicate. That is intimacy for her. That is intimacy for her.

So but you need both you can't just a lot of women and you know We're gonna talk about the differences between men and women a lot of women want their men to just be happy with Communication as intimacy and have that be enough and they think well why it why isn't that enough for you? That's all I need Not understanding that she also does need the sex even if she doesn't think she does or want it as much

Rachel Denning (04:45.646)
So you need both pieces. On the other side where men are like, can't we just have sex every day? Because that's just what I need to feel connected to you. He needs the communication. I want you to talk to you. And so I like to think of sex and communication as like a ring, two parts of a ring that connected together. They make a circle, a hole, and that it's like going around and around and around. We need, you need sex. I need communication. You need communication. I need sex. As long as we continue to maintain that connection,

That right there is the linchpin of our marriage. And so, and because in one of the questions she referred to, like, this is affecting how I interact with my kids. This is affecting me being able to operate. I totally get that. That is, that is real. Problems in our relationships can become all consuming. And at least for us, they are all consuming until they were our result. Now you and I have gotten really good at just resolving it.

We don't let something go on for longer than a day because we know how disruptive it is. We've also gained the tools to be able to resolve things quickly so they don't have to go on longer than a day. It used to be a week or you know. Well and you guys will I'm sure if you're married or in a relationship you can relate to this one. It's it is so disruptive to everything. It's distracting. You can't think about it. It's all consuming. You're not very focused. You're not very productive. You're edgy. You're grumpier with the kids. React.

and you make decisions more poorly when you're upset. You can't think or focus on business. It's this thorn in your side. And what kills me and baffles me is people will leave it there for days and then weeks or months or years. And they'll finally come to us like, we're gonna struggle with the same thing for years. Take out the thorn. How have you let this go on for years?

Like, well, every time we try to bring it up, it ends up in a big ugly fight. And yeah, but it still has to be addressed. You can't you can't just leave it there and protect it up and pretend it's not there and let it fester. Nobody ever can touch that or go near that. And everybody's defensive and edgy and and, you know, real hypersensitive. Like, what don't don't you dare come near the thorn where the reality is?

Rachel Denning (07:07.918)
You got to step in there and do the painful work to get it out and man it's gonna hurt especially because if you've left it in there a while it probably is Like grown and yeah, it's an ingrown thorn now and you're you're gonna have to yank There's gonna be some pain but then afterwards there's gonna be some healing and it is a Privilege for me and so rewarding and fulfilling when I get to work with couples

and help them remove those thorns. And it's painful and uncomfortable. But then within weeks, they're coming to me saying things like our marriage has never been this good. We've never been able to even get to this level. And it's because the thorn was preventing closeness and intimacy. Everything was getting bumped all the time and it hurts. So you got to get those babies out. So we have two questions, two different scenarios. We could do...

podcast on each of them, but I think they relate. And so we want to just - Well, they're ultimately both interconnected to this idea that we're talking about. Learning to identify those thorns and remove them within the context of realizing that men and women are different. And so we have to have understanding of the opposite sex and they have to have understanding of us so that we can be aware of what is happening so we can actually get -

to the source of the problem, which are the thorns that each of us have. So they can be removed, so it can be healed, so we can move forward in peace and love and intimacy and then be united as this strong couple so that we can go on to create the extraordinary life we want. Without that, you and I could not, we would not have what we have together and we could not create what we have because like we mentioned before,

Without that unity, that closeness, that intimacy, our energy or attention would be distracted and divided and unfocused. Like we just could not do what we've done with our life and achieved all the things we have if we did not have the tools to heal our wounds and to remain close and intimate with each other. That is the power of the life we've created. It would kill our goals and dreams. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (09:34.734)
and it'd be practically impossible. Or we'd set up separating, dividing goals and dreams. Exactly. The kids would feel it, the business would suffer, right? All of it. It's so powerful. Because again, everything is a spoke off of that marriage. And so how smoothly your life rolls forward in this wheel analogy is going to be completely dependent upon the strength of that hub. And so that's...

where I think these questions intersect and is that we're talking about strengthening that hub through these tools. And I do want to point out and emphasize here and hopefully I remember to emphasize it again. Change can come very quickly once you realize that a lot of the source of contention or frustration or irritation is just a misunderstanding of your spouse. So let's say I just never cognitively realize

that's a very feminine characteristic, Rachel's being a woman and as a woman that I want her to be because I didn't marry a man. I don't want a roommate. And that's where we get into trouble is like, if I wanted a wife, not a buddy. Yeah, exactly. But we keep, I keep expecting her to act like a buddy would. I didn't marry a buddy and I don't want a buddy. I had roommates. I don't want roommates. I want a wife.

Well, if I want a wife, then I married a woman and I have to know that as a woman, she's going to think and act and behave differently and have different desires and perspectives and inputs and reactions. And so many problems will just be prevented by me going, well, that's just, that's just her being a woman. I don't have to get all worked up and frustrated and keep wishing she weren't like that or would do things differently. She's just being a woman and I want her to be a woman, even though I don't.

I don't get that. I don't do that. You don't necessarily like it. I don't like that thing either because that's not what I would do as a man, but I don't want her to be a man. Well, I know for me, a huge piece of me understanding you and therefore understanding an important part of relationships, specifically when it comes to sex, is there was a time, and I've shared my story many times, especially in all of our podcast episodes about sex, but...

Rachel Denning (11:59.95)
There was a time when I literally just felt like, why, why, why do we have to have sex? I could literally go the rest of my life without sex. Now this is of course when I had small children and I was touched out, you know, from that perspective, I thought, I'm done, like I'm good. We have enough kids, we're good to go here. Like, let's just be done. Especially because my viewpoint made it feel like it was another thing on my to -do list, right?

But when I learned to understand your perspective and I was able to connect it to something I deeply understood, which was myself and my need for communication with you and that sort of intimacy. And I thought, wow, what if I went to Greg and I wanted to talk to him or I wanted to have him listen to me and he just said, I'm too tired. I've talked to the kids today. I've been at work all day and I've been talking to people.

I just can't talk to you, you know? When I made that connection that your desire for sex was like my desire for talking with you or to you or having you listen to me, it changed everything for me. Like I suddenly then understood, okay, it's like that for him. If it was the other way around, I wouldn't want him giving excuses or I wouldn't, I would not be okay in the least going a week.

or 10 days or a month without talking. Or the rest of your life. Or the rest of my life. I could go for the rest of our life without me sitting here listening while you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and

that keeps us connected with each other. You make sacrifices for me, I make sacrifices for you, and in so doing, our intimacy is deeper because of it. And we learn and grow and we develop another part of ourselves. Now sex is an amazing thing. I love sex, okay? It's great. But I had to learn how to first want to say yes to sex because it mattered to you in order to get to a point where it was...

Rachel Denning (14:22.126)
something I also wanted. I think it's the same for men too. Like they first have to understand. I had to realize, I had to realize how significant and important and meaningful and connective it was for me just to listen to you. Not like talk. Not try to solve my problems. Well you shouldn't feel like that. Or you could just do this. Why are you worried about that? It's not even an issue. That's not listening. Me just listening.

just being engaged and just listening, it means so much to you. And as soon as I realized that and resolved it, I guess it took me a while. I had to keep remembering, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then finally it like stuck. okay, now I got it. Well, and we've even developed to the point where you can ask, you can say, is this a listening moment or you want solution moment? And I'm like, I just want you to listen or no, actually I want some answers right now.

But we're able to understand what's going on so we can talk about it rather than just continuing to be confused because you don't know what's going on at the moment. And so because I get a coach almost every day, I spend many hours, many, many, many, many hours listening to people and solving problems. So I could easily be like, I am listening. I've been listening to people.

for hours, Rachel, I'm just done listening. I can't sit here and listen to you. That would be, and again, there's, there have been times when I was, I felt that way and I'm tempted to respond that way. But I realized, no, this, this means a ton to her. This means so much to her. So I'm going to listen some more. And all I had to do was increase my own capacity. So I can listen for hours and then listen to the kids.

and then listen to Rachel and then listen to the other kids and then listen to Rachel some more and I can just keep listening and be fully engaged. I don't have to check out. I'll sit there and think about other happy places while I try to keep a poker face. I can be fully engaged because I've just all I've done is increased my capacity to do more and when I realized because again I'm just trying to walk through this. It's important to her. I have to be better at it. Having that understanding of course is key to that of

Rachel Denning (16:50.126)
Key to you wanting to gain that capacity, because it's one thing to be like, well, I could do that, but if you have no motivation to do it. So having the understanding of how much it means to me and how important it is, and then realizing when you put it into practice that it makes a difference in our relationship, those are ultimately the things that make the difference. When we learn to understand each other and we learn to give,

give what the other person needs. Yes, it's reciprocating. I'm willing to give sex because I know it's something you want and need. You're willing to listen to me even if you don't feel like it because you know it's something I want and need. When we're willing to give that to each other, that's the foundation of intimacy. Then there's a little tricky piece here. I want to say that you can't do it with strings attached. Like, well, I'll listen if I get sex.

Because then that's pretty shallow. I'm not listening with the intent to meet Rachel's needs. I'm listening with the intent of having sex. But it's also not entirely unattached. Because if I do meet your needs consistently and repeatedly, and then you're just like, well, good. I'm fulfilled. And good night.

good night, good night, and just on and on and on. I'm like, I listen like crazy, she feels totally fulfilled and satisfied. She thinks everything's great in America and she just goes to bed. And I'm like, wait a minute, I'm fulfilled. Like I want to make love to you more often. Like what's going on? And so it's hard because you want to say, you want to, you have to do it without strings attached, but they're not entirely. because if.

if there were no strings attached, then you wouldn't be married. Right, exactly. Because marriage is essentially a sexual contract. And so, ultimately, well, sexual contract because it's a contract where you are saying, I get to have sex with this person and everything else that goes along with it, like building an entire life with this person. So there are strings attached there. We can't escape from that. And often when I hear people talk about certain things, I'm like,

Rachel Denning (19:10.222)
Why are you married then? You should just have a roommate. You know, I've literally read comments or heard people say like, men should just learn to deal with it. To control themselves and they don't need sex. Why are you married then? You want to be married to a man but not expect to have sex. That just makes no sense to me. You want a roommate. Same with a man. Like you want to be married to a woman but you don't want to spend any time listening to her or investing in her. What's the point, dude? Yeah.

Besides the sex. You don't want her to be sensitive and cry and be a woman. Well, sounds like you want a roommate. Or a prostitute. Yeah, exactly. Who doesn't care at all. And has no, makes no requirements of you on his emotional side. No demands, no commitments, no responsibilities. Right. And is totally disconnected and then that's just emptiness. It's basically prostitution. Yeah. So.

What do we do? And how do we get there? That's the question. Well, let's read the questions, I guess, and respond to them. Yeah. Okay. I'll read this one first. Actually, it's from an awesome wife, so maybe you should read it. It's just like coming from a woman. Okay. What do you do when your husband tells you that you need to get a backbone and manage your own emotions? When you tell him...

that the demeaning way he looks at you is hurtful during a disagreement. Okay, so pause right there. Because I can relate to this, especially early on in our marriage. I think with us, there were some glances, but mostly you would get after me about my tone. I'll still get after you about your tone. I just said what I was thinking. It's the way you said it. I'm like, babe, I didn't say it any way. And I'm like, yes you did. I just said it.

These are the exact words that need to be said. How dare you? I'm like, what? I just I just said the words like what? I just said I don't know how to say it differently. I didn't intend my tone to be rude. And you were sensitive to that. And that's a funny thing because I still feel that way. I still feel that I am very sensitive to the different tones that you have or use. And maybe it's something you just don't notice or aren't aware of. But to me, they're very distinguishable.

Rachel Denning (21:36.014)
And maybe, maybe it's more feminine masculine on a masculine side. I don't know that we're as attuned to tone. Because, you know, my my toe might be hurting me at the moment. Yeah, just just do that. And just because my my toe hurts or I'm angry or whatever, and I just say it and and I think among men, you know, we're going to be less sensitive to that. And you just said.

And it might rub you a little on like, that was a little gruff, but okay, whatever. But it's, you know, from my perception to a woman, you're like, whoa, mister, that tone is unacceptable. So that was our experience. And I remember being frustrated that you were so sensitive about tone. Because in my mind, I'm like, I didn't mean anything. I wasn't being angry. I'm not upset. I just was being efficient with my words. And I just said it.

And so in this case, you know, he's saying he maybe doesn't realize he gave the look maybe it's subconscious or maybe it was a look of annoyance, whatever. And there's more in the question we'll get to but he gives her the look and she's like, Hey, that look is not okay. And his response, you know, very, very masculine. Get a backbone, control your emotions.

That is like, that's so masculine. Classic men are from Mars, women are from Venus. And you might, you could pull that off with other men and be like, hey bro, get a backbone, get your emotions done and checked. Like there's work to be done. You can't sit around here being all sensitive about it. Let's go. That's how you'd speak to other men. But I think it's foolish.

and short sighted to say those kinds of things to your wife. Yes, absolutely. Not that, I don't want to be misunderstood here. It's not that women couldn't and don't need emotional mastery. We all do. All of us need more emotional mastery. We become more emotionally mature and more emotionally developed. We need more emotional control. And if this was a workplace scenario, that could be entirely appropriate.

Rachel Denning (24:04.782)
But the point is, this is an interaction between a man and a wife. That's the point. And it is going to be different because when I first read this, one of my thoughts was, dude, did you marry a man or a woman? Like, which do you want here? If you married a woman, and you want to be married to a woman, you want to have a wife like we talked about, it's going to be different than if you have a roommate or a buddy. And so you cannot treat each other...

in the same way that you would treat your roommate, right? So yeah. We gotta pull that off. So maybe some guys, he works construction or whatever. He's just working in a field where, and maybe he's the boss, maybe he's the owner, maybe he's the, whatever, he's a business owner, entrepreneur, and he can speak to his male employees.

And occasionally sometimes speak to female employees like that because you're right in the workplace, you're like, hey, this thing's gotta get done. And you speak and you're like, okay, that works. And then you have the misunderstanding to come home and say, well, I'll use that same strategy at home with my wife. Right. Nope. It doesn't work. Yes. Okay. So that's our first thoughts about that. He was just trying to give me a firm no in response to something I wanted to discuss.

But the way he looked at me was cold and intense. It's hard to describe. So I was just trying to communicate to him that he can still disagree, but do it in a pleasant, loving manner. I know he's super defensive because of feeling like he's given in in the past. Wait, let's pause. Let's pause and kind of go piece by piece. We don't know the circumstances.

of the whole scenario. I think we just had a little bit of it. But we can understand because there's times when you want to have a firm no.

Rachel Denning (26:10.67)
And yet...

It's pretty rare that I have a firm no with you. Well, especially as it relates to not wanting to talk about something. Right. Exactly. She's like, I just want to talk about it. And he's like, no, we're not talking about this. I don't think I will ever do that or have done that for years or will ever do that to you. If you want to talk about something, I'll never be like, Rachel.

We are not talking about that. Because from my perspective now in our own marriage, our own experience, I'm working with thousands of people. At least from my point of view, I don't, when is there ever a time where I'm going to just drop the hammer and say, no, we're not talking about that. Well, and that's because of what we were referring to before, as far as getting rid of the thorns and allowing healing. We have learned through experience.

And I would say early on there were definitely things that were avoided, things that we didn't bring up. But over time we've learned that if there are those types of things, they should be brought up. They should be talked through. That thorn needs to come out. This I think is a perfect example of she is getting close to something that's a thorn and it feels uncomfortable. It feels painful even. And so the response is no.

I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to go there because it's painful. And that makes sense. Or, or some other reason. There may be another reason like, Hey, we talked about it, whatever. Why do you keep bringing it up? But the underlying thing there, this is huge. This is massive. Ladies and gentlemen, if there is a, an ongoing disagreement and your strategy is to not talk about it,

Rachel Denning (28:07.534)
Please know it will not go away. And it just creates resentment and a wedge between you. So let's say Rachel wants something and I don't want that thing. And so my strategy is no, we're not talking about it. No, don't bring it up. No, stop. We already know. I already told you. And that's very dictatorial to me. This comes across like a tyrant.

Okay, even a tyrant baby. Like it just, and I don't know the specific instance of this thing. So I'm not referring to him exactly, cause I don't know the details, but there are many men who are tyrant babies. They lack emotional maturity and just pure manliness as I see it to say, okay, if you really disagree, we have to talk to you.

We're not going to not talk about it. Not talking about it is like, it's so immature. It for me is like, you have a grown man's like, we're not talking about that. Like, okay, little baby, little baby man. And what, what in the world? No, we're going to talk about it. Well, yeah, but she wants to end. Let's talk about it. Let's talk to this whole thing. Let's go through every bit of it. So she feels totally understood. I feel understood.

We put the whole thing out there. And maybe after all of that, maybe we still don't agree, but it's all there. I was going to say, from my perspective, as far as I can remember, in situations like this, there have been things that we've stopped talking about because we couldn't find a resolution, per se. And so that's different than not talking about it. And in those terms, what I'm referring to in our case is that.

there would be things that we talked through, we couldn't agree on something. One, I'm remembering our house in Georgia. Like we couldn't decide if we should buy it or not buy it. And over time, after we had talked about it, I realized the only solution was to just let it go until it came to a point where we had to make a real decision. And that happened when we decided to move to Portugal and realized, yeah, we should buy it and rent it out. And then the decision was made, right? Like it was a thing that...

Rachel Denning (30:28.43)
ended up resolving itself. But we had talked through it a lot. We avoided talking about it. It was because we had talked about it, we just couldn't come to a conclusion. But if you never talk about it, you never bring it up, you never address it, then it doesn't allow for either of you to get the perspective of the other about how they view it, what they want from it. So yeah, if there are things that just are not like they're...

taboo, that is something, especially if it's chronic, it's going on for a long time. It seems, I would say, wrong to say you should be pushing on it, but in reality, you should, because we need to be resolving these problems. We need to be moving forward in the intimacy of our relationship, and that can't happen when there's things that are...

Off the table. Yeah, we can't talk about it. At least from my perspective, I don't think there's anything that should be completely off topic. Like that topic is not off topic. That is a topic that's taboo. Like you can't talk about it. And I think the same is true for our children. I don't want my children ever think, man, I can never talk to my dad about that. That's just...

That's just smallness on my part. I want my kids to be able to talk to me about anything and everything and the same between me and you Rachel. We've got to be able to talk about everything. Now that being said, I do feel that sometimes there's a strategy or an approach that because sometimes it's like this hierarchy or these steps like you have to get certain things in place before you can go to that place. And so it may be that you need to

address other things first or talk about other things first so that then becomes part of the toolbox of allowing you to then talk about this thing that's currently off the table. And that can happen through personal development and growth of individuals. Maybe it happens by having that conversation. Like, I want to be able to talk about anything with you. Like, maybe you start there not even having to reference this thing, but just saying,

Rachel Denning (32:55.406)
that's the type of relationship I want with you. And so there sometimes are these, you know, stepping stones you have to put in place first that helps you to get to being able to have that conversation. Absolutely. So powerful. But, okay, so we go back here to the fact that he gave this cold and intense look. Now, that's why in my mind, part of it is that this is, you know,

In essence for him a thorn in the flesh. He has something he's trying to protect and part of this is my psychoanalysis part of that protection is it's like an animal staring you down like It's like our dogs with their bones. Like don't you dare? Push this because I'm gonna protect this or I've already told you What what the kid well this rings tyrannical for yeah?

Or, and this could be a misinterpretation, it could be the reality. I know for me, if I feel that you're being demeaning to me, whether it's intentional or not, that is like crushing. For you to behave in a way that makes me feel like you think I'm not as smart or not as intelligent or not as capable, even though in some things obviously I'm not. Like there are some things I just cannot do that you can do.

But if you make me feel like I'm this little child wife, less than that. So maybe that's going on there somehow. I've never been a woman, but I would think that's a pretty feminine, pretty common feminine trait that women do not want to be like kept down or disapproved of or made to believe that they're just second class. They're just not good enough or smart enough or whatever.

Right, exactly. And it's pretty, again, pretty immature and... Well, because men and women have... It's degrading. If somebody... So you're physically weaker than I am. Right. We have different capabilities. And if I taunt you about that or I ridicule you because you're weaker, that's very petty of me. Even though it's true. You're weaker than I am. Right. But...

Rachel Denning (35:20.206)
to like, well, to taunt you or tease you or ridicule you or just treat you less than because you are weaker than me. That's just petty. Yeah. And so it's essentially recognizing that we are different, but our differences don't make us unequal. We're still equal. We're equal, but we're equal in different ways, different capabilities. I can do things that you can't do and vice versa, but it doesn't mean that one of us is better than the other. We're just different. And so I think it's...

that's an important part of a relationship is to recognize we were equally yoked and we're both bringing value to the relationship, to the family, to the economy, whatever. Let's walk through this a little bit though, because there are scenarios where around something that is deeply part of the family, like finances, right? Finances are part of a family life.

And it's often the case that one spouse knows significantly more than the other about finances. And one is, for lack of a better word, one is quite ignorant about finances. And that can be chronically frustrating. And they're like, well, why this or why are you doing that? And then there's confusion and there's disagreement and you're just like, And then that's where those looks might come out or those comments or those statements.

And so a practical solution here is to have like read books together about like if there's this chronic frustration around finances, for example, like, okay, we need to read some books together. Let's get on the same page. Let's go through these and let's get at least a common ground and a basic vocabulary and understanding where we can talk about this now because you've increased your understanding of this topic.

Yeah, and I don't, maybe this is just me and my personality, but I would never want to remain in that ignorance. If this was something that was in a part of our life, like finances, I would never just remain totally ignorant of it and just be like, well, you know, that's you and I don't know anything. If I was, if I was regularly feeling inferior to you in that area, I would personally be studying and learning about it so I could keep up with you. Right.

Rachel Denning (37:47.054)
Like, and that just might be my personality, but I view that as a strength. Like that's something you should do. To me, that just makes sense. If it's a part of your life, if it's a sore spot, especially, and it's causing you contention or it's causing you to feel less than, we'll do something about it then. Like, and you can go to your spouse and say, well, what are the books that you've read or the websites or the podcast? So I can understand more about this and I can.

have a better conversation with you about it. Like I want to understand, I want to learn and have that vulnerability to admit you don't know, but that you want to learn. Yeah. And then this comes down to, cause immediately I hear people saying, yeah, but I have a list of books I'm working on. And maybe most people finish a book a month at best, maybe a book every other month. So if you're getting six books a year,

and you have a stack of 20 books you need to read, that's a long, long approach. It's gonna take a lot of time. So you just have to strategize and be like, no, I'm gonna do a book a week. And I know you're busy, we're all busy. And if we prioritize, again, if this is disrupting your marriage, especially, then you prioritize it. And even when I work with couples, they're at the brink of divorce, and I'm like, what in the?

world are you doing spending all this time on social media and hanging out with friends and doing this and doing that and these you're working on this project i'm like hello like just recently you told me you're on the brink of divorce and then now you tell me you spent the whole week working on your fun little project like are you kidding me like this is your project yeah work on your marriage and if if there's this pain in between you then this becomes your priority exactly like i'm gonna devour everything i get my hands on i would read a book a day if

If there was just lack of knowledge that was keeping a gap between the two of us. Exactly. If you and I were off and I'm like, this is this thing's keeping me off. I'm going to become an expert in a week. I'm not joking. I'm not exaggerating. I would do a book a day. I would set aside everything. I would get up early, stay up late. I prioritize. I'm going to make this an absolute priority to get this fixed. And but most of us like, yeah, it's been really frustrating for years. I should probably read a book on it. And eight months later, you're like,

Rachel Denning (40:08.366)
Yeah, I'm about halfway through the first book. You're killing me. You're killing your own marriage. Let's go. And that is something we definitely do well. We do prioritize these types of things and we get them done. We don't just talk about it and think about it and say, that'd be great. We actually do it. Here's another strategy. As I'm thinking through, what would I do in these scenarios, then I think, I know what I would do. And then because I've worked with enough people now, I hear them say, well, how would I do that? I'm busy. I can't just...

take the day off and read. And I learned this along the way. Like when, when there's a disaster, when there's an emergency, when there's an urgency, when something just goes totally off, all of a sudden you're able to take a day off or a week off and the whole world doesn't fall apart. If your house flooded and you had to go fix it, like you would be able to take off and go fix it. You'd be like, Hey guys, you know, the party's probably house flooded. I got to take a couple of days off of work.

I got this project I was working on, my workouts, I got to set aside things for a few days here to make this right. And after three days, you're like, well, guess what? The whole world didn't collapse. The sky didn't fall. I was able to set aside time and energy and effort and focus to fix something that was off. And it's not the end of the world. And so we need to do that. Like you would sign up for a conference. You would go on a vacation. You would...

You know, they're like, hey, there's this cool thing going on. There's this race. I'm going to take a couple of days and go to this race. Well, when was the last time you took a couple of days off and just focused on improving your marriage? Your communication. You have to make that happen. One more thing that I have to emphasize as a framework for all of this. It's important when you're communicating to know where your spouse is on a scale of like one to 10 of it. How, how, how important is this to you? Because if you and I are talking and you're super intense about something,

that is really, really important to you. And you keep bringing it up and you keep like you tons of emotion around it. And I'm like, what's the big deal? Like what in the world? Why is she so, what's going on? Are you angry or like what's going on? Is it that time of the month? Like what? I'm just sitting here trying to wonder why you're so adamant and so intense. And one of the best ways we've learned to do that is just on a scale. Like on a scale of one to 10, like how important is this?

Rachel Denning (42:33.582)
a nine. And I'm like, for me, this was like a three. Like, I don't even think about it. It doesn't even come across my radar. And for you, it's a nine. And so that tells me I'm like, okay, I actually need to step up here. I've got to do something about this because this is so important to you. And you might say, well, okay, nine's a little crazy here. Maybe I come down to a seven. And I'm like, okay, I'll come up to a seven.

I'll do that for you because this I can tell this is so important, but we often as couples we keep missing each other like that because on the scale we're just we're just off and so one spouse is like why why not why not this dog and the other one's like what is why you keep bringing it up it's crazy and we're completely missing each other on that scale of important. Yeah the hierarchy of values we've called it before because we do.

being different people, we value different things and, and, you know, tone matters to me more than it does to you. But you work on your tone because it is higher on my values hierarchy. Okay. So back to this next part here. he feels defensive. He's being defensive because he's feeling like he's given in, in the past to owning up to his own stuff. Fantastic. That's great. Hopefully we're all doing that. We should all be doing it. This is where I want to chime in.

We should all be doing that all the time. Well, and that's ties into this next part, but it almost sounds like he thinks now we shouldn't have to do it anymore because he's done it so much. It's not going to happen. It should be going on for the rest of our life. There are going to be things that we just have to own up to and saying, yep, I'm not doing that. And acquiesce and give in and I'm sorry, I apologize. I want to compromise.

I can't think of a time, you know, I plan on being married to you for our entire lives and we plan on living way past 100. So we're gonna, we're gonna hit like a 80 year anniversary. I can't think of a time when I'm going to be like, you know what? I'm done compromising. I've compromised so many times over the last 50 years. Like these next 30, no, I'm not compromising anymore.

Rachel Denning (44:57.614)
I'm not giving it anymore. I'm not owning up to my mistakes anymore. I've done that. I've done that. Right. It's like, well, where does this idea come from that like, I owned my mistakes and I acquiesced to you and I, I did things for you because I knew they were important to you, but they weren't important to me. Like at some point I'm just going to draw a line. So I'm done doing it. That's crazy. If I want to stay married, I'm going to keep doing it.

Same for you. If you want to stay married to me, you're going to keep doing that. Exactly. Because at some point, and I'm going to be brutally honest here, at some point, if Rachel was like, yeah, I'm done, I'm done meeting your needs, I'm done acquiescing, I'm done compromising, I'm done working on us, then at that point I'd be like, okay, well then you're working on your divorce. If you're not working on us, then you're working on your divorce. So when you just said like, well, I'm done doing things you want.

You just signed your divorce papers, sucker. How stupid is that? Did you just call me a sucker? No, I'm talking to this hypothetical dude that's like, I'm done working on - You were talking about me. I'm confused now. I went back to the hypothetical person. We'll call him Clarence. Clarence is like, I'm done doing things your way. And we hear that. We hear that. Okay, and I'll be honest here.

I hear it more from men than from women that the man's finally he's just exasperated like we always do at your work. And the reason that happens more often is men are hardwired to keep things simple. Well, but also acquiesce to women. I mean, men, men are hardwired to want to please women and women are hardwired to be a little bit more particular.

and quite emotional and intense about it. And to care about things, especially as they relate to the home or the family, more than a man might. And so they get in a squabble and she gets angry. He's on the couch. She's like, you're never getting sex again. And so he's like, okay, we'll do it your way. And it goes through a cycle. And so over and over and over, a man starts to get resentful because he's like, we always do. And I've told my coaching clients, like, well,

Rachel Denning (47:21.678)
Yeah. If we, if we put it in a pie chart, the percentages of times that we do it Rachel's way, it's quite a bit more often than we do it my way. And I'm not the least bit resentful about that. Like if it sounds, it's not fair, but like we tell our kids affairs where pigs win ribbons and you're not a pig. So life is not fair. Guess what? Marriage is not fair.

If you're looking for fairness, marriage is not a fair, not a little pigs winning ribbons. So I would think very often, it is one more one sided that you end up doing things more your wife's way because she becomes, she can become unpleasant, shall we say. And not you, Rachel, although.

I can become unpleasant. But I think in general women can become quite unpleasant. Well, I've often thought that for men and women, because they are different, there are negatives to their attributes. For men, that's often, the most common one is aggression. That's why there's more men in prison for violent crimes.

violent crimes are committed by men. So the tendency is to anger. The tendency for men is to be angry and eventually violence. For women, I think it's truly narcissism and manipulation. That is the evil side of femininity. And so it is true now, though often, unfortunately, many women become narcissistic and manipulative because their men are not meeting their needs.

And so that's the vehicle they subconsciously latch onto to try to get their needs met. But it's often this vicious cycle coming back to the sex and the communication. The woman's needs of communication aren't being fulfilled. The man's needs for sex aren't being fulfilled. And so they drive each other in this negative spiral to manipulation and aggression. So yeah, both of us have the ten and this is true for you and I. We both can go there if we did not have the strength of our relationship.

Rachel Denning (49:46.446)
and the tools to keep it healthy and healed and stable. So it's not like any of us are immune from this. It's all the reality that we're facing if we don't learn how to work through these problems. So coming back to the question here, I want to keep reading it because there's more. actually this part here is perfect. You already gave this answer, but I'm going to read it. I bought The Empowered Wife. I recommended this book.

again and again and I want to read it but I'm trying to finish up some other books first and hopefully that book has some answers. Greg gave this answer. Do not wait if you are really trying to improve your marriage and your relationship with your husband and you want to be a better wife which you do want to do read that book The Empowered Wife because it will make all the difference. Babe I'm working on a long series called the

Story of civilization, it's 11 volumes. It's massive. That's great. But you will realize as a woman, because even I read that book and I realized, there's still things I'm doing that are causing more problems than I need to. There are still things where I'm not honoring and respecting Greg in the ways that I could. So there are tools in, it's like what Greg was saying.

If this is serious to you, and it should be, because you're either working on your marriage or you're working on your divorce, then put that book to the front of the line and read it and listen to it. I listen to it and then I listen to it again and then I bought the book and then I bought the workbook. Like it's a great book. She has everything clearly listed out and it's got great tools in there. You need that book along with men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Like that should be the Bible of your marriage.

What's cool about that is you're an amazing way and Like our marriage is spectacular and this was just recently you went through that book. There's things I want to do better and level up. Absolutely Because there's always more there's always the next and and I want to be just completely honest here I like I had zero complaint. I had I was there was like sitting there like gosh I wish Rachel would do this or not do that. I had no complaint

Rachel Denning (52:14.99)
and yet you're still reading books like that and saying, what can I do better? It wasn't because there was pain or frustration in our marriage. It wasn't because like, if I don't read this book, like, like our marriage was genuinely extraordinary. And you and I are both still going through books to make it even better. Yeah, exactly. No, that's a great point. Thank you. Okay. My first line of defense is to shut up, shut off and not discuss the situation because he just goes round and round in circles.

and thinks I need to change and I think he needs to just be aware that his nonverbal language is real. But he literally thinks he did nothing wrong. Okay, this scenario right here is actually a perfect example of what happens when men and women misunderstand each other as different aliens from different planets. And if you know men are from Mars, women are from Venus, you know what I'm talking about. You're trying to have a conversation using

different languages. And that is why you go round and round in circles. And I vividly remember that early on in our marriage of having these conversations where I felt like, wait a second, we're just going in circles. Cause all I was doing was thinking like a man and trying to get you to understand it. And all you were doing is thinking like a woman and trying to get me to understand that. We are just going in circles and you're not understanding me and I'm not understanding you. Now we're able to skip that.

It might start, but then we're like, wait a second. this isn't working. And we're able to stop and go to the actual root of the problem and talk about that, which is often something like, well, when you said it in that tone, it made me feel this because it reminded me of all the other times we talked like that. And even sometimes it goes to the point of, as a child, I hated being disapproved of, and I feel disapproved when you...

Look at me like that. And if I were just being a tyrant or just a man, I'd be like, well, that's a you problem. You need to fix your childhood daddy issues. Right. I could be a real jerk about it and real misunderstanding, but like, okay. Because of your childhood. And obviously, yeah, you need to do the processing and healing.

Rachel Denning (54:41.166)
But I'm gonna say, because of experiences she had in her life, she's really sensitive to any perceived disapproval. you know what? Because I love and adore my wife, I'm gonna be more careful about coming across as disapproving. Exactly. And I'm gonna be careful to not say or do things or make glances that might be misinterpreted.

is disapproving and I'm 100 % never going to use disapproval to manipulate her. Like that would just be evil. So I'm walking through here, you know, potential scenarios of what a man's thinking when you say, well, here's why. okay. I can help with that. There's something I can do about this to make it better instead of being petty and being a jerk. Exactly. But it requires us to...

obviously gain those skills to be able to do that, which requires us to one, do the individual work. But first off, whenever a situation like this happened and there's no resolution or you don't come to some agreement, I do the work on my own. I will go off, I'll write about it, I'll think about it. Yeah, same for you. I work harder on myself than I do anything else. So we never, we never ever, and I'm literally using those words intentionally because in this case it's true.

We never ever just let it slide. We always at the very least psychoanalyze ourselves. We will go and sit down. We'll think about why did I feel that way? Why did that look cause me so much pain? Why did that tone make me feel the way I do? And I will dig and the things I'm telling you like it's for real. Like I have this thing about being disapproved of from my childhood. That's the thing that I figured out by studying.

Why, when you said something that way, did it make me feel so bad? Yeah, that was a huge discovery in our marriage years ago. Because you were willing to sit down and be like, why, why am I so sensitive about this? Why, why, why? And I would, I kept asking why, why, why, why? I remember that day, you just came to me in tears. You're like, I don't know why. I figured it out. It's because of when I was a kid, I just absolutely hated being disproved. I was like, that was a big breakthrough. It was, it was a big breakthrough.

Rachel Denning (57:05.454)
And so for me to be able to understand that about myself and then be able to share it with you, now we have tools, we have words. And sometimes all I have to do now is explain to you or use one word and say, I feel disapproved of. I'm like, like when you did that, it made me feel disapproved of.

There's a whole depth of meaning there that you understand what I'm talking about and so you understand why it feels so painful to me, whatever the action or thing was. Even if I know it wasn't intentional, I can even say that. I know it wasn't intentional, but I felt disapproved of it, right? And so it's significant in helping us to get to the root, the underlying cause of the problem, like you say, the underlying cause of the underlying cause, which may be something from your childhood. It's important to point out though, you're not...

hypersensitive about this. You're not over the top. You're sensitive to it. And that's okay. If you were hypersensitive, like all the time, and nobody could do anything or say anything ever that even approached any form of disapproval, no feedback. That's not healthy at all. Yeah, exactly. If you just like, don't ever give me feedback. Don't ever correct me. Don't ever ever make me feel like I was wrong or made a mistake. Then that's, that's so neurotic and unhealthy.

And I'm like, no, you gotta work through that. You need coaching, you need work healing. Like some things are resolved, you can't be like that and then say, well, my husband just knows he can never, ever disapprove. Like no way. Yeah. It does not negate the need for me to change and improve myself and to overcome that part of my, you know, that weakness. Okay. Keep going. Keep going with the question. Okay.

There's so much here you guys. That's what I love. We love questions. And because we've been able to work with so many people and study so many things for so long, you can see in each line, like, there's so much here that we can all learn from. So, and she says, my first line of defense is to shut off and not discuss the situation because she goes around in circles. Sometimes that is the thing, because if you aren't clear in your own mind what's going on and what you're actually talking about, there's another, and sometimes it's like an onion.

Rachel Denning (59:21.934)
I like to think of there's layers and layers and layers here and sometimes he's talking about one layer and you're talking about a different layer. You have to make sure you're talking about the same layer. You're talking about the same thing and so if you feel like that's not happening it might be good to take a break and say you know what I'm not even really sure what we're talking about. Let's take a minute. Let's go think about it. Let's process it and come back and then be more and I know we've done this then we're more clear about what it is we're actually talking about.

When there's I remember specifically a situation when we were we're traveling it's busy you're trying to deal with logistics that are urgent in the moment and we were having this disagreement about where to go and when and why you know and I'm like why are we going there I don't think we should go there we need to do this and You needed space even to get second to realize why it mattered to you And then you actually sent me a text because we weren't together, but it was very just laid out clearly

I was feeling this way. I wanted to do it because it meant this to me because it you know because of this past experience we'd had That's why it matters and with that clarity Well, it was in Morocco, but in this with that clarity I was something like I get it now I know why he wanted to go to the Medina like it makes sense Because you were able to clearly articulate why you felt the way you did about it where before it was

all the chaos going on and trying to deal with everyone and getting mind pomegranates. There's so much chaos and intensity from me saying, I want to do this. And I'm like, it doesn't make sense. Why? But with the articulation and the explanation, then suddenly it makes sense. All the pieces fall into place and you're like, okay, perfect sense. So sometimes we need that space to be able to write it down or to think it out.

And that's another strategy. But not avoid it. Yeah, it's not an avoidance. We're not taking a break to avoid it and not talk about it. Like we said before, we never ever do that. We go, we think about it, we process it. For me, I love to write. So I might even write you an email or write you a text to just get my thoughts clear and focused to know exactly what it is I'm feeling and thinking and why, what it means to me. And that helps a ton for me. So often I think...

Rachel Denning (01:01:42.702)
feel like that's a good strategy. And I would say, I would recommend it actually, if you're in a place in your marriage where you're having a difficult time having some of these conversations, write emails to your spouse or letters. Well, I would start by writing to yourself. Just writing. Start there. You start articulating, you start getting it all out and then you realize, because once it's out on paper, you're like, it's not quite that. Or you're feeling that intensity, you get it out on paper and you're like, okay, I know.

I feel better now. And you can even take some and throw it away. Like, I just, I just vented, I vomited all over the paper and on the people. And I can actually tear that up and throw it away. And now after that first couple of drafts, I'm like, okay, now I've got some clarity here. The intensity is gone. The sickness around it, the poison is out. Now I can sit down and write what I want to say and how I want to say it to my spouse in a way that's productive rather than hurtful and manipulative.

And this ties actually into the other question that we've not gotten to, but she mentioned something about getting those thoughts and feelings stuck in your head. And I know for me, and this maybe is one of the woman things, that's true. If something happens between us or we disagree and I will replay things in my head or I play out different scenarios and it will get stuck in my head and it will go round and round and round and round until it's resolved.

Same. That happens for men, but my guess is it happens differently. Yeah, makes sense. We might be sitting here saying the same thing like, yeah, it plays, it replays in my head. My guess is it replays, it's similar but not the same. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you have the skills, you and I now, we just have the conversation. We talk about it, we get through it, we move on, and then now it's clear and we can go on. So I'll be able to tell you the things that are in my head.

Before I have the skills of doing that, or if I don't have that type of relationship with my spouse, I write it down on paper. And just like you described, and we, there's a strategy that you were referring to that's very specific where you literally write it all out. You can call your husband horrible names if you feel the need, whatever, but you throw it away. And then you can write again and again until you get to a draft that feels,

Rachel Denning (01:04:04.814)
truthful, but also tactful enough that you're not going to be hurting your spouse on purpose, right? Truth hurts sometimes, but it hurts because it's the truth, not because you're trying to hurt them, if that makes sense. So that's a strategy that I would definitely use because you don't want to just keep avoiding these situations, but that doesn't mean you have to be sitting there fighting when you're not making progress. That's not also not the goal.

And I would add to that, if you're replaying things in your head and it's getting stuck in your head and it's going around in circles, stop that pattern because a lot of times it just goes in circles and all it does is create more negative emotions. Yeah, exactly. It spins around. Every time it goes around, more negative. It's stacking. You're poisoned. And then by the time the next time you see your spouse, you're so angry, you could just beat them.

And then they don't, you know, they don't even have to do anything. Right. And just explode. So instead, just stop and like, okay, here it comes again. It's playing again. Take action on it. Play it again and again to understand, to learn. Like, it keeps repeating my head because it's so intense. Why? Why is that happening? Why does it hurt me? Why is it frustrating? Why does she say that? Why does she do this? And if you can do that mentally.

great, but if not, it needs to be written. But you're using the tendency our brains have to replay things to gain an understanding, not just to build up negative emotions. And that's essentially when we talk about processing emotions or whatever, that's kind of the process. That's what we're going to explain is that process. Okay. Be aware that his non -verbal language is real, but he literally thinks he did nothing wrong.

I think that's one of those misunderstandings because I'll tell you things like that too. I'm like, well, you did this thing. You had that little twitch or this move and you're like, what are you doing? Rachel has been chronically accusing me of this teeny little head twitch. it's true. And she's like, whenever, I don't even know what it is. Whenever I'm like, sometimes you're trying to make moves on me or like you think I'm disapproving or something. You're uncertain. Maybe she's like, you did head twitch. I'm like,

Rachel Denning (01:06:21.038)
My head did not move a millimeter woman and she's like, no, you didn't twitch. I'm like, I was cognizant because I knew you were going to accuse me of the twitch. Nothing moved. I didn't even blink. There was no head to it. And that's it's our joke now. She's like, you did the head thing. I'm like, no, I didn't. And so we, we go through that and then we do it jokingly, but they're very well are things that are unconscious or something. He may be completely clueless of what you're talking about.

He literally may not know what you're talking about. Now here's here. This takes a lot of humility and self awareness to dig deep and go, man, I actually subconsciously, I do have a negative thought or negative feeling. And, and he may not realize that it's physically manifesting in a look. This takes, this takes a ton of self awareness. And you're like, you gave me a look and I'm like, I didn't give you a look.

But if I stop and go like, could I have given a look? Because at that moment I was feeling resentment or irritation or frustration. I'm like, ooh, you make me angry. And I thought I was keeping a poker face. And it really was, I was giving a look. And the look was a manifestation of my real thoughts and feelings. And it takes a lot of humility and honesty. That's like a next level for people to be aware of that. So he may be doing it.

and have no clue that he's doing it because it's very subconscious or it's definitely not conscious that he's intent. And so that in his mind, he's like, no, I'm not intentionally disapproving of you. I'm not intentionally giving you these looks, even if it was fleeting because of something subconscious, right? Here's the thought. I've worked with men, women, youth for over two decades.

I've observed a lot of interactions with a lot of people in family dynamics. And I've seen children and youth especially when they're being like lectured to or corrected or their parents are kind of tyrannical or controlling. I've just seen this glazed look on their faces. And then it just becomes this look of disdain. And they just take on this look of like you're correcting me again, you're...

Rachel Denning (01:08:41.582)
reprimanding me, you're insulting me, you're belittling me, whatever. And they pick it up as kids and then it can stick for the rest of their lives. And so sometimes they'll pick it up like, let's say there's a controlling wife and the husband had a controlling mom and so he just gets this look again of like... And he doesn't know he's doing it because it started when he was a kid but it was like this defense mechanism.

It was just a response to his parents being a certain way or something. And so, I mean, this is, there's deep, deep stuff here, but this can all play into those kinds of things. And it takes a lot of discovery and awareness to realize what we're doing and why, and where those things come from. Yeah. Okay. I know I can change the way I react and think about it. You can, but it is also, like we talked about before, important for you to understand.

When sometimes people, I think they believe that when we say change and, you know, stop reacting the same way, it's almost like ignore all of that. Ignore how you're feeling, ignore what, you know, what that means to you and just respond in a different way. True change comes through understanding. And so whenever you do something, whether it's intentional or not, it's really ever intentional, that makes me feel a certain way, I never just ignore it.

I may know that it's wrong for me to feel that way, that it doesn't make sense logically, but I do not ignore it because I know there's some significance there. I don't feel certain ways just because. I feel certain ways because of something that's happened in the past, something that happened in my childhood, some significance. Something in your own biochemistry. Yeah, something in my biochemistry. So I never ignore those things.

So if my husband gives me a look, even if he doesn't know he gave me a look and I felt a certain way about it, I'm not gonna necessarily be angry at him and hold a grudge, but I'm definitely gonna psychoanalyze myself to try to understand why did I feel that way. And you're good now about noticing even your own biochemistry and where you're at. Because you don't even say things and you're like, this week I'm just feeling more sensitive. More, more.

Rachel Denning (01:11:09.742)
whatever it is and you're aware of it and that's helpful for you and it's helpful for me. Yeah. Crazy helpful. You know where I'm at. Like this week I'm sensitive week, you know, so I'm just more sensitive to what you're saying. And that is very helpful. But the point is I don't just ignore it and be like, I just need to do better. I just need to be better because at least for me being better and doing better comes after I get the understanding because

I think our bodies, our souls are trying to teach us things. Our future potential self is trying to teach us lessons we need to know. And those lessons come in the form of pain. Where there's pain, there's power, like you always say. 100%. And sometimes those lessons come up and like, I need to heal this thing from my childhood or my past. Other times they come up and you're like, wait a minute. I didn't sleep well last night. Yeah, right. Or I'm hungry. I'm tired and hungry. Yeah. And that's why I'm feeling emotional. And that's all I need. I just need a nap.

And then afterwards, I feel fantastic. Yeah, this is great. Exactly. Okay. But those cold looks don't encourage more open discussion for me. No, of course. Yeah, I agreed. And if husbands understood that, like your little cold tough guy looks that you would give to other men are driving your wife away and then you're like, why doesn't she want to make love to me more often? Like, dude, it's your facial expressions. Men don't understand that that is connected. Yep.

100 % and in fact, and I don't know why and I'm not a manipulative person but I've noticed in myself That when I and let's use disapproval for me when I feel disapproved of by you My immediate response is want to want to shut down sexually. Yeah, because you retreat because it's almost it's almost like a Protection mechanism because I mean if you think about it evolutionarily

woman, she is responsible for reproduction and in order for a woman to reproduce, she has to feel safe and protected and in order to feel protected, she needs to feel safe and accepted by the man she's going to be reproducing with. And so if... And the tribe, because if she's disapproved of by the tribe, she gets cast out and then she does... And that's not a safe place to have a baby or raise a child. So all of these things have to come into play.

Rachel Denning (01:13:36.27)
And so it's almost like on a biological level, if I'm being rejected or disapproved or any of these things that make me feel unsafe, especially in our relationship, my first response is to shut down sexually because that's protecting me. How could I have a child, you know, on the most basic level, how could I have a child with this person who's not protecting me? I think that's like, you know, that's the evolution there, but that's the biology. But I think that's...

ultimately where it comes from. Because it's not like I'm trying to be manipulative. But it's fascinating. It works though. It does work. But it's fascinating to me that that's the first place my body goes. Which is very interesting. So mental note, never give feedback on a day you want to make love. Yeah. But that's every day. Shoot.

Yeah, you're gonna have to, you know, fix some days, I guess. Okay. So the cold looks don't encourage more open discussion. Absolutely. Maybe I just let it go. And, sorry. I gotta drive this home. Well, okay. Gentlemen, there's nothing, there's nothing in this world more beautiful than a woman who feels like she can just open up and blossom and be herself. Okay. And if you're disapproving looks or you're, why aren't you like this? Or stop being that way. Or you should do this better.

is that kind of stuff you think you're being you're taking the high road and you're you're correcting your wife because you're leading her you're being the man or whatever to have more character you're just closing her up and closing her up and closing her up and she's just a minuscule version of herself peace yeah it's just a tiny piece of what she could be and if you'll get her to where she's comfortable to completely open up to you and and all that that entails.

All that entails. I actually want to make this direct connection because I believe there is a very direct connection to, we use this word open, but this is also a sexual thing. A woman is willing to open up sexually, open up her legs literally, when she feels more open, when she has the ability and the safety and security to be open in all ways.

Rachel Denning (01:16:00.206)
including discussion and conversation and emotion and emotion when I know that I can be completely emotionally honest with you even if that looks ugly sometimes ugly crying and I hate it I don't like ugly crying but for some reason sometimes I have to ugly cry I don't know why it makes no sense to me logically emotionally I have to sometimes I have to ugly cry but when I know I can ugly cry in front of you

and you still accept me, that brings a level of openness that makes me willing to open in all ways. So now I have neuroassociative conditioning, crying and crying. Yes, there will be sex. But men don't know that. No, they don't get it. They don't understand it. There's like toughen up.

Stop it. Stop being so emotional. But they don't realize that what they're doing is you're literally closing your wife down, which means you're also closing her down sexually. Yep. She will not be more open to you. And I think biologically, this is true. I think women who don't enjoy sex or women who just don't want to have sex at all, it's connected to this in a way where they feel closed down in so many other ways that they think, how can I open myself to this? And a man doesn't get that connection. He's like, what?

What does that have to do with sex? Like it has nothing to do with sex. Like this conversation about how you want to decorate the house, what does that have to do with us having sex tonight? And it's interconnected for a woman, not for a man, we can compartmentalize, but for women it's interconnected. Right. And it has to do with all of these things, your body language, your tone, all of that portrays to me whether or not I am safe, I can be vulnerable.

Because I mean, again, if you think about it, nakedness, but it's not just the nakedness. It's not just being comfortable to take off my clothes. It's being comfortable to be myself, to be who I am with all the ugly crying and everything that's involved. Like when I can be that person, then I can be, I can really be with you fully, like in all ways, right? And it's becomes a more beautiful and it becomes a better experience for me. Sex becomes a better experience.

Rachel Denning (01:18:22.35)
for me when I can be open, not just in sex, but in all ways. I'm more feminine, which then leads to greater sex, better sex. Okay. Maybe I just let it go and hope that part of our relationship changes over time. Nope, hope is not a strategy. Now, maybe at...

Sometimes we do let it go so that we can put the other stepping stones in place, like I said before. Sometimes that's the case. Sometimes we're like, I'm trying to leap from here to there. I can't. Let's put some stepping stones in place that makes it a little more of a gradual process. But that's not hope. That's strategy. That's a strategy. Yeah. That's not hope. We never just say, it'll get better over time. No. Unless you take intentional action to make something better,

It's not going to get better over time. That's not the nature of the world. The nature of the world is decomposing in depth. Like that you're either working on your marriage intentionally or working on your divorce. So we have to take intentional strategic action. But that might mean temporarily letting go of the one thing to put in those stepping stones. Okay. Maybe it has to do with current stress levels and on and on. Yes. All of those.

factors are going to come into play. But ultimately you do have to learn how to communicate with each other better so that you can have the conversations you need to have. That's going to definitely include stuff from the empowered wife because I can guarantee this is not anything personal. This is just being a woman. You are doing things that are causing your man to shut down. You are doing things that cause him to feel disrespected. You're doing things that cause him to feel like you don't.

him and all of that is huge for a man if he feels disrespected if he feels like you don't approve of him if he feels like demeaning demeaned by you he's gonna shut down he doesn't want to open up for sure get defensive and angry and do the glares and the looks because that's like it's his defensive mechanism but he also has to take full responsibility for his

Rachel Denning (01:20:44.27)
stress, right? So if he's feeling stressed, stress happens in your head. We love to blame stress on outside circumstance conditions like, well this happens so I'm stressed. Or this is what's going on at work so I'm stressed. That's bogus. Stress only happens in your head because everything only has the meaning you give it. And the way you can't just tell your husband that because that's not going to be helpful. But but but it needs to be worked through like, well, wait a minute.

What are you doing to manage stress? What are you doing to keep yours, take care of yourself, your mind, body and spirit? And that's the first trifecta in the man thing. It's like mind, body, spirit. If you're addressing that every single day, it's going to just drastically minimize any kind of stress. And I think what I would do in this case, if I felt that you were under a lot of stress, rather than blaming and nagging and getting upset.

I would say, hey, what can I do to help? Can I give you a back massage? Can I make something for you? Yes, yes. And we make love. Yes, closer, closer. But I would take specific action to recognize and verbally recognize that I see that you're under a lot of stress. I appreciate it because men love to be appreciated. When I tell you I appreciate that you're taking on stress or you're dealing with stress,

for us and our family, for me, because ultimately that's what it's about, that's huge. That is huge right there. And so you need to recognize the stress and you need to then take specific action to help alleviate it or to, you know, because rather than me saying, hey, you need to deal with your stress and why don't you do something about it? I'm going to help you. I'm going to help you do that by actively being involved.

in some way that you're going to appreciate. So tons of tact and diplomacy, like, hey, look, good workouts, good food. Yeah, if you tell me you want to go work out and be like, yeah, babe, go do that. That's going to help. That's going to help with your stress. And I guess to the men and women, like we cannot use stress as our excuse to act like barbarians. And a lot of people do. Like, well, I'm just stressed. Bogus. Like, I'll never, I'll never.

Rachel Denning (01:23:07.406)
ever, ever allow myself to be rude or gruff or unpleasant with my wife or children. And if you are, you'll apologize immediately. And like, no, that was unacceptable. And I'm not going to be like, sorry, guys, I'm stressed. Bogus. Stress doesn't cause me to act like an idiot. In fact, stress, if it ever I am stressed, it's because I'm not managing my thoughts. It's mental management. And again, I've learned all this over time and I know how to manage that and prevent it.

I have my daily routines and rituals that just prevent stress. And you might be like, well, it's because your life's so easy and comfortable. Yeah, my life is awesome because I make it that way. And I live with very little stress, not because I'm not taking on huge risks and challenges and chasing greatness. It's because I'm managing my mind and body and spirit. Well, and I think that that's important for people to understand. It's not that our lives are stress free. They have a...

Stress is a difficult word to use because I feel like people have different definitions for it. One of them is purely just a physical thing. Like when you're doing things and you're active and moving, that's a form of stress, even if it's not a mental stress per se. Worrying and stressing, that's another form of stress where you're mentally worrying about anxiety, for example. That's a different form of stress. So we have stress in our lives. Tons. The first type, lots of physical stress because...

Our lives are not just sitting around doing nothing. We are doing a lot of things. But in fact, our chosen lifestyle is very stressful. Would crush. But I would say most people, honestly, because unless you have like lots of mental, emotional and spiritual routines and rituals and habits in place, like the risks we take and the challenges we take on and face and what we're going after and how...

chaotic or chosen dream life is, it would just wreck people. Yeah. So it's not like we're just living this comfy, cushy, convenient life where we're like, no, I don't feel any stress. Nothing going on around here. That's not the case. We learn how to manage it. Yeah. Right. Which is ultimately the key to living a bigger, more extraordinary life. You have to learn how to take on more stress. So. This is good.

Rachel Denning (01:25:35.182)
This is good. So this is basically the end of her question. We totally didn't get close to the second question. So we'll do that next time. Yeah. She just ends by saying, I thought those kind of stairs were behind us. I guess they can resurface during times of stress or if he's tired. And again, that's true. Even everything you just said, it's not as though you are immune to the temptations of.

annoyance or frustration or irritation. Like you still have that temptation. You just have learned how to manage it so well that it's very rare. And then when it does happen, you apologize practically immediately. So it's an ongoing thing. It's going to be something that essentially we as couples will deal with for our entire life. Now it gets easier as you get better at it, just like with anything like.

The more you do it, the better you become at it. And so then it's not as difficult to do. That's the key. Okay. Next time we'll continue this conversation in another variation with another very good question and a very difficult circumstance. But these are things you guys can start trying immediately. And as we work on it, you get better results and just get better and what possibly can be better.

Nothing. This is me. This is me. Love you guys. Reach out for it.

Rachel Denning (01:27:18.046)
you