Oct. 30, 2025

Parenting Is a Skill: How Attachment Ends Tantrums & Rebellion

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This episode unpacks secure attachment parenting — a practical approach that pairs deep connection with clear boundaries. Greg and Rachel show how to replace cry-it-out and forced “holding time” with co-regulation, meet real needs first (sleep, food, attention), and guide behavior with kind-but-firm leadership. The result is fewer tantrums, more cooperation, and long-term trust that lasts into adulthood.

Are you using “attachment parenting” — or accidentally doing permissive parenting?

In this eye-opening conversation, Greg & Rachel Denning break down what true attachment parenting is (and isn’t). They share the skills, mindsets, and tools that helped them eliminate tantrums for 16 years and prevent teen rebellion—without yelling, shaming, or rigid control.

You’ll learn why parenting is a specific, learnable skill, how to build secure attachment from baby to teen, and where popular advice (cry-it-out, forced “holding time,” over-scheduling, letting kids lead everything) quietly damages trust. You’ll also get a clear blueprint for connection with boundaries so kids feel safe, seen, and guided—and you feel calm, confident, and effective.

Bottom line: Attachment is earned, not forced. Respect your child’s free will, meet real needs (sleep, food, attention), co-regulate big emotions, and set firm, sensible boundaries. That’s the evergreen approach that works in every generation.

Key Takeaways

✅ Parenting is a skill—unrelated to how good you are at business, sports, or leadership.

✅ Attachment ≠ permissive. It’s connection + boundaries and kind + firm.

✅ Attachment is earned, not forced. No cry-it-out or “holding until defeat.”

✅ Respect free will while providing age-appropriate structure and safety.

✅ Co-regulation first (your calm is contagious), then teach self-regulation.

✅ Meet basics (sleep, nutrition, attention) before behavior battles.

✅ Measure success by long-term trust and adult outcomes—not short-term compliance.

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Attachment Parenting

00:43 Clarifying Misunderstandings in Parenting

02:04 The Importance of Parenting Skills

03:09 Defining Success in Parenting

04:39 Understanding Attachment Parenting

05:23 The Dangers of Misapplied Parenting Techniques

06:56 The Impact of Adoption on Attachment

08:25 The Consequences of Control in Parenting

11:28 The Role of Freedom in Child Development

13:48 The Misconception of Holding Time

16:10 The Impact of Sleep Training on Children

17:59 Respecting Free Will in Parenting

20:39 The Concept of Holding Time

24:22 Understanding Boundaries and Safety

28:24 Preparing Children for Adulthood

31:24 The Lifelong Mentor-Mentee Relationship

33:01 Building a Legacy of Good Parenting

Memorable Quotes

🗣 “Parenting is a skill—and a very specific one you can learn.”

🗣 “Attachment is earned, not forced.”

🗣 “Be kind and firm: connection with boundaries.”

🗣 “Children push to find the boundary—when they find it, they feel safe.”

🗣 “Your calm co-regulates their storm.”

RESOURCES:

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0:00

Parenting is a skill, and it's a very specific skill.

There's so much more I could achieve.

There's so much more light, fulfillment, joy, happiness, peace we could have.

No human being wants to be controlled.

We're.

Trying to be centered and balanced and in the middle.

0:15

We lead, we die, we set boundaries and safety.

It's.

Our role to pass on the best legacy of good parenting to our children.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the extraordinary family Life podcasts where your hosts, Greg and Rachel Denning we we, we want to share as many strategies as possible and.

0:33

As many angles as possible.

Yes.

So that we're not only are we understood, but that we cannot be misunderstood.

But that's it's so hard to not be misunderstood because everyone of us is operating through our lens.

We're talking about, for lack of a better phrase, attachment parenting.

And I really do feel that this is the key piece that so many parents are missing.

0:55

This is the foundational piece that we have used that has made all of the difference in our parenting.

It's the very reason that we essentially eliminated tantrums from our life.

You know, I had one mom respond.

They're like, wow, you haven't had tantrums for 16 years.

1:13

And the reason I, if I could sum it up, the reason why that's happened is because of attachment parenting.

Like that is the style and the approach that we've used to be able to get those results, which is also prevented teenage rebellion.

And I want to point this out emphatically.

1:30

Parenting is a skill, and it's a very specific skill that literally has.

It has very little to do with how good you are at other things.

Yeah.

And how good of a person you are.

It's it's independent of that.

It is a very specific skill.

You might be really, really good at marriage and suck at parenting.

1:46

You might be really good at tennis and suck at parenting.

You might be great in business.

And you just can't parent.

Great with people, right?

You still suck at parents.

Yes, exactly.

You might be great in leadership and management, all this stuff and you're just not parenting because parenting is a very, very specific skill.

2:02

And so that's why we're we're getting so detailed in it and so.

We, you and I, consistently got better and better and better at parenting.

That's why we got the results that we did, not just because we were lucky with the kids that we got.

We want to make sure in this episode that we clarify things so that we're not misunderstood, because the more you can talk about a subject and look at it from all different angles, the better you understand that subject.

2:29

And so as we're talking about this as one of the most important parenting strategies and approaches, we need to make sure that we have a very clear picture of what it looks like so that we're not using it in a way that then actually doesn't work and becomes detrimental to the relationship with our child and to their own mental and emotional well-being.

2:49

And there are so, so much bad advice out there.

Terrible, horrible parenting advice out there.

People have no business writing books or writing books and they're speaking and they're sharing their horrendous parenting ideas.

Because results don't lie.

3:07

So the results that you get, and it's also the results that are like kind of behind the scenes and reading in between the lines, because on the surface, a family can look like, oh, wow, yeah, they're good.

They've got it together.

But when you learn to understand human psychology, you can see certain signs that you're like, hmm, that's interesting, because usually that symptom right there is indicative of this problem.

3:31

Deeper problems.

Yeah.

Well, and I guess the other thing is too is we have to look at like how are we measuring how, how are you measuring parenting success?

That is absolutely fundamental to this whole conversation.

Because one of the things that you love to say to me and the kids and yourself is don't compare down.

3:48

You know, if you're sitting there thinking like, wow, look at everyone below me.

And not, not that necessarily has to be in that light or the approach, But if you're looking around and thinking I'm doing pretty good here, look compared to compared to everyone else, quote UN quote below me, that's not a good measurement of success.

4:09

It depends on how you define it.

But if you look up at the best parents out there and the best families with the best relationships and the best outcomes, then you realize like, oh wow, there's and this is meant to be done in a way that inspires you, not makes you feel like trash, right?

4:25

But like, wow, there's so much more I could achieve.

There's so much more life fulfillment, joy, happiness, peace we could have.

That's amazing.

That's what I'm after rather than I'm doing pretty good compared to the neighbors right start.

Redefining how you define success.

4:42

And as I hear you saying, Rachel, that you know this, you know, what we're referring to is attachment parenting.

That is the key difference in the quality of the relationship you have with your children and will have with your children.

Get this right and you'll have a fantastic relationship.

4:59

Get it wrong and it'll, it'll struggle at best.

Again, you have to define it for yourself.

And, and I would say raise the standard in almost every case of say we could, we could all raise the standard a bit and, and make sure it's solid.

Because if we think, well, no, we, we get along.

Of course there's fighting.

5:14

All families fight.

No, that's not true.

And well, you know, there's bickering.

It's always gonna.

No, it's not.

We have to sibling rivalry.

Yeah, not Trump just because it's common.

Well, I guess that's the point.

It's common.

It's average.

It's mediocre.

So all that garbage that all of your neighbors are saying, or it's all yeah, it's normal.

5:31

That's what kids do.

No, that's what unhealthy kids do.

If you look around at the results that most parents have and you think I don't want those results, which is definitely something I've done, I want results better than that, then I'm going to look at what other parents are doing.

5:47

And I'm probably going to do the opposite because in my mind, because I put together cause and effect saying, oh, parents are doing these things and it's getting these outcome.

That's what they're getting, right?

So I'm going to do something different in order to get different outcomes.

6:03

And that's kind of our whole underlying approach.

OK, so let's get into what we do not mean when we're talking about attachment parenting because that is going to help us make this definition of and get really clear about what it actually is and what we actually mean.

6:20

So we, we received an e-mail and I'm going to read parts of it because I don't want to give away too much information that is personal.

But it says, I do want to say, and you probably know that any way of life that is good in principle.

6:36

And in this specifically, she's returning referring to attachment.

Parenting can be twisted and mangled by broken people, especially parents.

Absolutely true.

And I guess that's why we're doing this episode in particular.

So hey, let's make sure this gets applied well.

6:54

Correctly.

Effectively.

So if you have.

If you personally have attachment disorders, which.

Here's the surprising news.

Ha ha, most of us do, right?

Exactly.

So you have to recognize what yours are and make sure you're not overcompensating or under compensating.

7:13

If if your parents did something off or you're struggling, you feel empty.

You're like, well, I feel empty, so I'm going to make sure I smother my child, right.

And that's, that's really literally what happens.

You're like, I feel empty, so I'm going to smother you.

Well, it creates the same emptiness.

7:29

It's just a different strategies, different tactic it.

Doesn't work.

I, I often think of the pendulum, you know, and when a pendulum swings, it goes from one extreme to another.

And that often is what's happening in our parenting relationships.

7:47

We are going from what our parents did and then swinging way over to the other side and doing something completely opposite when what we really need is the middle way, right?

Kind of like Buddha talks about, or the yen and the Yang.

Like we have to find the middle and do the balance of the yin and Yang.

8:06

That's where we find the right application of the approaches that we're trying to implement.

SO1 extreme on one end or the other is not what we're after.

We're trying to be centered and balanced and in the middle, yes.

8:23

As is always the case, the outcomes we want, the results we want are earned.

Attachment is earned.

Not forced as we'll get.

Exactly.

So you can't force it.

What happens is we think there's a challenge here.

8:39

There's a difficulty.

I'm going to make this happen and we try to force it and it obviously creates the opposite effect.

It's the same as I want my kids to be good kids, to be obedient kids.

So I'm going to be very, nobody says this, but they end up being very controlling.

8:58

I'm going to force obedience.

I'm going to force goodness on these kids because I want them to be good.

It literally creates the opposite.

It pushes towards rebellion or resentment.

Even though sometimes on the surface it can appear to be creating the outcomes they want.

9:15

And This is why it can be confusing because if you look at the family and you look at the surface outcomes, you're like, oh, it's working for them.

They're getting the results that they want.

But if you look behind the scenes and behind closed doors and in the corners and resources, resource recesses and dark places, you see there's a lot of problem attachment disorders, there's mental and emotional ill illness.

9:44

You know, there's a lot of this going on behind the scenes.

And then parents are wondering, well, why is my child struggling with anxiety or depression?

Or why are why can't they?

Why aren't they more resilient?

Why aren't they more confident?

A lot of those issues are stemming directly from these techniques that may appear to work on the surface but are really causing this damage behind this door.

10:07

Those doors and and even well, there's another challenging situation we see often is that the the youth or young adult or sometimes even full grown adult.

Now, they would never ever say it to their parents, but they tell you and me often like I can't stand my parents.

10:24

I don't, I want nothing to do with them.

I don't like and, and sometimes you're like, I hate my parents.

I literally hate my parents.

But the parents don't know that.

They don't know they think we're winning.

We're great parents.

This is fantastic.

Our kids are doing this and that and the other and the kids are like, no, I can't stand you.

10:40

But they never say that to them because they're just being kind of thoughtful and and they comply with the parents when they're around the parents, they do the things, they say the things because they don't want, you know, they don't want to have to deal with it.

But as soon as they get away from they're like, I'm going to do whatever, I'll do the opposite.

I can't stand my parents.

And so parents who think they're winning are losing because they're getting superficial.

11:01

Feedback.

And then unfortunately, what we happen, what we see happen is what we called the train wreck, where something becomes a catalyst that blows it up and there's a suicide attempt or there's a crime, jail, arrests, addiction, you know, these horrible things that happen.

11:20

And parents are like, what happened?

I thought things were going so well.

And, you know, they end up talking to you.

And you're like, well, yeah, here was the warning signs here, here, here and here that we know leads to this train wreck.

But if you don't do something about it before, well, then you don't know it's a problem until it actually becomes a big, major problem.

11:39

And so our approach is always like, well, no, let's spot the mile markers.

Let's spot the red flags along the way so we can prevent those big things from happening because we notice and we know what happens to lead up to those.

That's where we want to work.

11:55

Our area of focus for us and what we try to teach our clients is always focusing on the early warning signs to prevent those things.

Hey there, this is Greg Denning.

We want to reach as many people as possible and help as many families as possible with these conversations.

12:12

And we want to keep this podcast ad free forever.

You can help us do that by subscribing on Spotify or Apple podcasts or wherever you listen your favorite platform and on YouTube and leave a quick review and and share your favorite episodes with friends and family.

12:27

It makes a big difference.

Thank you for being a part of this very important movement.

But let's go back to our question.

So she's saying essentially that her mother was adopted.

She adopted her sisters.

One of them struggled with attachment.

And she did something which we she hasn't gotten to yet, that she won't forgive her for because she thinks it's not the right thing.

12:45

And what it was was she forced cuddle time with my sister, who would be screaming her head off until the child, her sister, submitted in silent defeat.

It was my sister's therapist that suggested it and it was called holding time.

13:05

Now, this is so fascinating to me because when I was either a new mother or not yet a parent, because we adopted our first and Greg and I lived in this tiny little farming town and this tiny little place in Utah.

13:21

And I would every week go to the go to the library and check out tons and tons and tons of books on birth and parenting and homeschooling.

Like everything I could think of.

I would have a whole stack.

I would bring them home.

I would read them all and then I would take them back.

One of the books that I read, and for whatever reason it really stood out to me, was called Holding Time.

13:42

It described this scenario that she's talking about.

The whole premise of the book was in order to bond or attach with your child, you would hold them until they submitted to you.

So you would if there was something that happened.

That's a bad idea right there.

14:00

Really bad idea.

Wondering where I'm going with this and you before you turn off this episode.

No, that's a bad idea.

And now the idea was though that you would, it would create a deeper bond between parent and child because the parent, the child would be upset.

14:16

The parent would hold them and would keep holding them as they got more and more and more and more and more upset and would not let them go until they finally stopped trying and gave up and submitted.

And then at that point supposedly the deep bonding was supposed to happen.

14:35

Now this doesn't work on so many levels.

Like the psychology behind this is just it's insane nest but.

That's that should be obvious, so I want to just point out that it's obvious.

Maybe it's not to some people so.

But that's why I want to point out it's like, no human being wants to be controlled, yes.

14:52

No human being, even babies, no human being wants to be controlled.

We are born with a desire for freedom.

So when you control them, when you force any human being, oh, it is either going to inspire fight rebellion or deep resentment.

15:09

So when the child's not, I think how just psychologically that disturbing is because it's the child's so small to take AI don't know 3 year old.

You're larger than them.

You.

Hold them so there's no way you're so much stronger than they are.

There's nothing they can do.

So you're literally they're just defeated and they fight, they try to do everything they can and finally an exhaustion, they just stopped like undefeated.

15:33

Look what you've just done.

Psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, you're.

Killing their human spirit, Yes, basically.

It's insane.

Like it's very, very, very disturbing and very sad.

OK, so the idea of holding your kids for attachments is phenomenal.

15:49

I love that.

Like we love holding our kids.

I hold our kids all the time when especially when they're little.

That's a wonderful thing.

But you don't force it.

You don't say, oh, this kid doesn't like me or not attached.

So come here child, and I'll hold you until you attach.

That's doesn't make sense at all.

16:05

It's not holding until they attach.

It's holding until there's defeat, and then you've you've ruined it even farther.

And I'm, and this is one example because there's lots of parenting books about sleep training and letting children, babies cry it out because in in a way that's the same thing that's happening.

16:21

Whether you're holding your child until they give up or you leave your child alone and let them cry until they give up.

It's really the same thing.

You're breaking the human spirit because they reach a point where they realize it's pointless If I this.

Is not a safe world.

16:37

Because no one will respond to me.

It's not a safe world.

There's literally a part of them psychologically that dies.

That gets defeated.

And so, you know, whether it's that I've I've also heard of and read books about having babies on these very strict schedules.

16:52

So it doesn't matter if they're they cry and they're hungry at noon, their feeding time is at 1, so they're going to have to wait.

Again, this is literally advice that's out there.

The.

Best ideas I've ever heard.

So the underlying idea behind this concept that we're discussing withholding time, I think connects to the principle of honoring and respecting individual free will.

17:19

Because in all of the parenting strategies and techniques that we teach, behind all of them is our respect for our children's free will.

Like whether that comes to attaching, whether that comes to eating, whether that comes to how they spend their time during the day, whether that comes to whatever.

17:37

Whatever topic it is, we approach it from this place of ultimately we respect their individual will and we're not going to do something that violates that.

That means crying it out.

We're not going to let them cry it out because especially when they're helpless and you know there's nothing they can do, we are the ones that have to do the thing for them.

17:59

Behind all of the things we're talking about needs to be this respect of free will now.

People are people, no matter how small, and we've always lived by that, like the littlest ones.

Like I will respect a little child because that is a sovereign human being that needs to be respected.

18:17

But to be clear and not misunderstood, let us talk about what that does not mean.

Because for as one example, there's this real I've seen on Instagram, it went viral, it's very popular.

And it, it was satire.

18:33

She was making fun of this idea.

But but it exists because my daughter, actually my oldest daughter, she works with, she did work as like a nanny.

And there was a woman she knew who had this approach.

And it's essentially this idea of like, I'm not going to do anything without my child's permission, right?

18:51

So that's reel that's making fun of it is they're running around Costco and she's like, you know, it's this whole I'm not going to even touch you without your permission.

So you're throwing a tantrum on the floor.

But is it OK if I touch you?

And if I if I comfort you, is that OK?

19:07

Oh, that's not OK.

I'm so sorry.

Will you forgive me?

You know, that is not what we're talking about, OK?

We're not talking about giving your children license and individual will to do whatever it is that they want or please or whatever comes into their head.

19:24

It's not about not having boundaries.

It's not about free reign, right?

Free reign parenting of like they literally have reign of the house to do everything and anything and create and.

Because you're like, wait a minute, you're, you're using a 5 year old brain.

19:40

Or a three-year old brain.

Or.

Just wreck everything.

And that's why we have parents.

That's why children have parents because somebody's supposed to have a fully developed brain here and make decisions, set up boundaries to keep children safe and teach them and guide them and mentor them and coach them.

19:58

So yes, we lead, we guide, we set boundaries and safeties.

And yes, we set up, you know, hey, no, that's, we don't do that.

I know you think that's OK because you're 4, but that's not OK.

And it's my job to teach you because children actually feel safer when they have very clearly defined boundaries.

20:17

Like that's what provides their mental and emotional security.

And so if we again swing the pendulum to the other extreme and think, oh, I'm going to respect my children's free will.

So that means they can do whatever because unless they give me permission, I can't instill boundaries.

20:33

No, that's not what that means.

So I want to use one example of how this plays out, specifically related to holding time.

Now you may not recall this because before we started this, I was like, remember I read that book on holding time and he was like, no, I don't.

I didn't.

I remember reading the book and I know that I must have told you about it because I remember us using certain strategies in an adjusted way from that book, one of which was when our youngest children were toddlers.

21:04

Now you have to also remember that we had four children when our fourth child was born.

My oldest child was 4, so we had four children under the age of four.

We had a lot of toddlers at once.

One of the strategies we would use that I feel was effective at the time was if one of them got upset, and this was back when we had tantrums, right?

21:25

We would we or specifically you, you would take them and you would hold them until they calmed down well.

Let me give a specific details because I've even shared this with a few parents.

Occasionally parents reach out to me and they have a child who's particularly difficult or.

21:42

Belligerent.

Yeah, well, and, and the kid goes bonkers is like breaking things, destroying things, hurting other siblings, like going completely bonkers.

And so this was a strategy I used extremely sparingly.

21:57

I, I mean maybe, maybe 10 times total ever with seven children is when the kid went completely bonkers instead of, you know, banishing them.

Time out.

To to some of the room where they go break things or hurt people and do whatever.

Yeah, it says some other punishment.

22:13

I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm going to hold you and, and I was, this was critically important.

I was in a good state.

I was so cool.

I'm not, I'm not angry.

Like, hey, buddy, I'm going to hold you here because you're just out of control right now.

And so I'm going to hold you because I love you and and we're going to work through this right now together.

22:32

But you're being absolutely unreasonable.

And I'm talking to them when they're, they're like trying to pick and punch, bite and pinch head.

Butt.

Yeah, they're trying to head butt and like I'm I'm strong.

And so I didn't squeeze them.

You didn't hurt them.

I didn't hurt them.

22:47

I I was able to wrap my arms around them without squeezing and leave my arms in place because I have the strength to do that.

So.

Talking in a calm voice, calming them down and telling them how to calm down like.

Take care of breath.

As soon as you're calm, I'm going to let you go.

23:03

As soon as you stop going ballistic, you are free.

The the moment you chillax, you're free.

They see that you need you're just out of control.

So take a couple of these breaths, calm down and you're good.

And and they would it only took a short time.

They were just like when they realized like, hey, I'm serious here, like you're out of control, like you're going bonkers, kiddo.

23:23

And so I'm going to hold you until you calm down and then calm down and let me.

Yeah, it's not.

So it never, it was never like 5 minutes of me like this wrestling match, squeezing, threatening, angry, upset.

And every time they would calm down and then they would hug me.

23:38

They would want to cuddle.

They'd climb back on by my lap.

And it was, yes.

It was like, they're like, OK, I'm calm.

And then they're calm, like, hey, come here.

Then.

Then they wanted me to hold them.

And loving it was immediately like they went from being held to like, chillax to, oh, can I hold you now?

I'm like, yes, of course.

And that was just amazing, real bonding.

23:54

That tactic was extremely rare and only when the kids lost their bananas.

I mean, they were bonkers.

But I do remember with some of the kids that there was a period of time where you had to use it, let's say 3 or 4 times in a row over a period of, I don't know, two months.

24:16

And that was enough to help them learn how to regulate themselves better.

So that then the need for that was prevented, if that makes sense.

So that's one of the boundaries we're talking about, where if you do have these boundaries in place, if your kid pushes up against the fence and they realize this is a fence and dad's going to hold me physically to resist me or to to control me until I control myself, they learn to control themselves before they ever get to that fence.

24:48

Right.

And I think that was only with maybe two of our kids.

Well, yeah, because.

So.

Out of seven, just two of them had that kind of personality to just go all out.

But I also think that, well, one of course, our own parenting strategies improve.

So we were better at attachment and we were better at preventing meltdowns.

25:08

And because if the older kids learn something, it's like then it gets passed on to the other.

So it's like it, it becomes a part of the family culture.

And so those techniques aren't needed as much because the family culture is already established.

25:24

Now, if you already have a child who is crazy like this, then you might need a strategy like this and you might need to do it for a period of time, especially if they're older, so that they learn to understand that, yes, you have boundaries, here's the boundary.

And if you hold those boundaries, they learn to respect them and more importantly, they feel much safer.

25:44

Almost every time now, yeah, almost every time.

Now that parent comes to me with a child who's just kind of uncontrollable and out of control.

I can't think of a single exception where it wasn't related to sleep and food.

26:02

Lack of attachment.

Well, yeah, yes, but the primary factors were sleep and food.

And we didn't know that, you know, back then we learned all this stuff like now any time it comes to me, it's like the very first factors for any kind of behavioral stuff, we're looking at sleep, make sure they're really getting enough sleep and very often they're not.

Or make sure they're eating good food, very often they're not.

26:19

And then we're going to say, well, what's, how's your connection with your?

And how much attention are they getting from you?

Basically exactly.

OK, I'm going to continue with her e-mail.

So you know it was called holding time.

We went off on that and she says it was horrific.

I get sick just thinking about that poor baby, sweating and red in the face while she slowly gave up her will and submitted to my monster of a mother.

26:47

So don't do that.

Don't do that, because if your child gives up their will, trust me, that is not a good thing and at some point in their life they're going to resent you for that.

She continues.

I forgot to add that this sister is my mom's thought sleeve.

27:04

She quite literally cannot think for herself on any subject unless she clears it first with mom.

She's 20 this year and she has never spent a day away from my parents.

No college, no career, no boyfriend, nothing.

27:22

Just the mommying they call home schooling out in their farm, totally isolated from everything.

Which is something else I wanted to mention.

Offering resources and then throwing your kids into a flood of possibilities doesn't work.

We she failed to teach us any kind of routine or schedule or habits and never set a good example of how to use it herself.

27:44

OK so this is essentially talking about the idea of boundaries.

Like we can't just bond with our kids or provide resources for them or whatever without modeling it for them, without setting up the clear boundaries and expectations and then.

Systems and strategies and systems teaching your kids while they're in your house, you've got to teach them all the systems and strategies that work for every aspect of life.

28:07

So I mean, you think through physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, social, financial, they've got to have systems and strategies for all of those things.

So when they turn 18/19/20 and they're ready to launch, they've, they have all those things, they've got all those tools.

They've been practicing it for years, literally years.

28:22

Like, Oh yeah, I know do that.

I've been doing it for a very long time.

Show them the way.

You give them the tools, you help them practice, you coach them through it so they get better at it.

It's literal skill development so that they're ready to launch and they're autonomous instead of like in this case.

28:39

And in many cases, we have these 20 year old babies.

They can't think for themselves, they can't make decisions, they can't solve problems, they can't figure things out.

They won't go anywhere because they're afraid or underdeveloped under skilled.

So she continues because she's like, another thing to be careful about when you guys are talking about your kids needing you until they're 25.

29:03

Now.

I don't.

I mean, maybe the way we've worded it has come across like that.

I don't, I hope we haven't said that our kids need us until they're 25.

What I have, we have talked about and, and the reason why we talk about it is because, and I grew up with this understanding too, we've been taught to believe societally that at 18 you're an adult.

29:24

And that's just not true.

That's actually a misconception.

Adulthood officially starts later, and it varies for every person.

Like, there's no hard number.

But scientifically, generally, the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until 24 or 25.

29:42

Now, can you start becoming an adult before that?

Of course, like you, the more you take on responsibility, the more you mature and the more you become adult like.

So when we talk about until 25, what we're trying to do is help shift the current paradigm that oh, at 18 you're an adult and now you should be ready to do your own thing.

30:01

That may be true for some, but some may not be ready at 18.

And again, because every child is unique and individual, we have to respect those differences and not feel like Oh my child is a failure because they're 18 and they are still at home or what not.

30:17

What a what a silly.

Idea even worse.

OK, because I want to clarify on this too, because I've had people say to me on my Instagram, sometimes they're like, well, there's nothing wrong with staying home.

And I and I would agree with that.

Because if you look at history and if you look at other cultures, many, in fact, we had this woman from South Africa who's like, it's normal in South Africa to live with your parents until you're 30 or older.

30:38

But the point is, and the difference is you're a contributing member to the family household, not just someone who sits at home and plays video games while your mommy takes care of you.

That's the major difference.

Your child can stay at home, that's fine, but they need to be maturing and progressing and contributing to the family and to their own growth and development, not just being taken care of.

31:00

Real.

Palpable progress.

So they are pursuing education, they're starting businesses, they're building relationships, they're really getting after it.

That's a sign of a healthy young adult right there.

Like they are moving.

So the fact that they might live in your house for a little bit, for a few years, OK, whatever.

31:19

But they are growing and prepping for life.

That's phenomenal.

So in life, we have two options.

You can level up or you can level off.

Most people level off.

Most parents level off.

So no wonder their kids stop coming to them for advice or guidance because you're like, well, I'm going to go somewhere else because my parents are going nowhere, doing nothing.

31:40

They've levelled off in life.

So that's how you lose influence.

That's how you lose.

The kids don't come back to you.

It's like, why?

Why would I go to you?

I hear that all the time from adults, like full grown men.

They're like, I can't go to my dad, I can't go to my mom.

Like they don't know any of this stuff.

When I want to really lean in and level up and and solve big problems, you know, they're kind, they're loving, but I can't go to them.

32:01

They don't, they have no idea.

I hear that all the time, but that's not what I'm doing.

I'm going to keep leveling up like crazy.

So I'm always going to be 25 years ahead of my oldest and more with the others.

So I'm going to keep chasing greatness so that my kids are always wanting to come be like, dude, mom and dad are crushing it.

32:19

I might keep learning.

For them, yeah.

And so, yeah, So I guess if we have given this idea that we're talking about our children always quote, UN quote, needing us, I mean, essentially that's what we mean.

What you just summarized, you know our kids needing us or wanting advice from us is in the mentor mentee relationship throughout life, which is how life ideally is meant to be lived.

32:43

I want to be useful.

I want to be helpful.

I want to be leveling up so much that I'm a resource to them if they want to learn what I'm learning, what I'm experiencing, all the trial and error I'm doing for all those years, I'm not just getting older.

Like I absolutely refuse to just get older.

33:00

I'm getting better.

I, I realize that all of us in the entire world basically are coming from because we're all human backgrounds and perfect childhoods.

And the goal in my mind is to continue to increase that knowledge, the understanding, the skills, so that we can become better and better and better parents generationally so that each generation gets even better.

33:26

We stand on the shoulders of those that came before us.

And that's kind of the idea I have.

But in that context, it's our job now.

Now we are the adults, now we are the parents.

And as the parents, it's our role to pass on the best legacy we can of good parenting to our children so that they can build upon that and we can have even better relationships and change in the world to make the world a better place.

33:53

Amen.

Get the skills, very specific parenting skills and it makes all the difference, totally alters your outcomes, gives different results.

Love that is the the stuff is awesome.

It's so needed.

34:09

The work we do in our homes is the most important work there is and it will be the most rewarding work as well.

And it can be lifetime work if we do it well.

We'll keep a good relationship with the children for the rest of our lives, which is what I want.

34:25

And enjoyable work, Yeah, it doesn't have to be unpleasant.

Unpleasant and.

And yes.

That's what kills me too.

Many people, too many parents.

I think it is.

It's just terrible.

They feel like parenting is miserable and it doesn't have to be that.

Wait, I honestly enjoy.

34:40

I love being a parent and I find it to be enjoyable work because I've gained the skills that makes every day.

Yeah.

I love being a fun, beautiful, I love mentoring my kids.

So a parenting should be one of the greatest joys in your life, not one of the biggest unpleasant burdens.

34:56

So if it is an unpleasant burden, it's just cuz you're doing it wrong.

And that's good news cuz then you're like, OK, I just get a different skill, a different tool, a different lever, a different tactic, a a new system, a new strategy.

And that's what Rachel are doing all the time.

We're, we're sharing what we've learned from decades of study and coaching people all around the world and like, hey, this stuff.