#291 Creating Good Routines and Habits for Resistant Children (So They’re Happy Most of the Time)

Rachel Denning (00:07.354)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your hosts, Greg and Rachel Denning We're answering another great question today and I'm super excited to talk about these things because the little adjustments matter so much. The 1%, the 2 % adjustments, the little refinements make such a big difference and people...

might be skeptical. I used to be skeptical. It's like, how can such a small adjustment make such a big difference? But then once you get into it in your own life and then especially with coaching now, I get to see it so many times. This little adjustment, that little adjustment, it makes a huge difference, massive difference. And it's easy to be skeptical and to hold on to your methods. But remember, if you hold on to your methods, you're holding on to your results. So if you don't like your results, you have to question your methods.

And I think that humility can open us to experimenting. The willingness to just try it. Try different things. We get so married to our methods. We get married to our ways of doing things that we complain that it's not working. Well, because you were saying to me the other day that...

essentially because you experience this in your coaching, many people really suck at self-awareness. Like they think that they are self-aware, but then...

Rachel Denning (01:39.968)
as you dive into details with them because, know, well, Jordan Peterson loves to say, which I hate this kind of saying, devil's in the details. the actual difference is found in the details of the small interaction, the way you say it, the body language, the tone, the timing. You know, we think, no, that can't really be the case. But from our own personal experience,

as well as the experience of working with lots of clients, we know that that is actually where the biggest differences can be made in the smallest little changes of details. There is right there. The difference is in the details. Exactly. my goodness. Right. That could be a book title. Yeah. The difference is in the details. And so... it really is. Yeah. And so while people often think they have self-awareness, it's by increasing the levels of their self-awareness and noticing all of the tiny details and interactions

and thoughts and feelings and all of that, that begin to make the biggest changes for

the family dynamics, the dynamics in your marriage and in your parenting and getting the actual results you want. So that's why we love to talk about this and bring it. And the other thing is to bringing it from all these different angles. You know, that's why we go off on all of our tangents because we're trying to help you see as many different viewpoints as possible because ultimately what that's doing is developing networks in your brain. Like it's literally, the more you're exposed to mentally, emotionally, spiritually,

socially, physically out in the world, the more...

Rachel Denning (03:20.118)
neural connections that are made in your brain. And as your brain makes more neural connections, it becomes more developed. And that's how you become a better person, a better parent, a better spouse, by having a more developed brain. I like the word capable, because if you look at a brain that has a million neural connections and you contrast it to a brain that has a hundred million neural connections, which one's more capable?

Okay, wow, that's amazing. And there's so many pathways. And what's cool about this, hear this all the time. People who listen to our podcast and they're like, man, that one thing you said, it was a long time ago. Like this one little thing, you mentioned this one thing, you told this one little story and it just stuck. so, what I told you- I don't even remember. Right, exactly, right. I remember saying that. Or I was like, that was a long time ago. But whatever it was, it was relevant at that time and so it made that connection.

And then they use it. So they take it home and they're like, yeah, started the way we do meal prep is differently. The way I discipline is different now. The way I do my exercising is different because you just said this little thing, this little passing remark. And I grabbed hold of it and it made a difference. In that, I want to share just one example that I had this week. was with a coaching plant. And in this instance, she said, look, I was being tactful.

in my responses. I was like, fantastic, that's great. Tact is one of the elements. But in this particular instance, timing also mattered. And so I wanted to share that principle because even if we're doing the right thing in the right way, if we don't do it at the right time, it still won't land. And it's so frustrating because we're like, wait, I did the right thing and I did it the right way. I really good tact. I'm like, yeah, but if the timing's off, then...

tone is on. The tone or whatever or...

Rachel Denning (05:20.61)
or the relationship is off. If my relationship with you, Rachel, is not in a good spot, then no matter how tactful I am. Or how good your timing is. Yeah, and my time is like, it's a mess. And it's not gonna land. If we're disconnected, it's not going to have the same effect. And so yeah, that's another key element because if you don't have, and that's gonna relate to what we're talking about today, think as well. If you don't have that connection with your child or with your spouse, even if you're

doing the right things, it's not gonna have the same effect because you're missing...

that emotional capital, right? Like we love to talk about the emotional bank account. If your bank account with that person is empty, it doesn't matter if you do everything perfect, saying the right things, doing the right things. It's not gonna have the same effect because your bank account is drained or in the negative. So again, another key element and that's why we keep doing this podcast. That's why we keep talking about these things again and again and again because we want to help you see

the entire picture from every angle possible up down north south east west like everywhere so that you can get a view of it and so you can start to get those connections in your brain of like yeah this this is the piece i was missing right there plug it in and now everything changes so man that could be so well it's so empowering and so exciting but it can also be so frustrating and because if you have a combination lock

that has to be done, and let's say it has seven numbers, and you get six of them right.

Rachel Denning (07:04.868)
But you're just off by one digit on that seventh, the lock won't unlock. And you're like, I'm doing everything! And I love this. I'm glad you came up with this analogy because that's beautiful. I think that's exactly what it's like. Parenting well, having an amazing marriage. It's like trying to open a combination lock. And you can be doing most of the things right. But if you're missing something that's a key element.

the lock's not gonna open, and you'll be like, I've tried everything. I'm doing everything I can.

And yet we're like, wait a second. And that is the benefit of coaching, because you're diving in with them deep. Like, OK, let's go through all the combination box and see what you're missing. And then when you get that one, that's when it opens everything That happens every time. OK, what about this? good. Good job. about this? Great. Great. Yep. Good. Wow. Good job. You're nailing that. Wow. Good. Wow. You're doing so well. And they're like, why am I not getting results? it's the last number. Yeah. And you're only one digit

Just roll that thing a little bit you got it. Yep, and that's what makes the difference because otherwise if you keep doing the this the six numbers, right? You're just off on the seven you keep doing keep doing keep doing the resentment builds the drain on the relationship accounts the irritation and finally there's this is explosion or implosion and terrible outcomes and real suffering

But I was doing all the things. So powerful. And that's so relevant for today's comment. It definitely is. And I think that that's bringing it back to the power of self-awareness, which you often need someone to help you have self-awareness. That's one of the benefits of being married. It's helping you have more self-awareness because your spouse is aware of you and notices more the things that you are doing or not doing that are annoying or frustrating or irritating.

Rachel Denning (09:07.618)
or not leading to you being yourself, right? That's the power of marriage, although we often find that annoying for marriage, but that's one of the benefits. That's exactly what it's for. If you've gotten to a place where you've trained your spouse to not give you feedback,

Sorry for you. Because you're not going to have near the growth and development in your marriage. Even if your marriage is good, it won't get too extraordinary if you're not willing to receive that feedback from yourself. It's so important, so powerful. So the key then is to realize, and that's not to say that you haven't developed any self-awareness, but when you realize that still...

The majority of your problems like that combination lock will be solved once you gain even more awareness. And I really think that's the goal. At least for me, that's my goal. I'm constantly saying, how can I become even more self-aware in my parenting, in my marriage, in my finances, in my business, in my productivity, in my physical fitness? How can I become more self-aware so that I can see? Because like you just gave

example of the combination lock, we actually have a combination lock for all of these elements. your fitness. You can be like, I tried everything and I'm not losing weight, I've done it all. Well no you haven't, because otherwise you would have unlocked the combination. My parenting. Let me take a little bit of a tangent here that's relevant to of Fitness is such an easy example because it's visible and almost everyone can relate to it because we have bodies and we do something like you can relate

But not on fitness specifically. There's a spiritual text that I read a long time ago and talked about there being a kingdom.

Rachel Denning (11:09.744)
a kingdom for everything. So there's nothing in the universe that doesn't have a kingdom. So like the kingdom of health, and the kingdom of fitness, and the kingdom of finances, the kingdom of painting. kingdom of... Yes. Pick anything. Building. kingdom Investing. But of marriage and of parenting. And of every kind of issue. The kingdom of communication. And inside... So let me say that about framework. There's nothing, not a single thing in the universe that isn't

Fit within a kingdom and inside every kingdom its own little kingdom has laws So there are laws that govern the king And then you can you go down even to really? very specific outcomes you want either for a specific muscle group

or specific of calves. Yes, your calf muscles or your hamstrings. And then you feel like you don't keep the flexibility there and the mobility, you lose it. So we have a good friend who's a hand surgeon and he spent decades.

Tech-ed. Studying the hand and wrist. And all the little intricacies. So there's a kingdom there in the wrist. It's so fascinating. And then when I was in university, I studying in chemistry and biology. And my biology professor had spent 25 years studying the common housefly. And I like, what a horrendous career. I was like, well, that's terrible. But this guy spent 25 years trying to understand the flying.

And so there's a kingdom for a fly. I don't like that kingdom. Me neither. don't like that kingdom. don't care. But they have their purpose. I guess. They do. But you know what saying. So now if everything has a kingdom and every kingdom is governed by laws.

Rachel Denning (13:14.212)
then if we're not, if we don't know the laws and we don't live by the laws, then we don't get the positive results and in beginning we get the negative results from the laws. it's a cool framework that I love to operate. It's like not understanding that there's a law of gravity and then wondering why you're getting hurt by tripping or like walking off a building. know, what's going on here? Why can't I do this? Why do I keep falling down and getting hurt? Well it's like, dude, learn to work with gravity and then you can fly.

Right? Exactly. Well, that's even a more profound comparison is learning the laws of aviation. Which work with the laws of gravity still. Well, that's also another one. So then you're working with all these kingdoms that are next to each other and overlap. There it is. That's part of the combination. Okay. So tangent. Yeah. Relevant. Let's get to the question. Let's get to the question. Okay.

We love receiving your questions, so thank you for sending them because we love to give a glimpse into your lives, the challenges you're dealing with, what you're facing. Again, the little nuances because it's in the nuances where the difference is in the details and that's what makes the difference is when you dive into the details. So we want to hear the details and we want to help you dive into them. Josh, I gotta answer this like that. The difference is in the details.

The difference is in the details. And if you feel like you're so close and yet so far away, this is why coaching is so powerful. So here we go. It starts just by saying, I don't know why I can't stick to routines. Explanation point. Would you say routines can be different for different families? And here different people say.

to work before play and that's what kids need to learn as well.

Rachel Denning (15:11.556)
So it starts off by saying, can't stick to routines. Which is inaccurate.

because everyone has a routine. And everyone is sticking to their routine. What's accurate is I'm having a hard time creating a new routine and sticking to a new routine because what you're doing is you're doing a great job at sticking to your old routine. You can't not have a routine. You can't not. So there it is. There's a kingdom of routines. And everyone has routines. And whether they're aware of it or not, or conscious of it or not, or whether they consciously established it or not, or they're just doing it by default, everyone has a routine.

routine. Like that's how the human body works, that's how the brain works. You become subconscious. There's no way you can function without routines. you're truly great at sticking to routines. You were designed and created. Your entire biology and psychology is created around routines. So you're phenomenal. Every human being listening, you are actually phenomenal at sticking to routines. You're just sticking to the one you don't want.

well or the one you just have. And so you want a new one. Well, and I say that because obviously she probably means I'm trying to create a new routine and I can't stick to that. one of the reasons for that is because if you think about the neurophysiology of the brain, your brain creates neural connections and

The more it does the same thing, the more it keeps it routine, the stronger that neural connection becomes. In fact, if you thought about it like...

Rachel Denning (16:51.448)
rut in the ground, you know, there's some wagon ruts in the ground, that's where the next wagon is going to roll right in those ruts. Because that's the easiest route. It's the same in our brain. Our brain has these ruts. That's why we even say things like I feel like I'm stuck in a rut. Like, it's literally like that. So you have these very, very, very strong neural connections that are like, no,

This is how we do things. I'm not going to change it because one, there's no other place to go. If you want to think of it literally like that, it's because you do not have another strong neural connection to take the place of this one that is already very ingrained. So I like that. I want to expand on it little bit. So you have a deep, deep rep that's just unconsciously or subconsciously just patterns over time. It is, it stops. So to get a vehicle,

out of a rut, if you're driven off road or dirt roads where there's a rut and it's a little bit wet and you're trying to get out of the rut, it is insanely difficult. Right, that's what's happening. Every once in a while you pop up out of the rut and you're like, yeah, I'm a new path and then you slide back in. And then you're trying to get back out. So that's what's happening. You're trying to get out of the rut. Now you go up a couple of times, but that doesn't make a new road yet. It's not a new pathway. It's not a new track that's going to be easy.

You're naturally going to slip back in the old rut until you've driven on the new path so many times that it's easy to stay there.

So, and as he talks about in Atomic Habits, which is a fantastic book, one of the keys to making those changes, to changing your routine to what it is you want, changing the habits to what it is you want, is you have to make it easy to do the new thing you want to do and hard or impossible to do the old thing that you used to do, right? So the ultimate key, and I love this take that he has, is based on changing your environment.

Rachel Denning (18:53.346)
rather than simply trying to have the willpower.

to change it yourself. in this scenario, right, if you were trying to do that, you would change the environment. You would literally dig up the road or fill it with dirt. That's what I was just thinking. In my world, and this is how I've done this, how I've been so successful making massive changes in my life, I'm going to go to the old rut and I'm literally filling those suckers in with rocks. And it's going to be a ton of work. It really is. But I'm going to drastically change my environment so much that the rut is no longer. Yeah. You don't get stuck in the rut again because

because the red doesn't exist. And you're like, well, that's a lot of work. And they're like, well, that's pretty drastic. And I've been accused of being extreme or obsessed or, geez, that's pretty intense. And so much, I'm like, yeah, but I don't have red anymore. That red is gone. I literally filled it with rocks. So a perfect example, again, another good model of this, not only health and fitness.

Well, health specifically, meaning diet specifically, we have literally

in front of our children to emphasize the point we have been extreme in throwing candy down the toilet or throwing cookies in the garbage. mean our kids will bring stuff home from church or whatever and we just take it and we put it in the bin. Well we get it. That makes it sound like they walk through the and grab it out of the can. Give me that crap! little monster! They're like, guys that's So we teach them tactfully. We teach them how to do it. It's really not good for you.

Rachel Denning (20:29.698)
Of course you're free to eat it if you want, but it's really not good for you. It's really garbage. Yeah exactly. what's in that? And we teach them. So they get it. like, but I still like it. And for a while when they're little, especially like I still want to eat it. And they'll be like, I feel gross afterwards. I got a tummy ache. Yeah, because that's garbage. So then they get used to it and we're like, let's just throw it away. So we take it and you see them there contemplating this. Like I know it tastes good. And they put it in the trash can. And that's where it goes.

lungs and so we were reiterating that. and there have been other times for me personally at least when I was studying health and nutrition because my whole story of my dad being diagnosed with cancer one week after we met and then dying from cancer you know I've been sitting. week after Rachel and I met. Yes. Not one week after she met her dad. That's what I meant. One week after you and I met. And then

You know, I've been studying health and nutrition ever since then, learning that the food pyramid is a scam and all of this stuff. And so when I learned about the negative effect of high-proteose corn syrup and seed oils and all of these things, I've literally gone into our pantry, taken things that had those ingredients and thrown them in the garbage. Even though I'm like, this is wasting, blah, blah.

I'm like, I paid money for this. It doesn't matter. That's the type of drastic action we're willing to take. If I'm like, should not be putting this in my body, I'm throwing it in the garbage. So I'm feeling in that rut so I'm not like, why can't I eat healthy? Why can't I stick to my diet? Well, it's easy for me because I don't have anything in my house that violates my diet, right?

So that's the kind of stuff we're talking about. You have to change your environment and then you don't have to use willpower. I'm not gonna buy Oreos and then be like, take it, why can't I stop eating Oreos? I've got them in the house.

Rachel Denning (22:27.67)
That's why. So it's so much easier to not buy them than to bring them home and feed them. That's what we're talking about. That's what we're talking And we keep bringing them home. Another one that came up recently that this just kills me. It just absolutely kills me. think it's because parents don't understand or know. They keep feeding their kids cold cereal.

Cold cereal is toxic sludge. Or even things like giving them orange juice. I just saw Joe Rogan a clip on Instagram where he was talking about that. He's like, if you want orange juice, eat an orange. But if you drink orange juice, it's literally like drinking sugar water. Same with apple juice, grape juice, any juices. But we think we're...

giving our kids healthy things by like, no, get them. I buy the healthy cereal, so I buy just the bran flakes, which are designed to kill testosterone in men. Literally, that's not conspiracy theory. It was straight up conspiracy from these guys who wanted to kill testosterone.

They wanted to be down. They wanted a sex drive to go away. They wanted to make the world a place. So they poisoned people through food. And so I when I'm the brannish legs and skim milk, because you know, know it's fat, and then I them some juice. it's like, you're... you...

are creating the behavioral problems in your child by feeding them those toxins. Yeah, because one of the things we've learned through studying this is that your behavior is directly affected by the food you're putting in your body. so parents are wondering, why are my kids acting like this? Why are they?

Rachel Denning (24:15.6)
Being so, we love to use the word scurvy, like they're so disturbing and annoying. part of the, and you know, again, it's not, there's lots of levels here, but one of the contributing factors is what you're feeding them. It literally is affecting their behavior.

Especially when you're feeding them things that spike their blood sugar and insulin levels like orange juice. I don't know how to emphasize this enough. Give your kids straight meat. Especially first thing in the morning. The very first thing they need is some eggs and Free range eggs, cheese, and meat. That will change your life. Grass-fed ground beef, grass-fed steak, some...

free-range eggs, some bacon, some sausage, and some milk, some plain Greek yogurt, like the fattest, fattest stuff you can get. And just put all of your emphasis on fats and proteins. I promise you'll automatically get enough carbohydrates as you're just grazing throughout the day. So put all of your focus and attention and obsession on fats and proteins and it will change your life and their life.

We haven't got a question yet. This is good. So you wanted to stop. You wanted to say stick to routines. You are sticking to your routine. We talked about how to change that. Would you say routines can be different for different families? Absolutely. 100%. If every family followed the same routine, that would be a dystopian novel, pretty much.

that that's the giver or something, you know, we don't want that. We don't want every family to follow the same exact routine. So when we're talking about what's the best routine, well, ultimately, the best routine is going to be what works best for your family. of course, there is going to be... And we're going to get into this, the differences in the details. So sometimes the routines that work for our family or work for lots of families might not be working for your family. It's not that the routine is wrong. It's that maybe one element of the delivery.

Rachel Denning (26:12.274)
is wrong or one the other aspects which we're going to talk about here in a minute. If we get the other aspects off, well then the routine doesn't work. And so you're like, hey, this routine doesn't work. You said it worked, it doesn't work. It's not the routine. It's these other little details that make all the difference. And you know, I think there are also some things that just may not work for your family at all, you know? And so we're not saying it's one size fits all.

we are again just teaching common denominators that are going to vary for each family because every family is unique. Okay, still though, I'm going to be a little bit, I'm going to be bold and kind of, I'm just going to be bold and frank with that. And I used to think, well no, I'm

Not every family can do these things. It's not for everybody. Every family is unique. But the more I've worked with more families across the world, the more I've studied this, I do wholeheartedly believe there are some common denominators that every single family should do, period.

Like reading. Every family should read and every parent should read to their kids. you're like, wow, that's pretty bold. Every family? Yeah, well, my kids don't like it. It's because you're doing it wrong. And that's how many times at coaching, like, I tried reading my kids and they don't like it. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, what's the details? I'm wait a I'm like, what book are you reading? And he tells me a book. I'm like, that's a great book.

Kids love that book. I'm sitting here trying to figure out the combination lock. I'm okay, it's reading to them, that's great. He's reading the right books, that's great. He's doing it before bed, he's doing it in a positive way. He's bringing them, inviting them. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Why isn't that working? And finally I'm like, well, how are you reading to them?

Rachel Denning (28:01.776)
I'm just reading the book. I'm like, read a paragraph for me. How are you reading it? And it's like so monotone. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, there's the problem. The way you're reading it is so boring. You the most interested kid to sleep. You've got to read it like a dramatist. mean, you've got to.

act out the book. I'm try that." And he gave back going, he's like, they love it. It's amazing. Do the voices and everything. They can't get enough. They love it. There it is. Okay. So that's why. But if we stop there but don't find the detail, then you think, no, like my kid's in library and reading isn't for my family. It is. But that, that being said, still, when we're out,

whatever, there are certain details that are going to be different for every single family. When we say those kind of things, like every family should read it again. It's not a dystopian novel, like six o'clock, it's reading time for all families. It's not that type of thing. You have to find your secret sauce for your unique family to apply that specific principle. So it be reading after dinner. Or in the morning. Or on the couch. Or on the bed. Or if you find what works for you, to be able to do that thing.

Okay.

So she says, I hear different people say work before play. kids need to learn that. Did you have a comment about that? I have lots of comments about Because I was going to say too, especially for young children, playing is work. Playing is their work. Playing is their life. Playing is their life. And playing is how they learn. There was a very famous psychologist called Jean Pige, who was French.

Rachel Denning (29:56.176)
and he just studied children and how they learn. And playing unstructured play is one of the most important things that young children can do. So this whole idea of work before play, no, not with young children. That should not be the case. Now that does not mean that they shouldn't do anything, but you know, like I saw real on Instagram.

This is what makes me think of it. The other day of this mommy influencer teaching how to parent and she's literally forcing her, probably not even two year old child to pick up a spoon and throw it into the garbage. That's my type of idea when I think of work before play, like that's what parents are doing. And not to that extreme of course, but that's. But many are. But many are like that. Like you will pick up your spoon before you can play. Because they grab hold of an idea, some statement. Yeah. Somebody says, hey, you work before play. And on the surface you want to think,

Yeah, that's a good principle. We should be good before we play. And we grab hold of that and we become devout religionists around that principle. totalitarian leaders. Right. And we miss the proper application of the principle. then it's, I would say for a great many people, there's just too much work and not enough play, which is really interesting.

And I'm going repeat that. For a lot of good people, there's way too much work and not enough play. Well, and I think partly because they're not actually playing. Right. I was thinking the same thing. are detoxing. Not detoxing. They're like, what's word they use? like, I just need to... I mean downtime. Downtime. Chillin'. Just need to relax. Unwind. And they do that by scrolling on...

their phone or watching something mindlessly. That's not playing. Or playing, even playing video games. Or No you're not. That's virtual playing. Right. Like all you're doing is like wiggling your thumbs. You're not playing. So watching sports and playing sports? Very different things. Totally different. Playing a video game. called watching and one is called playing. Right. And then having a real adventure? Totally different. Right. Are you watching some...

Rachel Denning (32:07.248)
Bear Grylls thing and you going out backpacking are very different things. And so you get very different results. Most people are not playing enough. And then the irony is then they're still taking this principle and being like, I'm going to make my kids work before they can play when what a child really needs is unstructured play. They need more playtime. And I would say there's probably some sort of diagram or something you could do this where they literally need

non-stop playing and then as they grow older that diminishes diminishes, right? So there's like these diminishing returns so that the amount of play reduces and then it's like it almost becomes non-stop work and they have to be intentional just to add more play back into their life. But what we've done that has worked extremely well in our family

is as we're making those transitions, we make work fun. And an ideal life, and I want to encourage you with all the fervor I can here listeners, I want to encourage you to make your life enjoyable. For you to be enjoyable so that you actually love your work.

that your work is fulfilling and meaningful and when you're doing work, you can actually have fun doing work. That's a leap for a lot of people. I've taught this for years and years years and and I remember people wrestling with it. How can I do work when it's work? How can I have fun when it's work? You can do it, it's possible. Figure out how to fun while you're working. they're like, well, okay, maybe if you're doing that kind of work you enjoy, but what if it's hard work? like, okay, is it possible?

Is there anybody on the planet who can have fun while doing hard work and they wrestle with that?

Rachel Denning (34:01.795)
Well, yes, I guess, hypothetically, it's possible. Well, if it's possible, then you can do it too. Try it. And I remember doing it with a lot of people all time. And they would go just put in this real effort. And they're like, wow, the work day flew by. In fact, the work week flew by. And we had a blast. So instead of complaining and mumbling and grumbling and thinking how much you hated it all week, you actually had fun with it while doing very strenuous, difficult work. And I had fun doing it.

Well, you said another key ingredient there where you're like, as they make that transition from play in childhood to working, is that you actually make the work fun. And that is how you make that transition. So when you're talking about, work before play, well, no, that's not accurate with small kids. And you let them play as much as possible because that's healthier for them, that's healthier for their development, that's easier on you. It really is. It's easier to be a parent when you let especially small children play as much

possible. It will make your life so much easier. It's so much better. But I can hear parents right now, but they need to brush their teeth and they need put their pajamas on and they Which we're going to get to. And they have to clean up and they have to learn responsibility because I don't want my kids not being responsible and so we kill their childhood. Yes. Because we're so afraid they're not going to be responsible adults. it doesn't work like that. The more you allow them to...

play while they are young, the healthier they are going to be and the happier they are going to be and the easier it will be to help them make that transition to responsibility, to work.

to adulthood. But part of how you do that, going back to what you said, is you turn work into play. So you begin to help them work by making work a game. You make it fun. You put music on. You dance. You do it with them. You literally make it fun. And that's how they learn to start working. And they learn to like working, which is what you want them to do. Right. Again, I have all these voices because I've worked with people for so long. I can hear your voice.

Rachel Denning (36:08.738)
in head. as we're talking about, some of are like, but they've got to learn that sometimes you just do things you don't like. Right. You've to learn that life is just hard and you just do it anyways because it has to be done. And to you sir,

question and question that fixed mindset challenge it really truly yes great does life have to be miserable there are things use it's just a grind I think for the most part people who really embrace that mentality it's because they themselves are not very pleasant or happy

They're not very jovial and they have these fixed mindsets. And so they've chosen, probably by default, unconsciously or subconsciously, to be grumpy and unpleasant and gritty like, I hate this, I just have to do it. This is part of being an adult, just doing miserable things. And it's not the thing.

It's you, sir. Because I think it goes back to what you were saying before that, yes, there are definitely things in life that...

you may not want to do, but it needs to be done. But when you learn to change your approach, to change your mindset about it, then you actually can learn to do it without feeling upset, resentful, angry, bitter about the fact that you have to wash the dishes again, and that you'll probably have to wash the dishes again every day for the rest of your life. You know what I mean? Like you instead learn to be like, okay, I'm just gonna embrace this. I'm gonna make it a joyful part of my routine.

Rachel Denning (37:53.442)
Or I'm going to choose to be joyful about it even though needs to be done. This is one of the superpowers that I've developed, deliberately developed over the years. I got into doing very hard, very painful, very challenging things and I kept questioning myself, is it possible to be happy while doing something that's insanely difficult and unpleasant? Sit with them. Is it possible? Yes.

It's possible. So I'm like, I'm gonna try practicing it. And I had to work on it for a long time, but now I can be just grinding in pain, suffering through some kind of challenge, some kind of difficulty, some problem, some problem, whatever, and still be pleasant and jovial and joyful. And I've got to probably like, I'm gonna smile. I'm gonna have fun.

playful conversations while I'm suffering. I've taught my kids to do this. So while we're out doing something insanely hard, some adventure in the wilderness. Climbing huge mountains and frankly, often carrying other people's packs. Teaching myself and my kids, like, we help out. We come in such condition that we can carry other people's loads.

While we're doing it. We're smiling having fun conversations nobody can know how much we are you know our bodies are hurting the muscles are burning because we're just carrying on a fun blast conversation like we're just having a stroll around the park and it's totally possible to do and and to expand on that a little more so there's not

this Mary Poppins or Pollyanna view of it. You know, I know that on that specific trip.

Rachel Denning (39:48.256)
Summit day you're vomiting my son's vomiting. He's got cellulitis in his legs The other two children that made it to the top I mean they told me how hard it was and how miserable it was we're seeing it over yeah harvesting harvesting they've ever done but

So in that moment, it's not like they're joking and whatever. They're just focusing on getting through. But as soon as they're through that same pain of suffering, they're just back to, happy. It's not like, my gosh, that was so hard and now they have to be miserable the rest of the day. Or the rest of their lives. And sign up for therapy because it was the most miserable experience they've ever had. And you you guys were vomiting and our son had the cellulitis in his legs. You.

Here I am in my fancy resort with my two younger children and I get a message from you saying, we're coming. We're coming to you, right? And I'm like, you're supposed to be at the top of the mountain. What's happening? Because you two didn't summit, but you walked off the mountain that day. I mean, I don't even know how far it was. Over 10 months. Yeah. After an After trying to summit. Yeah. And vomiting and you walked off the mountain and that night, I mean, and even Parker that night was throwing up again still.

But you were still smiling and happy and jovial and you know, playing with the little girls and we had dinner together and it was nice. Laughing about you guys vomiting on the bill and jar. So it's like yeah, the suffering is real and it's there. But you can still find the joy in it. Now obviously there are times when you're meant to be greedy. You're meant to be sad. We're not talking about like when your brother died. You didn't make joke out of that.

There is a real time for real sorrow. For real mourning. Yes. For real anger. To fill the whole spectrum of emotions. Yes. In this, I'm just referring to, hey, this is unpleasant work. Even like changing diapers. I had to switch my mindset. Because we had seven kids, and they were packed in close together. And they're all born close to each other.

Rachel Denning (42:06.5)
That was a lot of diapers. For like 10 years. I had poop on my fingers all the time. The stench and the dirtiness. you just needed to get better at changing diapers. But there was explosions. were blowouts all the time. Like blowouts that would get all the way up to their neck. I'm like, how do you get crap to go up? It's like defying the laws of gravity. I'm just throwing away this whole outfit because it's beyond... I'm washing out stuff.

in the ocean and rivers and side of road and a whole package of wipes and I'm like, yeah! And I would get so frustrated about it. I hated it because it's disgusting. But I'm like, wait a minute, what am I doing? Do I want to just be miserable and unpleasant for the next 10 years?

That person is my reality. Like, poop is in my reality. I get peed on all the time. wet, you know, kids wet the bed or pee their pants or whatever it is. And breaking... I'm like, okay, I'm either going to be a really unpleasant, miserable person for years. Or I do all these nasty, dirty things and still be pleasant. My choice. I get a choice. So if you can choose to be miserable and unpleasant or to be pleasant and, you know, at least... at least... I don't know.

Happy. At least neutral. At least neutral. Why would I choose to be miserable? Suffering is inevitable. The disgusting is inevitable. The unpleasant stuff is inevitable. But I don't have to be unpleasant. Right. And I think that it's just because we're taught or we learn through conditioning that...

It doesn't work like that. If you're suffering, you're supposed to be miserable. It's almost like you're required to put on your suffering face because it's suffering time. Put on the long face. Put on the diaper changing face. Let people know how much you're suffering. Okay, back to the question. This is good. I really do feel that this is all good stuff, hopefully you do, because it's important for us to go through all these details and scenarios. So she goes back and she says,

Rachel Denning (44:14.704)
Work over play, we talked about that. I've been playing with my son first thing in the morning. Now in a different email, I think she tells me that he said it. Perfect. So, except When the first time a kid comes into consciousness, like they often want to go right into play. Great. That is great. One of the concerns I have here is that she said, I've been playing with my son first thing in the morning. You don't need to do that. Your child...

should know how to play without you. If you have to make an effort in order for them to play, something's off here. Or if you feel like you have to structure have the obligation to structure their play. That's all. Like I have to be involved, I have to play with them, or I have to have them play a certain way, or I have to protect them in their play. There's a lot of, of course, details there that make the difference. And so I would be interested in hearing more about that.

She does say he used to wake up angry. Now that's interesting because one of the only reasons I think of a child waking up angry is if they're woken up.

Yes, that would be good. you wake them up, they can be angry. I am a firm believer and I 100 % live by this as much as possible. Don't wake your kids up. Do not wake your kids up. When they are sleeping, let them sleep. Now, it wasn't always this way. When we adopted our first, Kaya, Greg and I were early risers. When Greg and I first got married, legit, I'm not joking about this. When Greg and I were newlyweds, we would get up together at 4 a.m. to read and study together. We were total nerds and we would do that. And then I thought when we adopted,

I'm like I'm going to train my children to wake up early so I'm waking up my baby at 6 a.m. every day to get into the habit. That is one of stupidest ideas I've ever had in my life. because this is why we want our kids to be early risers. want our kids to be protective and And we do. I want them to. But we thought let's train them from an early age. It's the dumbest thing we could have done because it's so unhealthy to wake up your kids.

Rachel Denning (46:24.69)
Now, I can hear the voices again, like, wait a minute, I have to wake up my kids to get them ready for school. Take them out of school. That is one of the major, like legit, if I could emphasize this, that is one reason alone to homeschool your kids so you don't have to get them up early. They, one of the most important things they can be doing at that age is getting enough sleep. They should be, because every hour of sleep that they miss out on that they should be getting, it literally lowers, like there's research about this, it lowers.

their functioning, I want to say their functioning IQ, not necessarily their overall IQ, but their ability to function by one grade level. Okay, and let's say for example, because I hear people saying, I can't homeschool right now. Here's what I would do. All we're going to share is what's worked for us and for our clients. And for the millions of homeschoolers that

adamantly in favor of homeschooling or at least home sourcing. You don't have to be the educator necessarily or alternative ways of education. But let's say for example you just cannot do it. Then I legitimately would wait until my child wakes up and then take them over to school. I don't give a crap what anyone else says or when the other kids are there or when class starts. I don't care. I go in, yeah.

child's late yep good morning to you have a great day and then your child's late again yep cuz I allow my child to You research sleep for children since you work with children.

No way in the world am I waking my kid up. And so then I would deal with consequences joyfully. I would actually love that. That would be so fun. Purposely bring your kid to school like 30, 40 minutes late every day. Like, man, he likes to sleep in because it's good for him. You're just killing all these other kids. You monsters.

Rachel Denning (48:34.96)
I would love it because the research is there like all they have to do is like Google it and be like he's totally right what are we doing we should move the entire school schedule back an hour

Yes, no, it's true. It's totally true. it's like in Spain. That's what they do. I think school doesn't start till 10 a.m. or something like that. Which is how it should be. Which is how it should be. Okay. So, so she's playing with him first thing in the morning. He used to wake up angry. So yeah, part of my, again, the details matter, but part of my guess is, is he being woken up and... Man, that's training. Kids...

People do what they've A naturally healthy, here, I don't know how many times we can emphasize this, a naturally healthy child who has their needs met, which means sleep, food, connection with parents, whatever. Love, emotional needs, and natural state is happiness.

They should not be waking up angry and they should be angry throughout the day as long as their needs are being met. Now, this is not to be misunderstood because we have one comp.

One listener comment one time, we did a whole episode about it, meeting your children's needs, and she left this three-star review saying, well, when my children say that they need more screen time, I'm not just going to give it to them. No, that is not what I mean. When I'm saying meet your children's needs, I'm not talking about the things they tell you they need. Well, I need some new clothes, and I need screen time, and I need some handiwork. That's not what I'm talking about, just because they use the word need.

Rachel Denning (50:12.274)
doesn't mean it's an actual need. I'm talking about legit, mesos, hierarchy of needs, mental, emotional, physical needs. That's what I'm talking about. When they have those things met, they're naturally happy. So if he's waiting up angry, there's definitely something going on. Another thing might be...

And depending on how he's been trained, quote unquote, he may know that as soon as he wakes up, he's expected to do something and he doesn't want to So that he wakes up to this reality he doesn't like. Yeah, he's waking up to, have to do something that I'm being forced to do and I don't want to do it. So allowing him to play, and this is a good step, but she's been playing with him, that's great. Any control, any manipulation, any forcing, any...

If you make him angry there's a septic that something on a big level is off Something's off in his world world and he doesn't know what else to do about it except get angry As soon as he wakes up because he doesn't know what else to do now I can definitely see that this can happen especially if kids are going to school because they're waking up from a young age like this one seven and They're being forced to do things. They don't want to do to get ready to go to school someplace. They don't

to be and so yeah naturally I can imagine there's gonna be a lot of anger and frustration and tears and fighting it doesn't have to be that way another reason we promote homeschooling but yeah even if you have to take them to school for now find a different way you know

Even because one thing I thought and I don't know if you can do this in younger grades, but at least in high school, you don't have to have a first period, right? And so you just miss that period. That's what I'm saying. I'm going to skip it. Yeah. I don't give a crap.

Rachel Denning (51:57.552)
And we have to get to this point where we put our kids first. We have to be pushing back against the system in some way because otherwise the system will remain unchanged. so you listening are questioning our sanity. And so we're inviting you look around right now. Look at how it's working. Look at the whole system and see how it's working. We have an absolute crisis of mental, physical, and emotional health.

Yeah, absolutely. crisis. It is a serious, wide-scale problem. it is not working at all. Clearly, the evidence is against the whole system, the whole system. Everything they're doing is broken. And compare that to not only our own family, but lots of families we know where our children don't wake up angry.

They're not forced to do something they don't want to do. They're excited to get up. They're happy. They can't wait to start their day. And they're engaged in wonderful, exciting, amazing things. Like the last few days has been spent water coloring. They've been doing from our youngest to our oldest at home, all the solder. They're doing water colors. Like there's so much fun and creativity and play and learning that's happening. There's no crying. There's no fighting. There's no anger,

here staying in our resort right now and it's just unstructured play for hours and hours and hours. It's so awesome. Okay and she says that she had heard some parenting advice was to play or have special time with them before you need them to cooperate with you. Well that goes back to essentially the emotional bank account that we'd love to talk about. You do need to be making deposits into your child's emotional bank account if you

want to make any withdrawals and asking your child to do something is despite what many parents think that is actually making withdrawal.

Rachel Denning (53:50.159)
If you ask your child to brush their teeth or you ask them to get dressed, that can be making a withdrawal from their emotional bank account. So yeah, you have to have an bank account there in order to have cooperation from them. So that is true. I think, and this is where I wanted to get into one particular principle for this entire conversation. We've made all kinds of tangents here that fit. But this, what I'm about to say is the whole thing.

Your demeanor as a parent, as a person, your emotional state is the energy that is generated and radiated in the home and family and in the relationships. So if my demeanor is off, if my state is off, if it's low, if it's negative, if it's serious, if it's grumpy, if it's bleh.

that's what radiates and that's what the kids pick up and absorb and then model. So even if I'm checking all the boxes, yeah, they'll magnify it too or they'll take it in a different direction where you kind of want, I know I should do this, but they don't know that. So they take the energy you're giving them and they go somewhere else with it. I don't intend that, but that's what you gave them. So if I'm checking the boxes, so I hear some parenting experts say, you should play with your kids.

I'm gonna add that to my list.

to do this, play with child. And so you go there like, let's play. But you're still miserable, unplayable, to be irritated. I don't have time to play right now. And I've had the opportunity to speak on a lot of stages with the keynote speakers, do presentations, seminars, webinars. And I love to ask people what their predominant emotion is. Because we're trying to find out what's your state on a given week or a given day. What's the honest emotion you feel most of the time?

Rachel Denning (55:51.154)
For adults, it's irritation, frustration. That's the most common answer. If I'm totally honest with myself, I'm irritated or frustrated most of the time. That's very, very true for moms. Moms, if they're not really conscious and aware and self-aware and they're not deliberately choosing a better emotion, most moms, and well, that's her grumpy, angry, irritate, whatever, but they're operating in a state of irritation. So if you're...

unconscious emotional state, your demeanor is mostly irritation even while you're checking the play box and do the chores box and brush teeth in your ready box. What you're radiating is irritation. Right. Well how does that show up in your kids? Sometimes anger, sometimes resentment, fighting, bitterness, dejectedness. Non-cooperation. exactly. Well and the other key to this because I know a lot of moms are like, but I'm very good at managing that.

I'm managing my irritation. I'm managing my frustration. We're like, okay, great. But that's like wearing a mask. Yeah, that's not really the point. We're talking about you're using this word demeanor. You're talking about like your essential way of being or like how you're actually feeling and what you're actually radiating. So if you're controlling and managing your irritation and frustration, that's very different than actually feeling happy. That's symptom management versus cure. Exactly. So we're talking about

about literally getting into a positive state rather than being in or managing and controlling a negative state. It's a very different thing. So that's what you mean by this demeanor. Like have your demeanor, have the energy you're bringing to these interactions with your children be from a positive state, not one of...

Annoyance or I have to help them make them do this thing or try to persuade them to do this thing but you're coming from a place of like Kind of angst right so visit dad, and maybe I'm you know okay, so my life was rough Starting as a kid and I ended up leaving almost 16. That's a rough time So I can hold on to that and I get consciously or subconsciously be bitter and angry at life life just sucks It's just hard, and then I could have a job that I don't

Rachel Denning (58:14.674)
like and I feel unfulfilled and I feel like I should be farther along in life and I feel like life's just unfair and it's the government and the IRS and all the crime and terrible things in the world, evil people and people just have to get you and life just sucks and I have those going but I manage them. So I put the mask on and I'm managing this deep anger, bitterness, pissed-offness.

at the whole world and everything that's gone wrong in it and know the neighbor this and the employees that and the economy that whatever but that's what's radiating out and kids pick up on it. Kids are amazing they can see through masks and they can't articulate it they can't point it out they see right through it so they know what's really there so and the reason I brought it up right at that moment because

If I go with that demeanor, that true state, and I, from that space, even if I put on the show or the facade, and I try to ask them to do their chores, I'm still doing it from my demeanor. I cannot get away from who I am.

So this is Parker Palmer. That's why I going to say, Parker Palmer. The Courage to Teach. Yeah, he has a great book about that. he says, essentially. You teach what you are. Right.

And I think that that's 100 % true with parenting or with being in a marriage. Like you cannot get away from that. So all of your interactions, regardless if you're doing or saying the right thing, you can't get away from who you are. And so you are essentially radiating who you are. that is the, I would be bold enough to say that's probably the primary.

Rachel Denning (01:00:04.032)
influence.

that is affecting your interactions with your child or with your spouse. Regardless, again, regardless of doing and saying all the right things, who you are comes out the strongest. It can't not. None of us can avoid it. None of us can hide it. I don't care what the subject is we're teaching or what interaction is. can't get away from where you are. Where you go, there you are. There's a book called The good news is you can change who you are. That's really good news.

I'm stuck this way so great. What do mean is my poor kids have no hope because this is who I am. No, not at all. Change.

and change ways you even think, but you have to change. I want to emphasize this because I can ask my kids to do things, even hard things, without making it a withdrawal because of who I am and the way I do it. And because of the emotional bank account balance you have with them as an effective method. Right, but I have huge deposits, but I can even make asks and can even make demands. I can even sometimes correct them.

And simultaneously we get a pause instead of a drill. Because of how I roll. So I can ask them to do work and to get things done.

Rachel Denning (01:01:19.952)
without being a drain, that my kids resent it, they don't like that I'm asking them to do things, because of how I am. And it's so important to emphasize that. I can get my kids, and I've always greeted my kids, every single morning, since we adopted our first, so it's 22 years, I greet my kids with enthusiasm, a smile, excitement for life, so they've learned to wake up, they're like, woo hoo, another day of life. Yeah, and that's another good,

ingredient here, know, when we're talking about children waking up angry or, you know, making these deposits in order to ease cooperation later in the day. I mean, that is something I would say we have done. That's one of the things in life I think I could say we've done, if not 100%, at least 99 % of the time.

Every single day we are in the same house as our children, right? When we're gone, it doesn't count. We greet them in the morning with a hug and a kiss. And a smile. a smile. enthusiasm like, hey, it's a new day, it's great to see you. day. Like, that's something I don't think we've never not done. Right.

And that's made a huge, again, when we talk about the details and the nuances and the things that make a difference, you might think, that's not very.

Big bang wouldn't really make that big of a difference. But over time, it builds and it builds and it builds and it stacks in a positive direction. So that that then becomes part of this filling of their emotional banking on this. It's a regular deposit every single day. And so we're building that with them.

Rachel Denning (01:03:06.768)
And that is why we have more cooperation or we can ask our things and it's not a withdrawal. Now obviously there's a lot more things we're doing as well, but that's one of the foundational pieces that makes a big difference. And just think about it for a minute, psychologically and emotionally. When every single day of your life somebody is excited to see you when you wake up. Yeah.

Somebody cares about you and they're like, you're awake, come here, give me a hug, yes, I love you, good morning, how are you, how'd you sleep? And it is, it's that approach. And so that becomes the way of being of interacting with our child, where we're legitimately, because we're not faking, excited to see that they're awake and...

It's a new day. Now I can understand that because I do remember this when I was younger that sometimes I wasn't always excited they were awake because I'm like, now my work begins. You know, didn't even get a break.

But I learned to train myself to not allow that feeling to remain. I would quickly process that and be like, no, I'm glad to be a mother. I'm grateful to be a mother. I'm grateful to have this work. I'm grateful that my child is awake. I'm grateful my child is alive. Whatever I have to use to bring that real feeling of gratitude, I'm like, no, I'm glad to see that. And what you said was so important, Rachel, because you didn't try to mask it. Right. I wasn't just covering it. Feeling resentment and dread, I'm

mask it real quick for them. didn't say that. You said I'm going to remove that feeling and replace it a genuine excitement. I'm do whatever I have to do, change my state and demeanor so I can engage in authenticity. Right. But if...

Rachel Denning (01:04:55.6)
If our children wake up and immediately we have some sort of battle with them, especially because as this goes on, you know, there's a few things they need to do before breakfast, which this is something we teach, right? But we need you to understand that there's a lot of details in this. We're more teaching these types of things, and I know it can come across because people come to stay with us. We just expect you guys to be like, hardcore, no fun. know, do the work. Like, trail sergeant, military camp family. That's not who we are. You know, they need to brush their teeth before breakfast.

that you need to do with the morning routine. She says it's still something he likes to revel about.

Especially because he's a little boy. Right. mean that's normal. Your daughters will do that way more easily than your boys will. That's just the nature. A little boy wakes up and he's like, I have to clean myself and make my head. Our older boys still do this. They're like 14 and 19. They're like, you need to your teeth. You mean I have to shower more than once a week? Yeah. But it's just nature of being a male.

So you have to make it more fun. Right. it playful. Like yeah go do it. And again how you how you invite them to do it and then how you insist that they do it delivery matters. Tact matters. The emotional state matters. I can totally correct my kids and I can hold a firm firm boundary in such a pleasant way that they don't even know like

They don't even know what's going on. Wait, am I being correct in here or I'm having some quality time with Dad? Like what's going on? And there will still, there can still be some discomfort or some, you know, little bit of wriggling from the pressure, so to say, mentally and emotionally, right? But they know that even though you're serious, it's done with love and we can still have fun with it.

Rachel Denning (01:06:57.22)
Like we can have fun about, you know, pointing out where you need to improve.

And you and I try to do this too. Often, playful would be like, haha, yeah, you need to get better at that because that sucks, right? Like, come on here, babe. We can make it playful while still offering that correction or that feedback. The critics will say, no, these are serious things. And if you want your kids to take it seriously, you have to be serious. And you have to be angry or upset or say harsh things.

Or you have to, again, you have to be serious because it is serious. Again, we just step back and say, look at the evidence. Look at the proof. You're serious about it. Is that working? Does that mean they never do it again? Do they never, you you're little kids, they never make the same mistakes because you told them with your angry voice, did that work? No, it worked for a little bit. And they just did it because they're afraid of you. So.

We can get the results and we have the proof. We have the results. can discipline and correct and teach in a pleasant way and they will get it. Yeah, and it does require some experimentation because the way you do it is different than the way I do it and vice versa and the way another parent is going to do it. We're not saying you have to do it exactly the way we're talking about, but we're saying experiment with it. Instead of thinking I have to do it this certain way and it's not working because you're not getting those results or it is

quote-unquote working, but it has the cost of emotional distance with you and your child, then try different things. Experiment with including, like we're talking about, playfulness, where you can find a way to get the results without damaging the relationship. Playfulness or pleasantness. Yeah. Just figure out how to, I guess that's my big invitation today, figure out how to do all your parenting.

Rachel Denning (01:08:59.448)
with a pleasant demeanor. It's so much more enjoyable. It's easier. Your children are more responsive. They're more likely to do it. They're more likely to want to do it.

Well, okay, I've got to mention a caveat here, because I think a lot of times when we say that type of thing, people are imagining gentle parenting where you never get after your kids. And I want to add that that's not the case. In fact, I firmly believe there are times when you really do need to get after your kids.

But I want to emphasize that that should be rare. If you feel that you have to do that on a daily basis, something is wrong. I am talking about, yeah, I will use that when I need to, but that's usually a couple times a year. Maybe. I think a perfect example is when early on when our kids would disrespect you. Yes. Like, we'd be around working and do something, and they would say or do something that was quite disrespectful to you.

And again, I didn't insult them, didn't yell and scream, but I went over and said, that is my wife. And nobody on this planet is allowed to talk to my wife like that, including you. You apologize to her, and you will never, ever do that again. I am dead serious. That is absolutely unacceptable. That's a time to be serious. And that put a stop to it.

And I put a sock to it with the older kids, and so the younger kids never really, they just learned, they just like damn done it. But I think the reason why that's also more effective is because that's not your general way of being. You don't interact with them like that all the time. so, and that's kind of once or twice per kid, period.

Rachel Denning (01:10:55.44)
And that's kind of the point I'm making here is like, yeah, most of the time we are going to engage pleasantly with our children. We're going to be playful. We're going to have fun. They're going to know we're serious. But they also do know that we're serious because there have been those times when we were like, no, this is enough. But they...

That is rare because we save it for when we really mean it and when they really have crossed a line. Which is rare. When you're operating pleasant and you're loving each other and taking care of all the needs. You're those emotional deposits. Things are good. The times they cross the line are so rare and they barely step across the line so you correct them there. We haven't had any kids just barreling off the cliff with insanity because we prevent it by living a good life and then we stop.

it when they get to the edge. But whoa, we're not even going there. Yeah, now I would like to add to this because our oldest daughter and I were talking about some things because they were helping to care for some children that were have been in foster care and had, you know, I mean they had some legitimate

Essentially mental emotional issues at a young age. I mean, they're still very young but they have these and so I would add that that in a case when you are trying to Retrain a child. I would definitely include more a little bit more Authoritativeness

I'm not talking about manipulation and control. there would be a little, yeah, I'm not talking about tyranny. there would definitely be some, especially when you're trying to establish those boundaries, because they don't know about them. They don't know about the boundaries. I would definitely be a little firmer and a little, I want to use harsher, but I don't want that to be misinterpreted.

Rachel Denning (01:12:42.178)
to help establish those boundaries, but then I'm allowing this freedom, I'm allowing play, I'm allowing their natural inclinations to occur, and when they reach a boundary, I'll give them warning, like, here's the boundary, and if they cross the boundary, I'm gonna be serious about the consequences, but otherwise, I'm gonna be like, no, go ahead, here, play, enjoy yourself, be a child, right? So it's kind of this mix of this...

It's not really gentle parenting because I don't want to use that. feel like has such a, it can have such a negative connotation for people where it's like, can I have permission to touch you? You know, no, we're not talking about that type of thing.

But we are... we have permission to correct you. Yeah, that's like kind of tough, right? I don't agree with And we even do this, just because of our lifestyle and we're having families in our world all the time. We even do this with other people's teens or toddlers or whatever. They come into our space, they come into our world. Hey, here's the boundary. And we set the boundaries. And we do it in a pleasant way that they're like, yeah. And they always thrive. From toddlers to teens, they always thrive in our space.

And they'll come and stay with us for weeks or months, which has happened. We've been in that now for 15 years and They thrive they love it because it has clear boundaries mixed with total freedom. Yes, and it's just loving gentle happy place

think in our last episode about the fortress, talking about the fortress and then you hold the boundaries of that fortress, but within that fortress, there's a lot of freedom. You pretty much get to decide when, where, how you do things within the boundaries of the fortress. So it is a very unique style, but it's one that's very effective because it's providing that space for children to thrive.

Rachel Denning (01:14:37.168)
Okay, just to close here, I think it's great, think I've heard a lot of great things. You know, but she's talking about, essentially I think the routine here that's challenging her the most at the moment is she wants her child, and this is her oldest child, that's seven, still very young, and that's one of the challenges with having the oldest. You feel like they're so old. Only child, or are there young adults? I am not sure, but I think there are others that may not. Sometimes the...

But an only child dynamic is challenging. And the oldest child dynamic is always challenging. Because they always feel like they have to do the most and carry the most love and be the most responsible. They just feel like they have this burden of being the oldest. And there's a lot of truth to that. But there's also a great benefit to that. We don't have to burden them more than they already feel burdened just because they're Well, and as a parent, I know from myself that I viewed my oldest being so old

Even though now I look back at our youngest right now, seven. And I think that's still so young. And she mostly just plays all day. Especially now that she has friends here. But when our oldest was seven or eight, had four other kids. And we're like, you're so big. You're grown up. You should be to cook clean and sew an iron already. But it's hard to have the contrast because you have a little baby.

You know, so she's trying to get these routines and again still and that being said yes every single morning my seven-year-old makes her bed gets dressed and brushes her teeth like that's just a part of the routine she does that and she's learned to do that so it's possible to have that I'm when I say she plays all the time I'm not saying she doesn't do anything else. She definitely does she has her routines she knows what to do she she follows those I guess though we we implemented routines as a very positive thing a very great so exactly

The training process, needed routines, we did it so pleasantly that they just wake up and do it now. It's on a back to default. They do it joyfully. So they wake up, before they even get out of bed, they're making their beds, and brush their teeth, they change, they straighten things up, and it's just part of starting a day. So there's no grumpiness, there's no complaint, there's no drudgery, they're not like, do I have to do this? They just get up and do it, and they're happy to be alive and well. And we made the routine a positive thing. You always have to make whatever you want them to do attractive.

Rachel Denning (01:17:06.034)
And so back, know, because she's saying that he's rebelling against that. usually when children choose to rebel against something, it's because it's their way of trying to build some sort of control in their life. So I would look at that, would back up and take a look. Like, how am I making my child feel that I'm controlling their life instead of them being in control? Because back to what you're saying, we did always make them feel like this is your choice.

This is why you should do it.

Here's the reasoning behind it. They understood at their level, that makes sense. I need to brush my teeth every day, especially first thing in the morning, because my mouth was filling with bacteria, and I need to get those little bugs off and clean my teeth and get them clean. They've understood the reasoning about why we were asking them to do things, and they opted in to do it, which is now why they just do it without being asked, because they're the ones that chose it. They're the ones that saw why it was important. They were the ones that decided to do it.

So, but when a child feels like you're trying to control them and you're trying to make them do all the things, that's when they rebel. You can't rebel against yourself, right? If I'm the one that chooses to do it, I can't rebel against myself. So they can only rebel if they feel that you are forcing them to do it. So we just have to change those dynamics there so that it's no longer about me forcing you to do something or me requiring you to do something. It's like, hey, I am...

inviting you to do this thing and I will invite with positive consequences on occasion with negative consequences if necessary. did it, well I did that with what we do with our kids and I did it with some teens who staying with us and they want to go to beach and I just happened to pass past the room and said hey, your bed's not made. You're not in the world, you're riding in my truck over to the beach if that bed's not made.

Rachel Denning (01:19:04.4)
and you should have seen him run. I mean, they're in there, you know? And then he would forget occasionally, and so instead of like, I told you, what's wrong with you? no, instead of that, I'd be like, what? I made this big dramatic deal, like what? No, no way, like what? Somebody snuck into your room and undid your bed. Like, that is messed up. Like, who would do that?

I'm confident you made it this morning and somebody snuck in there and made it look like you didn't make it. That is so messed up. And so this big playful thing, it was in front of everybody, right? And then that kind of came the ongoing joke. But in a way I was I was disciplining, was replying, was correcting. hey, you should be making your bed. How could you not have made your bed? You know, like what is this? Why would anyone get up at your age, anyone get up and not make their bed? That's crazy. Somebody must have sabotaged you.

They don't want you go to the beach for some reason. And so you keep emphasizing it and it's in a totally playful way but the message is landing. and so like with a younger child of this age you know for me the motivation has always been food. Now not the manipulation, not the control but like hey I will make you some food why don't you go make your bed and brush your teeth while I'm doing it. know. Or now they make their own food right?

Okay, but that now gets us into the next level here. Because there are definitely levels, just as we talked about before, think that sometimes you can do the right thing at the right time, but if you don't have the right kind of relationship, that's too big of an ask. So yes, my seven year old now, she can make her own food when she wakes up. But she's still not allowed to eat and make her own food if she hasn't done Because that was a previous expectation that we created of like, in order for you to earn your breakfast, because I buy it.

And in this case when I'm training them, prepare it for you to earn your breakfast. It's kind of a trade-off in that case. I'm saying I will make you your breakfast.

Rachel Denning (01:21:12.912)
And this was a potential part of my training process. I will make breakfast for you, but you get to eat it once you have done these things. And she says here, should I just start with one thing like brushing your teeth before adding more, like getting dressed before breakfast? Then I can add more once he accepts it? Yes. I would say, I'm going to use the word always, I've always done it that way. do not, it's always incremented.

because it's so much easier to win on one teeny little battle. Well, and then you to win. They want to feel to win. Exactly. And then you praise them for that. Good job. And they get the reward. And then once that's now automatic, then I add the next thing. And I'll even warn them. I'll be like, you have been doing so well at brushing your teeth before breakfast. Now we're going to get dressed and brush your teeth before breakfast. Because as a proven principle, one stack wins. Exactly. Yes. Like set it up.

What do you call it? know, rigging the game in their favor. So they win all the time. That may be even like a week or two weeks where they do just brushing the teeth. And I will continue to praise it. They continue to get the reward. And then I will add to it. And depending on how well they respond, then I will add more things. I don't, because one of the biggest problems parents have, and this comes up often in my family systems and charts, is that they want to do

all the things at once. They feel like my house is chaos, I'm gonna change it all. They go in, they create these huge charts with like 27 things to do and then they're like, here kids, do these charts every day and the kids are just overwhelmed. It's too much. But if you build it incrementally, when you're like, hey, we're starting with brushing your teeth. That's what you're doing this week. You're gonna get up, you're gonna brush your teeth and that becomes a habit and then you add one habit, you know, one more habit and then one more habit and you do that and you might

Well, that's gonna take forever. It's gonna take a year. It doesn't matter. It's gonna last for a lifetime That's the point you're creating lifelong habits So it's okay if you just have one week or three a month when they're teens like in our case We don't know you know getting back to some of our boys. I do still have to learn to brush our teeth sometimes But they're like our two boys make their bed religiously their room looks amazing which is rare

Rachel Denning (01:23:38.546)
for teenage boys. In fact, mother came to visit and this is the irony too because you know because I am high in conscientiousness and industriousness I have higher standards of cleanliness and I thought the room's a little bit messy but I didn't say anything and she went in and was like what a clean room you know I'm like yeah you're right it is clean you know because I forget like for a teenage two teenage boys sharing a room that's often a disaster and there's just a little bit messy as well.

I want to give as many specific tools or responses as possible. So as they come to mind, just want to share them. You'll often, as you're adding more things to the list, you'll often get kickback from a kid like, ugh, that'll take forever. And in that response, instead of getting in an argument with them or a battle or whatever, I'll just be like, forever.

Let's time it. Okay, I'm gonna hit start. And I'll turn it into a game. I'm gonna hit start, let's watch. I want you to go make your bed and make it look fantastic. Do it as quick as you can. Let's see if it gets to forever on my phone. And then they come back, it was like 45 seconds or 60 seconds.

There you go, 60 seconds. You nailed it. Like, wow, that was awesome. OK, not even close to forever. And so you just do playful ways to kind of frame things up.

Or you might say, it takes five minutes, five minutes to go and then they come back in two. Look at you, that's amazing. You're so fast, you did it so well. Wow, that's great. Okay, so now you're going on the list. And I think I might also start with a list of ten things, but not require the ten things initially. So you're setting the expectation, like hey this is where we're going. Eventually we're gonna do all this, but let's make sure, let's insist that two or three are getting done and then we'll build on it.

Rachel Denning (01:25:39.282)
that too and then...

it becomes more of a negotiation which also helps them feel that they have a little more power because they'll be like hey here's all the things I want you to do and they'll be like that's going to take forever type thing and then today just do this first one that's all that you need and then suddenly they're like okay that's easy because I can do that or I'll say just do the first two or whatever and now suddenly they feel like that's so much easier but I'll will emphasize eventually we'll get to the whole thing but for now just do these and they always feel like that's totally

doable I'm I'm pulling one over on mom here yeah we can do it without things like this new song came out could we buy it or this new movie's coming out there's your list bro that's your list go ahead if you hit everything on that list this week for sure you and I

Or my kids, my teens just asked me that today. knew Brandon Sanderson's book came out and I've been waiting for two years. They're like, will you buy it? And I was like, you wash all the windows for me? Yeah, I will buy it. That's what happened because the windows got cleaned. That's awesome. So there you go. It's perfect. And so we've taught this so many times, we're going keep teaching it. Stop saying no and say yes if or yes but, yes when.

And do that so you're like can we buy it? No, we're money grows on trees around here is buying another silly fiction fantasy You don't even help me out. You don't even watch the windows Yeah, all you do is sit around on your book. No, I'm like, yeah, of course. I'd be great You're switching the energy you're changing around making it a positive environment so the negative one by focusing on

Rachel Denning (01:27:28.688)
what they want included with what you want and then it's like this wing wing. And you're teaching them. Always, always, always teaching them. You're the mentor. Well, that's our new parenting course that's coming out. It's the parent, the parent-mentor. You're constantly mentoring. But everything in life is earned. And I think one of the greatest disservices that many moms do, it's more of mom thing than a dad thing, is moms, in order think they're being good moms, do way too much for their kids. Way, way, way too much.

They're making all their meals. They're doing their laundry. They're waking them up. I'm like, no way. If your kids are, I don't know, well, let's say teens specifically.

If your kids are teens and there's something that they need to be up for, they need to wake themselves up. You think, no, I'm going help them. I'm going to make sure they're not late. So literally, you're stepping in and preventing all the natural consequences. It would teach them lessons. They would learn a lesson. You're like, no, but I'm paying for that. They're going to be late. So?

How else are they going to learn? They will never learn as long as you, mom, keep doing it for them. That's why they go to college and end up having all these consequences because mom's not there to help them. And they're just completely incapable and lazy as teens. And a lot of moms are like, they don't know how. Let them go hungry. Let them go hungry for a couple days. Guess what's going to happen? They will learn how to cook.

And they will. Bam. again, we've had teens come to say this for long time. So they'll come and like, I don't know how to cook. I I don't know, I'm hungry. And that's my thoughts. like, well, go hungry. They learn how to cook. All of sudden, they're figuring out how to cook something, make something delicious. And then you see them making this amazing meal. And you're like, look at you go, 13 years old, and rocking something amazing. Or they'll come and be like, I don't have any clean clothes. I'm like, why? They're all dirty.

Rachel Denning (01:29:24.398)
Why? No one washed them. Like... What? No one doesn't live here. What in the world? Is that like some little gnome that comes around washing your clothes named No One? Like what in the world? Who washes your clothes? You dirty them, you wash them. Like... I you wash them. Go naked. don't care. Like, well, I nice clothes. Then you're going in your dirty ones and you'll be embarrassed.

Well, I'm a close stink. Then you're gonna stink. We're gonna go meet this new family, you this cute girl, and you're gonna reek. Natural consequences, sucker. And so you let them have the natural consequences, and all of sudden, guess what? They learn how to use the washer and dryer. And they keep on a schedule, and they take care of themselves because you stop taking care of them at appropriate ages, incrementally. But man, it just kills me.

see good moms wanting to be good moms doing too much for their older kids. Okay, that it? Lots of awesome thoughts today. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. Practice this deep self-awareness. It's challenging. Self-awareness is challenging. And then situational awareness and people awareness. You start reading people.

reading your kids, yourself, and then altering your demeanor because we are 100 % responsible for the energy that we bring and what we're radiating out. We're always radiating something. We never avoid that ever. Never get away from it. So choose to radiate what you want to radiate, not just letting some default happen. OK. Let me guess. Reach upward.