#297 Is It a 'Sin' That We Are So CERTAIN About What We Preach on This Podcast?

Greg & Rachel Denning (00:47.477)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your host, Greg and Rachel Denning.

Today we're answering a very thoughtful question that when we got, man we got all excited about it and we spent a lot of time talking about it and I've been thinking about it for days, excited for this episode because it is...

Interesting. intriguing, a little difficult and probably something we all can relate to and maybe go back and forth on or have certain aspects where it really affects us. And I don't know, just a really interesting and I think fun conversation and topic. Yeah, it came after our I think it was our last episode where we talked about how to deal with in-laws or maybe it was two episodes ago, but.

you know, how do you deal with in-laws, especially those that oppose your extraordinary life choices? And in a, it was kind of a response, but also just a sincere curiosity. We received this question from some, I don't know if they want to be anonymous or not, but I'll keep them anonymous for now, because I don't remember. And it did spark some very interesting conversations between you and me and our son who is here, because all of our,

older children are gone, living their lives except for our three youngest and they were not involved in the conversation. anyways, it was just fun to talk with him about it. And I thought he had some really great insights as well about it. And so we want to dig into that, dig into it, analyze it, talk through it. And as we were discussing it, there's definitely two different aspects of it that- There's probably a hundred different aspects of it.

Greg & Rachel Denning (02:41.263)
to that stood out in my mind. And so I want to talk through those because I think that it's very fascinating the way that it applies in different areas of our lives, like religion for one, life choices for another. So yeah, I'm excited. So dig into it. The question was sparked by

a scene from a movie and I'm excited to watch the movie. Yeah, but in relation to I think also to that podcast episode where and well and she said she watched the movie heard the quote and then a couple days later listened to our podcast and was like, how does this fit? Yeah, basically in the quote, it's religious setting. It's in the Catholic Church. They're trying to choose a new pope. Well, and one of the Cardinals gets up. Do you have it there? I have it pulled up. So the movie is called The Conclave. Have not seen it.

but the Cardinal is giving a speech right before they are going to vote on the selection of a new Pope. And the part... We watched the scene and he kind of stops, you know, his written, he, takes his written prepared speech, sets it down, really kind of speaks from the heart. Right. And says some interesting things. And the, the part that he talked about, the quote that he said has to do with certainty. And...

I mean, I actually don't have the quote that he said here because we watched it, but it was essentially like, certainty is a sin. Like being certain. Oh, and it was something about, it creates disunity. Well, it was two points. He's like, if we have absolute certainty, then there's no more mystery. Yes. And so no need for faith. And he says it...

prevents unity. it causes division among people. If you're so certain, then it keeps you separated from others. essentially that was what he was saying. That was the gist of it. And I thought it was very fascinating as we watched that scene, but the person who sent us this comment or question said his comments came to mind again after watching your episode number 276 just now.

Greg & Rachel Denning (05:02.915)
I love listening to it to hear what's behind your choices to achieve your goal of living an extraordinary life. Anyway, I thought you might find the comments from his movie interesting considering the perceived certainty, potential or not, you both have on the many topics you discuss in your podcasts. Now, anyone who's listened to more than one of our podcasts can, I think, very clearly come across the idea that we're very certain about the things we talk about.

that we speak with certainty, right? I don't think that's something we try to hide. And I do feel very certain about the things that we say. And we're gonna talk about all of that today, why that is. I think it's important to point out though, that there's a lot of things we don't talk about on the podcast. And I know for me at least, the reason I don't talk about them.

is because I don't have that level of certainty. exactly. So if I don't, if we take a topic and I'm like, you know, I don't know, I haven't researched it enough, I don't have enough personal experience with it, I'm not passionate about it. I don't know that much about it. Then I'm not that certain about it. and so I'm not gonna talk about And I think that's important distinction because you're right, if people listen, I'm probably like, geez, these guys are just dah, dah. seems really- Certain about everything. Right.

We're deliberate about talking about things we do have certainty in because we have read and studied and practiced and experimented with it not only in our own lives but with our clients and friends and people we've been able to impact and influence and coach. That's what gives us certainty. It's beyond just our personal experience because a personal experience can give you quite a bit of certainty. But when it works for other people as well, a lot of people, you're like, okay, there's a lot here.

And if you can find evidence across time and space, other cultures, history, like, okay, there's some real certainty here. If I don't have that, I'm not going to pull up and like, I don't know, I'm thinking of funny examples. Like I'm not going to do a podcast on your tennis swing or your golf swing. like to pick on tennis. It just comes to mind. like, I don't know anything about those things. So I'm not going to...

Greg & Rachel Denning (07:23.343)
I'm not gonna do a podcast episode on something I'm like, I don't know. Right. So, and I definitely want to get into more of that, why we have that certainty in those areas. But you're right. By the very nature of this podcast, we are speaking about the things we have certainty about. There are plenty of things that if you just pull us off the street and we're gonna have a conversation with us about them, we'd be like, I don't know.

I have no clue. Right. And that would be interesting for a lot of people. And they've expressed that. Like, they come, we have conversations. They're like, well, you guys aren't as bold. I'm like, well, it's because we're talking about something that we're like, no, that's interesting. Let's talk about it. What about this? And what about that? So I'm asking questions. I'm learning. I'm not making, you know, declarative statements because on all of those other topics, which literally are probably infinite, I'm going to be, yeah, interesting. I don't know. What do you think? No, I don't know.

And I'm not gonna make bold statements, but you come across something where I've spent a lot of time and energy and experience with it. I've got some things to say. Right, exactly. Which are the topics we talk about on our podcast. But it goes on, I just wanna add this. I'd like to pose this question to you as perhaps fodder for another podcast. Is there room for doubt? As suggested by the Cardinal, which we're gonna talk about. And you just touched on that.

Or are you always certain that your decisions and choices on how to navigate this life are the way everyone should also do things? Very great question. Because if you're certain, then according to the Cardinal's remarks, that leaves no room for unity or tolerance, which isn't necessarily a good thing. So, Okay, the first thing we have to address there is even in our boldness and certainty,

Am I bold enough to say it's for everybody? No. Right. And so we have to pull back from the scales. Nobody and everybody are on the far ends of the scales and we pull back from that on most things. I guess there are a couple things I'd say, yeah, everybody should do this or try this or... Or could be beneficial for everybody. But can I boldly click everybody? No, I'm going to pull way back from that because there's so many scenarios, so many situations we've met.

Greg & Rachel Denning (09:44.675)
tens of thousands of people across 60 plus countries from every walk of life, from total illiteracy and extreme poverty to unbelievable wealth and education and physical handicaps and mental and emotional handicaps and everything in between. So to make a bold declarative statement that everyone should live like this, hope we don't come across like that or say that.

into the everybody. I will be bold enough to, you know, make some declarations near the top of like, you know, almost everybody should try this. Well, and I think especially again, going back to the purpose of this podcast, just like we already said, we're all we're talking about things we are certain about. And we're also talking to people who listen to this podcast, who are people who are interested in creating.

and extraordinary family life. Like that's a unique demographic and that doesn't include everybody. know, Elon Musk probably is not going to listen to this because his focus is on building his businesses, changing the world. Like he has a very different role purpose mission. We're talking to people who have families and people who want to make that family life extraordinary. So that right there, I think is a qualifier because we're saying, yeah, we're not.

talking to everybody. by default, that means no, not everything we say is going to be a hundred percent true for everybody. Now also within that is of course, there's a lot of variations in family life. Essentially, I think what we're trying to talk about in these podcast episodes is the principles that we have certainty about saying that if you can find a way to apply this principle to your life, you're going to

achieve better results than if you don't apply this principle in your life. Something like that. And we've had enough life experience ourselves and with all the great people we get to work with, we realize there are some exemptions and some exceptions to principles and practices. My concern with that, and this is where we get kind of bold and certain,

Greg & Rachel Denning (12:05.611)
is that we have a tendency as people to use the exception more than is helpful or valuable. So the exception to the rules might be one or two percent of people, but maybe 20 or 30 percent of people are using it. saying, I'm an exception too. That won't work for me. This is tough for me. It's really hard. I tried everything and I did all this stuff and you're like, yeah, nope. Not you. You don't fit into the...

the exception column. You just haven't done the thing. Exactly. You gotta try a different way and keep trying until you get it. You're not, you don't fit in the tiny little exception category. And I feel certain about that across a lot of things where, you know, if there is an exception, it's very small, one to 2%. So I want to talk about these, at least in my mind, these two different viewpoints on this. one, think starting with our own

level of certainty, how we have so much certainty about the things we do talk about. And then the other aspect I want to address, because I feel it's also just as important, is because when we watched the clip that was sent over, when he was talking, I agreed with him, especially in the context in which it was given. He was talking in a religious setting to religious people about religion. And in that scenario, I thought what he said was exactly spot on.

certainty in that case is a sin and it prevents... Okay. and we'll talk through that, but, it can prevent unity and his hope in this little speech was that they would choose a pope who had doubt. I don't remember the wording exactly, but basically someone who lived in doubt. That was the kind of pope.

He wanted them to choose. Yeah, even a man who's willing to doubt, to explore faith, to question his certainties, which I think is excellent. So I want to talk about that after, but first I want to talk about how we have come to the level of certainty that we have on the topics that we do discuss. Because like,

Greg & Rachel Denning (14:27.021)
to be honest, not that I'm trying to hide this or anything, but like I've lived with a lot of uncertainty about a lot of the topics we have talked about. And in fact, there have been times in our life, well, and this was the reason why I didn't want to participate in podcasting with you. I didn't want to participate in coaching with you because I had uncertainty about the things we were actually teaching. I wasn't when you say times,

That was years. Yeah, was a lot of years. was a lot of years. had been podcasting and teaching and making videos like, babe, come on. She's like, nope, ain't putting me in front of a microphone or camera. And OK, and so, you know, there's a lot of reasons for that. One of them, I wasn't confident enough. I wasn't articulate enough. I, you know, I just didn't have the desire or ability to do that. But the other side of it was I also had a lot of uncertainty.

I remember very specifically certain topics that you would talk about and you would be like, this is the way it is. And I remember thinking, I'm not so sure. I don't think so. One of them that I remember clearly was depression. mean, for many years, 20 years or more, you have been talking that depression comes from poor habits. It can be cured with good habits, that drugs don't work, like all of these things. And I remember thinking,

I'm not sure babe, like maybe there's exceptions, that's not the case for most people. Maybe some people just can't help it. There's just nothing they can do. But as I have continued to study about it, learn about it, read the research, heard from people who are experts in it, one of which is actually Tony Robbins. I mean, he literally has now clinical proof that his methods cure depression better than anything else out there. Especially medication. Especially medication. In fact, he just...

very boldly declared, just like last week, that I think he said it was just over 42, 43 million Americans are on medications, he says that just don't work. Exactly. And there's no clinical evidence of them actually being effective, and yet they're still being handed out like candies. Yes. So... But let me clarify on this one.

Greg & Rachel Denning (16:44.975)
There's mountains and mountains of research coming out, which actually helps a person become more certain if, like, it's just overwhelming evidence of all kinds of different studies. Okay, it's easier to be certain when the evidence is so substantial. And one of the research, the data that has come out is that it is, I think they said 98 % is just

It's habits, patterns, thinking, it's lifestyle. There's a very small percentage that there's something genuinely physiologically broken or off that needs some kind of real special treatment. The rest can be affixed with lifestyle. Right. And that's also something that Jordan Peterson does with his clinical practice. In fact, he himself and his daughter dealt with depression.

And for them, they found out it was directly related to food. So they both live on very extreme diets. She called Michaela Peterson as well. Michaela is his daughter. She has a new last name anyways, but she lives on what she calls the lion diet, which is basically they only eat meat and salt and water. That's it. And you think, wow, that's really extreme. But for them, that cures their depression because their depression was induced by

It was an autoimmune thing. and Dr. Amon in all his research has provided mountains of evidence for food induced illnesses, mental and emotional illnesses. ADHD and all kinds of things. But in Dr. Peterson's clinical practice, like he would always focus on behaviors. If you want to get out of depression, you have to focus on changing your behaviors, your actions. So,

This is one example where early on I was very uncertain. I didn't feel comfortable making declarative statements, but in the context of everything we've already talked about and how on this podcast, we talk about the things we're about, I just have to let people know that everything we just touched on right there, I mean, that's one little fraction of the research.

Greg & Rachel Denning (19:04.771)
that we've discovered over the past 20 years about something like depression that gives us the confidence to be able to speak with certainty of like, this is how you do it. This is how you change it. This is how you create change in your life. And so at least for me, like you said, there is nothing I'm sharing on here speaking with certainty that I'm not certain about because I'm now speaking in circles. It doesn't make sense, but I've done the research on it. So that's why I have the certainty about it.

It's not something I'm just giving some flippant opinion saying, I really think this would work. am, me personally, I am very, very careful about what I say with certainty. And I will not say it unless I have the research to back it up. Now, not necessarily on hand, like here's the reference, but you know what I mean? Like I've learned enough to know in my brain, like, yeah, I am certain about that.

There's so many things because you and I have been so passionate about this for so long. I, I started devouring this stuff at the age of 16 and I never let up like my hunger, my passion, my drive for this learning and for discovering has never let up. I still, and you are too, you're just constantly reading and listening and researching, experimenting, practicing. And so after years and years and years,

of introducing ourselves to all of this and exploring it. Yeah, you just get so passionate and convicted and certain because there are so many things that just work. And there are so many things that just don't. And so that's where you and I have come to this place of certainty on a lot of topics of like, no, this just works, that just doesn't.

And for you and for me, I'm putting a period behind it. was like, period, hard stop. And yet, I like, our family loves this quote from Neil deGrasse Tyson. says, as the area of your knowledge increases, so too does the perimeter of your ignorance. So we are fully aware that the more we learn and know, the more we realize we don't know. And there's an infinite...

Greg & Rachel Denning (21:28.215)
number of things we don't know. We don't understand, that we're ignorant of, that we can barely scratch the surface. You could spend an entire lifetime and you would only know very little. Yeah. And so people could say, well, how do you know you're not going to keep learning and then realize, well, that thing's actually wrong. And that's certainly a possibility. Absolutely. And there has happened before. I mean, I was so adamant about eating salad.

In fact, were very first started this podcast, extraordinary family, extraordinary family life podcast. was just doing it alone. I was on my own. Cause this was before I had certainty. There were some episodes and people were asking like, what do I eat? I'm like salad, eat salad, I have salad. I was eating salad every day. Yeah. And I learned that I was wrong. Right. Now I just eat meat. don't eat salad at all. And we salad toxic sludge. I don't touch salad.

And people are like, well, you could find out later that you're wrong. And I guess we have to open the possibility of being wrong. In fact, Rachel and I were just talking about this quote I read by Emerson 20 plus years ago where he said that, he said, you have to be convicted in your own beliefs. He's like, believe your beliefs. He said, don't hold on to old beliefs.

He says the consistency is the hobglobin of little minds. I don't even pretend to understand what he's talking about there. But the idea was, he says, lean into your own beliefs and convictions. If you find out later that you were wrong, great, change. Abandon them. Yeah, abandon them. And then be convicted about the new beliefs. He's like, if you gain new insights as you go through life, like, yeah, OK, now I understand something better.

And you and I are continually learning and growing. And I think we're progressively building on former beliefs. So the vast majority of them get stronger and stronger with more time and experience and exposure of working with more and more people. Yeah. For me, I compare it to doing a puzzle. And when you do a puzzle...

Greg & Rachel Denning (23:47.915)
And obviously when we do a puzzle, you have a reference, you know what it's going to look like, but you know, let's say you don't and you start to put the pieces together and you may not have any clue what this is supposed to look like, but at, and this is why I think sometimes you can come up with something and that you think is true because you're like, here it is. I've put together this piece and this is what I see. You know, for us that was salad or whatever. But then as you continue to put together the whole picture, like as you put more and more pieces together,

the clarity of the image you're creating becomes more clear until you're absolutely certain what it is. And then you're like, wait, that's the rabbit eating the salad or the cow, right? Oops. You know, but now you have the whole picture. And for me, that's how I view what the things that we talk about on this, these podcast episodes, like the certainty that we have. It, for me, it's the things that we have put in, put the most puzzle pieces.

together on so that we have a more clear picture of what it is we're talking about. We're not just sharing the one little piece of information we found like, oh guys, look, we're like, no, here's the thing and here's how it fits in the entire puzzle that we now see because we've been working on putting this puzzle together for 20 years, right? That to me is what the level of certainty we have looks like. It's a completed I really like that because for 24 years,

you and I have been voraciously working on the puzzle. do we have all the answers? way, not at all. We know that. But in certain aspects where we have felt very passionate and we have achieved consistent, long-lasting, awesome results, it's irrefutable evidence. It's like, this stuff just works.

And because it works and because the results are so good and because we work with so many families who are suffering and struggling and hurting and they just want different outcomes, that drives and fuels our passion and desire to help and our conviction and certainty and say, hey, this works, do this and you'll get different results. Or stop doing that thing that's causing the problem and I know it'll get better. It can't not.

Greg & Rachel Denning (26:10.499)
Well, I just had another insight when you were talking about that, because I also believe that the things that we are teaching, we often compare them to tools in a toolbox. And we're giving you tools and we might give you a tool where you're just like, this is completely useless. I would never be able to use this tool. Like what, what is the point of this? How do you know that this is true for everybody? How do know that this tool will work for everybody? But in my mind, what I'm seeing here is that we're all on a journey.

and we're all starting at different locations, we all have different backgrounds, we all have different stories. And in order for us to know which tool to work, to use, we have to begin where we are. And that's gonna tell us which tool to use. Like, this is where I am right now, I'm laying the foundation, so I need a shovel to dig right into the ground. Exactly, a nail gun's not gonna help you when you're pouring concrete. exactly. But at some point on your journey,

You're going to say, oh my gosh, Greg and Rachel told me about this tool 20 years ago. And now what do know? Here, it's the perfect tool for me. Now is the perfect time to use it. So in some ways it's kind of like that. Like we're sharing all of these things and people might say, this is, that's not true. How can you be certain about that thing? It doesn't fit. But at some point, as you continue to progress on your own extraordinary journey,

there's gonna come a time where you're like, that's the tool I need. Like, you know, that's the thing that works right now. And so that's also another ingredient with this certainty. It's not that they don't work or they don't work for everybody, but they won't work for everybody at the same time or at the same place in the journey that you're on. It has to be at the right time and the right place as well. Love it. And circling back to...

this concept of should everybody, I was thinking of some things that we are very certain about, very bold about, and I think most people, not everybody, should everyone travel? No. Because some people would hurt themselves or hurt others or ruin the experience for other people. There is just some people you shouldn't travel. But I will boldly declare with certainty that travel has so many amazing benefits. Or can.

Greg & Rachel Denning (28:35.407)
if you do it well. There are things you can only learn through travel. One of which is just simply getting out of your comfort zone and out of your daily routine. mean, people hate that, but that's one of the reasons why it's good for you because it's forcing you to do something you wouldn't otherwise do. And it brings up so many great reality checks. It just blows your mind. Should everyone have children? Nope. They're there. In fact, I believe now there are some people who shouldn't.

have children because it wouldn't be fair to the kids like and you see it again like no it's so terrible so sad but can I with certainty say that children

Greg & Rachel Denning (29:18.191)
bring a joy that's not possible in any other way, bring challenges that aren't possible in any other way, and can bring growth that's not possible in any other way. Yeah, absolutely. Does that mean everyone who has a kid gains those things? Nope, because there's an art and a science to it all. What about alternative education, like homeschooling, world schooling, all these different things? Is it for everybody? meat.

No, it's not for everybody because some people can't handle it. can't do it well or they won't do it well. They won't put in the work and transformation that's required to do it well. But most people, particularly people listening to our podcast and wanting to create extraordinary family life, yeah, absolutely. So I'll boldly declare with certainty

to this demographic who wants an extraordinary family life, yeah, do this, do this, do this, do that, and we'll give you the tools and strategies to do it well. Yeah. And also with what I was saying, do it, but do it when it's the right time for you. One of the things you often talk about in your coaching with Your clients, because they will hire you to achieve this certain outcome. And as you start talking to them, you're like, your entire runway is covered with clutter. You cannot take off and achieve that until you...

Clear the runway first. And so even when in all these things that we're saying, know, homeschool or travel or whatever, you have to start where you are. And there's probably a lot of clutter on the runway you have to clear first before you are ready or prepared to do that thing. But the point of our podcast here is we're holding up an ideal. You know, one of the...

favorite quotes we have from Brian Tracy. Well, and it's related to wealth. It's like most people never become wealthy. I'm paraphrasing. Most people never become wealthy because they've never been exposed to it. They don't know what it looks like or what it feels like or how to do it. And that's kind of our goal and purpose with this podcast. It's like here, we're holding up some ideals of what family life can be like or feel like or look like. And is everybody going to be able to get there tomorrow? No, of course not. It's a journey. You have to start by

Greg & Rachel Denning (31:36.643)
first of all, exposing yourself to those possibilities. And that's what this podcast is about, exposing you to possibilities. I love it. And then there's little pieces and elements. Again, this is why we do a podcast and why we talk and talk and talk and talk and make videos and go on and on and write and share all this because there's so many things and so many elements. And From big shifts and transformations in our families to...

small specific practices about sleep or about exercise or no alcohol, right? That's a hard one where I'll lend no alcohol. And I mostly get this from Dr. Amon because he says there is no amount of alcohol that is good for the brain. And he shows the brain images that brain matter decreases with alcohol. And so even a moderate drinker has many divots.

and your brain is actually shrinking with alcohol. yeah, that's a hard stop. Use of marijuana and all that, like same thing. It restricts blood flow to the brain. Well, anything that's addictive. Yeah, anything that's addictive because you begin to lose control and the last thing you ever want to do in life is give up some of your own control. The control to think clearly and act.

boldly and get things done. You don't want hand that over. So we even get down into the little things like that that are backed up with all this research we've been talking about. Like, yeah, boom, I'll state with certainty, don't do that. Because, especially because the emphasis of our podcast is on creating extraordinary life, achieving your big goals and dreams that every amount, every even small amount of control that you give up is reducing your

overall capability to be able to achieve those goals and dreams. That is one of the secret sauce of our success is that we're so intentional, so deliberate about all of those small aspects that over time it has a compounding effect to give us more power and ability and capability and energy and motivation and all of those things so that we can be able to pursue our dreams and actually achieve them. Like that.

Greg & Rachel Denning (33:56.097)
In the end, that's what makes the difference. That's the determining factor. Exactly. And we've seen in thousands of cases up close where those little things can be just perpetual self-sabotage, where you're minimizing your own potential. And that's why we get fired up and passionate about it. every day, I think one of things that fuels our certainty and our drive and our desire to share all the things we're learning is that

man, almost on a daily basis between the two of us, we get pleas for help because there's so much unnecessary suffering. It happened again last night. Seeing a family go through this terrible divorce and I know the parents and I know the children and hearing from both of them about the suffering that's happening of a family just being wrecked, totally preventable.

just weak behaviors. And it's like, man, that right there, you see a family destroyed unnecessarily and all the suffering that's entailed in that, that gets me so fired up. And I want to share like, don't do this, do do this and have that certainty that things will be so much better if you're better and when you're better. Which it just reminds me that, you know,

despite all the things we teach and how certain we are about them and how true they are when you apply them to your lives, that ultimately, unless you are willing to apply it to your life, you're not gonna see the results. You're not gonna get the benefits of it. And so that's the hardest part for me as an observer, kind of taking a sneak peek into people's lives. That's always the saddest part is like,

And it sounds a little conceited sometimes, but I don't mean it to be conceited, but I feel like I know how to help you or Greg knows how to help you. And I just feel so sad that you won't accept that help or you won't take those action steps or you won't make the changes. And that's something we don't talk about as much because I haven't figured that out. That's something I definitely have uncertainty about.

Greg & Rachel Denning (36:17.743)
What is it that stops people from doing the things that they know will make their life better? What is it that makes them put up those walls and resist those little changes that could end up making all the difference? Why? them the very thing that they want. Not that we want for them, not that anybody else wants. like, I want this. And then they don't do it. Right.

So really, mean, all the things we teach only work for the people who want it to work for them. Those who don't want it, it doesn't work for them. Yeah. Okay. think it's important to point out though. We wholeheartedly believe that, I think this was also Emerson quote. said, every person I meet is my superior in some way. And in that way I can learn from them. And we wholeheartedly believe that. And we are curious learners and we're open learners.

we realize that every single person we meet has something to teach us. They can do something or know something that we don't know. They have an experience that they can share that we can be taught. we're sponges to that. And we're open to that all the time. We're constantly learning from people. We also have made it a practice for years and years and years to try to prove ourselves wrong and to be open to the very opposite. At first, when we first got married, were quite narrow.

in this kind of thinking. You're like, no, this is the one way and I'm not even going to think about other things and I'm definitely not going to consider if this might be wrong because it seems so scary. ties into what I want to talk to next about religion. But we realized like, well, that's actually weak. That's naive and it's without a foundation. It's very childish and underdeveloped. And so

When we come at something with a lot of certainty and I'll be ranting and saying things, it's because I feel like at least, maybe there's things I've missed. In fact, I'm sure there's things I've missed. But I try to walk the entire labyrinth of something. I try to see it from the other side. Or I use the rotisserie chicken. The rotisserie chicken. See it from every side. around, looking at it from every angle. And wholeheartedly, like with total honesty.

Greg & Rachel Denning (38:36.153)
carefully consider could I be completely wrong in this thing? Is there something I'm missing that I've just been holding onto this in naivete and ignorance or fear or whatever, it's just my own conditioning. And we've traveled to enough countries, very foreign to us, explored ideas. Religions, philosophies. Yeah, all of it, traditions, all of it. To come to the other side, try to see it from as many angles as possible.

and try to prove ourselves wrong. And when we walk around it like that and see it and kind of shoot holes in it, so to speak, and it stands up and holds it, you're like, okay, yeah, I can be bold about this because we've tried to sneak around the back and shoot it and it still holds up. I'm willing to be more bold with it. Whereas if we find something that's not so solid and you and I...

Mentally emotionally socially spiritually walk around and like yeah, okay this this is gonna fall over It's it's not real solid or at least the way it's being interpreted or practiced or used like yeah That's that's pretty weak and naive and we so we don't declare that anymore, right? And there's so many things in our livesuit. They're like that I guess I really want to points out because if you listen to the podcast you just hear us like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah That's because all the other things we shot holes in they're like good

That was like paper thin. We're not sharing that. We're not going to boldly declare those things. But when we were first married, we did. We had some things that now we realize were just paper ceilings and paper walls. Or straw man arguments is the other thing. know, like we're never going to be declaring with certainty something that's a straw man argument that doesn't hold up to that serious inquisition or...

exploration. Another way I heard this described which I really loved and actually is connected to the story of Beowulf who's the monster that would come and attack the I think it's in Scotland or something you know and would attack the the warriors at night and kill them and then this one warrior went to fight them and he wounded Beowulf but then found out he actually had a mother living in the swamp and so in order for this to end he had to go and kill the monster.

Greg & Rachel Denning (40:53.097)
the bottom of the swamp. And so I heard this person describe it once like that's what I'm looking for. I am looking for the bottom of the swamp. I want to go to the depths and find what's underneath there. That's where the foundation lies because when you find whatever's at the very bottom, the underlying cause of the underlying cause. The underlying, right in this story the cause of the problem was the monster's mother.

living in the swamp. So you have to go kill the monster living in the swamp if you want to have this problem ended, right? And so I've often thought about it from that perspective. I'm trying to get to the bottom of the swamp on this thing. And when I get there, I have certainty about it. And so that is what I talk about. That is what I teach about on this podcast. That is what I share. It's the things that are at the bottom of the swamp.

And then you're right, the rest of those things that we don't know. I mean, I think this is one reason we don't do a lot of podcast episodes about current events. We do some, but I'm always like, I don't know that much about current events. I just see what I see. And then I have, we have conversations about it. You and I love to talk about it, but it's nothing that we're like a hundred percent this. Let's make a podcast. Yeah. Because I'm like, I don't understand the issues that have been going on for generations around those nations. Exactly.

Let's talk about parenting. Exactly. You're right. So there's plenty of room for doubt there and there's plenty of room for asking questions and just having conversations. And maybe that is something we should talk more about on this podcast. I don't know if you think we should. Let us know. Send us an email. Yeah. Well, I like that idea. And that was one of the things I was thinking of the last couple of days. Like, maybe we should have some episodes where we just talk We're just like, I have no clue.

So instead of talking about what we know, we talk about what we don't know. Yeah, talk about all the things we don't know. That's good idea. So basically it would just be a bunch of questions and what about this and what about that and nothing to declare. Which could be fun because you and I do definitely do that all in our personal lives and with our children all the time. So it's a part of our lifestyle. It's just not something we're necessarily sharing on the podcast. Right. But I think that that kind of leads into

Greg & Rachel Denning (43:12.811)
talking about the religious aspect of this, because back to the movie, it was a religious context where he shared this. And he was referring to religion. He was referring to religion in this thing. I, and in that case, I agree with him a hundred percent. In fact, I believe that certainty in religion, I'm going to go back to using the word sin, is a sin, especially because I like

the definition that Jordan Peterson uses, which means essentially missing the mark, right? If you think about a target, you're, he says it's a archery term that if you're shooting at a target and you miss the mark, that's a sin. So if you have certainty in religion, as far as like, I know this and everybody should do that and everybody should do this, which I can see how...

that is all right and everybody else is all wrong. Right. Yeah, that definitely...

creates disunity or prevents unity. It doesn't leave room for tolerance. the wrong way. Yeah. But okay, I disagree with you a little bit on that one. Well, I know you do, but as I'm saying this, can see, hear some people saying, well, wait a second, isn't that kind of essentially what you are doing? Maybe it's not a religious context, but aren't you saying everybody should be eating meat or everybody should be doing this?

And I can see how there's a connection with that idea, but for me, the reason why it's...

Greg & Rachel Denning (45:00.095)
not just connected to a religious sort of statement of like, this is how you should live your life. It's an integrated statement. It's something that has proven itself, not just because I think where the problem often comes in is from a religious viewpoint. If we just say, do this or don't do this and you're saved or you're damned. And I think nowadays that's not enough for people. And in fact, that is where

disunity, intolerance come from. It's a very narrow view. Right. But back to this touching back on how we come up with our certainty, when we discuss certainty, it's also something that has been, for lack of a better word, proven in multiple domains. So perhaps it's true in religion, but it's also true in psychology. It's also true in biology. It's true in philosophy. It's something that

has proven itself the same principle like, well, this is true here, here, and here. So that makes it a meta-truth because it's not just like, this is true because religion says so, or this is true because your parents say so, or this is true because the government says so. You know what I mean? Those are the type of certainties and truths that we're mostly talking about, things that have proven themselves across multiple domains.

Right? Which I feel like gives it more strength than just a purely religious aspect. It can be correlated in religion, for sure, but the religious aspect on its own in my mind is insufficient. Hopefully that makes sense. I also want to just kind of share thoughts that came to my mind when we first heard the quote and it has come again.

I feel like we don't, I personally and in our family, don't go around ostracizing, like condemning, like keeping people out of our lives. Like we're all about family, but if people don't have a family, like, well, we can't talk to you, hang out you, spend time with you, because you don't have a family or you don't have kids or whatever. It's not like that. Or even if people eat a different way or live a different way, like, okay, whatever.

Greg & Rachel Denning (47:27.693)
We're friends with vegans and vegetarians. I feel bad for you that you only eat that stuff, whatever, we're still fantastic friends. And you eating that, whether it's junk food or spinach, whatever, it's not hurting me at all. You may tease them about it. We'll totally tease them and have fun with it and they'll tease us and whatever.

I guess I want to point out like we've come to this place where we're not shutting out everybody else because they don't live like us. And I see how that's a thing because it's very prevalent. People grab hold of their beliefs with conviction and that means everybody else is wrong or bad or can't be a part of my life or I can't relate to you, I can't like you. And that's just, just, not how we do our family life.

It makes me think of, because over the years, it's happened multiple times. So it's not, I know it's not just a one-off thing, but over the years, I will occasionally get emails from families, Christian families that say, what are your statement? What's your statement of belief? Because I need to know if it aligns with my statement of belief before I can listen to you. And it's always bothered me. Always.

I got it again within the last, I know it's been a month or two since I got one and this time I just responded. I'm like, I don't share my statement of belief because our mission is to be a great force for good in the world. And so we are teaching truth. And if you're not open to receiving truth from wherever it might be found, then we're not the right people for you, right? Let's just like, no, if you're going to limit your input to such a restrictive...

vein that you cannot learn from someone else because they're Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or whatever, a different religion, a different race, then sorry, you've limited yourself. And that's And you've condemned yourself to a tiny space of knowledge and information. I mean, I've read hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books. And if I had to find out

Greg & Rachel Denning (49:46.369)
their statement of belief before I read their books. So many of the books that I've gained so much from, I wouldn't have read them because it. in a way that that is how we started out because while we did not use those terms, you and I began our life together believing that we should only read books from those in our religion. And that's all we did read at first. But to look back at that now, mean, that's so limiting on our

on our expansion, growth, development, worldview. And I believe it's completely incongruent with how the world actually works and what God actually wants for us. mean, God knows all things. Do you think that happened by not reading certain, you know, not exposing himself to certain ideas? Like he knows all ideas.

And the other thing, this just reminded me, because the guy that talked about the bottom of the swamp, know, the other thing he talked about, he's like, God is not afraid of your questions. He's not afraid you're going to discover something that he doesn't know about or that, you know, whatever. that's a whole, and you mentioned walking the labyrinth. That's a whole part of this, like doubting, questioning.

Looking into the abyss. is all a part of walking the labyrinth. And so going back to this movie when he talks about certainty being a sin and that we should have doubt, yes, absolutely we should. If you don't doubt your religion, then you'll never have enough faith to truly live your religion. Like you have to go through the doubt in order to gain real faith because otherwise you're like you mentioned, you're just...

Naive and in fact, I think there's certainty on the far side of doubt. Yes, they can't have certainty Unless you are willing to question and doubt and challenge and go through that and come back around say, okay now I now I have a greater certainty So I believe there there is a place for certainty inside religion Maybe not massive or all-inclusive, but there's certain elements. You're like, that and I believe you can move

Greg & Rachel Denning (51:53.017)
from a position of faith to a position of certainty in some things. you're like, actually, and faith, it depends on how you define faith. Faith is like this declaration of what you believe and how you're gonna live and what you value. You're putting it into practice and action. But you can, as far as faith is, like faith is believing in something that's not certain. I believe there are elements where you can become so certain. You're like, I don't need to have that kind of faith anymore because I'm absolutely certain in this thing.

But you have to be careful with that because we can become fundamentalists and fanatics and extremists and super naive and blind because we have this absolute certainty in things that there's very little certainty available. Yeah, well, it makes me think of a couple things. One of them is this idea that we are all on a different journey. And so,

I think the certainty has to apply to ourselves, the principles, but going back to the principles that are applied at certain times on the journey. And so if someone else is walking the path, but they're over there in the labyrinth, you know, on the other side, and you're over here and you're like, but this is what you're supposed to be doing. It's like, well, no, you're only supposed to be doing that when you're over here in this part of the labyrinth and over there, it looks actually totally different. It may even look opposite of what you're doing.

That is a part of the labyrinth and walk and walking that journey, right? And so it's, there can be certainty in what you're sharing, but also with the wisdom to know that those things have to be used or shared, used at different times, just like the tool analogy. The other thing was the, I just remembered the insight, the really great insight that our son had, who's 19, talking about this. He's like, well, The interesting thing about certainty is it's not necessarily attached.

to anything. Like certainty is not attached to truth because you can be certain about something that's completely false. So when I'm talking about certainty as a sin, well yeah, definitely it's a sin when it's attached to the wrong thing. But certainty about the right things is a virtue. so, you know, That's what makes this so challenging. Yeah. It's so difficult, right? Because it's, it is totally possible to be absolutely certain.

Greg & Rachel Denning (54:16.939)
and totally wrong. And that's so challenging and so difficult. Which goes back to kind of where we started this, you know, we in our personal lives, our personal journey, we are very careful about the things we're certain about, especially when we're sharing them with other people. So because we have been certain in the wrong things in the past, it's by making those mistakes and

Becoming certain too quickly. think is what got us into trouble and without enough depth of experience and research and wisdom And then you walk around the corner like it's not it at all. Oops. I'm sorry And so you're right we you know through lots and lots and lots of experience and research We're we're more careful about our certainty soon. I feel like now when when we say we're certain about something

We feel like we've earned it. Right. And I hope that that gives a sense of confidence to people who do listen to our podcast to know, because I feel like part of our role or mission is to be some sort of a filter, I guess, for people, like a proving ground where they're like, okay, the Dennings have done their research. So if they share this with me, I'm trusting that it's solid, right? And that's...

what we try to do and if we're ever wrong, like I'm happy to share, we were wrong about that guys. And the fact that if we don't have proven results, like solid results, we're not going to talk about it. Yeah. If it didn't, like really. If we tried something and it didn't work, not, I mean, we'll tell you, we tried this and it work, but we're not going to be like, you should do this guys. Or we're trying it and hit and miss, results aren't really there and we're just, yeah, go do it. We're not going to do that. Yeah.

If we don't have rock solid lasting results, we're not going to boldly declare that other people should try it. That's just, I mean, it's kind of my own integrity there. like, if I, if I don't have solid results, I'm not talking about it. But when I have consistent results through all kinds of situations and circumstances and moving our family all over the planet and every kind of, you know, life happens scenario and it still works. I could share that.

Greg & Rachel Denning (56:39.959)
Yeah. With total confidence. Which is another interesting aspect to this because we often tell you guys that we've lived multiple lifetimes and that's because we have lived multiple lifetimes and we've lived in so many different situations and scenarios like and living conditions. We've lived in our truck. We've lived in mansions. We've lived in...

dozens of countries on different continents and time zones. So the things that work, they work. It's not just because, this will work if you live in the United States of America and in this certain kind of neighborhood and this and this and this. No, we've tested it and tried it in so many different scenarios that we're like, yeah, that works. And that's where we get a sense of certainty. Certainty, exactly. Love it. Yeah.

Believe. Have faith and certainty and doubt and doubt. And in.

See, is so, life is awesome and hard and challenging and simple and complex. And in some areas, certainty is a lot clearer than others. And in certain aspects, one thing is true and the other thing may not be. And one principle may be applicable in another area, no. And it's learning to navigate all that.

And I mean, I guess that's where wisdom comes from, and trial and error. And for you and I, we agreed early on, like we wanted to learn fast. We wanted to gain wisdom as quickly as we could. And I started realizing wisdom comes with experience. I'm like, okay, so how do I 10x my experiences so I can get to wisdom faster? And we've done that. We still do that. We live by that. It's a ready, fire, aim philosophy. Like, wait a minute, I have to do all that to learn? Okay, let's.

Greg & Rachel Denning (58:48.335)
I'm jumping off the cliff. Well, it also makes me think of that one of the things we read early on is that in order to get results faster, achieve success faster, have more experiences, you have to fail more often. a part of this, because like you're saying, it can be difficult to know what to have certainty about. But a part of the answer is what Emerson said is

be certain about something and go move forward with it. And then if you're wrong, be like, oh, I was wrong. Switch paths, move forward with certainty. That is what we did early on. just so cool because now you have certainty that that didn't work. That thing did not work. I know it. And now I can have more certainty about this second path I'm And that is a part of how we learned. We were willing to take that approach of ready, fire, and then aim after we fired, right?

And that helped us to learn so many things to gain the experience and wisdom so that now at this point in our lives we can speak with certainty about a lot of things because we're like, trust us, we've walked down all the other paths. Yeah, if you come up with six possibilities and you quickly try to go down all of them, you eliminate five of them right away. Exactly. Those didn't work. And this one's still working like a champ. And then you start researching, finding other people are doing it. Yeah, this is it.

Or you see the reverse example of people who did the other things and it's just not working for them. And so you know that doesn't work because I've seen it here, here, here, and here, which in other people's lives. That brings up an awesome point there that you and I are.

we're very good at, we've been deliberate and intentional about it since we met each other, we share it with our kids, and it's in observing humanity. I would say most of us are kind of just operating, yeah, a little unconscious, we lack awareness, we're just going through life, that's a normal setting, that's default setting, it's like rolling along, doing our stuff, and we're not really keen observers of other people.

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:00:55.135)
where that stems from is that we are taught, especially Christians, to not judge others. We're taught to not be judgmental. And so as a result, we're not willing to look at someone else and then try to make a judgment about how they got to that point in their life, where that's something you and I do all the time. Not in a condemning judgmental way, but in a, I'm truly curious here, psychologically.

How did this occur? How did this person get that outcome? We've learned to separate the individual from the action. Right. So we are constantly assessing, observing, and judging actions, habits, patterns, just to say, was this working? Is it not? And that was kind of my point for everyone listening. Become an observer, a keen observer of humanity. judge. Yes, in a very real way. Become a judge. But don't judge the people.

judge the actions. you're observing, it's almost like you're mentally, and I would tell you to take notes too. case study. Do your own case studies, just be watching. Be like, oh my goodness, this person, they said they do this, I'm seeing them do this, they're doing this. And I all do this because of your point, Rachel. You were saying, if you watch people, you see all the outcomes. You have evidence. it's easy to be really certain about what's leading to obesity in the United States.

Because the case studies? There's a lot. Are over 70 % of Americans, children, and adults. You're like, OK, what's the common denominator? I've got some certainty here. And then especially because we have traveled, I've been to 60 countries, it's blatantly obvious that it's not happening everywhere. It's only happening in certain places, which is mostly the US and unfortunately, the UK as well. Like, that's where you see most of the obesity.

And so you can say, this is interesting. Why are most Europeans not overweight? Especially when they're drinking wine and eating bread and tons of butter. These long meals. have long, long meals. always laughed when we go out to eat still because here we live in Portugal and we're like, you can tell we're the Americans because we came in after them and we left before them, you know, because we're like, come in, eat, leave, we're done. It's like, we don't have time to sit here all afternoon or evening.

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:03:21.037)
enjoy ourselves, we've got stuff to do, we're productive. We have seven children. Can't sit around at restaurant all day. But you know, it's clear to us that it's a unique situation that's happening, so we can speak in certainty about it because we're like, this isn't just chance or bad luck or bad genes, there's something going on here. And it's, I guess I just love this concept and idea because every single one of us, if we'll just open our eyes, have

walking evidence around us everywhere. And we have to be honest with ourselves, with our own family members, which is hard to do. It's hard for somebody to separate that and look at their siblings and their parents and without condemning them, say, what works, what doesn't? And then look at your in-laws, what works, what doesn't? What results do they have and how did they get those results and how can I reproduce that or do the opposite to get different results?

Or just do it differently or maybe the the practice is right but the application was off. Again the case studies abound. There's eight billion of them so just start paying attention and go to different as you travel pay attention. I guess what I'm saying is we have walking talking case studies everywhere and people love to talk. In fact you don't even have to go anywhere. I I recommend that you do but all you got to do is get on social media.

Just get on social media and spend 30 minutes just observing as a researcher, even as an observer or as a judger, right? Get on social media as a judger and spend 30 minutes just looking, scanning for patterns and common denominators. It's amazing. People are out there openly telling you all the things they're doing. And then if you can read between line and see all the outcomes, like, there it is right there. And you'll see it again and again and again and again.

And then you can have more certainty in your convictions or your conclusions at least because look at all the examples. And you'll notice also people put up a facade, they put up a mask of like everything's great, everything's awesome. And you're like, doesn't, no, it seems off, something. And then you'll see it down the road, bam, there it is. Horrible health, horrible divorce, terrible outcomes of the family, business fails.

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:05:42.733)
You see it. Because none of that happens all of the sudden. All of those things are things that have been building over time. One habit, one behavior, one action at a time. It's never like all of sudden there it is. It doesn't work like that. That's one of the laws of the universe. Which to end I guess is another thing I thought of as this conversation came up. I don't think any of us would doubt

the existence of gravity. We can't see it, we can't touch it, we can't feel it, and yet we all know that it's there. Now scientists have explained to us about how it works or whatever, you know, and if you understand that, great, but we all know gravity exists. I think for many of us though, we don't realize that in every area of our lives, there are similar laws that are governing them. And so we might think, why am I?

getting these results or we don't think that we just think, this is life. This is what happens. This is just how it works. Not realizing that in some cases we're simply fighting against certain laws and hurting ourselves. It's like, you know, walking along the street and we keep tripping and falling and not realizing that we're not working with gravity. We're working against it. Once you learn how to work with gravity, then you can do all kinds of things. You can bungee jump, you can skydive, you can fly.

All of these things we didn't think were possible, but they are when we learn how to work with, yeah, to understand the laws and to work with them rather than just kicking against the pricks and self-sabotaging because we refuse to understand the laws around us and to work with them. And then just concluding that life sucks, then you die and the world is out to get you. And I think, you know, Part of our role is and our passion and purpose is we're obsessed with finding out what those laws are.

And then when we discover them, sharing what we have learned, like, guys, there's this law, this is what it does, watch out or you're gonna get hurt. But if you use it correctly, guess what? This is what happens and it's amazing. So do it. That's such a great point, because that's one thing you and I have been obsessed about. And we wouldn't have phrased it like that, we wouldn't have articulated it that way, but that's what we've been doing for our entire marriage. We've been obsessed about finding out what are the laws.

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:08:06.895)
that operate in this little kingdom, in this little aspect, every little aspect of an extraordinary family life, what are the laws that make this function and work every time, predictably? And we figure out laws and then bam, there's the certainty and the results. Yeah, I think, I mean, it started for you when you were a teenager and out on your own and lonely and wondering like, is it possible to be happy? And if it is, are, and,

Again, you wouldn't have used this word, but are there laws that govern that? Are there laws that make that possible? And what are they? And it has, it's been a lifelong search since then. Cause when I was surrounded, I saw broken marriages and terrible, toxic relationships and domestic violence. And I mean, I was out on my own in bad neighborhoods because I was broke. And I just kept asking like, is it even possible to have healthy relationships? Do good marriages actually even exist?

Can people have a good relationship with their kids? Can siblings get along? Can people actually be genuinely wealthy doing good things? Or is it always through corruption? They'll feel filthy rich. And I was asking all those questions and genuinely searching because I was doubtful. I didn't know or didn't believe in many cases that it actually was possible. It must have been this big act or facade. So I was digging.

And when I found hold of solid things that I could rely on. Yeah. Well, and I had to go to the bottom of the swamp, as did you, to eliminate the causes of my own problems. Well, and guess before that I had to realize I was the catalyst, right? That my own thinking, my own feelings, my own actions were the cause of most of my problems. So you have to face that abyss and realize that all my own issues are causing my problems.

that's what's at bottom of the swamp is that at the bottom of my swamp or maybe the swamp is the mother of all of the bad things. And so you kill, you face it and eliminate it. Well, now I can do what I want to do in life without the horrendous self-sabotage that ruins all the good things I want.

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:10:24.397)
Which is really fascinating because on a metaphysical level we literally, truly, our bodies hold on to like this energy that's stuffing and holding emotions and you know like it's literally...

Containing energy. And so as we go through this process of getting to the bottom of the swamp and releasing that energy, processing those negative emotions, moving through those things, the grief, the shame, the pain, all of that, it is literally freeing up energy, which now can be put into other things, into creating what it is you want rather than just continuing to exist with what you had, right?

That's biologically, physiologically, metaphysically what's happening there. It's really fascinating. So almost everything you and I talk about, I'm constantly in my mind, I'm sure you are too, I'm thinking about the books we've read and the research we've done and on and on and on. Even right there where you're talking about that, was thinking of Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, just an absolutely phenomenal book. By Dr. Joe Dispenza. And he spent decades.

researching all of this and working with thousands and thousands and thousands of people. He has all the case studies, all backed up. So here's a gentleman who spends decades and mean dedicates his life to this and writes many books, seminars, all the stuff and he packages it and you and I read it. And then Wayne Dyer and Deepak Chopra and now I start going through all these authors and on and on and Brian Tracy and bam bam bam bam bam. And between the two of us we have spent

many, many tens of thousands of hours learning all this stuff and our desire, our sincere desires to get on our podcast and in our courses and our coaching and share that stuff. We assimilate it. We take it, you know, pull out the best stuff and share it with you because when we hand out our book list to people, know, busy moms, busy dads, and we're like, here's the 1200 books that we recommend where we've learned these things, they look at it think,

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:12:41.367)
That'll take me... 20 years? No, 20 if you're reading. Crazy. That's a book a week. It's a book a week. Well, that's how long took us. 29. Right, exactly. But most people are trying... I hear this all the time. Like, I'm gonna try to do a book a month. Like, okay, that's what... What is that? Do the math at 80 years? Right? And here's our list. Yeah, but I'll be dead. Like, yeah.

So listen to the podcast, get the coaching, like listen to what we're saying here. We did all the reading. Now we'll recommend some of them. They're fantastic, but we've done all the reading, connected all the books for years and years and years. That's why we're sharing this with certainty because we are standing on the shoulders of giants.

spent their entire... so I think Tony Robbins is an excellent example because he when he was really young he worked for Jim Rohn and Jim Rohn was like 60. So Jim had spent his entire life studying and teaching success and Tony goes to work for him when he was like 19 and just gets mentored and trained and then Tony does the same thing and now Tony's like 64. And so you take and I read almost all of Jim Rohn stuff.

and I've gone through... all of Tony Robbins stuff. Tony Robbins stuff. I'm literally standing on the shoulders of giants. Which is... so much. way more than I can do in my entire lifetime, but I'm maximizing it. Right. So I'm collapsing time by learning from lifetimes worth of work. This compile, they take their best stuff and they say, do this. Which is another reason why we can have so much certainty about what we're talking about, because it's not...

It's not just coming from our own head. Right, it's not just our empty opinions. Right, we're saying, wow, all of these people who have credibility, who have results, they're saying the same thing. amazing, wow, must be true. And then we apply it, what do know, it works. Yep, exactly, so you put it to the test, because they've already put it to the test with, in many cases, millions of people, and they're like, no, it just works.

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:14:55.791)
And so I'm like, well, I'll be a little skeptical here. And I try and I'm like, yeah, it totally works. Let's share this. what's cool, what's fun, what's cool, what's interesting is we take it and we're applying it to an extraordinary family life. We're making it very, very family focused and getting the results inside family life that are pretty elusive that very few people really enjoy. Well, because that is

the experiment we have been doing because many of the people who write or teach about success, is individual focus, which is a part of the process. But at some point it has to become family based. Like you have to have not just personal development, but family development. You have to have not just personal improvement growth, but family improvement growth. So that is why we have the emphasis that we do because that's ultimately.

what it's about for those who have a family, right? We don't want people who, and this happens, you know? And it even happened with Tony Robbins early. Tony Robbins early on in his journey, like he was married, but ended up getting divorced because he kept growing and learning and progressing and his wife didn't. Now he's remarried to an amazing person, but you know, that was a part of his journey because he was growing and improving. And so, but our focus is on let's do this as families. Let's do this.

to pass it on to our children so that, you know, with the hope and intention that we create a better world because we are standing on the shoulders of giants, but passing it on to the next generation as well. That we're stopping these generational traumas and swamps from being passed on so that we can have healthier children who grow up into healthier adults who raise healthier children.

Etc, etc, etc. That's my vision for the world. I love it. And this is part of our life's work. I love it. Well, our core life's work is to do it for our family, generationally, for our kids and our grandkids and our great grandkids and on. And then the cool aspect of that is why we're doing this, is because part of our life's work is to share it with others. Yeah. And bless your family, those of you who listening. So thanks for listening, guys. Love you. Reach upward.

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:17:19.663)
Am out of focus?

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:17:25.679)
We've been out of