#305 Helping Kids Develop and Use Their Agency to Make Good Choices

Human beings are born to be free.

I don't want children who can be controlled.

Human beings who are healthy want to make the right choices.

We see too many children literally don't know how to make decisions.

Best thing we can do for our children is teach them.

You teach who you are, right?

Right.

What are they going to do as soon as you're not there?

At what point do you allow your children to have agency?

And parents are clueless.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast, where your host Greg and Rachel Denning here, as always, to help you create your own unique, extraordinary family life.

That's why we do what we do.

We think about all the time, We talk about you guys all the time.

We love you.

We have this deep, deep love and care for families.

And we want you to have this like amazing loving, romantic best friend marriage like we have.

And we want you to have incredible relationship with your kids and that they grow up healthy and strong physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, socially, financially.

And trauma free.

And trauma free, like deeply attached to you and you're growing up solid.

We we, we shouldn't have so many youths going into adulthood with all this baggage and garbage and trauma.

Well, I I just want to share this story really quickly.

I didn't plan on sharing this, but I feel like it's relevant.

We just had our daughter who's 18.

She came back to stay with us because she's been out traveling for a couple of months.

And while she was in the Dominican Republic, she had the opportunity to do this like breath work, I don't know what you call it, was a breath work experience where they used breathing and the intention was to use breathing to clear trauma or just process emotions, things like that.

And she said it was very interesting, a very interesting experience and a good experience and a good experience.

Many if not all of the people in the room.

It it induced and this is the purpose it induced crying and like releasing of trauma, right?

Even yelling and screaming and what you're doing, you're just bringing up the pain.

Exactly which it was the point of the experience.

And, you know, she was kind of like, oh, am I doing this wrong?

Like, I, I don't have that.

I'm not, I don't need to cry.

I'm not crying.

Like what, what's going on?

And afterwards, she was talking to some people and they're like, you just don't have any trauma.

And, and she thought about it and talked about it with us.

And that was just true.

Like here she is.

She's 18 years old and she doesn't have any trauma that she has to process or release.

Now, will she go her entire life without some sort of trauma?

I don't know.

But the point is, when we are raising our children, we should help to provide an environment for them that is for the most part, trauma free.

Now, that doesn't mean we haven't experienced difficult things.

She was in a car accident when she was three and broke her femur and was in a body cast for 14 weeks or something.

And we've been through all kind of.

Tough things and really hard things.

We've had a challenging life, but I guess your point.

Sin to take on, sorry to interrupt this, but we chose to take on challenge like she summited Mount Kilimanjaro when she was 17, right?

So she's chose challenges and hard things, but not not necessarily things that were traumatic.

Right, and and I guess the the point we're trying to make here is where where at all possible, they should not be getting their trauma from us right?

Like I, I as her father and and father of our children, should not be causing trauma in my children.

You as the mom, I guess that's what we're going for.

Like so many of adults we speak with, it's like they picked up all kinds of trouble and pain wounds and hatred and bitterness and, and it's the omen and offering from their own stinking parents.

So we want to share the tools and strategies to prevent all of that unnecessary suffering so that we can have happy, healthy kids that we ourselves can be happy and healthy.

And those of us who did experience some some real difficulties and suffering and we can process that and get over it and not pass it on generationally.

And we can just be happy and just truly love family life.

That's why we live for this stuff.

I love it.

And and we I got to throw this in there like Rachel leads this amazing program.

It's the family life coaching and like, get in there.

I'm just going to just boldly say it.

Like that's every single week we meet and live and answer questions and give strategies like this.

Well, we're just going to the specific tools of how we've been able to do that raise trauma free children and and how you can make the changes in your own family life.

Exactly.

Love it.

OK.

So we got a great question that came in yes, about.

And, and I think that this is a very speaking about this subject.

I think that this is a very applicable topic because it certainly has been a foundational aspect.

And I know we probably say that a lot like every episode, we're like, this is a foundational aspect.

Well, it's true.

And the more foundational pieces you put in place, the stronger your your child's foundation is going to be and your parenting and all that.

So having lots of foundational pieces is not a bad thing, right?

That's a good thing.

But helping our children to be able to develop agency, well, and I wouldn't even say develop because I believe agency just is like all of us just have agency like we, that's a human right.

Essentially, we're born with agency, but whether or not we develop it or practice it depends on a lot of different factors, including environment.

The skill is learning to use our agency well.

So agency exists.

Human beings are born to be free.

They come to.

It's an inalienable inalienable right?

And it should not be violated.

It should not be taken away, even by parents, even by well meaning parents.

You become tyrants and dictators and bullies.

And, and I would say that is I, I believe that that like, let's get metaphysical or archetypal here.

I believe that's where all dictatorships begin is in the home.

Like many.

First of all, the trauma that we just talked about that happens from the authoritarian nature of parents.

And I believe like world problems occur because the, the, the world leaders who are making everyone's lives horrible probably had not probably they did have very horrible childhoods.

And so it's this, it's a very important aspect that when we learn as human, as humans, when we learn to get this right, we're going to make the world a better place, right?

So that's why we're here.

That's why we're talking about it.

Like, let's get this right.

Let's not be authoritarian dictators in our own homes, and let's help our children develop agency.

And we see this on obviously on one end of the scale, it's like just really bad parents who like they're just straight up bad parents.

They don't care.

They're negligent.

They're they're just lost, distracted.

They're not, they're they're mean, abusive.

What are just ugly?

All the ugly side of the bad stuff.

Well, in fact, in the four different types of parenting, that's what it's called, it's called neglectful parenting.

So there's authoritative which I just talked about authoritarian, which is the approach we take and that's probably that you.

Switch that authoritarian.

Let's get clear on those terms.

Yeah, try to use them the right.

Being is like a dictator spell.

Authoritative is is 1 where you have rules and boundaries that you expect to be followed, but you also have this mentoring aspect to the relationship.

And then there's permissive parenting, which is essentially in order to be your friend, you just let them do whatever and you know, there's very few boundaries or rules.

And then there's neglectful parenting, where the parent really just does not care about you at all and you can do whatever you want and cares.

So then so at the very bottom, it's it's bad people who are bad parents, the far other end.

I want to qualify that.

Just saying because bad people sounds bad, we mean people who.

Are bad.

That's what I mean.

There are I say bad people.

I mean bad people.

I.

Think some of the bad people are also people who would like to be good because yeah, I think there are people are just they don't have a moral compass perhaps, right?

It's underdeveloped.

That's right.

That's what I'm talking about.

That's the bottom of the scale.

No, because they haven't been exposed to it and they don't know.

They're just doing what they've seen done to them and it's bad, but it's almost just out of complete it.

It's like unconscious incompetence.

And then on the other end of the scale, you have very, very, very good people, like some of our favorite people on the planet.

These are just good human beings.

And with the greatest desire to raise good people.

Clamp.

They become authoritarian.

Yeah, they're, they're controlling.

And you have these really good men and women who run their house like tyrant dictators, an authoritarian regime.

And.

And like what?

At first, it's always baffled me.

I'm like, what is going on?

Like, you're such a good human.

How can you treat your children like you're a tyrant dictator?

And what they're trying to do with all the best intentions is keep a very, very tight clamp on those kids so that, again, it's all with a big heart.

Like, I want the best for my kid, so I'm going to control them.

Yeah, I want the best for my kids, so I'm going to make them do it.

Make the right choices.

Because if I do that, I'm going to prevent the heartache and suffering that maybe I went through or saw someone else go through.

And so I I know what the answer is.

I know how to prevent that thing, so I'm going to make sure you make the right choice so that you don't make the same mistakes.

The irony is that forcing someone to make the right decision, it is actually like it's devilish.

Yeah, it's true.

It in a in a way it's satanic.

Yeah, let that sink in.

It's like, because what we think is like, Oh no, the the greatest evil is like making people do bad things, but right there aligned with that is taking away their agency completely and trying to force them to do the right thing.

So you have this wonderful human being who's truly good trying to force their children to make the right decisions.

And human beings are born to be free and they have this innate desire to be free and they will fight.

Well, they will absolutely fight any restrictions.

And So what happens so often with good parents and good homes, good families with that tight control, their kids rebel.

Yeah.

And and that's what happened in my own story.

I've shared it multiple times.

But I think, I think there's actually 2 scenarios. 1 is the children become dependent and they do not develop their own agency muscles, right, because they never have the opportunity.

They're very compliant.

Right.

So, and so that becomes so confusing to the parents because they think, oh, this is a good kid, this is a good kid who just goes along.

They do what I say, you know, they, they keep the rules.

That's not necessarily a good thing, right?

That's not what you want.

Because children like that, people like that are are it's easier to control them.

And I like for me, I don't want children who can be controlled.

I want children who think for themselves because people who can think for themselves are better off in the world, right?

Let's let's let's take this well.

Finish the other thing really fast because one is they become dependent and their agency muscles are under underdeveloped. 2 is they become rebellious and that was the path I took.

I became rebellious and then I intentionally did things my parents, specifically my dad, did not want me to do simply because he did not want me to do it.

And what happens in that case is you.

It's almost like I feel like a part of my brain shut off and I couldn't even access that part of my brain because I was constantly in a defensive fight mode, right?

And so I wasn't able to access a full brain for, for making good decisions that would ultimately benefit me, right?

I only wanted to make decisions that would hurt my dad, which then often hurt myself as well.

All right, mostly.

Right yourself.

So the, the goal, the outcome that we all want parents and children, I think all human beings, if they're healthy, if, if they have good sleep, good food, good relationships, they're in a safe. 6 human needs met.

Their needs are being made.

They're in a safe environment.

They want to make good choices.

I think, I think we have a misconception.

We think, oh man, the kids, would they just want to make bad choices?

No, they don't, right?

Human beings who are healthy want to make the right choices, ladies.

And gentlemen, teenagers.

Yes, your kids, your toddlers, and your teens want to make the right decisions.

They want what's best.

So the most effective way to parent is just to teach them.

Not punish them.

Not force them, not control them.

Teach them.

And to provide that space where they can make it was good decisions.

Exactly.

And and offer like, lay them out before I'm like, here are the choices.

Here's here's the consequence of this.

Here's the consequence of that.

Which one do you want?

And and they'll be like, man, of course I want the one with the good consequences.

So your kids want to do the right thing.

You as parents want them to do the right thing.

But what's the outcome we're going for?

We do not want and and this is where it gets a little can get confusing or scary.

We don't want compliant.

Do what you're told.

Children who don't know how to make decisions and don't know how to think.

AKA.

Obedient, Right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, they just do what they're told.

They follow the rules, that is, That is dangerous.

It actually makes them incredibly naive and vulnerable to be controlled like you.

Said that is one of the common denominators of if you learn anything about cults out there, one of the common denominators that they # into people's heads is be obedient.

In fact, there's a documentary about the polygamist group in Utah and it's called Keep sweet prey obey.

And like the whole thing is like be obedient, be obedient, be obedient, don't ask questions, don't talk back, don't like the you just need to be obedient.

So obedience is not a healthy thing that we want to develop on our children.

It's not always a virtue.

It's right, it can be a virtue.

It's not always a virtue, and sometimes it is a downright vice.

It's.

Bad if you if you look at the, the, the people who like OK, I'm I'm thinking of communism, totalitarian regimes.

North Korea.

Everybody points the finger at Hitler, for example, but he had hundreds of thousands of very obedient, compliant people executing all of his murderous orders.

So.

That's the danger.

Was not the one murdering them, wasn't even his generals.

It was all the people who are doing what they were told, who didn't stop and think is this the right thing to do?

And and how can I fight back?

How can I resist this?

So they it goes, it trickles all the way down.

And who are the ones actually doing the executing?

It's people at the bottom who don't know how to think.

They just do it.

They're, there's a book about it called Ordinary men.

Like it was the ordinary men that were doing the murdering because they were just going along.

They were afraid to speak up.

And obviously it's much more complicated than just obedience and not obedience in that case, but that is a aspect of it that plays into the whole scenario of just doing what you're told, being obedient, which was the culture.

There's a lot about the culture of Germany at the time, Like it was they did a lot of sleep training, they did a lot of parenting training that that focused on being detached from your children and that they were just supposed to obey the rules and do what they're told like.

So that definitely played into it because that was a major emphasis of the entire focus of the culture at the time was to detach from parents and just do what you're told.

So our goal is to raise children who know how to sync for themselves in any situation because we're not going to be there with them the rest of their lives.

We're not going to be there to make the decision for them or to help them make the decision.

They have to learn how to think.

They have to be able to look at all the choices and see what's available and then even learn how to see the choices that aren't available, the hidden ones.

They really, truly have to learn how to think and then make good decisions on their own because that's who they want to be and that's how they want to do life.

That's what I'm after.

I want to raise kids who will choose the right thing for the right reason, especially when it's hard on their own, independent of the crowd and dependent of what's going on.

They're there like, no, I'm going to think through this and I'm going to make this decision.

That's the kind of children I want to raise.

Yeah.

Well, because you said a few minutes ago that, you know, healthy, happy children and adults want to make the right choice.

They want to do what is best for them.

And I know for a lot of people, they probably think, I'm not so sure about that.

Like I know what I was like as a teenager and I know what people are like.

They don't always want to make the best decisions for them.

And I agree with that.

I can see that viewpoint.

But I think our, our point here is it is possible for a human being because we've done it.

We've worked with lots of clients that have done it to get into a state mentally, emotionally, physically, where for lack of a better term, the purity of your spirit, your soul comes out.

And that is the part of you that wants to do the right thing.

In fact, it almost, it can't not do what's best for you like it wants to do what is going to bring you the most happiness and success in your life.

That is, that's the upward reach that we're always talking about, right?

Like that's what's within you that wants to come out.

Now, we as humans, we can dole that through addiction.

We can.

Insecurity.

Yeah, We can lack confidence.

We can buffer it by distracting ourselves all the time.

Like we can get to a point where we don't even know what we're talking, what we're talking about or what that's about.

But if we get to that point, we do want to choose what is best.

And so as a parent, I see my role.

It is kind of like getting out of the way of my child's soul, right?

I don't know how else to word it, but like, I don't want to get in the way.

I want to help them develop that personal intuition so that they can decide what's best for them.

Now this is not.

In like in the extreme case, because we've seen it and it's happening in the world today where we're like, you decide child, who knows if you're male or female, who knows?

You know what?

You get to decide all of that, that that's not what I'm talking about because I firmly believe in having children thrive.

All humans thrive in having clear boundaries and clear standards and clear expectations.

Like we thrive with that, but within that there's a lot of freedom for interpretation and personal intuition.

I think of it as, I think one of the best examples is when you're playing a game, if you're playing the game of chess, you can't just say whatever rules, and that's OK.

You know, if you feel like playing off the board, that's no, you're not playing chess If you're doing that.

The chess game has rules and you have to stay within the rules, but within the rules you get to make all your own decisions about how you play the game and what moves you make.

That's kind of the framework I want to set up here, is there has to be rules of the game, but within the rules of the game, you get to decide.

And so that's what I see my rules as as a parent is like, I'm here to teach my kid the rules of the game.

Here's how to succeed in life.

Here's how to play the game.

But you get to make choices.

So you're learning all the rules, the rules of health?

Yeah, the rules of wealth.

Rules of spirituality.

Of relationship we go through each important aspect of life and like, hey, this, this is what works for us.

The board.

These are just healthy, awesome practices that yield amazing results and they have for thousands and thousands of years and they still do today.

They're timeless and we learn those things and then that's what we teach our kids and so we set up we're again teaching the best thing we can do for our children is teach them So then do we just say hey little guy, here are the rules I know you'll do the right thing because you're 4 already No, it's not going to work right.

And so I think what we're going to get into today is.

Because we haven't read the question yet, but.

It has to operate on levels of maturity.

Yes.

OK.

So yeah, we have not read the question yet, but what let's let's read the question.

OK.

I was recently asked, this comes from a mom of I think two or three, to reflect on my parenting approach, particularly in how I support my kids in developing agency.

It was pointed out to me that rather than foster fostering true agency, I may be guiding them through quote managed choices.

This distinction has been on my mind and I'd love your perspective.

I'm a true believer in the book Hold On to Your Kids.

Fantastic book.

All parents should read it, which emphasizes the importance of strong parental attachment.

OK, if if I could emphasize one thing over and over and over again, it would be this.

You need to have a strong attachment with your child that is 1 going to prevent trauma, 2 going to improve behavior, and three help them to be well adjusted adults.

Like parental attachment is so so so so important, but at what point does agency need to occur?

What are the key differences between agency and managed choices?

How important is it for kids to truly experience agency over their lifetime and what does that look like in practice?

I want to ensure that I'm equipping my kids with the skills and confidence they need to make their own decisions rather than simply guiding them through pre selected options.

Fantastic.

Fantastic question.

Great question and and great framework there.

Great way to test it and think it like am I offering, am I really offering my kids the the opportunity to choose or am I strictly controlling and giving them a a managing their choices?

And and they get to choose, but just, but they only get to choose from within, you know, two options right away.

That makes me think of all the dystopian movies you see, where, you know, yeah, you get to choose what you're free.

You're free.

You get to choose what you wear between these two colored, you know.

You guys are completely free.

You can have the red car, the blue 1.

You get to choose rightly.

Right.

We have freedom, yes.

And so we need to understand and we need to be careful that as parents we're not inflicting some sort of dystopian reality on our children, right, by giving them these managed choices.

Now you and I.

Stand tyranny and dictatorships and and communism and socialism, right?

It's controlling their choices.

You and I were discussing before we started the podcast that, yeah, we do use managed choices in our parenting, and I think it's a good approach, but I think it's best for children who are younger.

It has, it has to be because well, and let's get into it.

I guess we'll start right here.

It goes with brain development and maturity and I and I think those are worth separating at one point.

It's just, it's just biology, Physiology, the brain is not developed.

And so it's not fully developed till somewhere around 25 S In this context, we could keep going all the way up till 25 and and like, hey, it's not completely fully developed.

So we're going to we're going to help a little bit, little bit of guidance all the way up there.

But of course, it's most pronounced and most obvious when they're really little.

And if you lay out, you know, marshmallows and ground beef and poison, rat poison and lay it in front of your toddler and say, I know you'll make the right choices, right?

You literally could kill your child.

Yeah, exactly.

He's like, well, no, because I want them to.

I want to honor their agency.

Right.

And that's when you go to the extreme of my idea of like, there's spirit.

Yeah, no, they're going to end up eating rat poison because no.

And and same with like, and you go with it.

Everyone's heard these examples, but that's why they're examples.

Like you're not going to let your kid play with a razor blade or, you know, power tools.

You're like, oh, you're 7 now go ahead and use the power tools, take that angle grinder and go work on things.

Yeah, you're going to lose some limbs if you survive.

So you have to teach, teach, teach, teach, teach and move with their brain development and their maturity.

Now, some sometimes the brain development's moving along, but the maturity's not.

We all have have seen or experienced or know people that are different maturity levels.

There are many, many of us know adults who aren't mature.

They just never matured.

And then of course, you can't.

You and I are always hesitant to throw out a number like, hey, when they turn 14, then you can do this.

Well, not all 14 year olds have the same brain development or the same maturity.

You can have extreme mature 14 year old like, yeah, this one's capable of far more responsibility and freedom because of maturity, where this 14 year old needs a couple more years of development.

And so that's what I'm saying.

So brain development and maturity determines how far you move out the protective boundaries.

The, the managed choices expand as their age and maturity grows.

And I think that what we've often seen parents do that turns into a mistake is they start out with that approach, which works great when they're toddlers, right?

Here's your managed choices.

Which outfit would you like to pick?

This one or this one?

It works great and it helps prevent overwhelm because if you're like, choose from these 27 options, they're just like, how do I do that?

Or or.

To the toddler, eat anything you want.

Yeah, right.

So they're going for the sweetest thing.

Exactly.

But then as as the child gets older, it's almost like the parent keeps using that strategy because it worked and now they're seven and now they're 17 and they never had the opportunity to develop their own agency muscles or decision making muscles because you continue to offer the same constraints of managed choices rather than expanding that and giving them more choices as they grow so that they get to practice doing that.

And we see too many children and teens these days that literally don't know how to make decisions because mom often, unfortunately, and sometimes dad.

They're saying, they're saying some decisions.

You can listen to his or Bach the classics.

You get to choose.

You're free.

You're a free agent.

But in our family, we don't listen to pop music, and so you don't get to listen to that.

That's not an actual choice, especially for a teenager.

Teenager needs to especially because music is so powerful.

It is powerful.

People know.

And I've heard, I've had people tell me, well, music is so powerful.

That's why I don't let my kids choose what they listen to because it's dangerous.

I get that.

But at some point you have to let your child decide.

Your teen decide what they are going to listen to because they are the ones that are influenced by it.

And if they are only listen to what they're allowed to by mom, then they never actually learn that skill.

And this is, this is what kills me.

It's like, what are they going to do as soon as you're not there, right As soon as you turn your back, what are they going to do?

Well, and.

So many parents are clueless.

And because we work with so many teens and the teens we know because they do it as soon as mom and dad are and are tell us and are they tell us or or they do it with our teens and then our teens tell us they're like, well, yeah, of course they listen to that all.

The time and they talk like that, as soon as soon as the adults walk around the corner, the kids start speaking horribly, saying, saying and doing terrible things.

And when the adult walks back around the corner, they put on the show again of I'm the obedient perfect child you think I am.

And parents are clueless.

They really are clueless.

So you're actually training your child to be dishonest?

And to not deceitful and to not be able to recognize or listen to their own intuition, which is ultimately what you want.

You want them to develop that skill.

And the only way they can is by giving them the option again, age appropriately as they mature to practice making those choices.

The only way this works, I'll throw this in there.

This is a warning.

The only way this works is if you become really good at teaching.

Not preaching, not threatening, not lecturing.

Real teaching.

Which ultimately stops starts with modeling.

Because you teach who you are, right?

Right.

You have to live it.

If you don't live the message, you suck as a messenger, right?

And then you tactfully and age appropriately, maturity appropriately, you expose them to what's out in the world, what's really there and, and the natural consequences of those choices.

That's part of the teaching.

And so they can see it and they can understand they're really wrapping their heads around as they can.

And really below, below, you know, the mid teens kids really can't wrap their heads around abstract ideas, right?

I, we hear people, the time leaders, teachers, parents trying to teach their little 10 year old these big abstract ideas.

What about this and this?

And the kids like glazed over and their brain literally cannot understand abstract ideas, right.

And so they're like, well, it's like this.

I'm like that and nothing's sinking in.

And so the parent walks away.

Why?

I sure taught them.

I told them all about it.

Like, yeah, they didn't understand a blasted thing because you don't understand childhood development, so you have to teach well.

Because if you don't teach well, and then you hear this episode and you think, well, my son's 15, I'm just going to let him start making his own choices.

I'm sure.

I'm sure he'll make the good choices because I told him.

I told him what to do.

I told him what not to do.

Which is very different from the child actually learning it on their own.

Telling and teaching are not the same.

They learn when they do it themselves.

That's how learning.

OK, but but when you say that, you're like, oh, you.

So you're going to let your kid do drugs like because, oh, they would learn by experience.

Let's go get our kids some alcohol and let's go get them some marijuana.

Yes.

And is that how we're going?

To do it, no way.

I mean no, I no.

I'm.

You're like yes, yes, or not.

So yes, a lot of things are learned by experience, but a great many things our kids should never experience.

So then there's that conundrum again.

Do I force them?

Do I can find them?

Do I restrict them hoping they never do it?

That's not been our approach.

We're going to, you know, with our child, you know, arm around the child.

Hey, let's go, let's go, Let's go meet some people who are in rehab.

Let's go see what life is like on the dark side, right?

Let's go see it.

Yeah, so.

For.

One aspect of this, you know, to actually answer this question is that we have an open relationship with our child.

First of all, it starts from attachment.

Like I said, attachment is so important.

And then it starts by regularly, consistently responding to their questions.

Because when children ask questions when they're small, if the way you respond is going to train them to know whether or not they can trust to ask you the hard questions as they grow up, right?

So that's obviously a key piece to it.

So whenever our children have been curious about something like what is whatever, what is weed or what is this, what is?

Sex.

Oral sex, What's, what's vodka, you know?

And interestingly enough, this is actually one to me, it's one of the benefits of allowing them to choose their own music because they will listen to things where they're like, what, what are they talking about?

And I'm like, oh, let me explain.

That means they're smoking weed or that means they're doing this.

And that's how we actually start conversations about things, because they have a question about lyrics and songs.

It's actually a good approach because rather than them having to go out and experience it on their own and learn that stuff.

Or hear from their ears and their ignorant ideas.

Listening to music that has questionable actions in it can actually help teach your children about the world, especially if you have that open relationship where you can discuss it.

And sometimes I'll bring it up too.

If I hear it, I'll be like, oh wow, they're talking about doing drugs and then committing suicide or whatever.

You know, you actually point out what's happening in the song, and it come.

It becomes this opportunity to discuss.

Yeah, wow.

You know, when you do drugs, very often this is the result.

Like, there's a movie about it.

There's this.

So we'll introduce them to movies that portray that life so that they can see what happens, again, age appropriately, what happens when you take that path, Right.

So they get to learn from the experience of others.

But I'll also say, and I, this has been more me than you.

You know, in our travels, we'll often be in a place that has alcohol because we're staying at an Airbnb.

And I, there's been times when our kids have been like, what does that taste like?

I'm like, here, take a taste, and you can see it's disgusting, you know?

And then they create this association.

Yeah.

You don't even know.

Yeah, they have.

We were in an Airbnb with our oldest, and she wanted to taste the vodka.

I'm like air taste it.

Go ahead.

Like this is your chance.

And she took a little taste and I was like, that's disgusting.

Yep, exactly right.

So, but it's in the safe environment.

In that same, you know, as they can understand it and as we're talking about it, we're going to sit down and show them.

We literally have shown our children brain scans.

Yeah.

Here's what a healthy brain looks like.

Here's what a brain that even just has a little bit of alcohol every day.

Look at the brain scan and you can see the big divots in the brain.

So drinking makes your brain smaller.

It literally makes you Dumber and your your brain less capable.

So we're like here tasted tastes disgusting.

Here's what it does to your brain.

Here's what it does to your body.

Here's what it does to your control.

Here's what it does to your thinking Right.

Almost everybody that drinks and gets drunk has massive regrets afterwards.

Like you want to live this?

It's about, you know, almost all murders in the United States.

Let's see.

One of the.

Percent of all murders in the United States, at least the perpetrator or the victim were drunk at the time.

I mean, that's the kind of stuff that happens.

So we're discussing and talking through all of that so that, yeah, we're allowing them to make their own choice.

But it's an informed choice.

That's the other key element of this.

It's not just like, oh, well, you know, do what you want, I guess, if you want to drink.

OK.

And this is important because we're not, you know you're not.

Well, here's a beer.

Now that you're 7, you want to try some?

Go ahead, have some beer.

Like we're not.

So I guess there's there's a lot of wisdom that has to come into this.

Tree I mean, that really is the point.

There does have to be a lot of wisdom.

Like that's our responsibility as parents.

We need to gain wisdom so we can pass it on.

If we don't have the wisdom, we can't share it with our kids.

Because I know people listening well, what age do I let them choose this or that?

And so I, I would say I've heard, I heard a comparison.

So maybe we'll give two different comparisons here, that the younger they are, the more you put up just little boundaries.

We I mean, it could be a little corral even or whatever, whatever you want to say it.

Yeah.

As of now, there's two things.

One is 1 is a leash, 1 is a corral.

And so as they grow in brain development and maturity, it the corral gets bigger and the leash gets longer, right.

And and it sounds terrible.

You're like, you couldn't your kid on a leash.

And it's like, well, I guess here's and here's another one that I love.

If I'm taking my Kid Rock climbing, yeah, I'm going to belay and they're going to have a harness on and they're going to have a rope on and you're like, just let them be free.

Just let them go free climbing.

I'm like, yeah, but if they make one mistake, they could fall to their death, right?

That would be failed abuse.

That's a reality.

And so am I going to blame my kids 100%?

And because I have a great relationship with them and the attachment and all that, they actually want me to belay them.

They want the safety of, you know, if, if, if I fall, if I make a mistake and I fall, I want you to catch me.

I said, well, the the way to catch you, make sure you don't fall to your death, is I got to be able to belay you.

Yeah.

So you'll have a little bit of slack.

But like, if you fall, I got you.

And that's every kid wants that.

Yeah.

What?

They don't want to lose control of the parents.

Like you're never getting on that wall ever.

You're not climbing because it's dangerous.

You could fall, you could get hurt.

So you're not climbing.

That's too far.

Or the parent that has the, the belay so tight, the, the climber can't actually move.

Like they can't do anything.

They've got this major wedgie and they're like, I, I can't even, I can't even go for this and move because you've got a so tight.

So it's not that either.

And as they become better and stronger climbers, more capable, you actually give them more slack and you're like, Hey, if you fall, it's, it's a long way on this one.

I mean, you're not going to die.

I got you, but there's a lot there, right?

And so you're giving more and more and more.

You're going to bigger walls and harder walls, and it's the same thing with parenting.

So when they're really little, I'm not, I'm not going to let them have access to the rat poison or the bleach.

Or the phone or device or the iPad.

I mean, there's a lot of research out now that kids should not be using screen, looking at screens until they're at least eight to 10.

I love.

It so like getting away the screens when they're little.

I think that's phenomenal.

Just get rid of them and then no social media.

I'll childhood.

Like no no, no social media for your daughters until they're 16.

Or 18 even.

Yeah, that would be better, right?

And video games, video games has that same negative effect on boys.

And so I would say no video games until your boys die of old age.

That's the that's the same that video games.

So I'll let my boys have video games after they die of old age.

So I'm just thinking about this in a couple ways because one of the questions this mom asks is like, at what point do you allow your children to have agency?

And for me I would say.

Well, they always have age.

Yes, they always have it, but when do you allow them to start practicing it?

To me, it's like as soon as they want, you know, when you're one or two year old wants to start making their own choices, let them but provide that safety net for them.

And I think that's where too many parents miss an opportunity is that they they just think 1.

I don't think enough parents treat their babies as humans.

They just treat them as like these little things, right, to be controlled.

And instead of having this respect for another human being, they just are, they're trying it.

I will literally see them just like pick them up and move them and like do all these things without a force actually acknowledging the child or looking at them or explaining to them what they're doing.

Because even if you think they can't understand you, they can if you treat them with this sort of mutual.

Respect and 100% they understand the way they're being treated.

Exactly.

So, you know, you treat them with respect, especially, I mean, from the very young ages and the whole time, attachment is very important.

But I would say even more so when they're younger, like attaching with them, connecting with them is the most important thing.

So that's more important perhaps than the choices.

But when they start to express this desire to make their choices, which sometimes comes out as, no, I don't want to do that, no, then provide the opportunity.

Oh, OK, would you like this or this then?

You know, and you provide those simplified choices, but as they mature, they're going to kind of let you know of like, well, I want to not that they're going to use these exact words, but you have to learn to pay attention.

I want to start making this choice for myself.

I want to start doing this.

And sometimes we only view that behavior as misbehavior or bad behavior or disobedience when really it's a sign from your child saying, hey, I want to have some more agency here.

I want to practice some more decision making skills here.

And that's a perfect time to be like, OK, great.

I'm going to think of a Safeway for my child to be able to practice this skill, yeah.

And, and there's a great way to do it.

It's in in.

So that's why I love, I love the idea of doing simulations and simulations.

Rolling from.

Similar across military to emergency medicine.

What are all these?

You're doing simulations so you practice a safe environment to make choices.

So there's lots of ways to do this where you pick this aspect and even if they make the most wrong choice, like there's no, there's no harm, there's no detriment.

Like letting them choose their outfit and you're like, OK, and they go and they might come in out looking like a clown, but they chose their thing and they have it on backwards and upside down and they got, it's like great, fantastic.

Let them start choosing those things.

Well, and I often see the battle occurring with parents all the time when they're like, but it's cold outside, you need to put on pants and a jacket and it's they they literally turn that moment into a battle.

Our approach was always like great go out like that.

And we'll bring the jacket because we're we're going out.

We're going out and, you know, maybe we're going out on a hike.

And they're like, I don't want to like, great, fine, nice.

Throw out the backpack.

Yeah.

And they're out there and they surprise us.

Yeah.

Like the whole time this like it's freezing.

They're like, we're good.

And they're like, I knew I wasn't hot, you know, I would be fine.

All right, or.

You get out there and they're like freezing, like I brought your ticket.

Or if it's, yeah, if you're going hiking and you know they're going to need it at some point, you just bring it.

Like you don't have to turn it into a battle of making them put it on right now.

And then the next thing is, especially if it's something short, if you're going out for 20 minutes, OK, great.

They get to be cold and you get to say, well, yeah, I suggested you put the jacket on, but now you know, and no big deal.

That's it.

But that that's the point.

They had an opportunity to practice making a decision and they learn from it.

But we don't OK.

And I think it's important.

There's there's little nuances here and little strategies because you could force it and be like, Nope, you made this choice.

You're going to suck.

I know you're only 5, but you chose this and they just suffer.

Well, then they hate you.

They hate the thing.

And you just ruined this beautiful teaching moment.

And so you let them like, yeah, it's cold, isn't it?

And like, hey, we got, we still got another 5 or 10 minutes.

We're going, it's so bad.

Like, OK, come here, come get in my coat for a minute.

And I remember doing this a ton.

I'd unzip my coat, hold them in there and and then wrap my coat around them and let them thaw out for a minute and be like, OK, go warmer.

OK, go play for and I'll come back.

And they would go out and come back.

They still knew.

Like I had them.

They, they made a bad choice and they were getting consequence at their level, but they knew I was like, I'm going to take care of you.

I'm not like your choice idiot.

You're the dummy here.

And I I literally hear parents use those words, act that way and the kid wants to like learn how to pour milk or something.

And they said no.

You just wasted all my milk.

I worked hard for those $2.00.

And they're screaming, yelling.

Maybe kids feel terrible instead of like, well, no, let's, let's teach them.

Well, because then that comes back to the other side of this equation and that's the attachment piece, right?

Because ultimately that is so important.

Like I get I don't know how to say it more it's.

Certainly than the saying.

Thing it's so important.

Every 10 minutes attaching with your children is so important.

And so when you have this mercy for them, right, that helps build that bond because they realize, wow, even if I make mistakes, my mom or dad are still going to love me.

Which is what attachment is.

Attachment really means that I can count on the person I need to count on.

To take care of me.

Yeah, they'll, they'll be there, Yeah.

Right.

That's attachment.

That's just.

I can count on you.

Exactly.

And and it's it's amazing we can kill that attachment by.

By doing the things you've mentioned and like.

What's your own fault, you idiot?

What do you think I told you to put it on?

What's your problem?

That kills your attachment.

So now you just just not only did you disencourage them, that's not even a word from making a choice next time because they're going to be afraid of making the wrong choice or a bad choice, right?

They don't, they don't learn that they get to practice and make mistakes and it's OK because that's part of life.

So they're afraid to make choices.

And then two, you're ruining your relationship.

You're breaking that attachment, so you're really just destroying your child's potential.

Now there's a there's a little bit of warning here because it might sound like we're talking about like helicopter parenting and softening consequences and stepping.

In.

To so they do make a mistake and I We see this all the time, especially with teenagers and young adults.

Mom and dad are immediately right there to soften all the consequences and keep them from from the the natural consequences of their bad choices.

Well, and I think that that's why you intuitively used A5 year old because we wouldn't do the same thing with our teen.

Yeah, we might give them a hug and be like, Oh well, so you're.

Cold if my 15 year.

Old some sympathy, but I'm also going to be like, dude, it was your own choice.

It's like you.

Are better.

Hey bro, it's it's cold out.

You might want to code.

It's like I got this.

They go out and like no you you got this and it's right there.

But if he goes out and vandalizes something as a 15 year old and the cops bust him natural consequences.

But like, you're going to feel the full weight of that choice.

Not that that has ever happened with No, it's never.

Happened with us but but it happened with with my friends and and with teens I worked with.

Like they would get busted for doing something really stupid, and mommy was there immediately to take all the consequences, pay the fines for them, the ticket, do everything.

It's all good.

And the kids, dude, I just vandalized and I didn't get any consequences.

Mom brought me home and threw a party for me, took care of everything.

She paid all the fines every.

So he has no natural hard consequences for really dumb decisions.

That's not what we're talking about.

Yeah.

Exactly but.

In fact, natural consequences are amazing.

But natural consequences?

But it has to be brain development appropriate and maturity appropriate.

Right, exactly.

OK, so let's let's.

So I guess what she's saying is like, should I have managed choices?

Yes, that's absolutely for sure.

Let's.

Have managed choices and then keep extending it out as they learn.

And they check those boundaries a little bit because again, that's a sign when they push some of your boundaries, that's a sign that they're ready for more.

They're ready for these these boundaries to be expanded and that's natural, that's normal.

We want that to happen too often as parents, we view these push back the talk back the quote UN quote misbehavior as a bad thing, the disobedience.

It's not.

It's your child saying I'm ready for more.

I'm ready to expand.

I'm ready to, you know, take on more challenges.

And all of that is a good thing because you're helping them to develop these life skills and so see it as an opportunity, not as some challenge in your life that you have to break your child of so that they can conform and be obedient.

We don't want that.

So then I guess I can imagine a few questions that are people are having.

It's like, well, do I just let them eat whatever they want then?

And that's a hard no.

Like if you educate yourself, I guess one of the concerns is the ignorance of parents.

I heard a quote one time.

It said some children may never recover from the ignorance of their mothers.

Like Yowzers.

And it's true.

It's absolutely true.

So if I'm completely ignorant about how food affects the body and I just don't know that I might be like, OK, well, like I'm going to honor my kids agency that we go grocery store, the gas station.

I'll just let them choose whatever they want.

That's asinine.

You are poisoning your children.

Like there's a lot of horrible stuff out there that's just wrecking their poor little bodies and brains and their behavior.

So no way.

Right.

And just one quick little thing for any of those who have any, any people who have not listened to our multiple podcast episodes about food in prisons, they've done research and there's a direct connection between the quality of the food the prisoners are eating and the level of violence in the prison.

So when prisoners are given highly processed foods, they are more violent than when they're bed natural Whole Foods.

So that house and that's exact same with your children.

So yeah, letting especially when they're young.

I mean, now our teenagers, they get to pick whatever they eat pretty much.

But they learned, they have learned the effect that food has on their body because during their growing up years, we would allow them to choose if they went out to the church, you know, often they get it at church or to in laws house or whatever and they chose to eat crappy food.

They actually learned to recognize, wow, I feel different because of that, but that the key to that was in our home, we had the healthy, good, whole food.

And it it was delicious.

Like our kids love our food, they so to our guests.

But they learned.

They learned that from experience and from some trial and error as they went out.

So now they choose on their own because they know how it feels.

This is what it feels like to be healthy.

This is what it feels like to to eat.

On a right, exactly.

But so then the question comes up though, because if you haven't been doing this from a young age and now you, let's say you have teenagers and you're like, what do I do?

How do I give them agency?

The answer is not to just be like, oh, well, you're already this age.

Here you go.

Just start making all these choices on your own, because that also can backfire.

Because you I just saying it frankly, you have failed to teach them.

That is very frank.

That's very frank, but it's true.

If you have failed to teach them, then they can't be trusted to make the right.

Choices.

Exactly.

Because they don't know even though you quote told them.

I've told them 10,000 times.

Yeah, telling and teaching is not the same thing.

If you have not effectively taught them, then they're not ready to make a lot of choices, right?

Dangerous choices out on the edges.

Yeah.

So in essence, you kind of have to take this approach where you go back to the begin, right?

We have to start maybe from the beginning.

And in a way, and I, I don't know how else to word this, but in a way you kind of have to baby them through making choices.

And as a, you know, as a teen, they can progress pretty rapidly, but you give them a space.

This has to be done tactfully because if you treat your teen like a baby right, they will rebel.

And they don't you, you want to baby them.

But I'm using that in like, OK, let's go back to like, how would I give my toddler choices?

Or how would I then move into, you know, a three or four or five year old and kind of move through that scenario where you're allowing them to practice making these choices.

And then as they make good choices, which is what you would do along the way, you say, oh, good job, that was great.

I gave you this opportunity.

You made a good choice.

That means I can give you more choices, right?

And so you're walking them through this process so that you can ideally get them up to like where their age appropriate and maturity level is.

I would take a different approach than what you're describing.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back because their, their cognitive abilities are enough to really explain and teach things effectively.

And so I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back.

I think I to the baby thing.

I'm going to say, Hey, let's sit down.

Let's, let's have a talk here.

Real talk about maturity and responsibility, making good choices, like here's the truth of it.

And we're at whatever it is, whether it's food or music or media or friends, whatever, we're going to really talk through it and and make sure they deeply understand it and say, OK, now you get to choose these parameters.

But no, I'm not going to let you throw yourself off the Cliff.

Well, OK, I agree with you with that.

And that's why I think we're actually saying the the same thing.

That's what I mean by babying, because you're going to give them fewer options to protect them than you would if they were already age appropriate, maturity level appropriate at making decisions.

Right.

That's kind of what I mean.

Is it the way you you sit down?

Yeah, because they're older.

You sit down and you have these conversations with them.

But the way it's actually acted out in the world is not like, well, you get to decide how fast you drive the car, you know, like it doesn't work that way because they haven't yet had enough practice at building their decision making muscles to be able to make a good decision.

So I think we are saying the same thing.

It's like the way it's acted out in the world.

I'm not just going to let them go ahead and have access to all choices because they don't yet know how to think through that.

Yeah.

I think there's some great comparisons here to, to kind of all these different angles to wrap our heads around it.

Like if you've if you've grown up with weapons, knives or guns and and you've trained your kids how to use them well and you've seen it again and again and again, you just drill it through and you like, you know that they make good choices and they're safe.

Then, you know, your kid comes in.

Hey, can we take the gun down and go out, go out shooting.

Yeah, Go ahead.

And the other kid.

Hey, can I?

Nope, you cannot.

Right.

Wait.

What?

That's.

Yeah.

Well, there's no such thing as a fair affairs where pigs are in ribbons.

You haven't proven again and again and again how do it?

Would you like to go with me right now and and up your up level your skills?

Yeah, let's go.

One of the phrases we've used in our house a lot as especially as our kids were growing was, oh, well, you haven't passed that class yet.

And essentially it was this idea that if you want to be able to do something on your own, you have to take the class, whether from me or you or one of the older kids of like, this is how you do the thing.

And sometimes they'll it'll be over even simple things like no, you can't pour your own Maple syrup, pure Maple syrup.

That's not it's expensive because you haven't passed that class.

And when you pour, it is.

Every time you grab a syrup bottle exactly on your.

Plate, right?

So no, you don't get to pour your own syrup until you've passed the syrup pouring class, right?

And so at any time I can bring that up and my kids know exactly what I'm talking about, I'll say no, I'm sorry.

You can't do that on your own because you haven't passed the class.

Here's a perfect example where she's 11 now.

When she was 10, she wanted to ride the electric scooter on her own.

And she's like, hey, can I go do it?

No, you can't because you haven't passed the class.

But let's go out right now and I'll train you.

Let's go practice, practice, practice.

And so I went and her older siblings went and we just practiced until she became really good at it.

And then she's like, OK, I, you know, essentially like, hey, you've passed the test, right?

So then she'd say, hey, dad, can I go take the scooter and like, go for it?

And she would go out on her own and cruise all over and drive up and down all over the place because she had the skills to do.

It and to be clear here, this is all happening on our own property, not she's not driving out Rd. in Portugal, she's riding around on our property, on our.

So even in a, in a, in a protected neighborhood or something, I might, I might know where she's like, Hey, you understand how cars operate and there's those levels, right?

And again, these, these are just metaphors or analogies or comparisons.

So you're like, OK, here's 1.

You know how to operate it.

The next level is can you operate it with another vehicle on the road?

Can you think through these things?

And that's what you do with our kids on all their choices, expanding their great job.

You can do it here in this controlled environment, but I, I notice you're really good at making choices at our house.

Can you make good choices at your friend's house?

Can you make good choices out of the public thing?

Can you make good choices under pressure?

And so again, this all fits into our overall strategy of how we're teaching our kids how to think and make good choices.

So we start at the easy level.

We start in the simple simulation here.

You're doing great.

Now let's go and I'll, we'll deliberately do this.

Let's go add pressure.

Let's go out pressure.

Let's go out pressure.

And then ideally you're getting your kid eventually to a point where they're surrounded by knuckleheads doing dumb things or trying to pressure them do something and your kids standing there with a smile like I'm not doing it.

There's there's nothing you do to maybe do that because it's just dumb and that's not who I am.

Because they've gained that ability to be able to think through first, second, third level thinking there and the consequence.

And handle all kinds of different aspects of pressure or stress.

And so I think one of the ways to do this, which seems so simple, but it's it's not used often enough with parents, is a parent will very often have some sort of hesitant, you know, a kid will ask to do something and a parent has this hesitation about them doing it.

But often because the parent quite can't articulate it to themselves, then of course they don't have the ability to articulate it to them, their child be able to explain to them, well, yeah, you've done this before, but it was in this scenario.

And so I'm comfortable with you doing it in that scenario.

But now you're asking it to do, you're asking to do the same thing in this scenario.

And to you, it seems like, well, it's the same.

But to me, And again, all of this can happen almost instantaneously if you understand it.

But then you have to learn how to articulate it and then to explain it to your child.

Teach it.

So that's a perfect teaching.

Yeah.

But in this scenario, here's potential problems that could come up and you haven't yet passed that class to be able to handle it in that scenario.

So yeah, I want to be able to say yes to you, but first we have to do the class.

That's the type of scenario.

And role-playing simulation that can take place that helps you help your child be able to expand their agency and their their choices, right?

Because you're constantly teaching them how to think at new levels and understand additional factors.

Yourself, essentially, that's what articulation is.

You're thinking out loud and explaining the situation to the child.

But all of this, of course, is almost impossible to do if you don't have a relationship with your child.

If you don't have attachment with your child or your teen, you're not going to be able to do that because they're immediately going to start arguing with you and saying, well, you don't even know what you're talking about and you're just trying to make excuses and you just don't believe in me.

And of course they're not going to believe you that it's not, that's not the case if you don't have that strong attachment with them.

So behind all of this, you have to work on building your attachment, strengthening your relationship.

Which another way to say that is, you know, earning, earning influence and persuasion you know and respect so that your children want to listen and learn from you.

I think that that the way you're wording it could be misread by people because then it's almost like the influence is the goal as opposed to the attachment or bond with the child.

Influence comes from attachment.

Like if you have a strong bond with your child that earns you influence and respect.

But if you go for like I'm trying to get respect with my kids, it's not as it you won't get it.

It's like one of those ironies of life, Like if you try to get respect, you're not going to get it.

But if you try to bond then you can also get respect.

Got to have the relationship and the connection.

Some, some might be think.

I think one thing I wanted to share is like some people might be wondering if we, if we do have things that we just do not allow in our home.

And yes, of course, absolutely, there are certain things we just, we just don't allow, we just don't tolerate.

Well, we our whole last episode was on things we never do, which is very insult insightful.

It's like, yeah, this is not allowed.

Like you are never allowed to hit.

You're never allowed to say mean or rude things.

Are there, are there music, you know, music, media, movies that we'd never allow?

Absolutely.

There's just, there's trash that's not coming in, foods, drinks, like there's all kinds of things.

People within that, and this is the point, like, you can have those boundaries up, but within that there's still a lot of choice, right?

And so it's OK to be like, yeah, maybe I wouldn't pick that song myself, but it's within the boundaries.

And so if that's something you want to listen to, OK, great.

Right.

There are a few things here.

Maybe I'll just go through them and we can touch on them a little bit.

The child makes a decision that may not align with what the parent prefers.

That happens for us.

As long as it does not push beyond those boundaries of what we believe or the keys to happiness and success, right, then we're OK if we wouldn't be our preferred choice.

But all right, that's your choice.

But we're going to think through that, We're going to learn how to articulate it.

We're going to talk about it.

We're going to talk about why we have our preferences.

But preferences are OK if they're different, like, hey, I prefer this, you do that as long as there's no harm there.

And it's not not in the short term or the long term.

They prefer a new zoo and you're wearing a a pink one.

OK, OK, right.

You know what I mean.

Like those things aren't a big deal.

The parent supports and guides, but doesn't control like, and this is kind of, this is where it gets tricky because providing managed choices is a form of control.

But as long as you continue to expand those boundaries, then it can be seen more as a safety net than actually a form of control, right?

That's, I guess that's the difference between a, a good parent and a tyrant, right?

The tyrant's going to have it like a vice grip around the kid with, with almost no room to move where the good parent is going to teach and teach and teach.

And so like you, you got a, you got a lot of slack here.

You have a lot of room to make choices.

Yes, you're, you're, you can't go over that way.

It's too far.

And you can't go the other way.

It's too far.

Within these balance, you have a lot of choices and you can do things that I wouldn't do and I wouldn't prefer.

I mean, there's all kinds of stuff in here, but there's no like long lasting harm.

You're you're not going to get hurt, You're not going to really get in detrimental choices.

And because I've worked with youths for so long, there's signs and symptoms and kind of mile markers towards destruction.

I'm not going to let my kids even hit those because I know and I'll teach them and they'll think, well, I just did this.

It's not that big of a deal.

I'm like, no, that's actually the first step towards destruction.

I've seen it again and again.

And if, if you don't stop that, then the second one's this and you remember this kid down the street and, and this person over here and, and my, you know, my brother and mom's whatever, you know, so and so's cousin, like that's where that goes.

So what we're teaching constantly as we're expanding those those boundaries.

Right.

Some other examples here are, you know, if, if they choose clothing, clothing that's not your style or your preference.

You know, so many parents make a battle over what their kids wear.

And I, you know, my 8 year old, I would love for her to wear things that are a little more cute, but she loves comfort.

Like that's her thing.

She just will go for comfort.

And I'm like, OK, you know, that's her choice.

That's her preference.

So she gets to wear what she wants.

That also gives me a little more leverage on days when it matters more to me.

Like we're going to have a picture where I'm like, you know, I let you wear what you want most of the time, but today, please wear this.

You know, So what about I?

I immediately come to my mind.

Some young man wants to wear really obscene things, and some young woman wants to wear just scantily.

Yeah.

Now my first thought is that all should have been prevented.

Years ago.

That's that's what I believe too, because I think that when you get, whenever you get to the extremes in anything, if your child is extreme in any area, that is an issue, an unmet need that has been exacerbated so far that they are now.

It's essentially it's a form of attention seeking or trying to fulfill unmet human needs if your child's needs are met for the most part.

They won't ever get to.

That it doesn't get to the extreme.

So that's why the prevention is so important.

Like if you help, things go right, if you prevent, then you don't have to fix what's going wrong.

If your child is wearing obscene, absurd things, that's a sign of some other issue that needs to be addressed, addressed that almost inevitably that goes away problem.

Goes away him.

Yeah.

So it's good getting to the root cause of the problem.

In both of those cases where you have a young lady who wants to wear scanty clothes or a young man who's wearing some obscene something other, they're both starving for attention, right?

And they're both a little bit clueless and naive about what it is they're doing and what kind of attention it actually attracts.

And how every one of us is a billboard, a walking billboard, and we're advertising to other people what's happening behind the scenes, like what we're thinking, what we're feeling, what we're going through, what Yeah, who we are and you know, So in.

Yeah, in that case, it's it's a indication of something else that once.

So for me, in that scenario, if that was my child, I would not focus on the clothing.

Like that would not become our point of argument or disagreement or the battleground.

I would actually ignore the clothing completely and I would focus on, again, attachment in the relationship because if I attach and if I fulfill those needs that are unmet of their own accord, they're going to start changing their behavior.

So that's where I would focus, OK, a child deciding how to spend their free time, even if it's not quote UN quote productive for us, we've always had the boundaries there in place.

You can do anything you want.

You just cannot do these things being on screens, watching a movie all day long.

But anything else, If you want to walk around outside doing nothing, great.

If you want to sit in the hammock, great.

If you want to play Legos all day, great.

And this is the approach we've taken with homeschooling.

Like we've provided these boundaries of what you can't do, but anything else is pretty much free game.

And the only thing we, the things we put in the can't do section are things that would lead to trouble, lead to underdeveloped, lead to addictions, lead to just a waste of life.

But then otherwise we open up the space where there's all kinds of choice to do good things.

It's like basically essentially what it is like any good thing you want to do, go for it.

Any bad thing, we're going to, we're going to cut it off.

And here's why we're going to talk through this and and go and and if if you're good at explaining things and teaching your kids like.

Oh, that makes.

Sense.

Yeah, it totally makes sense.

I didn't.

I didn't realize that I don't want to.

I don't want to end up like that.

So I'm not going to do that, yeah.

And, and I think especially for homeschooling, that's significant because we've had that approach.

You know, if our kids wanted to spend the whole day painting, great, they did.

I was not there saying, well, you have to do your math or you have to do this.

Now, I do have a system that that requires them to do those things.

If they want certain privileges, like if they want to listen to their audio book or if they want to watch a movie on movie night or whatever, then yeah, you've got to check the boxes here.

Do your math, do your English, whatever.

Again, all that's age appropriate or development.

Appropriate, but it's all.

But the point is ultimately they are opting in.

So if there's a day when they're like, well, I don't care about listening to my audio book or care about doing that, I'm going to spend the whole day painting or crocheting.

Great, you are welcome to do that.

And I'm not going to be there making it some sort of battle or issue.

Yeah.

So that same thing that's.

That's some parents might be like, what?

What if they just want to play Legos for months and months?

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

That's great.

You know how much brain development is going on while they're playing Legos, how much creativity, how much?

Role be behind they won't be up with their peers exactly and and they'll come around and with that kind of brain development and then a a settled, comfortable, healthy person with good relationships, freedom and choice without us outside these outside arbitrary stressors.

Then then when that kid says, you know, hey, I'm ready to do some classes today, they're going to fly through the material and they're going to learn it so quickly.

Besides, parents don't understand the the power that comes behind that child making that choice on their own.

Like that is where the real power lies and that's what you want most.

You want your child to opt in, to choose to do those things because that's something they actually want to do because they understand the benefit of it for themselves.

The other question, of course, is like, well, what if they mess up?

What if they make a mistake?

And I'm like, great, That's the point.

That is the point.

We want them to make as many mistakes as possible while they are young and the consequences are small, so that when they are in college they don't get to make all their mistakes then, because that's the worst time to start making your mistakes.

You want your kids to make mistakes.

You want them to say no to the jacket and get cold.

You want them to go without a meal.

You want them to go to bed too late because they've made a bad choice and then wake up grumpy so that you are there to guide them through and explain to them, Oh well, this is happening because you made that choice.

You're grumpy now because you chose to stay up late.

You're grumpy because you didn't eat right.

They make the mistakes and you're there to guide them through understanding the consequences of their choices.

That's the best time for it to happen.

Love that.

Hey, good.

This is great.

Yeah, there's there's a lot to it and there's it's an art and a science and we could go through 1000 different scenarios.

And in some of these cases, there's going to be some ironies where in one instance you'd say yes and the other instance you'd say hell no.

And there's going to be situations like that.

And so it seems like, well, wait, wait, wait a minute.

And, and you have to feel that out.

And with one kid it might be yes and one kid it might be no.

And one, you know, a year earlier, it's no.

And a year later you're like, absolutely, go for it.

It, it's going to go on their, their comprehension, your relationship, what they're going after each child and their, their own weaknesses and strengths.

So it'd be very different.

So you, you got to be paying attention.

You know, as parents, we have to be paying tons of attention.

And we've got to be reading everything, reading situations, reading people, really being aware and alert, and then making good choices inside of that to say, well, yeah, go ahead, you, you choose.

But I guess the framework that Rachel I want to encourage today is, is allow them to make as many choices as absolutely possible.

But you have to be really, really good as a parent of understanding second and third level consequences.

Yeah, 'cause if you say, well, this, this is pretty safe.

You know, in this situation, worst case scenario here is like something like that, yeah, go ahead and choose.

You got this.

And even in your head, you're like news.

And nothing would be good.

That's going to cost money.

If they're going to feel bad, it's going to be a rough experience.

Be like, ultimately it's pretty safe.

It's a good learning experience here.

And let them, let them have it.

If you're wise enough to go like, oh, that could be really bad.

Then you say, hey, hey, bud, in this case, I'm not.

I'm going to put a boundary there because if you misstep that just a little bit, there's actually a really big consequence here.

It could be super serious.

And they're like, why it won't happen, I don't know, but yeah, I'm sure it won't.

But it has happened here.

Let me show this video.

Here's a video where it actually did happen.

That won't happen to me yet, but it could.

So you have to prepare for that.

We're going to be safe and we're going to stay away from that edge.

Yeah, but over here you can do whatever you want, just not over there.

I can't even tell you how many times when my specifically my girls were growing and they would ask me, can I make this?

Can I bake that?

And in my head I thought I'm going to caught them materially turn out and you know, but I said yes because that's how they learn.

That's how they learned how to cook.

And now you know all of my girls can cook, including my 11 year old.

And.

The boys too, but because they were allowed to practice and make mistakes.

And I said yes when they asked.

OK.

Just to as we close, just a few questions that we can ask ourselves to know if we're actually supporting our children making age or using their agency or if we're just continuing to keep the same rigid managed choices that we should have abandoned when they were toddlers, right or became young children.

Am I more invested in my outcome or in their learning process?

Do I?

OK.

And and by outcome, one of the things that has to be included with outcome is we are so worried about how other people are going to see us, right?

So many parents control their kids because they're worried about how their peers, how the parents peers will see them.

If I let my child go out like that, they'll look like an orphan and.

And I'll be judged as a bad mom or a bad dad or if I let my kids make mistakes.

Oh, no.

And so we're, we're controlling our kids.

We're making choices that are unbelievably selfish.

Well, and we often, especially for busy moms, we're worried in our outcome like, am I going to be on time or am I going to do this or am I going to be able to make it here?

Our, our lives are so busy, so structured, so strict, so stressed that there's not room.

We literally think there's no time for my child to make a mistake.

And that's really a horrible environment for a child to grow up in because if they learn they can't make mistakes, they're going to grow up with perfectionist issues and all kinds of other things.

And so for me at least, that's one of the reasons I am a big advocate for homeschooling is because it provides that space for children to be children and to be able to learn and try and, and, and make mistakes and have space for free time.

It's so much more healthier for them to grow and develop.

OK.

Do I let them experience natural consequences?

I mean, that's one easy place to start.

It's just like, stop removing the natural consequences.

You know, if they make a choice and there's a consequence, we'll just let them experience it.

Even though we can, like we get the example you gave before, we can offer a little bit of mercy.

For the little ones.

Especially for the little ones, right?

Another great question.

Can they respectfully say no to me if I asked them to do something?

Can they say no?

If you don't have that space in your family then I would re evaluate that because children need to be able to say no.

They need to be able to ask why they they deserve an explanation if you ask them to.

Like this is one of the things I've always had about respecting my children.

If I ask them to do something, they deserve an explanation if they ask for.

If I can't come up with an explanation besides because I said so or because I'm the boss, then I'm limited in my ability to parent.

I should be able to give them a really good reason about why I'm asking them to do the thing I want them to do, and if I don't know, I should think about it.

I got AI got a message recently from a mom.

She was trying to, you know, allow the kids to make choices and inviting them.

And I love this idea of inviting them to participate instead of making them like, hey, here's all the chores that need to be done.

I'd love your help.

Would you be willing to help us and the the invitation and invite so that basically what's happening is is over, you know, thousands of experiences.

The kids like, yeah, of course I'll help.

They're choosing to help instead of being forced to.

So this mom reached out.

She said, well, I have this 9 year old.

I keep inviting him and he's like, no, I'm good.

Nope.

And she's like, what about this?

What about no, no, I'm good.

And so he, he's in this stage or space or whatever.

I don't know all the details where he's just like, I don't want to help.

And she's like, what do I do then?

Do I bake him?

And and in that instance again, it's effective teaching.

You're like, well, hey bud, so I provide you like all the and it's I'm not manipulative, I'm not lecturing.

I'm.

Like it's providing understanding of the situation.

Context So like, you know, like you're sitting on that couch that I paid.

For well, I think even like, let's go to a very specific small example of like I'm asking you to clean your dish or help clean up the kitchen.

And so really, yeah, maybe you don't want to help, but because you do want to eat, at the very least, you need to do this.

Like that's a natural consequence.

Because if I was living in my own house by myself, if I wanted to eat, I would have to at some point clean up after myself so I could eat again, right?

Like that's just how that's just how nature works.

We have to clean up after ourselves if we want to eat.

So in that scenario you would quote UN quote make them by helping them understand the principle behind it.

If you want to eat, you have to clean up after.

Something and well, I still don't want to say, OK, well let's let's just make a deal then.

If if you don't want to help clean up after meals, then maybe tomorrow you don't get lunch.

I guess.

Is that dinner tonight?

Oh.

Yeah, not at dinner.

Are are you OK with that arrangement?

Because I I have no obligation to feed you.

And I do feed you.

I pay for the food and everything.

I prepare it.

So like you're you're my part is buying the food and helping prepare your part.

Just cleaning up.

So if if you don't want to do that then like.

I'll start.

I can buy the food.

You can buy your own food.

And there's been a couple of times where our kids are like, oh, fine.

And then they missed the meal.

And it doesn't go beyond that.

They go to bed hungry.

And the next day they're like, I'll gladly clean up.

We're the same.

OK, Help.

Help clean up the family room.

Like, no.

Well, do you like the couch?

Do you like the carpet?

The toys?

Do you like?

And I'll often say, wait, you don't like these toys anymore?

I'll just donate them in and they're like, well, no, I like them.

If you like them, you need to take care of them.

Otherwise I'm getting rid of them because they're cluttering my space.

Or what, you don't like temperature controlled environments, but you're telling me is you don't like to be in here, you'd rather be out on the front porch and whatever the weather is like OK, like see ya.

OK, excuse me.

All right, Well, essentially the point here is like, we don't have to be perfect at this.

You know, the goal is not to be perfect parents, but the goal goal is to recognize this dynamic process that you were describing before.

Like it's not static.

And that's the biggest challenge.

You can't just be like, oh, this works and I'm now going to use that forever.

That's where we get into the authoritarian part of it, right?

When we try to use the same strategy forever, not realizing that it's dynamic, it has to change.

It has to change with the situation.

It has to change with their age.

It has to change with the different children in your family.

Like we have to be more strategic, more dynamic, more flexible, more creative.

All of that's going to help us in finding the solutions.

We need to be able to use the right tool at the right time for the right situation.

Love it.

So you guys, if you want more tools and strategies, join Rachel's Family Life coaching program or.

Specifically our 10 series workshop that's going on right now, where we're talking through all of these different aspects.

And there there's so much to it and you can come ask your very specific questions and we're going to every time we meet, we're giving you very specific skills and strategies like I, I don't know, every parent needs to be actively involved in learning about parenting strategies because it's, it is parenting is the most difficult thing you'll ever do in life.

It is so complex and so challenging and so rewarding.

It's wonderful.

And then for the men, I have the formidable family man tribe and it's amazing where we get together as a as a brotherhood of good men and we get to be with other good men, family men as we're going along through life, figuring out all the all the things for fitness, family and finances.

So the resources are there.

Invest in it.

Invest in your family so you can create and live your extraordinary family life.

Love you guys, reach upwards.