June 11, 2025

#316 How to Step Out of the Family Drama Triangle in 3 Simple Steps

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Struggling with constant family conflict or feeling trapped in cycles of miscommunication? This episode reveals how to step out of the toxic Family Drama Triangle using three simple, powerful steps. You’ll learn how to recognize emotional triggers, improve your communication skills, and lead your family with calm confidence—no matter the situation. When you shift your mindset and do the inner work, you can break reactive patterns and create real connection at home.

Are you tired of feeling stuck in the same frustrating patterns of family conflict?

Do small arguments keep escalating, leaving you drained, defeated, or disconnected?

In this empowering episode, we break down exactly how to step out of the Family Drama Triangle—the toxic cycle of victim, villain, and rescuer that silently sabotages your parenting, partnership, and peace.

We share the 3 surprisingly simple steps that will help you break free from reactive patterns and create more calm, connection, and cooperation in your home—starting today. 💥

You’ll also discover:

Why your own emotional triggers are often the root of family conflict
How to recognize the role you're playing in the Drama Triangle (and why it's so hard to stop)
The inner work that must be done if you want to communicate effectively and parent powerfully

Whether you’re dealing with toddler tantrums, teenage eye rolls, or marital tension, this episode will give you the tools to de-escalate drama and lead your family with confidence and clarity.

🌱 Peace begins inside you. When you do the work, the family shifts.

Key Takeaways:

✅ What the Family Drama Triangle is—and how it silently controls your reactions

✅ Why anger, sarcasm, or withdrawal are usually signs of something deeper

✅ The questions that uncover what’s really going on when you’re triggered

✅ How to shift from reactive parenting to calm, conscious leadership

✅ Simple mindset tools to break the drama cycle and build emotional safety

Memorable Quotes:

"Wait, why am I so upset right now? That question is the beginning of everything."

"Your anger is a clue. Follow it inward to discover the real issue."

"When you stop playing your role in the Drama Triangle, the game ends.""Inner peace creates outer peace. It starts with you."

"The strongest families are led by emotionally mature parents."

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Family Dynamics and Drama

11:11 Understanding the Drama Triangle

24:48 Roles in the Drama Triangle

33:38 Breaking Free from the Drama Triangle

40:39 Stepping Out of the Drama Triangle

46:59 Awareness and Naming Roles

54:02 Transitioning to Empowered Roles

58:43 The Creator, Coach, and Challenger Roles

01:21:31 Transforming Family Dynamics

RESOURCES:

Let us help you in your extraordinary family life journey.

How We Raised 7 Well-Adjusted Kids - Without Yelling, Tantrums, Punishments or Power Struggles (+ get THE CHECKLIST: Things We Do Every Day to Raise Well-Adjusted Kids)

Rachel’s ⁠⁠Must-Read Booklist for Well-Read Moms⁠⁠

Greg's ⁠⁠Recommended Reading List for Parents & Youth⁠⁠

Get Rachel's ⁠⁠Family Systems & Charts⁠⁠

Join the Do More With Less Stress Workshop Series for busy moms

Become a Founding Member of our Extraordinary Parent Mentoring Method

Join Greg’s 7-Day Challenge

JOIN GREG'S 90-DAY HEALTH & FITNESS CHALLENGE!

Join the Formidable Family Man Masterclass and Tribe

Gather with us at the ⁠World School Family (Beach & Farm) Resort⁠ in Portugal
Read our reviews here: https://podcast.extraordinaryfamilylife.com/reviews/

0:00

We do not have to participate in drama.

You're just running away from your problems.

You're not facing them.

You're not dealing with them.

I had a crazy temper and I was extremely dramatic.

How can I speak the truth but do it with love?

We're.

Constantly trying to escape.

0:15

We're trying to numb.

Three things to do to step out of the drama triangle.

This has the power to transform family legacies.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast where your host Greg and Rachel Denning excited to help with some parenting strategies today.

0:33

And this one man, this one's important because it's so challenging.

It can be so frustrating, but when you make the switch, it can be so rewarding.

It totally alters family dynamics and family culture.

Well, I think in a lot of ways, what we're going to talk about today is an underlying framework that's occurring in many of our interactions with our family, especially the unpleasant interactions.

0:59

So whether that's siblings fighting, whether that's you and your spouse disagreeing, whether that's something happening between you and your spouse and your child, like this is happening in so many different ways.

And so when we understand the concept, the idea, the framework, the roles of what's happening, then it makes it easier for us to be able to step out of it, step out of the drama triangle so that we can begin to create new, healthier patterns in our families.

1:28

Yes, we do not have to participate in drama.

Right.

I I distinctly remember this point in my life where I'm like, I'm done.

I'm done.

I will no longer participate in drama.

I am out because, you know, for a long time, obviously you're in it.

1:47

If you're in, if you're interacting with human beings, you're you're in the human drama.

And obviously I created a lot of drama and I participated in a lot of drama.

Just at one point, it was in my early 20s.

I'm like, I'm done, man.

I'm so sick of drama.

2:06

And I remember just this conviction of like, I'm out, I'm done.

I hate, I hate drama.

I'm I'm done with this.

And, and of course, I didn't know if it was even possible.

I'm like, is that possible or am I just might have to go live in the woods by myself?

Is that the only way to be drama free?

2:22

And then I realized, well, no, you can literally choose to live differently.

You can choose not to participate.

And so even if your siblings or your neighbors or people at church or work, there's, there's drama happening everywhere, right?

2:38

So everywhere you go, there's just drama.

And I realized I started reading about people and then meeting, occasionally meeting somebody, like they don't participate.

So even if the squabbles going on right there, they don't engage in a dramatic way or sometimes at all.

2:55

And they're living free from human drama.

And it's like, yes, where can I get me some of that?

And so that was our commitment.

And so going into our our relationship, our marriage, you and I were pretty committed to be like, hey, we're not, we're not going to have these big explosive dramatic fights and we're not going to play these drama games of the silent treatment or the insulting or whatever.

3:20

Like, no, I don't want any of that crap in our marriage and definitely not in our family.

And so that was the beginning of this commitment.

Like, we're going to figure this out so we don't have to participate in all the drama.

Exactly.

And of course, I want to clarify with some of this that it doesn't mean, because I imagine some people when you're saying this, you're thinking, well, gosh, Greg, that's just so unrealistic.

3:44

Because again, if you're going to be in there acting with humans and not living in the woods, there's going to be some of this conflict, there's going to be some of these arguments, disagreements.

And how do you just step away from it?

Like, are you just running away from your problems?

You're not facing them, you're not dealing with them.

4:01

And so I think that that's why I want to emphasize and point this out, is that what we're going to talk about today, stepping out of the drama triangle does not mean abandoning your family.

It doesn't mean avoiding the challenges or problems that you face.

That, that one's really important.

4:16

This is not avoidance, right?

Because a lot of times think, well, I, I don't want to be in the drama anymore.

And so we get into these avoidance patterns and it's like, oh, something happens, I'm out, right?

And so we're constantly trying to escape, We're trying to numb or we're getting really busy doing something else so that we don't confront the problem.

4:35

But what we're trying to say is you can face and handle the conflict differences, the disagreements, whatever needs to happen without participating in drama or often, which is usually the case, making it dramatic is like, no, we can, we can disagree and we can work through this without getting stuck in some drama pattern.

5:02

And I remember hearing once, and I forget where this comes from, but a definition that in order to solve a problem, there has to be conflict, but there doesn't necessarily have to be contention or arguing, right?

5:19

And so I, I want to point that out as we begin this, yes, there is going to be conflict in marriage or conflict in parenting because you reach a point where two people who disagree have to figure out how to work through that.

And that has a, a level of conflict, meaning that there's opposing forces here, right?

5:40

There's opposing viewpoints.

But that conflict doesn't have to be ugly.

It doesn't have to be dramatic.

It doesn't have to be, there may be some unpleasantness to it because I'm not going to say it's always comfortable, right?

There's going to be discomfort, but it doesn't have to be dramatic in this sense of there's lots of noise, there's lots of movement, there's lots of like.

6:06

That's what drama is.

There's lots of big.

There doesn't have to be big emotions.

Yeah, and and over sensitivity.

But but the difference is there's no resolution.

Conflict has a resolution.

That's that's the purpose of conflict.

The purpose of a purposeful conflict is that at the end there's a resolution where drama and the drama triangle.

6:27

It's essentially like the same thing is going around and round in circles and it's just repeating itself every so often.

There's no resolution.

That's the main difference to me is that you're you have resolutions versus you just have ongoing drama that never.

Is resolved, Yes, yes, I love this.

6:43

And if we can go in with purpose and we're extremely deliberate about it, then many things can be resolved for good.

Like this.

This thing's I'm noticing a pattern.

We're going to go and we're going to fix it for good.

And then from here on out, that specific thing is no longer an issue.

7:02

We can keep doing that until there's so little or no drama.

And OK, now I know even while we're saying this, some of you are like, that's not possible.

I've never seen it.

I don't know anyone who lives like that.

I've never seen a family exist.

And so, oh, there's my alarm going off because so I have, I have an alarm to go off.

7:25

OK, well, actually, we'll use this today.

I have alarms to go off to remind me of the things I want to focus on, the things I want to do to keep my mind alerted to new ways of being.

Rachel asked me to move my alarm back.

7:41

And there it is right there interrupting our podcast, But that's actually going to be one of the strategies we talk about later.

It's like, how do I remember to do this?

And setting alarms and reminders is one of them.

But I, I want to point out that it does exist, that it is possible.

And I, I grew up in a very, extremely dramatic family, lots and lots of drama.

8:01

And I was not only a participant, but a catalyst.

And I had a crazy temper and I was extremely dramatic.

I mean, yelling and shouting and fighting and crying even in even into my late teens, still the these big explosions and big emotions.

8:21

But then I learned how to to go into a a point of conflict and be able to handle it pleasantly.

Well, and to not because we want to emphasize it's not that you started stuffing your emotions and ignoring them or pretending they weren't there.

8:40

It was learning tools of processing and working through them so that you remove those and then they're not there to explode or to come out in some with some trigger, right?

That's the point.

That's a deal is to be able to resolve these things so that they do become non issues.

9:01

Now that doesn't mean that as you move through life, you then now have no more problems or issues to resolve or face.

Like that's that's the nature of life and growth is that you're continually facing new obstacles, new challenges, new problems.

But the point is, the idea is that those are new things, not repeats of the old one.

9:19

And to me, that's the essence of the drama triangle, is that instead of having a new challenge you're trying to overcome, you're stuck in the old patterns for days, weeks, months, years.

Decades, I think most people get stuck in in some form of a drama triangle and it does it just goes on indefinitely.

9:38

And we constantly are meeting people or working with clients.

So like, yeah, we've been, you know, I've had this thing with my mom or with my in laws or with my siblings and it's been going for years or we've.

Been going to therapy and we've been doing all this.

On and on they go.

They still haven't learned how to actually step out of the drama triangle and to create new patterns.

9:57

And so that's what we want to talk about today.

And in fact, we want to like, I want to make this strong promise because I feel like when people have a surety, it helps to have them more confidence that they can do this.

And so I'm telling you these strategies will work and can help you step out of the drama triangle in like 3 days if you listen and apply whenever the next drama triangle experience arises.

10:23

Yes.

So.

We'll give you tools and strategies.

I want to hit one important piece if I can.

Before we get into what exactly?

Just kind of kind of the the chassis or the foundation, like what wait, what's what's really happening?

I know for me the first thing I had to do was become more aware.

10:42

Well, that we're going to talk about that.

OK.

And then so we're getting into the awareness then.

Then I had to do the inner work on myself and realize, wait a minute, I don't have to be so sensitive and so reactive.

10:58

I can be present, I can be engaged, I can have feelings, but not be so hypersensitive or take things personal, get so defensive.

I can actually disagree with somebody while still being agreeable.

11:16

That's a game changer.

And it's not near as hard as you might think it is, but but that's a fundamental piece.

And I want to talk more about that as we get to the the different roles and then how we switch the roles from one to the other because I think that's a key element of it.

But first, let's talk about what are the three roles, because this is a triangle, of course, and it means that there's three points.

11:36

There's three roles generally within any family drama triangle, and the three roles are the victim.

So we didn't come up with this.

By the way, this is this has been out for a long, long time bicycle.

Of it, it's the blank something drama triangle.

I'll have to look it up.

But anyways, there's the victim, there's the rescuer and this there's the perpetrator.

11:58

OK, so.

So make that up so there's one who's persecuting or perpetrating.

There's the person on the receiving is the victim.

And then?

Somebody steps in to try to be the rescuer.

Exactly.

Around and really go and we'll go through this some of you are like, wait a minute, what what if there's only two of us?

12:16

What if the conflict is this perpetual pattern?

It's just two of us There's no triangle.

We'll get into that too because whatever it is so so don't I guess what I'm saying is don't get caught up on the triangle.

It's like it's only three It's like, no, there's like four of us or five of us.

We have the same drama all the time where there's only two of us.

You know, me and my daughter, me and my son and or me and my spouse, my spouse and a child and it's just the two of them.

12:37

And so don't get caught up on the triangle and it's only it's only three people.

It might be happening all 7 of you.

And sometimes you can be playing two roles or whatever different.

OK, so let's talk through it.

So the victim though, essentially we're not when we're saying the victim, it's not actually someone who is necessarily an actual victim.

12:57

They're simply playing the role of someone who is being victimized, so they're acting like a victim, if that makes sense.

So.

It could be it could be like the brother teasing the sister and so the sister is on the receiving end.

Of that, but it's also important for parents to understand that even if the brother is teasing the sister behind the scenes, the sister could be doing things that cause the brother to tease her.

13:23

So just because in a certain scenario she seems like the victim, she may actually be the perpetrator, right?

So we have to, especially if she's pleading for attention from Mama and she's like, oh, I get it.

If I can torment my brother then he reacts then I'm like come save me Mom.

13:42

And so mom becomes the rescuer, and rescuers rescues me as the victim.

And brother gets in trouble.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of nuance here or layers that could be happening.

So we can't just assume that automatically, oh, they're the victim, right?

But it is someone who's, you know, kind of having like, oh, this poor me, I'm, I'm a victim here, right?

14:04

I'm the one who's receiving this unfair treatment.

I'm the one who's getting this unfair punishment, right?

It can also be simply simply somebody who's doubting their own capabilities or they're like, why can't do this?

I can't handle this.

14:19

They're playing in essence A victim role, right?

Like I can't handle my assignment or my work or my studies, or I can't handle doing this job that you gave me.

Or our youngest tries this was she'll be sitting at the kitchen table and like, will you get that for me?

14:35

Yeah.

Will you do this for me?

I'm like, no, yeah.

And so if if she wants a bowl that's up on the top shelf, I'll grab it.

If she wants me to get her some milk, I'm like, you could have get yourself some milk then.

And all kids will try this, and so will adults.

14:51

Yeah.

So it's.

Important.

Like they're, they're like, oh, but I'm tired.

That's hard for me.

And if we're not aware of what's going on, you're like, wait a minute, somebody's got to melt the system here.

Like, no way.

And so we have to know as parents, we have to know when to help and when to refuse to help.

15:10

Right.

Even this happened to me yesterday.

We, we went outside to enjoy the evening and then when we came back up, I had left my phone sitting down outside and I wanted Greg to go get it and to rescue me right.

Then I was like, I need to go get my own phone because I left it down there, right.

15:26

So it's little things like that where once in a while it's not a big deal.

Once in a while, great, I'm going to get my daughter some milk.

Once in a while you're going to go get my phone.

But if it becomes the regular norm expected, like I expect you to do that for me all the time, then you are playing the role of the victim.

15:42

And then of course, the person who rescues you is the rescuer.

So we have to be careful that we're not removing responsibility from our children or our spouse.

We're not removing like their own sense of control and ability to handle and solve their problems and deal with conveniences of life well.

16:03

And and that we're not nurturing laziness because if you think you're like, why, why do I need somebody to do this for me?

Really.

You're like, this is because I don't want to go down there myself.

I'm, I feel tired.

I don't want to go outside or I don't want to go down the stairs.

Come on.

Right, Let's go.

16:19

Exactly.

OK, so second, the rescuer.

The rescuer is the one who's like, let me help you.

Let me do it for OK, I'll take care of it all.

Yes, I'll, I'll do that for you.

And they are, you know, essentially there to help meet the needs and and come to the aid of the people, the victim that needs the help.

16:38

But the problem is that rescuers often are sacrificing their own time, their own energy.

They can often become resentful and so.

Well, and they're enablers.

Yeah, and they're enablers exactly because they're they're enabling laziness, they're enabling lack of responsibility, lack of accountability.

16:58

So.

The what an autonomy and ownership and like, hey, no, I can stand up for myself.

I can resolve this problem.

Like no, no, no, let me let me solve this problem for you.

Yeah.

And it, it's so, as you're saying, as we're talking about this, it's so challenging sometimes because as a parent, I know that there's a lot of nuances and a lot of wisdom required to know when to do the right things.

17:26

Because even as we're saying this, I, I can think of examples where sometimes that is what you need to do to, to support or help or nurture your child.

It's something you definitely need to be doing for babies.

Like when a baby cries, you should immediately be responding to their needs.

17:45

If your toddler needs help, you immediately, like you essentially rescue them now.

Not to an extreme where they they can't learn to do anything on their own, but you're there to support them when they feel like they've reached their limits.

You're there to pick up the slack.

18:01

You're there and.

I would say that's the case all the way.

Going up the limit should extend.

So even, you know, OK, there's 6, you're still going when they reach their limits when they're 16, you still step in when they reach their limits.

Even at 26, they really push their limits and their limits are substantial and you can step in Fantastic.

18:23

That's great.

But the biggest challenge here is having the wisdom of knowing when they've actually tried and reached their own limits versus when they're just being lazy or being a victim.

I, I would say in general, obviously I'm generalizing here, but in general, moms are tempted to step in too soon and dads are tempted to step in too late.

18:47

They're like, Nah, let them toughen up, let them suffer though.

And so we're there to compliment each other, but unchecked and unbalanced, mama's stepping in too soon and the kid doesn't develop enough.

Or dad doesn't step in soon enough as the kid feels unsupported and decent and has that that disconnect and attachment issues now.

19:05

Like, gosh, when I really need it, there's nobody there, right?

So it's both sides, and this is important.

Exactly.

OK, let's go now to the persecutor.

I, I, I do want to say this because we missed, we might think all the most of the time it's one of the parents is the rescuer, which is very often the case.

19:23

It has also been the case that one of the siblings or one of the children feel like they have to be the rescuer.

They'll intervene.

I've seen a child feel like they have to be the rescuer for both the parents.

I've seen a child feel like they have to be the rescuer of a sibling, from another sibling, or from one of the parents, or if both the parents.

19:47

So the rescuer role isn't always one of the parents.

Right.

Oh, that's a good point.

OK, so the persecutor is someone who's saying this is your fault.

So we we can think of the persecutor as someone who's inflicting the pain, inflicting the the he's victimizing, right?

20:08

But it can also be someone who's blaming, who's pointing fingers, who's being critical of the other person, right?

So in some ways, parents very often are perpetrators because unfortunately, many parenting strategies focus on blame, punishment and criticizing.

20:30

And so in that case, a parent is perpetrated.

Or name calling or insulting or belittling.

Even the, the yelling, the, you know, the threats, all of that is Yeah.

20:46

And persecution.

Yeah.

And so again, this could also be, especially if we're thinking about the drama triangle, the child's the victim.

Mom may be the rescuer trying to save the child from the perpetrator, which is dad, who is inflicting harsh judgement and criticism.

21:03

Or vice versa where the mom just has been home with kids all day.

She's she explodes and dad's like, oh man, I got to rescue this kid from the wrath of woman.

All right, exactly.

OK, so.

I just want to emphasize that it'll show up a lot in teasing, criticizing, like and siblings.

21:25

Siblings will criticize each other, and they'll tease and mock each other endlessly, and they may even be doing it in with good intentions.

They're trying to correct a behavior they see is wrong.

Well, parents do that too.

It's often with good intentions, but they're like Oh well, you're so lazy, or you're so this or you're so used.

21:42

To doing that wrong.

You're doing that wrong.

That was wrong.

Getting after it and just incessantly picking on them.

You are inadequate.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yeah, like all of those types of things are a form of being a persecutor.

And.

And of course, I know many parents are saying, well, what am I supposed to do?

21:58

Just let my child be lazy and and inadequate and incompetent.

And of course, that's what we're going to talk about today.

It's like, how do we switch these roles so that we're not running away from the problems, We're not avoiding the problems.

We're not.

We're not avoiding the issues that are real, but we're learning how to actually resolve them rather than ineffectively getting stuck in this drama triangle.

22:20

One more specific example I want to share is that if if a child is having really extreme behaviors, just blowing a gasket and screaming, yelling, throwing things, tantrums at whatever age, that then becomes persecution or, or trouble.

22:40

And, and it's it creates fear or challenges.

It might not be directed at anyone's in particular, but that kind of behavior from parents too, the parent just blows up.

Well, now that's become the persecution and and everybody in proximity is a form of a victim in resistances.

22:59

Yeah.

Exactly.

OK, so.

I want to point out this happens in society, too.

It happens at work.

Yeah, It happens like on an airplane.

It happens in a grocery store.

Like it happens everywhere.

And if you, if you're aware of this and you're just increasing your awareness, you're walking like, whoa, I'm seeing this happen right here in front.

23:17

Of us and we also need to be aware because this is important, that we can switch roles within the family depending on the situation.

So we might be the perpetrator persecutor in one situation, but then we're the victim in a different and in some ways.

23:34

I see that all the.

Time we might rescue in one case, but persecute in the other.

Or, depending on the child right, we might respond one way to one child, but a different way to a different child.

So we're the rescuer with one, we're the persecutes the other.

And then I see parents all the time playing the.

23:50

Victim.

They're the victim.

Of their child.

Well, my kids just do this, my kids.

And like, who in the world is going to be the adult in this family?

If you're sitting there playing the victim and saying my kids, they torment me.

They torture and it's like they're your kids.

I literally saw on Instagram this woman who had made a reel saying my she was in tears crying.

24:12

My 5 and my 3 year old beat me up every single day.

And the woman is one of those reels where someone's like, you know, showing the reel and then talking about it.

And the woman that was doing that, she was like, you are the parent.

What do you mean?

Like how are you allowing this to happen?

24:28

You are the parent.

And you do need to be holding those clear boundaries.

And it was simply because she was playing this role of the victim and allowing her children to be the persecutors.

She well, we're going to talk about, wow, we have to switch those roles.

OK, So because when we step into the drama triangle, we're it's not a positive thing.

24:50

It doesn't produce the outcomes we want, it doesn't produce the results we want.

So we have to learn how to switch these roles so that we can move into a positive space, we can move towards resolution, we can create the change that we want.

So we're going to talk about how to do that and how if you do this and if you are, I guess religious about it, like if you're serious about this, it will create change.

25:17

Like I promise you that it will.

Because once you stop participating in the drama triangle, it automatically, it's a, it's what we call a pattern interrupt.

It interrupts the pattern of what has been occurring.

And so it automatically requires that the other people in the drama triangle also have to become conscious because in a way that's what's happening.

25:41

Everyone's operating unconsciously.

They got into these habits and now they just occur.

And so when the situation arises again, everyone's like, oh, I know my role.

I've memorized this line.

I like, I know my part in this play.

And so it's unconscious behavior.

25:57

It's automatic memorized behavior.

But when you step out of the drama triangle and now suddenly you're over here and you're not saying your lines and you're not doing what you usually do.

They're like what?

They have no idea what to do.

And so they have to become conscious to start thinking about, well, wait, how do I respond to this new role that's now on the stage?

26:18

So to emphasize this, it only takes one person to become conscious and say, wait a minute, I'm taking a step back here.

I'm not going to participate.

And then the other two in this case won't know how to respond.

They'll they'll have to respond differently and they might keep trying it.

26:34

They're like, wait a minute, this is what I always do as I do it again.

And you don't respond to react.

And they're like, and that starts to bring awareness and consciousness, like something, something's different here.

I, I don't know how to respond.

And then it starts creating options.

Yep.

So some of you might be thinking, well that that's just unrealistic.

26:54

It's not possible.

Like this person does something mean to that person and and there's little in defenses.

So I, I have to step in like there's no other option.

There's somebody being mean, there's somebody being victimized and, and I, I have to rescue.

27:12

How, how can this be any different than what it is?

That's just reality.

And I can hear people thinking that, right?

There's like, well, that's it, It happens.

What am I, what are you talking about?

It can't not happen.

And that's we're going to get into these roles, but you have to be aware.

It's like there is a different response.

27:29

Well, especially in a scenario like that, we have to understand that we have to give a different response because otherwise what we're unconsciously doing is training that child to look to others to rescue them rather than to develop their own skills to be able to rescue themselves, right?

27:49

To be able to stand up for themselves, to be able to have the confidence to find solutions and answers.

And so.

And interestingly, we're we're perpetuating the training of the persecutor.

That too, I can keep doing this, right?

And that's being trained.

In this way, and people are going to respond to my bullying.

28:06

Yeah.

And so it's almost our moral obligation to not continue to rescue and to give and teach the tools so that our children have that competence and ability to be able to handle themselves in the world.

Right.

OK, Now there is something I kind of want to touch on a little bit, but I don't want to get into a lot because I honestly think we could and maybe should at some point do a whole podcast episode on it.

28:36

And that's narcissism because that there are some people who can feel like they're more trapped in the drama triangle than others, and that's often because they are overly self involved or overly interested in their own like.

28:56

Themselves, yeah.

Themselves, right?

Like you're narcissistic, that's the problem, right?

And that's where that word's being very overused.

You know, it definitely is.

It's become the hot topic, but basically, if we're self, if we're over self interested, it's like too much.

29:12

We all need to have self-interest.

But if we start thinking and the temptation's real for all of us, we start thinking about me, me, me.

How does everything affect me?

It's all about me.

This is my experience.

That's a very dangerous place to go where you only look inward and and that could be very troublesome, especially in drama.

29:32

Right.

And I, and I'm only bringing it up because that over the years of coaching that we have done, we have seen, and this happens with mothers and fathers, but we have definitely seen narcissistic mothers who inadvertently are persecuting their children and causing a lot of harm and damage because they don't recognize their own narcissism, if that makes sense.

30:04

So that's the only reason I'm, I'm touching on at this point because I do think it's important to at least be aware of like it's difficult to know if you're narcissistic, right?

Because by the very nature of it, you don't think you are, because you just think that what you think is right and most important and your way is the best and you have the best ideas and you have the best interests of everyone and you, you, you, you, you.

30:31

So it's difficult to know if you are a narcissistic, but we've had many people again over the years reach out to us in pain, in tears, saying my mother is a narcissist and it's ruined our family.

So it's a real thing.

I guess that's why I'm bringing it up.

It is a real thing.

30:47

It's not a made-up issue.

It's something that really happens and it can destroy families and it can turn children against you to the point where they hate you because you, by the nature of narcissism, become this persecutor who is constantly inflicting your will on other people rather than being open to oh, maybe my way is not always the best way.

31:13

Maybe my ideas aren't always the.

Best What's really insightful here is the tendency to be overly self focused to become a narcissist can happen in any of the three roles.

If you stay as the victim.

It's me, me, a poor me.

It's all about me.

31:28

Maybe me and you can become a total narcissist as a victim, parent or child.

You can also become a narcissist as a rescuer.

Like I'm I'm the only one that can rescue things.

I'm the only one that can help here.

I'm the I have to save your complex and people go out all over the world trying to save.

31:45

It's it's me.

I'm the only one that can do that.

I'm the only one that can do things right.

I have to fix every problem.

It's only me or like you were explaining the the persecutor.

Well, I'm the only one that sees things right around here.

I'm the only one that understands.

I'm the only one that gets it.

32:01

And so you literally become a sick sorted narcissist in any one of those 3.

Right.

And it's funny, it's interesting too, because we don't, at least I know for many moms, they don't view that as a form of narcissism or persecution because they, they literally believe that they do think that they're way is the best and their way is the most important.

32:25

And what they want and need is more important than what anyone else wants and needs.

And in some ways I think that's part of the feminine nature.

But there's definitely a danger there that goes into manipulation and narcissism and it's very destructive to the family.

32:44

So the feminine nature which is good and beautiful, if it goes unchecked, it gets into that territory and usually it needs to be checked by strong masculine presence.

Yes, exactly.

And so in some scenarios like this, and This is why this is important to understand because we often think we, we may think, Oh well, the narcissist is the problem.

33:06

The narcissist in the family is the 1 causing our problems.

So if they would stop doing that, then our family dynamics would, would fix themselves.

But what we don't realize is that in a situation like that, they're still victims and they're still rescuers.

And if the rescuers and the victims would switch their roles and stop playing those roles and supporting the narcissist in their persecution, then guess what?

33:31

The drama triangle stopped and now new behaviors form because you say I'm no longer going to support you as the persecutor.

In fact, I'm going to step into a different role.

So let's get into what those roles are and how to actually step out of the DRY.

And so we're we're pointing out here the the obvious, and I want you to just write this down deeper and grain it into your life.

33:53

People treat you the way you train them to treat.

You exactly.

That is true in every scenario you can think of, and particularly at home and in family.

So if if you look at your family dynamics and there's there's drama triangles going on or drama patterns going on, just acknowledge and and know like that's trained that's.

34:19

But they're different.

No, Greg, it's not trained.

It's been like that at the beginning.

I never.

Told them they could treat me that way.

I never yell back Every time they do it.

It's like, well, what you've been doing has created the conditioning and the training to allow it to keep going.

34:38

So important.

So we're going to say we're going to tell you 3 things to do to step out of the drama triangle.

Or any drama pattern, I want to keep emphasizing this.

So maybe let me give you an example.

So maybe it's like you and your spouse or you and a child.

It's like, well, every time they do this, I do this.

34:53

And every time they bring that up, this happens.

And it's it's often the case with a topic.

Every time my spouse talks about the money, bam.

Anytime they bring up sex, bam.

Anytime this happens.

Bam.

And I think in something like that where it is two people, there's still this triangle that's going on.

35:10

So say, look, one of them's the persecutor and the other's the victim.

But then there's something that becomes the rescuer, and maybe it's food you leave, or maybe you go eat, or maybe you run away, or maybe you explode.

That's the thing that becomes the rescuer, because it's rescuing you from the situation so that you don't have to deal with it.

35:30

You don't have to resolve it, you don't have to keep working through it.

You just get to escape.

Yeah.

So it could be like we're, we're discussing something that's conflict and then one of us just like lots of tears or lots of yelling, that's the escape.

Or maybe the?

Slamming doors are going away or the kids come in.

35:48

The children become the rescuers because they don't like what's happening.

They want to save mom from dad or whatever.

And so they come in and become the rescuer to take away the, you know, to get rid of, to get rid of the situation.

But if the resolution doesn't occur, then this situation is not really solved.

36:08

And so it just keeps resurfacing and coming up again because it it's going to, it's going to do that until you resolve the issue, it is going to keep resurfing.

And that's what we want to emphasize because that's our entire approach about how to create a better, more extraordinary family life.

36:27

If you resolve the issues, then guess what?

They go away and you don't have to keep dealing with the same ones.

You get to move on.

You get to solve new challenges, right, But you don't get stuck in continually solving the old ones.

36:44

That's the point.

Well, not even solving them, just enduring them.

Yeah, because you get stuck in the old patterns and you just deal with it indefinitely.

It's interesting.

I'm glad you brought that up because there's been so many coaching sessions over the years where people have turned to movies, media, entertainment, food, that the package of Oreos literally became the rescuer.

37:08

It would blow up.

I'm going for my Oreos or I'm drive away.

I'm going to go shopping.

I'm going to just go look at porn.

It's it's some addiction or a bad habit.

OK, so here's the three things that you can do to step out of the drama triangle.

And I promise that this works if you actually really do it.

37:27

That's the only key.

That's that's the only thing you have to do is to do it.

And the very first one is so easy because it doesn't actually require you to do anything.

All it requires is that you stop doing what you have been doing.

That's it.

All you have to do is literally stop.

37:45

So if say the situation comes up again, it's the same old thing that, oh, here we go again.

Here's what's going to happen if before it happens or after you've already started, you stop yourself.

That is the first step to stepping out of the drama triangle.

38:02

So if you always say the same things or do the same things or respond with the same emotions, just stop.

That's it.

Stop.

And we can hear the survival brain freaking out.

No, but if I see my kid making a bad decision, I have to correct them.

38:18

I have to point out what they're doing wrong or my spouse does this or this habits.

I have to and and your brain starts going crazy.

I'm not.

Horrible here if I don't stop my child, if I don't control them from what they're doing.

And so I have to emphasize this to you.

This is temporary.

38:35

I'm not telling you that from now on, forever, you don't do anything about your child's behavior or your spouse's attitude or what you know, whatever.

We're also not saying.

Going thing.

We're also not saying don't correct it.

Well, we're going to get there, OK?

We're going to get there.

We're just saying don't do what you've been doing, or at least in the way you've been doing.

38:57

Because we already know.

You already know it doesn't work.

Because if it worked, you would not be stuck in the drama triangle.

So because you are stuck, that means the thing you have been doing, at least the way you have been doing it, does not work.

39:13

So the very first thing to do is stop now.

And I want to point out because some of you might be like, well, I'm not stuck in a drama triangle.

And, and let's point this out like if you if the same issue keeps reoccurring, you're stuck.

You're stuck in the drama.

If you haven't resolved it for good, you are stuck in the drama triangle.

39:29

And you said something like, well, it doesn't mean you don't correct or do this or that.

I want to say at least on this phase, if it comes between correcting and stopping, just stop.

Do not correct.

If you don't know how to do it the right way, quote, don't quote the right way.

39:46

That's more important to stepping out of the drama triangle at this point.

We're going to get into strategies to use, but I'm saying if you have to choose and you don't know what else to do, that's fine.

In fact, that's the space you want to be.

I guess I want to clarify before you do this because I know some people are like, wait, what if my kids about to do something dangerous or harmful, but I don't want to protect so I just don't do anything and and we're not talking about.

40:11

That we're not.

We're not going to extremes where like somebody could actually get hurt, right?

They're going to run into the street or jump off a Cliff or.

They haven't.

By all means, stop them.

Stop them.

But we're talking about don't.

40:26

Go back into the same habits and routines of like, now I'm going to lecture them and now I'm going to punish them and now I'm going to do all these things.

You're just stop.

Stop being, stop the dangerous behavior, but otherwise stop what you have been doing.

Whatever you usually do generally do, don't do it.

40:46

That's the first step.

And I know that you have a lot of hesitations and questions about that and we're going to get into it more.

But what I'm trying to explain here is that whenever we are in this automatic memorized unconscious behavior, we have to step out of it and we have to go from one of the reasons we're there is that's the known.

41:04

You might think, well, why would I want to be in drama and chaos?

Well, sometimes our body wants to be there because that's what we know.

We're familiar with that.

We're like, oh, this is familiar.

I know this.

This is normal.

This is usual.

And if we stepped out of that, our bodies kind of like in our brains, like what's going on, This is different.

41:22

That's actually where it freaks out.

It does.

The brain will freak out.

I don't know what to do.

And it'll be like warning lights going off flashing and they're like, I don't.

Know what to do something, Do something.

And so you're like, OK, we'll do what I've always done.

And that's the.

Problem, right?

And So what I'm saying to you is that actually what you want to do?

41:39

You want to step out of the drama triangle and you want to step from the comfort and the known into the unknown.

Because when you step into the unknown, that's when you can begin to create change and to create and to become, to step into a new role.

And that's what we're after.

41:55

So we have to step in to the unknown.

Even though your brain is going to be freaking out, your brain is going to be saying, I don't know what to do.

I have to do something.

No, just stop.

That's it.

I'd like to give a specific strategy in that moment, because that's going to happen.

42:13

Like of what to do next.

No, just in that moment.

How to stop?

Yes, so.

Well, no, you stop.

So you're like, OK, I notice what's happening.

Here it is again.

Rising.

I'm starting to.

Get up.

I'm feeling it like I can see let's do siblings are fighting because that's a very common.

42:30

So your kids are fighting.

You usually do one thing.

So now after this, after this conversation, because your kids are going to fight again today and tomorrow.

I mean, you guys, that's one of the biggest things.

Just know it's going to happen again, right?

So I'm getting blindsided by it.

Like I didn't think my kids would ever fight again.

42:46

And here they are this afternoon fighting again.

Now I have to get after them.

So it's going to happen.

So now and and foresee it, like foresee yourself, Oh, it's happening.

And so then after listening to the episode, you're going to see you say, I'm stopping, I'm not going to do what I did.

When your brain starts to freak out and starts to say, well, I don't, I don't know what to do.

43:05

I don't know what to do.

I have to do something right there in that moment.

Just take a couple deep breaths so you calm down.

Like just just chillax and then start thinking, what could I do differently?

And we're going to give you tools and strategies here.

I think ties into step #2 really, but.

43:23

We want the we want the brain to start saying I don't know what to do.

I don't know to do something.

Do what you know, do that.

You want it to go.

What can I do?

What can I do differently to create a different result?

So you're you want the brain to start helping you look for better solutions?

So before we get to that though, I want to say a couple more things because first you, you mentioned something very important.

43:43

You stop yourself from doing what you normally, so the kids are fighting, you're about to walk in and tell them the things you always tell them of like stop fighting.

Don't do that.

You're going to go to time out.

You just stop now because the brain is in freak out mode.

It's because it's thinking as a parent, if I don't do something about the situation, my children are going to end up being horrible human beings and be in prison or jail, you know, for the rest of their lives.

44:08

We can't allow that fight or flight freak out mode to interfere with creating this change.

So you have to convince yourself like, it's fine.

And I remember doing this myself.

This is why I'm talking through.

I did this because I used to believe if I don't do something and correct this behavior now, my children won't turn out and I will be a bad mother.

44:30

But I realized and I was able to convince myself no, if I don't do something about it right now, that's fine.

It's OK.

They're not going to kill each other.

Nothing really, really horrible is going to happen.

I can even leave the room if I can't handle it, allow them to keep doing their thing, and I'm going to go in the other room and start doing these other steps because I am creating different patterns and stepping out of this drama triangle so I can create a new pattern that's going to be better for our family.

45:00

You're not escaping.

You're not.

You're not avoiding.

Your your children aren't going to.

Stepping away to be better.

Exactly.

You're not failing if in that moment you don't do something about it.

So that's the key.

I also have to point out here though, because we're, we're predominantly putting the parent in the rescuer position, many parents and many of you listening, you're also playing the victim role.

45:22

And so you're say thinking here they are persecuting me again here they're ruining my day again, here they are making, they're interrupting me again, they're making me feel terrible.

They're making me tired and angry.

They are making me blah, blah, blah, on and on and on.

In that moment, your brains going to freak out and be like, what else can I do?

45:38

Here they come to persecute me again, the little monsters and you have to stop and say, no, I don't.

I'm not participating in the drama triangle.

I'm not playing the victim.

And you might your brains going to be like, what else you going to do?

You can't help it.

Here they come doing their thing.

45:55

There's no other thing you can do but be the victim.

And that's when you say no, it's not true.

I don't have to be the victim step. 3.

And and then many of you are the persecutors you're going around without unconsciously.

Yeah, so maybe the kids are fighting and instead of going in and rescuing you go in persecuting and say what's wrong with you guys?

46:12

You're always doing this.

What's the problem?

You guys are many parents start the fights.

Dad walks home from first thing in the morning screaming and yell at the kids to get ready or he comes home from work blast or the door starts persecuting.

He's the persecutor or mom throughout the day.

46:28

She's just angry, upset, bitter about her childhood or being 30 lbs overweight or whatever.

Her thing is, she's going around she.

May not realize that's what she's upset about because she thinks she's upset about the laundry or the dishes or this or that.

Yeah, OK.

But then there's also the scenario of where Dad does come home and he's yelling and he's the persecutor and mom is the rescuer, or she feels like she's actually a victim to this.

46:54

So, you know, what does she do about that?

How does she change it?

And So what we're saying is, again, step number one, this is the most important.

And the reason why it's the most important is because it's the beginning of awareness.

You cannot change until you have awareness.

And so when you stop, you give yourself space to have some of that awareness.

47:15

And so that's why this is the most important.

You have to stop whatever it is that you usually do.

Just don't do it.

Just literally stop.

That's what I'm telling you is number 1.

And then we move to #2 which is developing more of this awareness we're talking about is we have to name or identify what is going on and what role we are currently playing.

47:37

So this is where we have that space of like, OK, wait, here I am.

I'm in the drama triangle right now.

What role am I playing?

Am I being the victim?

Am I being the persecutor?

Am I being the rescuer?

Like, you've got to get really clear on what's happening so that you can start to identify.

47:54

Oh, yeah.

And don't necessarily do it out loud.

This is in your brain, especially at first.

You don't say, husband, you're being the persecutor right now.

And I don't like it.

All right, This is happening internally.

It's helping you develop this awareness so that you can focus on what you can do to change the drama triangle because you can't make your husband stop being the persecutor or the rescuer or the victim.

48:19

You have to change your role in the triangle.

So then it in a way forces or encourages them to then change their role because you're no longer supporting them in their role by by staying in the drama triangle.

So you focus on naming it.

48:37

So this is just, it's the next step in awareness or awakening.

It's like, OK, it's starting to happen.

I'm not going to participate.

I'm not doing it.

OK, Now what is happening?

What's going on?

I'm almost like I'm objectively stepping away and looking back at it.

48:52

Right?

You're watching yourself here.

OK, This person's upset probably about that.

And so here goes the drama.

It's like, wait a minute, what if I just walk over and give him a hug?

49:09

I've never done that before.

I've always yelled or run off.

You keep jumping ahead.

They're just teasing it out.

I know.

OK, so you're teasing out.

That's good.

I guess I just want to clarify this a little bit because to many people I know they want, they want action steps, they want to know what to do.

49:27

And yet we're trying to, we're trying to take something that doesn't feel like an action, an action step.

It's internal awareness.

And we're trying to make it into an action step so that you realize, wait, no, this is actually important because otherwise we jump from doing one thing to doing another.

49:46

Exactly, and it's.

And if you don't go through the process of this awareness, it's actually way less effective.

Right, exactly.

We can't just tell you what to do like we did a podcast.

Our last episode was on scripts of things to say and do.

But if you don't have this internal awareness step in between, what you do ends up being less effective than if you practice this step.

50:08

It literally might just be a variation on what you've been doing because you haven't stopped and become aware of what's happening and then deliberately act differently.

You're like, Oh well, the Denning said to say this, so I'm just going to go ahead and say it.

It's different words, but man, it's the same behavior.

50:26

Exactly right.

And so that's why this step is so critically important and we're making it a step.

And I'm emphasizing it here because you're thinking in your mind, I'm not just going to stop and then do nothing because I have to resolve the problem.

I have to fix, I have to correct.

And I'm saying, no, this is the step.

50:42

Stop.

That's a step and then name and become aware of what is happening, what get clarity.

Watch yourself like you're in a movie, what is happening and what and even play it out right?

What usually happens and how am I participating in this?

50:59

Because when you have that awareness, then you can move into understanding how to switch the roles.

And you will likely have to do this with all of the different drama triangles that are happening in your family.

Now of course you can't do it all at once, but when you start with one and you practice.

51:17

And then you start knocking them out then.

It helps you develop the skill so it becomes so much easier.

So yeah, you and I can do this in a matter of minutes sometimes because.

I can do it instantly.

We're out and about, we're all over than I am.

I see it happening.

I guess that's that's what.

51:33

So for me, the naming process is for me so quick seeing what's happening, right?

And, and so we're, we're boarding an airplane and something happened, boom, there it is.

Or you're an international border or you're at a store, just whatever boom, you see it happening.

And for me, I'm like, oh, I'm going to, I'm seeing what's actually going on here and I'm going to address the core issue.

51:55

Not the symptom.

Yeah, behavior.

And, and, and I found that just with diplomacy and kindness.

And basically stepping into one of these other roles which we're going to talk about.

I'm not going to get reactive because, Oh no, here comes the whatever, you know, we're.

52:13

The meltdown.

We're we're parked somewhere in some foreign city, you know, here comes the, the parking police people and and oh, they're going to do this and then I'm going to yell at them and tell them bar whatever.

And this.

I'm like, no, I was like, oh, I see what's about to happen.

How do we resolve the whole thing?

52:30

OK, I'm going to engage.

And then it's just boom, there was literally no drama.

So what could have been very dramatic or even started being dramatic, you settle it way down, we resolve it, and everyone goes away.

It's like, OK, that's good.

Yes, but what what has happened behind the scenes?

52:48

Is this stopping this awareness or naming?

Naming or seeing.

And then stepping into the result, the role that resolves the problem, but that has become for you has become so quick now super.

It's almost, it's not even steps anymore.

53:04

To me, it's like driving.

Like many of us have gone through the experience of learning how to drive.

And when you're learning how to drive, it's two hands on the wheel and then turn on the turn signal and then turn and then move the wheel.

It's it's separate steps that we have to learn how to do separately.

53:22

But then once we get better at it, you can do all those things practically at the same time while you're talking and carrying on conversations.

Because subconscious.

Subconscious and automatic, Exactly.

And that's what we're talking about.

We're breaking this down so you learn how to do this so you can get to the point where, like Greg Denning, you recover in 20 seconds.

53:40

Which which it's important to share that it's not that I'm superhuman or special, but I think it's significant because I used to be so reactive.

I got a raging temper and and something, anything went wrong.

Like the person looked at me the wrong way or said so I would ex instantaneously subconsciously.

53:59

Now it's all the way to the opposite end where something happens and I'm going through these steps.

I'm like, well, I'm not going to participate in the drama.

I'm seeing what's actually happening here.

I'm going to address the core issue instead of react to what was said or done.

Exactly.

And that's what we're talking about.

This is how great parenting occurs is when we learn how to apply that process on a daily basis with all of the interactions of our family.

54:24

Now, of course, when you're starting out on this, it's going to feel so hard just doing the first one and that's going to feel exhausting and like because your brain doesn't know how to do this.

Your brain has different neural networks in there that are used to the drama triangle you're used to.

54:40

So it feels like more work, but I promise you it's only more work at 1st and once you then essentially reprogram your brain, it then becomes as easy and as automatic as living in the drama triangle.

54:56

OK, so after we have done Step 2, we've named the role that we're playing in this specific scenario.

Can I?

Sorry, I want to interrupt there on, on Step 2 because naming it can be challenging.

I mean, realistically, you have to understand human psychology, you have to understand human needs, you have to be paying attention.

55:19

So if you've been listening to our podcast, we, we talk about this stuff every episode.

I mean, you could literally start at the beginning and go through 300 some odd episodes and that would be extremely helpful because we're walking through all the human needs and family dynamics.

55:35

We're walking through everything.

We're we're giving you the tools to be able to name it, to see it for what it is.

And you start paying attention.

And if you've been listening or watching, you start realizing, oh, OK, there's this little conflict going on in the morning.

Well, I'm realizing the kids are tired.

55:52

They're not getting enough sleep or they're coming from school.

They're actually hangry.

It's sleep or, or food or they've been eating candy or junk food.

And it's their behavior.

Their, their behavior sucks after they eat that crap.

56:10

Yeah, Oh, so, so now I'm not going to jump in and do what I've been doing.

I'm realizing we're done eating that garbage and we're going to get some good proteins and fats in their in their bodies right now.

If we're going to, you know, cuddle and connect and feel good, that eliminates the whole drama triangle.

56:28

It's done.

So, yeah, I like that you're emphasizing this because, you know, I was specifically saying we'll name the role that you're playing, which is an important part of what's happening.

You know, they come home from school or whatever.

You feel like you're the victim of their persecuting behavior from their angryness.

56:45

But when you learn to just not only identify the role, but then even on another level, you begin to name and identify the underlying causes.

Like you were saying they're hungry.

In fact, we've said this before.

What is it, over 80% or 90% of arguments between people in the family are because one, at least one of them is hangry.

57:06

Like that's significant if you realize that alone.

In fact, Greg and I will often, if we start disagreeing about something, I'll be like, one of us is angry.

I think, let's go get some food and then we'll continue the conversation later because we realize that is a factor.

It's real.

Or we're tired if you're just exhausted and.

57:23

And Rachel's like, we need to do this on babe.

Like I'm spent.

And it feels like you're pushing my last nerve here.

Like, for real.

I'm not trying to avoid you.

Can we talk about this in the morning when I feel good?

Yeah, right.

Can we take a break?

Like, let's not insist on having a difficult conversation when we're tired or hungry.

57:43

Like that's craziness.

Or, you know, you're home schooling and you start noticing.

It's like, wait a minute, The kids start fighting every day around 10 or 11.

What's going on?

It's like, Oh, well, that child's working on their math and they hate math and they're struggling with it.

57:59

Isn't that true that humans take out their frustrations on the whoever's near them?

So you're sitting there like they're in their math again.

They can't figure it out.

They're so pissed.

They're just livid.

And so they're looking for an outlet and they start teasing A sibling.

You're like, oh, it's the frustration on math.

58:18

Wow.

And I've been just jumping in the drama triangle every time.

We're really I need to go solve that core issue, right?

Exactly.

And I think that this is great, especially as we move into #3 because as we now have awareness not only of the role that we have been playing in the drama triangle, but now the some of the causes of the behaviors or the issues, then that can help us as we move into a new role to know what to do about it, right.

58:50

So let's talk about the new roles in the empowered triangle, right?

Because we're not going to be in the drama triangle anymore.

We're going to the empowered triangle, which helps to find real and lasting solutions, not just continually trying to manage symptoms with things that don't last because we don't want that.

59:11

So if we are a victim in the drama triangle, we're going to move into the role of creator.

And so instead of thinking about woe is me, I'm so picked on, poor me, I, I'm the victim.

59:28

Here, helpless and hopeless, like there's nothing I can do right, which I love.

That's why the Creator is the opposite of victimism.

Is the opposite.

And I'm sitting here like I can't do anything.

They're doing this to me, A creator says.

Wait a minute, I have options.

59:45

The creator says what do I want?

What do I want?

Creative here.

I can think of alternatives.

I I don't have to sit here and play the victim.

I can do this or I can do that or I can do this or I mean on and on and on.

Like here are all the things I can do instead of sitting here and being a victim.

1:00:01

I love that you actually said that it takes the the victim and flips it to almost its opposite, a creator.

Because one of the things that was super empowering and powerful for me in my this journey of motherhood is that I remember and I don't know why it's stuck with me so much.

1:00:17

I guess just because it worked for me, but I remember thinking or hearing from somebody that whatever you think, think the opposite.

And so when I approached the a drama triangle like this and I would stop what I usually would do, I would tell myself that I would say whatever you think, think the opposite.

1:00:37

And so if I felt like saying something like you're so lazy or you're so this or this always happens, I would literally sometimes at least just to myself, maybe if not out loud at first, I would say the opposite.

They're not lazy or they're, or pick a positive, you know, they're, they're hard working.

1:00:54

And I would start literally thinking the opposite or telling myself the opposite of what I previously believed.

So if I saw myself as a victim and I'm like, I'm so picked on, I'm, I have to do it all myself, I would switch that.

1:01:09

I'd be like, I don't have to do it all myself.

I have lots of help.

And yes, of course, at first my brain would say, well, that's a lie.

It's not true, but it doesn't matter.

That doesn't matter because guess what?

The other thing is also not true, at least not 100% of the time.

1:01:25

And if you believe that, well, that's not healthy and it's not helping you because as long as you believe that you're going to continue to have more of that in your life.

If I believe my husband is lazy, guess what?

He's going to be more lazy and I'm going to see more evidence of him being lazy.

1:01:46

So we have to switch what we think because when we do that, we also look for more evidence that that is also true.

And then we actually create and help create more of that in our life.

So whatever you think, think the opposite.

1:02:03

That was what really empowered me.

So as we go through these roles, I want to think about that and I want to, you know, encourage and emphasize that.

It's, it's so much easier to do like right now in a calm moment when it's not happening in the moment, like you get activated and your brain kind of shuts down and you're getting into it.

1:02:24

Your, your brain isn't going to be like, let's sit here and think of creative options.

How can I do the opposite?

But if you do it from a palm state, it's so empowering.

So let's go through the scenario for.

A second.

Can I interject for a second?

Because I guess that's why I emphasize this strategy, because for me that worked even in the moment.

1:02:42

I don't know why and for some people it may not work.

Oh, I get what you're saying, but you're like, OK, think the opposite, would you?

Stop.

And it would literally, it would, my brain would come up with the opposite and that would help me get out of the drama triangle because I'm literally thinking different thoughts.

Most people are so emotionally distressed in the moment that they have a very hard time thinking.

1:03:02

And so I, I, for me, I would think through this outside of the situation.

It's like, OK, whenever the kids are fighting, I'm always, always think I'm going to go over there and discipline them.

I'm going to go over and yell at them and threaten them.

Like stop that crap.

So what would be the opposite?

Like I'm going to walk over and hug them when my kids are fighting, I'm going to walk over and hug them.

1:03:24

Bam, there's the opposite.

And and for me at least, like if I try to anticipate it, then it's easier to think it in the moment they're fighting.

I was going to go hug them.

I'm going to go try that, right.

And you do something different.

Yeah, but that definitely because if we, if we always go back to #1 and we at least stop what we usually do, whatever the normal is for us, I feel like that's the space where we can remind ourselves whatever I think think the opposite.

1:03:57

Like let let me try doing something I wouldn't normally do.

And that begins to interrupt this prep pattern.

So anyway, so victim, rest victim creator, sorry.

So in that space, it's simply about, well, no, I'm not the victim, I'm a creator.

1:04:12

What do I want in this scenario?

What do I want to change?

What do I want to be different?

What are my options?

What are my options for the rescuer?

The rescuer moves into the role of coach.

I love this one.

Well, I like coach.

Or you could do mentor.

1:04:28

You could do teacher.

Basically, instead of stepping in and doing something for the victim and then, you know, disciplining the persecutor, you're like, how can I teach here?

How can I?

Well, let's.

Go back to the scenario you gave of where if you're constantly rescuing the child from another child, you're not empowering them to be able to do that on your own.

1:04:51

But if you become the coach, so like in a scenario like this, I do, I go in with our children, our 2 girls specifically, and if they're arguing or disagreeing about something, I go in and I coach them through how to handle it.

Why don't you try saying it like this?

1:05:06

Why don't you try using a voice like this?

Because right now your voice sounds like this and I, you know, maybe I'll imitate it sounds like this, but you can try a different voice like this.

So I'm literally giving them the tools I'm telling them, but I'm I'm not doing it for them per SE.

Yes, that's.

Not saying stop treating your sister like that because she needs you to be nice.

1:05:26

I'm saying you need to tell your sister, please don't treat me like that because I don't like being treated like that.

And so I'm showing them how to do it. 100% And this can be true like it with a spouse.

And that's, that's more challenging.

1:05:42

So if a husband's trying to teach or coach or mentor his wife, it's generally much more challenging than with a child, say with a wife.

Wife's trying to coach her husband.

And so it needs to be done with tons of diplomacy intact.

1:05:58

But that still is the solution.

So instead of trying to be the rescuer, you start teaching and and I would say with spouses and with children too.

I think the best way is with with tactful questions.

1:06:16

I'm, I'm going to add an element because again, I feel like with between spouses it can be a little more challenging because there's different dynamics there, of course, with the male and female.

And so there's another level because you and I both know that if you're your wife specifically is upset and she needs love and support, the best thing you can do is go to her, hold her, listen to her.

1:06:43

But if she's been playing this role of being the victim or, or whatever, or persecutor, then the best time to play that coaching role well, especially if you've been rescuing her, is after that reassurance, that time of reassurance, if that makes sense.

1:07:02

So then when she feels better, she's calmed down.

That's when you have that talk of like, hey, this is what I've been noticing.

What can we do differently?

This is what we need to change.

I need to stop rescuing you because you know you're it's not making you stronger or whatever.

1:07:18

But it's kind of or I need to stop, stop rescuing the children from you because what's going on, right?

Like.

And in some ways this also does work with children, because sometimes that's what children need in the moment, and then later they need the one. 100%.

The coaching, but what we're trying to do is see it from this framework of like, OK, instead of playing this normal role of where I come in and rescue, I'm going to switch my role here.

1:07:45

And if I become the coach, then of course the next level is, is knowing when is the best time to do that coaching.

Because sometimes all all your kids need in the moment is like a hug and some reassurance and some love.

And then later you're like, hey, let's talk about it.

Let me coach you.

Well, it's time and.

1:08:00

Tactical awareness.

And then on the so if wives want to coach husbands, a husband's greatest need usually is to be respected.

He needs to feel respected.

So if you're like husband, I'm going to coach you about how to do handle this.

He's not going to take that very well.

1:08:16

And so you're not going to step in and like, I know better and you suck.

You're ruining our lives.

Every time you come home from work screaming and yelling, like that's just not going to work out.

He's not going to want to listen.

So it's knowing when, like you pointed out, when to do this, but it's also practicing tact.

1:08:34

Like how can I handle this?

So it's not disrespectful, but it's, it's creating the awareness or, and it might be something like the best way to coach in, in scenarios like this for husbands and wives would be to catch the moment when they're doing something well or doing it better, they handle the situation better and raise the crap out of that.

1:08:55

So, you know, let's say in a, in a hypothetical scenario, Rachel's, you know, doing something that's disrupting family dynamics, causing some drama.

I wouldn't, you know the tactful way to do it.

Be like babe, yeah I crazy love it when you are just cuddling with the kids and reading.

1:09:19

You would tell me that at a different.

At a different time, not in the yeah.

And I'm going to emphasize the positive and how much I love, how amazing is.

I'm going to keep doing that.

Keep doing it.

So in her mind, she's like, why?

He really likes it when I do that.

She's going to start doing it more and more and more and even those scenarios, right?

1:09:35

I also want to give another example for coaching because we, we may think that oh, if I'm the coach in this coaching role, it's always going to be me saying the things that need to be said.

But part of the coaching role can simply be exposing or sharing information with the person you're coaching that helps them develop those ideas and mindsets.

1:10:00

So, and we constantly do this with you and I do it with each other and we do it with our children.

One we're constantly listening to or reading or watching things all the time.

And if we find something, we do a screamer screen recording on our phones or we take a picture of it out of a book and we share it with each other.

1:10:22

So we're like, oh wow, this is a great principle.

This is kind of an idea I'm been trying to think about or work on.

So it's not just coming from me, but it's also coming from this expert or this book or this podcast episode.

That's a very powerful way because it also feels less threatening.

1:10:39

It's not me saying you're horrible, right?

And you need to work on this.

It's so and so saying, hey, if parents work on doing these things, it produces these outcomes and that's, you know, much better.

So that's another way to approach this role.

1:10:56

You don't have to think of like your coming out up with it all yourself.

It's.

I'm introducing this to.

It's a great way to quote Coach.

Exactly.

OK, last role, persecutor now moves into the role of challenger, right?

1:11:13

So it's essentially like, how can I speak the truth but do it with love?

Because in some ways, persecuting is essentially trying to tell someone what they did wrong or tell someone where they messed up, right?

1:11:29

And as parents, we feel like that's our job.

My job is to tell you when you've messed up.

My job is to tell you how to do things better.

My job is to punish you when you misbehave.

But if we don't do it appropriately, then we actually just become the persecutor instead of someone who's challenging them to become their best self, right?

1:11:49

And that's a deal.

We want to challenge them.

We want to inspire them.

We want to push them in a positive way towards improving themselves, rather than feeling like they are a victim of our persecution and our punishments and our.

1:12:06

Hate and if if a if your spouse or another child is being the persecutor, then the coaching pieces is like how can we get them to become a challenger instead of a persecutor?

How can we invite them, encourage them, inspire them to instead of being so harsh and ineffective in what they're doing is like how we get them to be leaders.

1:12:30

So if I had a sibling that was a or a child that was being a persecuted siblings, I'm going to invite that child to become a leader and then I'm going to walk them through that And the spouse is persecuting.

Oh, OK.

How can you, how can you inspire them?

How can you encourage them?

1:12:45

How can you challenge them instead of persecuting?

What you're doing in a way, and I mean, I know I do this all the time with you and with the kids, because too often when we're the persecutor, we go in there and we're trying to tell them that they're wrong.

Like, no, then we they're persecuting and we come in and become the persecutor as well saying you're wrong because you're doing it wrong.

1:13:07

And it's not.

And very often what I love to do that works, say, with my 2 girls, again, if the older sister is getting after her younger sister about something, I don't go in and dismiss that.

You know, she's persecuting her sister by saying you need to pick up your clothes and put them away and hang up your towel.

1:13:25

I go in and I acknowledge, yeah, you're right, she should do those things, but she is younger.

So here's how we can help her.

Here's how you can become the challenger or the coach to help her do those things without ruining your relationship with her by getting after her all the time about it.

1:13:43

Right.

So it's almost like you're acknowledging the intentions of the persecutor because the persecutor's trying to find the truth, that's trying to point out the truth, that's trying to make things right.

It's trying to create justice in the world in a way or.

Yeah, something feels out of control.

1:13:59

There's too much chaos.

They just don't know.

I don't know how to handle all this.

And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

That's can be a very good thing, but we have to do it in a way that's positive so that it produce the positive results that we want.

Love it.

Great.

1:14:16

OK, so let me just review really fast.

Number one, if you want to step out of the drama triangle, three things.

First, stop.

Literally simply stop doing what you have been doing.

Doesn't matter what it is, just stop yourself from doing that thing or stop midway.

1:14:31

I've even done that before.

Or I something happens and I start doing the same thing I always do and part way through I'm like, oh wait, I'm not going to do this.

And I just stop.

And your kids are kind of like what?

That sometimes is enough.

We're like, wait, you're not doing, you're not doing the thing.

What's going on here?

1:14:47

So you just stop.

Second, you now have this moment of awareness to ask question to name what's happening.

Oh, I'm being the persecutor, I'm being the victim, I'm being the rescuer here.

And then to create awareness of well, and I also love to ask questions.

1:15:05

I'll run my end myself like whatever I think, think the opposite or what could be causing this or why are they acting this way?

Are they hangry?

Are they tired?

I'm getting curious.

I'm creating awareness, I'm asking question.

And then three, we move into a new rule.

We move from victim to creator.

1:15:22

We move from.

Rescuer to coach.

Rescuer to coach and we move from persecutor to challenger.

It's beautiful.

I think one thing that each of us could start working on, on the inner work, right?

Again, hands down the best thing any of us can do is work harder on ourselves than we do on anything else.

1:15:43

And, and if this is particularly difficult to change roles, even as we're talking through this, you're like, I want that, but it's so hard.

I just get emotionally so reactive.

It's, you know, and, and I've, we've had lots of coaching conversation like this, that they hear us talk through this and like, I want that.

1:15:58

And in the moment, I, I maybe even cognitively, I remember it, but then I'm so emotionally and mentally engaged involved, like I can't think and act differently or clearly.

So the inner work here is to start settling things down, start resolving some of the inner turmoil.

1:16:17

And the best way to do that, especially in the for you in the moment, this is a great thing to do, is to go do some writing.

Yeah.

Just go to.

Go do some processing.

Not like writing in your journal to keep forever type writing, but like.

Venting.

Get a yeah venting, writing.

1:16:33

No grammar, no punctuation.

It's just a vomiting on paper to help you release and remove those pent up emotion.

That's one of the best strategies A.

Perfect and common example of this is like, wait, why am I so sensitive to this?

Why am I taking this personally?

1:16:50

Why does this feel so painful when you can go right through that and acknowledge it?

There's the issue.

It makes me feel like I'm a child again.

When I was a child, this happened and I felt like I had no control.

I truly did feel like a victim.

1:17:08

And here I am now in my 30s, feeling like a little child.

Like, OK, there's the thing to work through a change.

So if you, if you start noticing your own stuff, like, you know, for me personally, I would get so angry.

1:17:24

That's why I had a crazy temper.

I would get so furious usually about small things myself, like, wait, why am I so mad?

And that, that was my first question, Why am I so mad?

They did that thing.

I'm like, OK, how much is that going to cost?

1:17:40

Like that was $6.

Really.

If I'm going to blow a gasket and just become, you know, an embarrassment to myself for over $6, it brought this awareness, my mind, like, wait a minute, why am I upset?

I'm not.

1:17:55

I'm not going to get upset about that anymore.

And was this after you did say like you're processing work over the stacked up emotions, was it something that was stuck?

This was these were the first steps.

This was the first.

These are the very first step.

1:18:10

Like why am I so upset?

Why am I so reactive?

Why?

Why does this make me so mad?

OK, that person said that thing or that person cut me off in traffic or this like what is going on inside me that makes me so dramatic right there, there it is.

1:18:28

That is a drama triangle.

What's what's going on inside me that makes me so dramatic?

And most people aren't aware.

So I started searching.

I'm like, oh, it's this thing.

I'm like, oh, how do I resolve that?

So that's why I started working through my stack.

Well, it makes me feel it, it, it touches on my insecurity.

1:18:47

Like, wait a minute, that insecurity is mine.

It's it's not external.

So they didn't come up attacking my insecurity.

That's me.

And why am I insecure about that?

Why am I still afraid?

I'm, I'm going to let go of that and I process and let it go and something else happens.

1:19:04

Why is that?

Oh, it's touching on my fear.

What is my fear?

My greatest fear is like being alone.

I never want to be alone.

Well, OK, how am I going to resolve that?

I'm going to work through that.

Me exploding and having a crazy temper is more likely to lead me to loneliness than anything else.

1:19:24

So I'm like, this isn't serving me.

Wait a minute.

My anger is actually going to drive people away from me at which it was doing having a temper was driving people away and and I was getting angry because my greatest fear was being alone.

The irony, right?

It was collusion.

1:19:41

So anyways that that that's why I started asking and I started processing and doing the inner work.

And then as I let things go, like, OK, now I can be, I can be at peace.

I can be calm even when there's real conflict, uncomfortable conflict, like no, I'm, I'm good because we can just work through the problem, not absorb the problem.

1:20:00

Taking it personally and being reactive is super dramatic.

I don't have to like, let's set the issue on the table in between US and let's not make it about us.

Let's just let's focus on the thing.

Well, and I think it's important here because in a way you're adding maybe sub steps to say #2 because in some way, because if we if you go through those steps, you are going to step out of the drama train triangle.

1:20:27

But then to become really effective at Step 3, right?

That that's literally like a whole nother course or a whole nother podcast episode, right?

Like, OK, now applying step three really well.

And as a part of that is what you're talking about here, that you have to do the inner work.

1:20:44

Because what many parents don't realize is that it's our own inner issues that are getting in the way of us being better parents.

So we have to do this work of clearing out like and asking these questions.

Why am I so upset about that?

1:21:01

Why do I feel this way when that happens?

When we clear that out, now we have the space to be able to, as our best selves, interact with our children to help them resolve the issues rather than bringing our own issues to it.

1:21:16

And then it kind of muddies the waters in a way, right?

And so that's something important I think to especially end on because I want you to be confident that this approach will work 100%.

But I do want you to know that as you move ahead with this approach, yes, you're going to find additional obstacles to overcome.

1:21:36

That is the journey, that's the process.

And.

That's what makes you so much better and more powerful.

Exactly.

And it's worth emphasizing here that whatever role you are playing, persecutor, victim or rescuer, there's usually some kind of inner issues, something on the inside that's putting you in that role or keeping you in that role.

1:21:55

So we resolve on the inside, then it takes care of the outside, right?

Love it.

This guy's.

Yeah.

This is so powerful.

And literally within days, sometimes moments, if you just say I'm done, I'm done participating in this drama, I'm done playing that role, it stops right there.

And the others might try to keep going it unconsciously.