#287 How to Help Manage Device/Phone Use for Older Teens & Young Adults

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We're your host, Greg and Rachel Denning. Excited to answer another awesome question that... From Instagram. From Instagram. It's so relevant because our lives are now... Digital. They just have digital crap in them all the time. And of course, there's so much good that comes from technology, but...

It is a legitimate problem that this question I think addresses very well. Well, because even as we're talking about how to deal with technology, mean, we're using technology to have this discussion. Someone who we don't know, who uses Instagram, which is a place I post a lot, is asking us a question. Like, right there, that's a very powerful tool. I guess I'm starting by emphasizing

the positives. Like there are a lot of positives and there are a lot of benefits to having devices, having technology, having even Instagram. You know, I'll be honest, I like Instagram. I recognize that it can be a big danger for people and it's a place you can get lost. Like there's so much great content on there. There's lots of terrible content on there, but you can get lost on there. And so I guess what I want to talk through today is like, how do we manage this?

not just for our children, because the question is geared towards children, older teens specifically, not just for them, but I would say even for ourselves. Because we do live in this world. definitely has to, because for us, that's where we always start, is with ourselves. How do we manage this? Well, recognizing that there is a lot of positive, but that there's also, of course, a risk, a danger of having the device itself, having the apps, having...

access to the technology, like how do we balance being in the digital world versus being in the real world? So it's a real problem for everybody who has technology. Which is at this point. Well, now it's from toddlers, toddlers to adults. Right. Everybody's facing this and there are screens everywhere. So it is an issue and it has to be addressed. But I think if we go back, I we can give some specific action steps, but really it's got to go back to a core.

Rachel Denning (03:46.912)
philosophy. And one of those elements for us is that technology is a tool, not a toy. Absolutely. Something we've always taught our kids. And I want to talk more about that. But really quick, I wanted to say, and I like this question because she is saying specifically, how do we manage this for older teens? Because I believe we weren't great at this because, again, we're the first generation to raise children with devices. And so we were learning as we went.

like most of us are. We as in our family or we as in this generation of parents? We as in our family, you and I, and also all of us, this generation of parents. Like you and I grew up without the internet. We grew up without computers or smartphones or all of that. it came into being as we came into adulthood. And so.

Raising our children in this environment where they don't know anything else. They've known smartphones almost their whole life How do we manage this and I think there is a clear distinction between younger children and older teens like for me at this point and this is gonna be what I teach my kids to do with their children their grand our grandchildren is No devices when you're young like there should little children toddlers They shouldn't have devices

They should not be entertained with devices. And a lot of this research comes from The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, Glow Kids, I forget who that's by, but you know, like there's people that have done a lot of research on it. And for me, it's pretty clear cut. they should not be using devices when they're young. As they get older. Because it robs them of their childhood. that's the biggest reason. It robs them of their childhood and of the development that happens in the real world.

when they don't have those sucking distractions. Like it's literally a time suck. And we may not, know, if we're not, if we don't dig into the research and understand like what's going on, we might think, well, what's the big deal? Like let them, let them play. Why not? Why not let them play the games and watch the videos and like, what's the big deal? Like, and then they watch them for a few years and I could, I don't see any problem here. What's going on? What we, what we don't realize is how much. There's always an exchange rate.

Rachel Denning (06:08.81)
Like whenever you're doing one thing, you're automatically not doing other things. Which is specifically what I to emphasize is like we're taking away fundamental development that needs to be happening in a child. And on the surface we think, well, it's all good. Like I don't notice anything different. There is absolutely a difference, 100%. And it's social skills. It's practices and brain development.

that comes just from interacting in the world with moving and walking and crawling and playing and climbing and jumping and touching and smelling and just exposure to more things. Yes, experiential learning is vastly limited. And people argue, well, yeah, but they're exposed to so much more on a screen. Yes. Not the same. Not the same Especially for young children. There's definitely a place where it's like, great. Get more exposure to more things through

books and podcasts and Instagram and YouTube and all of these things, but after you have a foundation of experiential real world learning, right? And it also should never be one or the other. needs to continually include both, right? So I think it's important to emphasize here that one of the biggest concerns is that it is...

Rachel Denning (07:32.576)
hurting mental health, mental, emotional health. you don't see it when the kids are doing it. It's all good, but it's rolling out when they're teens and young adults. Well, and that's the thing that the anxious generation talks about is that it's not just a correlation, it's a causation. Smartphones and particularly, at least for girls, social media apps are causing anxiety and depression. Not just contributing to it, causing it.

That's why there's been such a huge spike since he directly connects it to the release of apps like Instagram and Facebook and TikTok in like 2010. That's when the spike shot up for anxiety, depression, suicide among teens. And then for boys, it's of course connected usually to the video games and things like that. all of that research is very clear now. And so that's why for me, when they're

very young, no devices, as they start to get older, you know, our seven-year-old will use an iPad for her school, you know, but we limit it to mostly that and then it's... very little. Yeah, her school, she does quickly. our ten-year-old daughter, very little. Right, and then our 14-year-old will use it for school and then he'll use a device for listening to audiobooks, but that's about the extent of device usage. We will have a movie night, you know, once or twice a week.

But we try to limit it to that. When they, and the advice in the anxious generation is that they really should not have access to specifically social media until they're at least 16. And I would say even a little bit later. And I would go with that. Now I would say because again, we were learning as we went.

We didn't necessarily follow that from the beginning, especially because we were also traveling and it was a way for our kids to connect with the friends they met around the world, et cetera. But we always kept it under control. Yeah, it was. I feel like we didn't have that hard framework because the research wasn't out yet. And but we did a really good job, I think, of keeping it under control. I yes, I feel like because we were also experimenting, it was kind of this ebb and flow or sometimes we would.

Rachel Denning (09:51.232)
let it see how it went and then we'd be like wow this is kind of a little out of control here notice it's addictive yeah nature and then we would rein it in you know but coming back to what you're talking about always teaching the underlying principle that devices were tools not toys and that we needed to focus on creation more than consumption that's another one of our core philosophies and so we would you know

And as that as a, as having those as a basic philosophy helped us to rein it in because we would constantly be telling the kids like if they wanted to get on the phone, what are you getting on for? Like what's the purpose? So right there, you're teaching them before you get on your phone, you need to have a purpose. And this is something you and I live by. We don't just pick up our phones just cause like, we're bored. I guess I'll pick up my phone now. It's like, whenever I pick up this phone,

I've got to think, why am I picking it up and what am I going to do on it right now? Like I need to have a specific purpose. And most people need a timeline with that as well. Yeah. Like a time limit. am I going to be doing it? And so that's what we would do with our teens is we allowed them to begin having them and using them and practicing using them. What are you getting on for? What are you going to do? And how long are you going to be on there? That was the framework. And if you take that as a basis,

then that becomes a force in interacting with technology. Like, what am I doing? And why am I doing it? And how long am I going to be doing it? We're answering the question one. We haven't even read the question yet. Because I think we're establishing the core philosophy. The foundation and the framework, everything needs to be built on that. Because we can come up with all kinds of rules and strategies, whatever. But unless we have an understanding, unless we can get that understanding into our children's heads, like,

what's the point? They're just like, yeah, you said all this. But then it's just, it's always going to be, well, mom and dad just came up with these arbitrary rules or whatever. And you're like, no, no, no, there is a core principle behind this. And so just quick recap, it's a tool, not a toy. More creation than consumption. Which, you know, to be clear about that, to expand on that a little bit more because it's relevant right here is like creation is.

Rachel Denning (12:17.79)
you're actually creating things versus consuming as you're just watching. If you just get on Instagram and scroll, that's consuming. I get on Instagram most of the time to create. I am posting my own content. That's a very different thing. And I even taught my kids, like, great, if you want to be on Instagram, you should also be creating content, but not just like, here's my selfie. Exactly. Well, we talked about that too. Inside of the creation piece is like, has to be meaningful, purposeful, helpful. has to be edifying. If you're just...

Posting pictures of yourself? That's weird. And that's the beginning of the anxiety depression. That's a major contributing factor to it according to his research. I think it's important to other example though. Because we could say, him creating. But wait a minute. You're not adding value to other people's life. You're trying to get attention. Exactly. And that is very, very different.

You're not creating value. You're not adding something. You're not making the internet and social media better. You're trying to get attention. That is very, very different. Right. And so you're teaching this nuance here of like, well, are you creating or are you just trying to get attention and helping them to understand that there is a difference? Another example is great. People like to get on YouTube and watch videos. That's great, but only if it's for a purpose. if you're

The other thing we're teaching is if you're going to consume, it should be for an intention, a purpose. So if you want to get on and watch a video, great. That's so you can learn how to play a song on the piano. All of my children have taught themselves to, not all, lot of them have taught themselves to play the piano from watching YouTube videos. You're going to make a craft, you're going to crochet something or draw something. That is their reason for getting on YouTube and consuming YouTube content. It's with the intention of

creating. Okay, so that's the example for that. Let's actually get to the question now that we've given some of the answers. Okay, hi there. I've admired your family from afar. I'm wondering if you could give some insight into how you've managed cell phone usage with your teens. How have you allowed freedom but also hold boundaries? What have you done when a child is too connected and aware of their phone?

Rachel Denning (14:40.372)
We have been a very low tech family. We got our oldest smartphone when she got her license at 16. No apps, no internet, she will be 18 this month. She has minimal apps and no social media. At this point, she says she doesn't want them, but she is constantly picking up her phone. She doesn't engage in life as she used to.

in building relationships with her siblings or playing the piano, reading books, painting, etc. She's either doing schoolwork or on her phone texting and using Marco Polo and photos. How have you managed an older team? We don't want to be too overbearing and want to allow more freedom, but it's been so hard seeing her change and not engage in her life as she used to. So first of all, lots of good things there. They've done a lot of things really well.

That's awesome. Delaying the smartphone, limiting the apps, keeping the boundaries, teaching the principles. That's fantastic. Very awesome. And then I think the next thing is though, this is normal. This is the challenge with the smartphones is that they are so powerful. They are so addicting. They are so fascinating. There's a reason there's an actual problem here. It's not because they're boring. There is a lot.

you can do, there's a lot you can learn, there's like all kinds of things that you can do. Never ending. It could go on and on and on. You could literally spend the rest of your life and never come to an end of the possibilities on your smartphone. Well, and let's take that to the good side. There's actually enough good things available through a phone. could spend the rest of your life doing good things on a phone. absolutely.

And so then that's also where it becomes a challenge because you could say, well, I'm only doing good things on here. And that could be true. But we also have to dig into why, oftentimes we have to convince ourselves of this or dig deeper into ourselves so we understand it, why it's important for us to not be on the phone all the time, even if it is good things. Like, why do we still need to be engaged in the real world?

Rachel Denning (16:56.948)
Right. And that's, yeah, that's an important and difficult conversation. Yeah, absolutely. if you're like, wait a minute, I could do so many good things mentally, spiritually, emotionally, like every form of education, business, I could just do on my phone. So why should I not be on my phone eight to 10 hours a day? Yeah. And there are, there's plenty of research out there and lots of reasons.

that we've got to look away from the phones and do things off of them. You've got to be engaged in life, which is part of their question. And I love that they're observing that and just noticing it's like, well, she's less engaged in ways that she used to be. And I think those are important and healthy ways that as technology takes its part in our life, I think we all have to deliberately fight for and kind of box out. I picture a basketball player.

you boxing it out and you know, out arms and elbows like I'm keeping space here for real connection, face to face communication without a device. Right. And this is challenging because, well, first of all, you know, I'm saying that this is normal, like, okay, she hasn't had a device. Now she has a device. It's normal that she's going to be spending time.

figuring it out, learning about it, seeing what's possible. Well, and using what she likes. She's like, Marco Polo, this is awesome. And then we want to do that all the time. Which then, by default, means that any time you're doing one thing, you're automatically not doing something else. So yeah, by default, she's not doing some of these other things that she used A perfect example is more time on Marco Polo with a distant friend than time with a sibling. Right. Exactly. Which, again, has

pros and cons, you know what I mean? As our children grow up, they naturally are seeking out other relationships outside of the family. Like that's a normal biological process because otherwise they would never leave home. They would never seek out a mate. And so we want them to be doing those things because, and it looks different now because the world has changed. Like more people.

Rachel Denning (19:11.294)
I just saw a recent graphic. Did you see that? Where the numbers kept changing about how people met their spouse. And of course now more people meet their spouse online than any other way. Which is indicative of our society but I also think interesting in that, I mean, in a way it's expanding your borders, right? Which is good Yeah, which can be good thing. you live, like picture somebody living in a small community or...

But it doesn't matter if you're in a big community. Like if you're bound by geography and like it's the people within this five or 10 mile radius. Yeah. And they're like, that's where I get to pick my friends from. That's where I get to pick my teachers from. That's where I get to pick my future spouse from. It's like, well, what if, what if my people don't live here and where technology is changed out, especially for us, that's true for us. We have friends all over the planet.

And we've really connected with great people everywhere. it was like, well, in fact, we have friends, they came to stay with us for a of weeks and they're leaving this morning. We are the friends that are here saying for months and in every situation they connected with us online from somewhere in distant parts of the world where never would have met them in person. And now we're here building these amazing friendships for, for me and for Rachel with the parents and then with our kids and their kids. That only happened because of

Technology right so so learning to be social online is not a bad thing Right per se I mean It can be it has its limitations it does but as you just laid out it can be a very critical skill for learning and Expanding and meeting new people, you know across the globe that at some point you may meet up with in the future.

The emphasis here I'm trying to make is like, we can't necessarily say, stop doing that, or you should be spending more time here, especially as they're getting into this age, because they need to be expanding their borders. They need to be expanding their connections so that when they're ready, they can meet and know how to meet potential spouses or whatever. You know what saying? I think that's worth emphasizing right there, that if we only do online communication or predominantly

Rachel Denning (21:35.904)
We might actually be weak in actual communication. And I know many people in this generation, they learned how to text and they have a really hard time drafting an email or just having a conversation in person. finding that balance. So using the communication online and then making sure that we're also cultivating and developing those in-person skills as well. Just as one example of how to use technology and then how to purposefully set it aside.

and cultivate in-person skills. Yeah. So really, to then be able to answer this question, it's learning to recognize the things that are happening, but also viewing the potential pros and cons, and talking through it, and having those conversations with her. Because ultimately, we have to see that this is a long game, really.

Like this is a skill or this is a practice that she's going to be doing for the rest of her life. She's not going to like you have a talk with her and you discuss it or you put some boundaries and then like she's set for the rest of her life. You know, no, there's going to be times when she's 20 and 30 and 40 and still struggling with how do I manage technology in my life because like we're saying, as far as we know, it's not going away. This is something we're all doing.

This is something as parents we should be doing. So it's an ongoing process. And I think in some ways we have to view it that way of like we have these ongoing conversations of how are we using technology in our life. Not like what's the one solution that fits all that I put it in place and now we're done. Now we're good with managing devices. It's like no, she's going into an adulthood and.

She's going to have to learn how to manage this and negotiate this basically for the rest of her life. So it's how do we teach these ongoing principles that she can apply and these questions that she can ask herself to see, OK, let me check in. How am I doing? First of all, so answering the question, she needs to be clear about what she wants. And this is a principle we use. Like, what is it we want in life?

Rachel Denning (23:59.37)
We have to think about how do we want to be spending our time? What are our goals? What are our dreams? And that starts with having goals and dreams. Yeah, exactly. We've got to have a target. a lot of adults don't and a lot of youth don't. And so you're like, hey, what do you dream about? What are you focusing on? Nothing. Well, and that's So then why not spend all your time on your Yeah, exactly. If you don't have dreams and goals and things you're working for, then it almost.

Two people seem stupid to not be spending your time on your phone because what else are you going to be doing? Exactly. And that's really, I think, the ultimate challenge or problem is that by default, and this includes parents as well, of course we're going to be gravitating to our phones. We're going to be gravitating to devices because it fills the time. And if we don't have anything else to do, why not? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We live in a time where we're just constantly entertaining ourselves to death.

There's so much entertainment, unending stream of visual trash. And you're right, if we don't have a target, if we don't have an objective, if we're not working towards something meaningful, fulfilling, yeah. Why not spend Why not get on the phone and entertain myself? Right. It seems almost silly to people that you wouldn't be doing that. Unless you have a specific goal that says, want to have a great long-term relationship. I want to be able to have a family one day.

I want to a world-class education. I want to have a very successful business. You've got to have, and I guess I want to emphasize this. You've got to have targets that are so exciting. They're more exciting than your phone. You got to have targets that are more enticing than entertainment. Or at least that the, that the, pursuit of them and the vision of achieving them is more enticing. So, so you might, you know,

maybe being on your phone is going to be more entertaining if you're watching Netflix or scrolling on Instagram, but you're driven by a vision of having a great long-term relationship, which you know requires communication skills, that you're driven to get off the phone and practice real world communication skills so that you can have a great relationship. Exactly. So there has to be a bigger driving motivating force in her life, in our lives as parents.

Rachel Denning (26:20.092)
in order to see this perspective of, well, yeah, there's a reason I should be interacting with humans in the real world so that one day can have a great relationship as opposed to, well, I'm just going to send Marco Polo's or I'm just going to text. So at the core, is she living a great life story? Or does she have a vision of a great life story she wants wants to live.

And at the core of that is do you as a parent? the very first thing Rachel and I have to do is think, man, babe, are we living a great story? Am I pursuing big goals and dreams? have noble targets that I'm going after. Am I living life? And if I'm not, how in the world can I ever expect my kids to do that? If I tell them to do it and tell them they should do it, but I'm not doing it.

Lame the message dies because I suck as the messenger because I'm not living the message and so you and I have to be living a great life and Showing the example so when our kids are watching us our kids and ladies gentlemen you hopefully you get this like your kids see you they see you for what you are and they They see you and probably know you better than anybody else. They're just watching even if you think you're kind of pulling pulling something off you're putting a little charade I

I see parents like that all the time. hear it like they think they're fooling their kids. Like, we don't talk to them about that. like, you think they don't know your marriage is crap? You break. Like, we didn't tell them. They can see it. They can see that you're miserable or empty or doing nothing. And so they can see that. then they're going to they're they're more likely to do what you do than to do what you say. Right. And so we have to live that message. We have to be pursuing it.

And then by pursuing it, our kids will want to follow our example. And so then we talk about, what are you pursuing? What are you working on? What are you... Is this helping you get what you want out of life? That's a core question right there. Right. I think one of the most powerful aspects of actually pursuing it yourself, right, of actually walking the path, is that it gives you the knowledge, the understanding, the words.

Rachel Denning (28:44.116)
to use to help your children understand how to walk the path themselves. You know, like with something like this. If I don't know how to manage my own screen time and I don't know why to manage my own screen time and I don't have other alternatives to screen time, I don't have the words to convince or inspire my child to walk that path, right? And so it's by walking the path ourselves and asking ourselves, well,

How can I engage more? How can I do more of the things like playing the piano or reading books? How can I ask my kids to read more books when I'm not reading more books, right? We have to walk that path ourselves, and we have to be able to disconnect ourselves from our own use of technology. And I'm speaking from experience, because you and I, we do. We work online.

We have a location independent business, by default means we are online a lot. We're on devices a lot because that's where the business is, right? You and I don't have like a store where people come in. I mean, now we have this World School Family Resort, well, where people come in all the time. But our other business is all online. And that's where we're dealing with customers. You're on Zoom with them. You're texting with them. You're on Instagram. You know, I'm posting and I'm writing emails.

All of that's online. And so we have to be very intentional about disconnecting from that and still living a very full real world life and still having very meaningful real world communication and interactions with our children, with each other, so that we are modeling that for them. And so that we're not just, it's not just lip service. We're like, no, we have had to do it ourselves because

We know how easy it is to get lost in the online world. And so we have to have walked the path so that we now have the words and we can paint the picture for them of why it matters, why it's important, and then how to actually do it. And I think that's right there to me is the key. If we actually know how to do it ourselves, we can tell our children how to do it. If we don't know how to do it, we don't know how to tell our kids how to do it.

Rachel Denning (31:02.1)
And that goes with everything and anything. There's one more aspect to that that I think is so important that goes right along with what you're saying is that you also have to have the results to back it up. Yes, absolutely. So not only you have the feeling, the experience, the words to share, but you have the results that hopefully your kids want. they if they look at you and your life and in their eyes, it's

empty and boring. Meaningless and pointless. Yeah. Why would they follow your example? Why would they even consider what you're saying when they look at you? You're like, your life is so lame. again, this sounds so harsh, but let's we have to be honest because kids are honest. Yeah. If they're sitting there like you're some of the lamest people on your lives are so lame.

They're not going to listen to us. And it sounds so painful because none of us want our kids to think that we're lame. As their parents, we're just lame people, right? But that's the truth. There's a lot of kids. And what's interesting, I've been able to work with youth and young adults for decades. And they will tell me that. They're like, my parents are so boring. Their lives are so empty. They don't do anything. whether they're super unhealthy or...

They're unpleasant. They're miserable. And they keep telling me to do this stuff. You're like, well, yeah, no wonder. If you you just look at it just with that blunt honesty, like, why would my kid listen to me if I'm overweight, out of shape, unhappy, miserable, boring, empty? Like my life is bleh. And I'm like, son, you should do this. And stop spending so much time on your device because you should be in the real world.

why the real world sucks. would I? sucks. Well, we were talking with our friends last night because we have a few families here and one of them was leaving today. And so we were up late talking and it was interesting to hear both of them articulate this. But I also very distinctly remember this feeling in our own lives because they were saying, you know, the one group of friends, they're going home today and going back to their.

Rachel Denning (33:27.614)
normal life and the other ones that are here longer. But both of them were talking about how they have friends at home. But and they're like, they're nice. It was they're like, they're nice people, but they're not people that you think I would want to trade lives with you. And bringing together this whole group of people, it's what it's amazing because they're inspiring each other. They're doing, you know,

unique and different and amazing things. And they're interacting with the type of people where you're like, yeah, you have an inspiring, amazing life, right? And that's such a different experience. And I think that we need to think about that perspective, even for our own children in this context, is like, do we have the lives that our children would want to have? Would they gladly trade places with Yeah. Do they want to grow up and basically be us? Because they're like,

You've got a happy marriage. You've created a happy family that I like to be a part of. You are pursuing your dreams and goals. You've achieved things that are inspirational. You're so pleasant and enjoyable to be around. exactly. You're pleasant to be around. And I like being around you. If we're not creating those own, and I think I'm emphasizing this because as we continue to move into

digital worlds which are coming, you know, it's like Ready Player One, the whole virtual realities, all of that stuff is coming and it's going to be more and more and more tempting to want to live in those worlds. And the reason people do it is because it's a form of escapism. They're like, my life is boring and pointless and meaningless. Why would I not just spend more time in this exciting, fun digital world?

And while this is starting with texting and Marco pulling and whatever, and we think, well, that's an extreme. In some ways, that's where it can all lead. Well, there's a very real specific example with that. If I'm upset that my son is on or my daughter, either one of them is online texting their friends and talking to their friends all the time, and I'm trying to get them to stop, they're immediately going to look at me and be like, they're going to assess automatically my friendships.

Rachel Denning (35:50.814)
Yeah. Right. So if as a parent, I have no friends and I'm telling them like you spend too much time chatting your friends. They're like, dad, you don't, have no friends. Like, I don't want your life. So I'm to do the opposite of what you say because I actually want friends. Yeah. No, that's true. Right. It's, so it's very real. And, if they look at me like, gosh, you have, you have great friendships and you do cool things. Well, first of all, what they're saying is that you and I are best friends. So they're, they're going to see that Rachel and are best friends.

And all our kids have seen that and that's the caliber of marriage they want. So when they're thinking about dating, when they're thinking about marriage, like, yeah, I want that kind of relationship. So they're going to pursue the things that lead there. But if you and I were just like roommates, you know, taking care of things, you know, hanging out here and there every once in a while and living boring lives and really didn't have many friends, they're going to see that right away. Yeah.

Other side of this that I see sometimes is that the spouses have lots of friends that are outside the home and they spend tons of time. You know, the mom spends all this time with her girlfriends and dad's always out golfing or doing new things with his buddies. They spend more time with their separate friends than they do with each other. Kids are going to fall right along with the family. Right. And so, yeah, in that case, then the default

Well, yeah, of course I'm gonna spend more time texting my friends or Marco pulling them because that's what you do like no Why don't you spend more time with a family and they're like you hypocrite? You hardly spend enough time with our family. You're always out with your friends doing your things. I'm doing the same thing I'm following your example, right? Yeah, one hits home Yeah, so, you know essentially and and again, we don't know the specific person. We don't know the specific situation We love to give lots of possible

possibilities because there's always layers here with everything with every challenge you're dealing with every problem you're trying to solve as a parent or in your marriage there's always multiple layers and so we have to learn to look at the different layers and and decide how many layers are contributing to the problem and which ones apply to us you know so we have to look at these different aspects like what is missing what is not here what am i not teaching what am i not modeling what am i not

Rachel Denning (38:17.672)
leading out on that is that that one is not showing my child how to do it or inspiring them to do it or two is not giving me the words to influence the the information and the power to be able to talk through with them this new aspect of growing up this new part of you know becoming an adult because like i said that you have to view this is like

This is a long-term thing. And I'm saying this from experience as well because our oldest children now are 22, 20, 19, and 17. And I would say it's still an ongoing conversation. We're still talking about device usage. We're still talking about how to manage our own. Excuse me. I guess I want to emphasize that we have a 17-year-old and 19-year-old.

And at home now at home and there they have they both have their own phones that they paid for. We're not we're not paying for their phones and they both earned over time our trust. And so they you know we don't have any we don't have any like passcodes or restrictions on their device uses because they've earned that.

We teach them the principles. Where we do have those in place for like our 14 year old. Yep, and below. Definitely. Yeah, 14 and below. So because even at 14, they just don't have the cognitive capacity yet to understand abstract ideas and to see the big picture of connecting their daily actions with their long term outcomes. Nor do they have the daily discipline to be able to manage the use.

of device, Without very, if it's available to them in an unlimited way, it's just like putting unlimited cookies on the counter and then expecting them to not eat them. Like that's just the stupidest strategy ever. If you don't want them to eat the cookies, you don't put the cookies out there or you put out however many you want them to eat and you let them eat that one cookie, you know? That's how it happens. And so for the younger

Rachel Denning (40:30.656)
kids definitely. example because nobody should have cookies out in their house ever. There's healthy versions of cookies. I if you make teach your kids to make a very healthy version I'd go with it. You know my point. But if you, but as they get older you know since we're talking about older teens, back to a couple more strategies we can use here. Yeah one of them might be and that depends on the maturity level of your child. I could because we have raised our children this way I could never imagine

doing this for my 18-year-old, but that's because we've taken a different approach. I do know some 18-year-olds are just not mature enough to be able to handle themselves. They've never been able to practice that skill, and so they don't have that self-discipline or those decision-making capabilities. And so you might want to be putting screen time restrictions on them and things like that. Age has so little to do with it. It can't. It's about maturity, responsibility, discipline.

them I guess here's the most effective way to do it because well let me let me rant here for a second I feel so strongly about this we do not want our children to be obedient if you if you're seeking for your kid to be obedient then at first you think well that sounds good that sounds great all my kids to be obedient if they're obedient then they're safe and they're good they're listening do it I rules like no they're just conforming to your thinking

And it's not theirs. They haven't adopted it. They haven't embraced it. Those aren't their standards or rules. Practice their decision making muscles. Right. So all they're doing, if I have obedient kids, all they're doing is they're doing what I want. And as soon as I'm not there, they do what they want. Right. I'm like, no, that's that's a flawed philosophy. And everybody seems to be on that train. want be an kid to your kids, you'll be obedient, obedient, obedient. I'm like, no, even in church, like teach your kids to obey God. You're like, well, well, well, well.

I don't want obedient children. I want self-directed children. I want children who know how to think, who know how to make decisions, and that are capable of following through on those decisions. I want children who want, yes, exactly, totally self-reliant, independent, they want good outcomes, and they do what it takes to get them. That's what I want.

Rachel Denning (42:51.604)
Now you help your kids get to that point because they're not automatically going to get there because you have one conversation with them one day. You help them get there. But then when they're there they're super self-directed. So I don't have to worry about obedience anymore. I don't have to tell them to do something and they do it. They're they're chasing their own greatness. They they understand everything because we have taught them. So they're like yeah why why would I spend all that time staring at my screen or ruin my life. This is how our older teens think now. Like why would I do that.

what a waste of life. And so our 17 year old, she's diving deep into Peterson Academy and absolutely loves it. Like she can't get enough of all the great high caliber teaching going on and she's devouring books. She joined two different choirs. She's learning languages. I mean she is chasing all these goals and dreams. She's chasing down business pursuits, investing pursuits, ways to travel the world.

She has a mission and a purpose and so she uses her phone accordingly. Has very little time on social media or you know doing other things because she has all of these targets she's chasing. Same with our 19 year old son. He's remodeling a defender. He's building things, working on things, helping us with this. Again preparing for his life and career and his future marriage and serving and teaching and learning is constantly developing himself.

And he has his device and used it accordingly, which is very little. And they are both chasing a well-rounded pursuit of personal excellence. And so it's not an issue. It is an absolute non-issue like wasting time on their devices because their lives are so full of good things. And we, you and I, we hardly have to say or do anything at this point because we've taught them over time.

how to make that a reality, and they're pursuing it. Right. But if you are starting with an older child who is lacking that maturity, because it comes through practice. It comes through having the opportunity to, again, develop some of these decision-making skills and being able to have a vision and goals that they're working on and a bigger picture of what they're trying to do, using some of the strategies we used for them when they were younger can be very helpful.

Rachel Denning (45:14.72)
if they don't already have that, those capabilities. And so one of the things that we do, I already mentioned and hinted at was using the screen time passcodes, which essentially means, you know, they may have access to the main device passcode, but many of the apps will be restricted to them. And in order for them to use them, say YouTube or Pinterest or Instagram or whatever,

They have to come to me and I have to put in the passcode for them and then I give them either, usually it's 15 minutes or an hour of time, but that's this natural accountability process of like, okay, you, and I'll sometimes word it this way, like I gave you the chance to practice, you've been spending hours and hours and hours on this thing.

We're going to restrict it now. When you want to use it, you come to me and let me know and I'll give you access. But then it automatically shuts off because you haven't learned how to shut it off. And the reaction might be, are you kidding me? I'm 16 years old. I'm 17. I'm 18 years old and you're doing this? To which you would just call me with a smile, say, yes, you're right. You are 18. Act like it. Exactly right. And you be able When you begin acting with maturity and managing your life well, great.

So prove to me that you're mature enough to use this power tool. Right. And another strategy we would use and for a time, know, when our older teens were younger, sometimes I would do this every week on Sunday because on my iPhone, every week I get a screen time report. You have to it on. You have to turn on the screen time. So on every device, I would turn on screen time and then it would record where you're spending all of your activity. And then so every Sunday it sends.

you know, send me something and say, you spent an average of one and a half hours per day or an average of five hours per day using your phone, and here's where you spent all of your time. You were on Instagram for, you know, whatever, how many hours. You were on messages for this many hours. You were on this for that many hours. And so, and sometimes I'll still do this when I get my report. I'll just take a screenshot and I share it in our family chat just because.

Rachel Denning (47:32.008)
of kind of like a check-in where people are like, yeah, how much time have I been spending on my device? It's just creating this awareness of us helping to pay attention to where we're spending our time. And some of the apps, even Instagram, they even have that built into their app. can put it on there where you're like, I don't want to be on Instagram these hours. And then it will remind you, say, hey, you're supposed to be getting off Instagram because you've been on too long.

Which is great that that's even built into that. I would say that's one of the most important things we can do to help our kids is help them come up with time and space restrictions. Yeah. So sit down, have a conversation, say, hey, you know, this is a power tool. The phone's awesome. You can do so many cool things. But it can also be very dangerous. So how would you like to keep this in a proper place in your life so it doesn't take over your life? Exactly. And they're like, yeah. Yeah, I don't want to spend.

I don't want to spend tons of time on Instagram because I got on the other day just look something up and then like two hours later I still on there or YouTube or whatever. Say great how much time would you like to spend? And they're like man I think if I spent 40 minutes on there I think that would be enough to really you know kind of connect with people and I think it's great that's fantastic. And what times would you not want to do it? And help them set up a thing like I don't know maybe it's nine or ten o'clock at night phone's done period no exceptions it's off so it doesn't go way in the night and disrupt their sleep.

Or there's spaces like, hey, the family living room or the kitchen table or your bedrooms. Is a no phone zone. Yeah, they're no phone zones, period. And have them create spaces and times that are just, hey, no, it's hard line here. don't violate that because that's where you get into real trouble. Yeah. 3 AM and you're still scrolling. It's insane. Exactly. And that's one of the things that, especially talking about the modeling as parents.

we can sit down and have this conversation together and be like, hey, you know what? I've been spending too much time on Instagram or on my device. Here's my screen time report from last week. So I'm setting a schedule for myself. I'm not going to get on my phone before 9 AM. I'm not going to be on my phone after 10 PM. Whatever. You write it all down. I'm not going to spend more than an hour on Instagram.

Rachel Denning (49:51.582)
And then you set up these things on the phone so it has a reminder like, I've been on, you know, through screen time you can either completely block it or you can have it set a reminder like once you've been on for an hour then it says, hey, your time is up for the day. And it's kind of an optional thing, right? But it's at least there is a reminder saying, your time's up. I committed to an hour, my time's up, and then it helps you to be able to.

Be accountable to yourself to get off. And so if you do that as a family and say, you and your spouse and then your older children, say, OK, I'm going to write it down. Now, the key here, I think, is letting them have some of that free will and ownership. Because maybe they'll pick a time where you're like, that's a little much. But let them fill it out themselves. If they pick two or three hours on Instagram, OK.

But then check in and be like, how is it being on Instagram that long? How are you feeling? The more they get to choose, the more they come up with the ideas, the way more likely more ownership they have, and the more. Well, they want to. If I come and say, you're limited to this, they'll fight it. Exactly. I say, how much you want to limit it? And they say the same number, then they'll stick to it. Exactly. like, I'm committed. I want this. Where if you tell them, they'll fight you. They'll go over on purpose just because you came up with the number. Exactly.

I want to emphasize this accountability thing because I think it's extremely rare. I don't know actually I can't think of a single family I know that has this total open transparency that we operate with our family and when when Rachel I try to teach it it's often the adults who are resistant to the open spouses yeah yeah they're like what no no no like no I'm not doing that was like I have

You know, I have my right to privacy. You're like, what are you hiding? No, that's my always question. Like, wait, what are you hiding? So we decided very early on in our marriage, like total transparency. I have, I literally have zero. have nothing to hide. And so Rachel has access to all my passwords, all my phone, every everything in my life. There's not a single thing in my life that she doesn't have access to, which the only problem with that is it's really hard to surprise her with like gifts.

Rachel Denning (52:12.48)
What is this money you spent on like blasted? I literally you guys I've had the funnest time like one time I reached out to my mom and I'm like hey mom can you secretly buy this thing and I'll pay you back later like Rachel has access to all my cars and everything like I gotta I gotta get real strategic about buying things so I've told transparency in the same way with her like there's nothing that she keeps for me and there shouldn't be like when you and I have adults like they really get uncomfortable this is like why

And my question is like, what are you trying to hide? Seriously, like straight up, what are you trying to hide? What are you afraid of if your spouse sees everything? And there's something there. There's some weird dynamics if you don't have transparency. So then we have that open transference between us and with the kids. So then the kids are never going to come and they do say this still, like, don't you trust me? And you're like, I don't trust anybody, including myself.

But if you're like, have privacy, Rachel has privacy, everyone has privacy, I'm like, kid, I want to see exactly what you've been doing. Then they feel like, what the Why did you single me out? Yeah, why don't you trust me? And instead, we teach the whole principle of like, well, look, I wouldn't trust myself with all the evil and the garbage and the crap out there. I'm a human being as much as anybody else.

And if you put all this stuff in front of me and I'm tired and not thinking clearly and I'm alone, it's private, like you're setting yourself up for failure. So with total transparency in the whole family, none of the kids are going to be like, leave me alone. I got to do whatever I want. You don't have to be watching over my shoulders. Like, no, everybody sees what everybody's doing and there's nothing to hide and no temptation to hide it. Yeah. And you're right. I think that that's...

something that we've probably just taken for granted that's a part of our family culture, but it is unique in that there is no, there's no hiding of anything. Like all of my kids know the password to my phone and they know the password to your phone and we know, I don't remember the passwords to their phone, but they tell me anytime I ask, right? It's not, there's nothing like, no mom, it's my phone, you can't have my password. It's just like, hey, what's your password? it's this, choo choo choo.

Rachel Denning (54:33.226)
They're not afraid of me getting on there and I'm not afraid of them getting, know, except for sometimes maybe you take an embarrassing picture of me or something. You know, I just delete those, but you know, there's nothing to hide. I literally don't have anything to hide from you or them. Well, the one thing we keep away from them is when Rachel and I are Sometimes we have some sexting texts, you know, I'm just like, don't read my text with Ted, guys. Like what? You know, just be careful. Watch it.

You read that, you're gonna see something you don't wanna see. it's nothing to hide, it's just like, not something they want to read. It's just gonna be awkward. It's awkward enough when we're kissing in front of them. But that is a part of the modeling and the family culture of kind of like, yeah, I'm gonna show you exactly where I spent my screen time and I'm gonna be accountable for that, right? And if you're like, mom,

And there have been times, legit, there's been times when I've spent eight hours per day on Instagram. And someone could say, what the heck? And they do. And I said, yeah, right now, Instagram is my job. I spend an eight hour day, a 40 hour work week on Instagram because I was specifically building an Instagram strategy. And so she backs it up and she explains to them, here's why I all the hours and here is the reason, here's the creation, here's the purpose.

here it all is, I can back it all up. Exactly. So if something shows up that's like, hey, that's off, you can back it up. Right. And if I can't, then I'm like, yep, you're right. I failed. I'm sorry. I'm going to do better because that sucks. In my imagination right now, I can hear some of you listeners like, my kids don't need to have transparency with me and my stuff. They don't need to know what I'm doing. And again, I'm like, wait a What are you hiding? As a parent, what are you trying to hide from your kids?

Are you trying to put on a show? Do you have a mask, a facade? Are you trying to pretend something? Are you secretly doing all this crap that you don't want them to see because you're telling them to be good kids and live good lives, but you're not? I don't know. I can't think of any reason to not have transparency with our children. Well, think especially because, at least for us, the approach we're taking is like...

Rachel Denning (56:53.318)
we are modeling, our job is to model and mentor for our children how to do life. Every single aspect of life. So that includes dealing with the traumas and the challenges and the difficulties and the obstacles and the money and the sex and like that's our job. We're here to mentor, to first learn it ourselves and then to mentor our children through it so they don't have to figure it out on their own. That's my role. So if I can't

share and again I don't want people to take this the wrong way it's not like we share every single thing with our children there's definitely things that are private like we keep our sex life private it's in the bedroom it's it's private right we're very I would say our family in general is very modest and we're very respectful and we we don't use foul language like you know I'm saying we're not sharing everything with them but

But what we're trying to say is that... But we also have nothing to hide. We don't have anything to hide, right? There's things that need to be appropriately kept apart from, say, children, right? Sex being one of them. Even as much as we've talked about sex on this podcast and other places, our older kids will go and they'll listen to those podcasts. Yeah. And go through it all. So like our married daughter and her husband, they've been through all of our sex podcasts. And so...

There's nothing to hide. hiding the... But that's different than... And of course, this is a very weird extreme example. That's different than having them in the bedroom or having them catch you or whatever. That's something that is still kept private. There's also parts of communication or things that we share that we keep private because it's between you and I, right? I will cry to you and I won't go cry to my children because you're the rock, you're the lighthouse, you're meant to carry that burden.

I'm not gonna go cry to my 10 year old like I would cry to you because not that I'm hiding things from her, but she doesn't have the emotional, mental, physical maturity to handle that burden like you have to handle that burden. But we also don't hide the fact that you cried to me. Sometimes they'll walk in and like, what's going on? It's like, mom's upset. And I try to give the simplest answer I can that makes sense to them, but I'm not, I don't tell them nothing's wrong, everything's fine. I'm like,

Rachel Denning (59:20.96)
Or don't let them see me crying. I don't want them to know that I cry. Yeah. yeah, you do get upset and cry. But it's not their responsibility to carry the burden. So I do want to clarify that. fun to see our kids come in. and sometimes, it's, Dad, why are you making mom cry? Well, I'm usually sitting there smiling or kind of giggling and mom's crying about something. And they've seen that regularly. Not that this happens all the time. I don't want it to seem like.

Rachel's always crying and I'm always laughing. But when she has this need to cry or just whatever, you're upset about things.

they've seen it enough, they just pop in and they're like, dad's sitting there listening to mom. And then they go on their thing. But it's another form of modeling of how this works. Yeah. Right. I sit and listen. something to hide, not something to be ashamed of, but like, this is how marriage works. This is how life works. This is how we get through problems. This is how we deal with challenges. Yeah. OK. So anyways, we've talked about tools, not toys. We've talked about create.

not just consume, but you know, an appropriate amount of consumption is great, but it needs to have limits. We've talked about and purpose. Is it just mindless consumption? Connected to bigger goals, essentially. Like if you want to learn the piano, great. Use the device to watch the videos to help you learn the piano or whatever other skill. I would teach this too, and we have taught this. And so I want to bring this up. Like make sure if your kids are on social, like who are they following and why?

Yeah, teach them there needs to be a purpose to it. Yeah, like you can't just follow like, yeah, so that's pretty fun. Like, was that a kind of person you want to be like? Would you trade places with that person? Are they inspiring you? They teach you? Are they helping you want to be better? Or they're just weird and they're teaching stupid ideas and they're like, no, these these are great ideas. OK, can they back it up? Because results don't lie. Can that person you're following or that friend you're choosing to be friends with, can they back it up? Do they have real results that you want to trade?

Rachel Denning (01:01:29.992)
lives with them when you want to have that. help your kids realize that because then they'd be like, yeah, been poloing with this person. like, yeah, they're kind of weird or they're strange or they're doing these odd things. no. And a lot of teens and young adults struggle with that because they so desperately want friends. They want to be accepted. They want to be liked. They'll kind of quote, try to be friends with whoever. You're like, no, man, have standards. Say no.

end friendships immediately if it goes sour or toxic and just avoid avoid toxic people like the plague that they are like just steer clear of that crap completely do not follow people online that you wouldn't want to trade places with if they don't have the results that you want and they haven't gotten those results in in good healthy ways don't follow them and this is true for adults too like are you on there following somebody like

Dude, this guy's a business genius, amazing. I'm following him. I'm gonna do everything he says. Well, yeah, look at his life. How many times has been married? And divorces, and his kids just absolutely hate him, and his health is horrible. You sure you wanna follow his advice? I'd think twice about that if I were you. Yeah. I'm kind of laughing because this also doesn't mean to put yourself in some sort of little echo chamber where you always only surround yourself by.

people just like you because of course because of the recent election and everything that's been going on in the states i don't know why i guess maybe because i i do know why cuz i know how the algorithm works but on facebook i read these posts of these crazy upset people who are like i can't believe it our country's dying it's we're we're in the worst place ever and then they say these things of like

That's it. I'm cutting it off. I'm not talking to any people that voted for Trump and I'm not going to be friends with anyone like that anymore. I am done. And I'm like, do you realize how dangerous that line of thinking is? Like that you're going to cut yourself off from anyone who doesn't think like you? that's crazy. That's crazy. So that's my little tangent on that because that's not what we're saying. There are people who are toxic, but

Rachel Denning (01:03:46.196)
There are people who have completely opposing viewpoints than you who are not toxic. They're wonderful people and you need to engage and associate yourself with And there are people who have the exact same ideas of you that are very toxic. Exactly. And you should avoid them like the trouble they So just to clarify on that part a little bit. So yeah we're not saying isolate yourself into you know only the things that you believe. Yeah. The opposite actually expose yourself to a different ideas.

philosophies and all kinds of things. Just stay away from... people who are like inspiring and uplifting, not draining and depressing. Yeah. Okay, so other points that we've covered. Making a plan, like setting down beforehand and saying, okay, how much time am I gonna be on my device and how much time am I gonna be on these apps and when am I gonna be done for the day? So it's almost like you're pre-deciding how to spend your time rather than just...

responding to your whims. Your whims. And you're bored. I'm bored. I need some downtime or I just don't feel like it. And that's where we end up wasting so much time in life on a screen. As adults and teens. The one other thing that we didn't mention that I think is super important and that is notifications. I am shocked constantly by people and how many notifications they get on their phone. Like you and I as a rule for the most part.

Because every time you download an app, it always, always asks you to allow the notifications. And I think a lot of people, by default, just allow them. We're always, no, don't allow. And we've taught our children, turn off your notifications. Only turn on the ones you actually really want that actually bring benefit to you. Because otherwise, that is one of the ways that we're just ending up losing so much time. You had a coaching client even. And I'm sure this happens to a lot of people where

He's trying to be more productive. He's trying to earn more money. He's trying to be more focused with his work. And you're like, well, what happened? I got on YouTube for an hour. And you're like, how did that happen? Well, they sent me it you're on YouTube in the middle of the work day? And they notified there was a new video. I'm like, And you're like, you have your YouTube notifications on? Like, what is this? Yeah, you just don't do that. You turn off the notifications. Because the point is, you don't want to get on an app because the app

Rachel Denning (01:06:11.89)
is tempting you to get on it. You want to get on the app when you decide to get on it for a specific purpose. turning on notifications, you're literally raising your hand and saying, yes, please interrupt interrupt me. Exactly. Exactly. And that's not how we operate. You decide when you're going to be getting on an app and what you're going to be doing on it. And you turn off all the other notifications because.

They trust me your life will not end. It will actually be better. it's so powerful to have tons of time and teach your kids how to do this tons of time when you're when you're on focus mode in your device. Yeah. Or not disturb or airplane mode. And I think you know before you go into bed turn on airplane mode and keep it off until you've gone through a powerful and empowering morning routine. think that's just right. There's just one simple practice that I love. I turn that baby off at night and don't turn on until I've done my morning routine.

I cannot get distracted by my phone because it's on airplane mode. And so if I use it, which I do, use it to read or to listen to inspiring or spiritual things. There's no distractions. No distractions. So I'm like, I can listen to the spiritual thing without being distracted. If I kick that sucker on and I'm trying to listen to something, you, it's like ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. And so I have I have my messages on because I get messages from my wife and children and from my clients.

And then I have WhatsApp on, but I get maybe three messages a Check out notifications. Yeah, So I have those notifications, but that's it. I don't have notifications for anything else. And I have my own reminders that go off that are reminding me of my goals and the things I'm working on. Because you know what I want to be interrupted with and distracted by? Reminders of where I'm going and who I'm.

becoming and how I'm live life. know what notifications for? My own notifications. Hey Greg, remember this. Hey Greg, you're doing this. Hey Greg, this is where you're going. I don't want somebody else's agenda saying there's a new cat filter. Come check it out. No man, that's not where I'm going. That's not what I'm doing. So live the message, share the message, do it super effectively. We all have to work on being more persuasive and influential.

Rachel Denning (01:08:36.096)
Which starts by, like you said, living the message. And then tactfully introducing these ideas. So many parents are so tactless, like no diplomacy. They hear something, they think something, they all got fired up and they're like, OK, kids, you're doing it this way and this is how it is and any crap from any of you and I'm kicking you out of the house. I that went over like a lead balloon. Like, come on, we got to be more tactful about it. And introduce it in a way the kids are like, yeah.

totally get that. That's cool. I'm on board. That's what you want. The end of a conversation. You want your kids to be like, wow, that makes sense. I'm in. And that's how you win as a parent, especially with the devices that are in our lives. They're here to stay and they are alluring and addictive. And so we're in a very real way. This is how, at least how I like to see it. I'm competing with a very addictive device.

And so I have to be better than the device. If I want my kids attention and I want to keep their attention more than a device, I love, love, crazy love this idea. If I, as a father, want to have my kids attention, more of their attention than their phone gets, I have to be awesome. And I will win that war. That's how committed I am to being a world-class father.

I will win that war, which means I'm going to have better results. I'm going to be more. Pleasant. More excitable. Yeah. More exciting, more inspiring, more inspirational. Like whatever, whatever it takes, I'm going to be more than that stupid device. And so far I'm winning massively. My kids want to spend time with me and they want to do what I do and they want the results that I have. And I'm winning. It's like.

And my only kids especially like why would I spend time on a stupid screen when I could be out doing something seriously epic with my dad. And that's right where I want to be with that. Okay. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. We have tons of tools and resources on courses.extraordinaryfamilylife.com Rachel and I have recently released it's still

Rachel Denning (01:11:01.46)
hard to get a hold of on purpose but we're redoing our entire parenting course. The new and improved marriage course is coming out. We've got some awesome announcements coming out about a marriage power couple experience that's coming out. We are cranking out content you guys because our desire is to share with you what works for us.

How we've created our extraordinary marriage and our extraordinary family life and we want you to have those same tools and strategies We want to make this available to you guys So we're working hard to give you the tools that you need to create your own unique Extraordinary family life. So love you guys. Thanks for listening reach upward