#283 When and Why to Consider Divorce

Rachel Denning (00:01.87)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We're your host, Greg and Rachel Denning. And today we have one of the questions of all questions. is a poignant question. Yeah. Powerful, difficult, disturbing, sad. This is this is a challenging one and and I'm excited to talk through it and also.

apprehensive about what it might mean. I guess it's a hard reality that sometimes we come across things in life we don't want to face and we have to make decisions that we don't want to make and do things we wouldn't necessarily want to do. In fact, we all wish it would be otherwise in situations like this. Well, and I think that that's maybe a good place to even start here because at least

From our perspective, we have found that being willing to do that, to face the hard scenarios, to face the worst case situations, even mentally, even if it never actually happens, it never comes to fruition, being able to face it and walk through it mentally is a very valuable process. And so that is kind of the approach that at least I'm suggesting today is that you mentally go through

the worst case scenario so that it gives you better insight into the decision you actually make. Whether you decide to actually take this course of action or not, you're better prepared to handle whatever choice you make because you're like, okay, I've walked through the other scenario. That's a phenomenal strategy for life and business.

mentally let's go into our mind palace and lay out pathways and kind of walk down the ways and be like, what are these options? Okay, I mentally have done that. And then if needed, you can even verbally do it and say, hey, let's talk about this. And then the last scenario is like, okay, we have to do it. And I do, I want to emphasize that because I think part of the reason people remain stuck

Rachel Denning (02:21.038)
is because they're not willing to go through that process mentally. For so many people, something is so terrifying that they don't even want to mentally think about it. I I even know people who will refuse to watch a movie that disturbs them because they don't mentally want to go somewhere where they're afraid to go. And I have found that the best course of action, I think is a- That's the best place to be exposed to- totally is. Do something challenging or difficult is in a movie. Right. It's not your own life.

I mean, have lit, as a mother, okay, I think as a mother, one of your worst fears ever is that a child could die, or your spouse could die. Like, one of those things happening is one of your, at least for me, is one of my greatest fears. And I know it used to be absolutely terrifying to me, like sickening to me to even think about it. And I know throughout the course of our life, our married life, I've watched movies that literally made me cry because I thought,

that could be our family, that could happen to us. But that's a good thing. I that's a good thing. That's what I'd want to say. That is actually a good thing because if you mentally go through that process, it actually strengthens you. I am now less afraid of those things because I've been willing to mentally walk through that process and even to the point of tears and crying and like really feeling the grief. And for me now, I do it as a practice of like

feeling it as much as I can, which people are like, why would you do that? That sounds miserable. I do it because...

Rachel Denning (03:56.439)
This is a theory I have I don't know if it's an accurate theory I like to kind of believe it's an accurate theory I feel like if I'm willing to do that mentally and emotionally Then maybe I don't have to actually do it in reality That's one reason I do it But the other psychological benefit is I feel like it actually makes me stronger at the very least Mentally walking through that I'm like okay. Yeah, that would be absolutely horrible. It would absolutely suck

but I would survive. I would be able to move on. I would be able to deal with it, right? So I find it a valuable process to do that instead of avoiding it because I think the avoiding it actually keeps you underdeveloped. 100 % and weaker and less prepared. Exactly, right. And this, man, that practice applies across so many areas, including...

any kind of preparation for a natural disaster or an attack or a robbery or you never want to think through the horrible things of like what if somebody broke into our house at night like no walk through that think through it and say what would you do exactly as a woman also like I'm gonna admit this I'm still afraid of the dark right like if you're not around if you're

I've noticed I'm more afraid of the dark if you're not around, if you're like out of the house. I am afraid of the dark. And if I walk around, I feel these fears of like, what if someone breaks in and attacks me and rapes me or whatever. But when I'm willing to mentally walk through that and then think about, what would I actually do in that case, especially as I learn more of the skills like that we're gonna be talking about in the November training here in Portugal, like self-defense skills, then that fear dissipates because...

I'm more prepared to be able to handle that eventuality. I think it's really, Our fear stems from a lack of preparedness. When you are prepared, then the fear dissipates. It doesn't mean it goes away for 100 % per se, but it definitely is lessened because you're more prepared. But I also think that this approach works great for even something like dealing with religion. If people mentally walk through

Rachel Denning (06:13.25)
the worst case scenario, like what if I lost my faith? What if I didn't believe in God? What if I, or actually asking those questions, do I believe in God? What if I left my church? What if I did all these things? Mentally walking through that actually gives you more strength and more faith and more power than avoiding it because, I'm afraid to go there. Being afraid to go someplace is actually a sign that that's kind of where you need to go, at least mentally.

because avoiding it just keeps you weak and underdeveloped. Right, and walking that full, we've talked about this so much, the labyrinth, or going the full circle, it makes you so much more developed and it will actually strengthen your faith and strengthen your marriage and strengthen your mindset, your spirituality, all of it. You become more whole. Yeah. If you're willing to go all the way. Now, some people go, they just dabble a little bit and then they're like, they fall apart and they fall to pieces.

We've quoted Francis Bacon many times. He's like, if you start studying philosophy and you go halfway, you lose your faith. If you keep studying and come all the way back around, your faith comes back and it's much stronger. Right. Like that's the idea. It's like, you've got to go the full circle. Well, and that is the danger, because people don't go the full circle, either mentally or in reality. And so, yeah, they end up doing something like, I'm going to leave my religion, or I'm going to leave my spouse. Thinking.

That's gonna solve my problems. Like that's gonna make my life better. And they haven't gone the full circle of like, okay, well what happens after that? Now you've left. Now you've thrown off all those standards that you thought were connected to your religion. Now you are sleeping around, whatever. Those things you thought were binding you. limits to you and binding you and limiting your freedom. Now what? Are you actually happier? Like what happens after that, right? And that's where you have to go. You have to walk full circle and

back to and that's the irony we often come back to like well actually no this is a good thing right you know having religion is a good thing you know having standards is a good this is interesting and very relevant today's topic is like we you have to cultivate and develop some mental stamina some mental agility mental capacity to be able to walk out into the future and see and foresee

Rachel Denning (08:35.854)
possible consequences and outcomes. That's a skill that has to be developed. think reading helps a ton because you read all the great classics. You read through the great classics and like that's what it is. They've walked through those scenarios. Exactly, you read the whole story and you're like, there's a scenario. I didn't have to imagine this. There it is. The author's already imagined it for me. So read through great classics does that. And I think that's why they're classics is because it lays out all these possible scenarios for your choices. So just reading would.

would make it so much easier. don't have to create the scenario in your head. You just read about it in fiction or real life. Traveling does that because you go out and you're exposed to so many different things. Obviously studying history and then meeting lots of people and just talking to people and not superficial crap like the weather. Like, no, tell me about your life. And people will tell you this worked, this didn't. And you're like, okay.

This is giving me tons of... Well, they may not tell you so specifically, but they tell you in other ways by just telling their story. And you're like, that didn't work so well. Right, exactly. I guess for me, in my experiences, the way I love coaching and I love helping people and I love learning with people and connecting, they tell me. And they put it all together. And then I even like, so you made this choice, got this outcome. Yeah. Usually in tears, like, yes, I did it. It was horrible.

very relevant and very important for today's topic. You have to mentally walk out and play this out in different scenarios to see how it works. But let's dive into the question. Yeah. And so that's what we are going to help.

this person walk through in this question today, simply not that we're suggesting this is the course of action you should take, but you need to consider taking this course of action so you can be more grounded in the decision you make. Yep. One way or the other. Well said. OK. OK.

Rachel Denning (10:31.278)
Hi Rachel and Greg, I just love you guys. Thank you so much for all you do. I have a question I'm hoping you'll address on the podcast. I have been on a very deep and powerful personal development journey for the past 10 years. I have overcome so much, worked through so many things, and continue to grow and develop daily. I listen to your podcast nearly every day.

Take action on things, watch the videos, and try to improve myself and life at least 1 % a day. Yes, yes, yes. Kudos to you. Honor, praise, way to go. Yes. My biggest issue is how much this personal development obsession is affecting my marriage. At first, the gap was small. But as the years have gone on, I find myself drifting further and further apart from my husband. The mental

emotional and spiritual gap between us is so vast now that I honestly can't even hold a conversation with him. I feel multiple levels ahead of him in most aspects of life and have come to the end of my rope. He's just not progressing in his life and as a partner I feel resentment, frustration and almost shame towards him. We've been to counseling, I've read all the marriage books you have suggested.

I've tried to get him to read them too. I've written him letters. I've made him lists. I have had multiple conversations with him about this and still very little effort or follow through. There's just no desire to change. I think I've been going through years of grief in my marriage knowing that I will probably never have an available, connected, or proactive partner to do life with. He's a good guy, a decent father, and a good provider for our family.

But is this all I should expect for the next 30 years? Am I setting the bar too high for an extraordinary marriage? I do my best to show up for my kids as a very involved and engaged mother, and I'm constantly trying to help my kids grow as well, but I get little to no support with this either. Should I hold to the high bar of living an amazing family life, or should I just be grateful for what I have?

Rachel Denning (12:38.178)
It seems that every time I push for more it ends up in weeks of contention and sets us back. I've thought about separation many times but I just can't imagine being a single mother or doing that to my kids especially since he really hasn't done anything wrong. It's just a constant level of disengagement dissatisfaction and disappointment. Please help. Wow. Now.

there's more. Do you want me to read the rest now? Let's do a little intermission here before we continue. I just want to share some thoughts. I think we should have an ideal and I think in the ideal that every man and every woman would ideally know what it's like to live with someone who is striving to be their best, who's leveling up and going after it.

It's amazing and it should be the norm. It's not and we're not gonna get anywhere close to that in reality but that's genuinely one thing I think about often and it breaks my heart. Some people will go through life and they'll never know what it's like to be married to somebody who's chasing greatness.

Rachel Denning (14:01.794)
And the individual himself or herself won't know what it's like to chase greatness. They just settle into this comfort, this comfortable, easy existence. That's pathetic. I've often said for years that the greatest tragedy in life is when a human being fails to reach their full potential. Well, and our favorite definition of hell is when the person you are meets the person you could have become. That will be the ultimate suffering. Right.

Yeah, I mean, I've heard Jordan Peterson talk about it and it's hit me in a very poignant way because we need to have ideals. Like There need to be ideals in the world. There needs to be an ideal marriage example, like, you know, that we're striving for. There needs to be the ideal man, the ideal woman. Like we have to have ideals that inspire us towards better things. It's required.

It's necessary. There's a lot of danger in the world right now because people are throwing out ideals and they're saying, well, no, there's no standard. There's no definition of what should be. There's not even a definition of what a man or a woman is, right? Like it's whatever. There are no definitions. There are no ideals. That's actually very, very dangerous. And I think it's proving itself in the world now. Like that's the foundation of mental and emotional instability and almost insanity.

Right? Like mental illness is caused by a lack of clear ideals and clear boundaries. We need those things. They are necessary and required. And yet, the reality is most people will not reach those ideals, at least in this lifetime. Right? I personally believe in life after death. And I think our progress continues onward, afterwards. It can.

Rachel Denning (16:00.745)
Some people won't go anywhere in this life and they won't go anywhere in the next life either. favorite books is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis and it's just so hilarious because he just lays out this whole scenario where yeah people and I believe it's true that's why it's funny people will keep themselves out of heaven they will keep themselves from what's amazing and wonderful and great in this world because they just refuse to

participate and they're doing it now right now there's so much that's exactly what he's doing exactly there's so much he could enjoy so much more life and he's like why would I do that one of the things it's so bright and shiny and heaven everyone's so happy here this is annoying and we just want to settle into our own little pit of mediocrity yeah and it's absolutely pathetic so so yeah there's this kind of

uncomfortable dichotomy there of like, well, should we have ideals and should we be pursuing those ideals and knowing that we may never reach them? Knowing that we may never live up to those ideals? answer is absolutely. 100 % we should be chasing ideals. The answer is absolutely. But in reality, for many people, that may just be a lot of pain and suffering like she's talking about. It's going to be. Buckle up, buttercup.

I guess hold on we can't we can't chase greatness and we can't chase ideals without friction and challenge and and within ourselves of facing our own obstacles our own weaknesses our own demons facing the abyss and ourselves and then of course it is absolutely going to cause friction with other people you can't not you start moving towards your dreams especially if you move quickly

It's going to ruffle some feathers. You're going to bump into people on the way. You're to trip over people. You're to pull people over and push people down. mean, you try to do it as tactfully as possible, but it's going to be messy. But going back to how we started this podcast, if you mentally walk through the alternatives, one way or the other, at least from our perspective, the alternative is what? That you just digress? Acquiesce. Because if you stop.

Rachel Denning (18:16.43)
pursuing greatness, then by default you're settling into mediocrity, which eventually I think leads to digression. Instead of progression, you're digressing. Like that's really the alternative. And in the definition, you are damning yourself. You're damned. Where damming means to stop progression. That's what it means. Dam means stop progression. So you are literally damming yourself if you...

stop growing and progressing. Our whole thing is reach upward, the upward reach. Every one of us has that upward reach within us. Even this husband, despite the fact that he's fighting it, he has the upward reach. And if we choose to not pursue it, especially when we've been exposed to so much light, knowledge, information, inspiration, it is essentially damning. That's literally what will happen. So as painful as it is,

In a way, here we are answering the question already. How can you not pursue it? Because that would be like death to your own soul. So she says in a way, she says, which is more important to pursue personal development or to actually that was later. Oops, I skipped ahead. OK, go ahead. Let's let's keep going. OK, because then I have an assistant and she responded to her and said, thank you so much. I'll make sure.

Rachel sees this as a suggestion. Have you listened to these episodes yet? She says, and she listed number 254, what to do when your spouse isn't showing up in your family life.

can't read it, it's too small. To have a positive influence for change in your relationship. I just can't see the number. 270 and 167. How to get your spouse on board with your dream and goals. And so those of you listening, if this is something you can relate to, go listen to those episodes. And so then she responded and said, thank you. Yes, I have listened to every single episode multiple times. LOL and I love them all. I've just tried all the things, but he doesn't seem to care.

Rachel Denning (20:25.966)
guess my question really is is it possible to have an amazing life on your own that's a tough question I'm not done I want to intervene for a second that's a tough question it's not it's easy no well that's what I was gonna say but that's but we are meant to be together no I know it's true but it's a tough question because at the same time you can't expect your like I can't expect you to make me happy

Even though you bring lots of happiness to my life and us being together. of your happiness essentially is what I bring. Even though that's the case, I still can't rely on you making me happy. I have to be the one developing myself to be the best I can be so that we can have the best marriage we can have. So we are interdependent. It is an interdependence. I'm not dependent on you for my happiness.

But I am interdependent with you for my happiness and vice versa. And I mean, if people don't know this about us, they should. We are 100 % interdependent in a way that if something is off on our relationship, neither of us is happy.

That's just the truth. Like you are a very happy person, but one of the reasons you can be so happy is because we have a great relationship. Because you do what I tell you to do. Exactly. we would... If something is off... If you guys have never seen Greg Denning unhappy, well that's because most of the time things are good in our relationship. If it's ever off, he's not happy. You're not happy when things are off and vice versa. I am not happy when things are off in our relationship.

So based on that, yes, we know it is so much easier to be happy and to have an amazing life if you have a great relationship with your spouse. Now, does that mean you can't have any happiness or any amazingness in your life without that? No. You can have some. You can definitely create that. But I would say... It's like leveling up in a video game or something. It's like... Why would you bring video games into this? the level up thing is a video game

Rachel Denning (22:41.312)
Yes, you could reach a certain amount, but if you then added a great relationship to that, it's going to go even better. So the full capacity cannot be reached without a partner. But that doesn't mean... That's hard to say, but I wholeheartedly believe it. Like, you do unbelievable amazing things as a single person? Absolutely. Or divorced or widowed or whatever. Absolutely. 100%. Can you do great things? Can you have some happiness and joy and fulfillment? Absolutely. But can you reach your maximum potential?

Without a partner? Or fulfillment or pursuit or all of the above. the very least, just adds that. just multiplies it. Now, I think that that's also true the other way. Like, in a lot of ways, can you be sad and miserable and depressed on your own? Yes. Are you going to be even more sad and miserable and depressed with a rotten relationship? Yes. Like, it goes both ways. It's compounding. Yeah, it's compounding both ways because of the nature of

relationships and because of the nature of human beings. We are social creatures. We crave social connection and above all, a long-term intimate relationship. We all crave them. Anyone who doesn't is not normal. And I don't mean that in like a derogatory way. It's literally not normal. It's normal for people to want them. So that's one answer to that. Do you need, do you need to have a supportive spouse to be happy? We kind of already addressed that.

And if you don't, and self-improvement is just causing more damage and more void in your relationship, then do you stop? Well, that goes back to what we were saying. That's hard because if you stop, you're essentially damning yourself because you already know what's possible and that's literally going to kill your soul. So in a way, this question really... And we like to put it to an extreme because if you follow things out to their end, well, that's where they do become extreme.

If you stop developing yourself as a person and kill your soul, is that worth it for a mediocre marriage? Well, and fundamentally for me, the eternal purpose of life is progress and development. We are here to grow. So individually and then as a couple. Yes. And as a family and then to help others grow. That's that's the ultimate purpose of life. So if we're not growing.

Rachel Denning (25:09.762)
then we no longer are even capable of individual fulfillment and meaning and growth and self-actualization and contribution. So it's like, well, hey, the people around me aren't growing and developing, so I guess I'll slow down. And then all you do is make yourself more miserable. And depressed, really. Because she says, at what point is self-improvement more important than a marriage? Well, worded like that, almost sounds, especially because it's called

self-improvement it sounds like at what point is my selfish desire is more important than my marriage right it sounds like you're not willing to be self-sacrificing in order to save your marriage but if you look at it a different way where self-improvement is not some selfish pursuit but it's literally the development of your soul it's the best thing you can do right the best thing that i can do for humanity for for you rachel my wife for my children for other people the literal best thing i can do

is to make the most of myself. Right. And to put it another way is to listen to and develop your soul and to reach... Like there's lots of words we could use. You you're pursuing nirvana. You're pursuing enlightenment or self-actualization. Like there's so many different words that people have used, but to me they're all representing the same thing. You are trying to reach your potential on this earth, like your individual potential. And is it worth not doing that?

your marriage? I don't know. I would say no is what I would say. I think so too. So that brings us kind of to the topic of this podcast. Is that the end of the question? That's the end of this one. That we want to flesh out here, we want to kind of walk through is like at what point do you consider divorce? And we're bringing this up, like we said before, not because we're suggesting, hey you should just divorce this guy. He's a loser. We're not saying that. Right. We don't know.

We don't have enough insight. What we are saying is it's a valuable process to mentally and emotionally walk through this so that you can make a decision for yourself if, in a scenario like this, divorce is the answer for you. And I think I'm going to throw this out here because I think that's important. You and I, got married and we said, we'll never get divorced. And I don't know that we've actually ever talked about this specifically, but I do.

Rachel Denning (27:35.694)
I do think we both believe, and maybe you'll correct me here, that we realize that, hypothetically, one of us could get to a point where the other one would divorce us. Because our thing is not divorce no matter what. It was, though. Let's work through this. It starting out. Yes. But it was for a specific purpose, not like, you can do anything and I'll never divorce you, or I can do anything and you never divorce me. It wasn't that. was like.

Like we're not going into this leaving the back door wide open so one of us can run away if things gets hard. Yeah, it wasn't, it's like, if this doesn't work out, we're out of here. It was like, look, we're going in with a full commitment. We're going to both grow. We're committing to grow. We're committing to be our best selves. We're committing to work through our problems. That was the mindset we went in with and it was super important. Well, and I think that that that was inherent to that belief we had. The belief was.

divorce isn't an option, but with those underlying conditions, even though I don't know that we ever explicitly said them, they were almost, it's like what we felt. We knew that we were both on this path of growth and personal development, and so as long as we're on that path together, well divorce isn't an option because we're just gonna figure it out, we're gonna work through the problems. That is what I truly believe too, and that's the advice I give. If you're both willing to work at it, don't get divorced, because you can figure it out.

And you'll likely be unhappier outside of marriage. Well, and want to talk through all of that more in detail. But in a scenario like this where one person is not willing, that's when you have to start wondering like, you have to start asking these harder questions. Because as I was trying to say, even for you and I, if I decided I'm done with personal development, I'm going to just start eating donuts. I'm going to sit around all day.

and watch my favorite shows. Your soap operas. And that's about it. Just let yourself go. I'm not kidding. If that went on for two, three, 10 years, Greg would be gone. At two or three months. No. I'm giving you the little benefit of the doubt here, babe. I'm trying to help people realize you're not that harsh. Two to three days, it's a serious issue. Two to three weeks, I'm drawing a hard line. And that's true. At two to three months, I'm like.

Rachel Denning (29:59.852)
You're giving an ultimatum. Yeah, it's a hard ultimatum. I will not tolerate that. I know people are like, wow, great. insane. Like, you're a little harsher. Now, let's be understanding. When I'm pregnant, I'm practically that's practically a description of me when I'm pregnant, minus the donuts. I don't do the donuts, but I love to sit around and watch my favorite shows. And during that time, you. Well, manage it because up with it, you dealt with it for whatever reason. Having a temper, having a baby inside of you just altered.

Well, okay, all my completely alters your biochemistry, which makes you a different person and so I was Super patient. Yeah, and I was like, okay, I'm married to Rachel This is not the woman I married this is not the woman I'll be married to for years This is this is the strange baby carrier here. And so I was unbelievably patient I get that and and so then if something changes and I guess I want to hit this home right now

Before you get to these big drastic decisions and somewhat final decisions, a divorce is pretty final. You literally have to do everything in your power to change it, prevent it, alter it, transform it, whatever. Now, here's what I see, and I've seen this for 25 plus years. We try 10 or 15 or 20 things, and we think I've done everything.

And I hear that all the time. And it was even said in this question. It's like, I've done all the things. That's not true. I have not personally met with your husband yet. Don't ever draw the line and say, I'm getting divorced unless he's at least met with me. I know I can get to this guy. I know I can because I do all the time. I know if I were to talk to him, I'd know exactly what his real problem is. There's an underlying cause to the underlying cause.

You say he's unwilling to progress, he's unwilling to change. There's something there. There's some blockage, some fear, some resentment, something's blocking that. I could get to that and I can unlock it. You know, we went to counseling. I don't think counseling works. I'd say 99 out of a hundred counselors, they need coaching.

Rachel Denning (32:15.98)
They themselves need coaching. It just doesn't work. It's not helping. and most most counseling causes divorces. It's just great I was gonna say that because she said she's read all the books I would love to specifically know if she's read the empowered wife by Laura Doyle and she in there You and I you believe this for years and I used to think maybe there's just something wrong with us That we believe this but then she confirmed it. Yeah, she's like counseling leads to divorce and the reason why it does is because

The focus of counseling is on talking about the problems of your spouse. Generally, in front of your spouse and in front of another person, which just causes more problems, especially for men, counseling doesn't work. What does work is coaching because coaching focuses on changing behavior to get the results that you actually want. And giving you the tool. And giving you the And again, there's a lot of crap coaches out there, just absolute garbage coaches. paid whatever for some stupid certification. They have no results. And they don't know how to work with people.

but a really good coach will help you recognize your own problem and then offer, help you come up with solutions that actually work for you to create better results. So I can meet with this guy and transform. The other thing you haven't done, you haven't met with Rachel and do coaching with her because she's going to walk through these things. And the reason I'm so adamant about this is because we all have our blind spots and it's so hard to see. We think, I'm doing all this and I'm doing all that and I've changed so much. I've progressed so much.

And I guarantee, like this is for everybody who's listening, I guarantee, sit down with us for 30 minutes. Or invite us over for 10 minutes and we can pinpoint 10 different things. Yes, bam. Just tell me your habits. Tell me what's going on. I'll ask a few pointed questions, like boom, there it is. You still have tons of low hanging fruit. And like, I do this and this. Like, there it is right there. That's why your husband's so resentful.

You didn't know it, you're unconscious, it's totally innocent, but it's collusion. You're causing the very problem you're trying to avoid. And I, you guys, I see this every single week. I have men come to me and I have women come to me and they're like, I'm doing everything. And my spouse this or my kids that, I'm like, okay, tell me about what you're doing. And within a few minutes, I'm like, there's one thing,

Rachel Denning (34:36.59)
There's another thing. There's another thing. And then they're sitting here crying. like, there's still so, so, so much you can do. I know you've made a lot of progress. Fantastic. Celebrate that. I know you've come a long way. Great. But you're actually missing this, this, this, and this. So you're not anywhere even close to saying, I've done everything. Should I leave my spouse? It's like, well, no. You have 15 other things right here that are actually really easy to do.

to change yourself to get better results to start influencing your spouse or your kids. Yeah. And this is another challenging, we've run into this a lot actually. And so I think it's important to bring up now because one of the other challenging aspects of self-development.

Everyone's on a different journey. Like, that's just the case. Everyone is on a different journey and everyone started at different points. And so you could show up at the same point as someone else and be like, my gosh, I had to come all of this way. This was a long, long process. And yet when you get there, you have people that came a shorter distance or came from another place. And then, you know, everybody, because of that background, you know, they may not recognize that for you, it was a lot more work.

Exactly. And the other side of that is then they're like, no, well, that's actually where we're going up there. Way, way up there. you're like, I thought I've arrived. Yeah, I thought I arrived because I've come all this way. Exactly. And you're telling me it's not good enough. We haven't even started. We haven't even started the trip. And what I thought was a mountain was a little molehill. Like, dang. Unfortunately, sometimes that's the case, you know. And so the point is

many people along our journey who have, you know, walked with us for a time on the path, they get frustrated and upset and end up leaving sometimes because they're like, it's never good enough, Dennings. You're always saying there's more. You're always saying what I've done isn't enough. And that's not to discount what you have done because what you've done is amazing. It's great. But if we were to sit here and tell you, that's enough. Good job. Way to go. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (36:51.15)
That's good. You're right. You've done everything. be lying to you. be totally lying. It's not true. And again, we hold ourselves to this own center. Yeah. Like I would never ever, ever say, I've done enough. I've done it all. pushups. I've done enough workouts. I've arrived. I'm just going take it easy. you should love me as I am. Because I've come a long way. When we got engaged, I told her that. like, I will never ask you to love me as I am. And I still don't to this day. 23 years plus of marriage, I'm still not. You should love me as I am because I'm a pretty good guy.

It's like, I'm not stopping. I'm not stopping. And so when I look in the mirror, am I ever going to say, you're good enough? Nope. And now to some people, depending on how they interpret that, they might think, that's so unhealthy. Well, the way I do it is super healthy. And we have the results to back it up. Results don't lie. Like the way we do this, this whole of it's never good enough.

We do it in a healthy way that's actually really, really good. It's good for us, good for our marriage, good for our family, our kids. It works because it's done right. Now, I see people who take the never good enough thing and they do it in an unhealthy way and it's super destructive. We both have a very healthy sense of self-worth. We feel valuable, competent, confident.

but at the same time not satisfied with where we're at and what Yeah, because I've detached that. we're separated. Me saying it's never enough has nothing to do with my self-worth. Literally nothing. Nothing, nothing. It is a completely different subject where a lot of people, try to overlap it or try to connect it. Like, if all this work I did is never good enough, that must mean I am not good enough. I'm worthless. I'm a loser. Whatever. That has nothing to do with it at all. They're completely separate. So the cold hard reality is...

And it's actually exciting too because you get to keep growing. you haven't done enough and you haven't had the exposure yet and you haven't had the in your face coaching yet. So I don't know who you are. I don't know what your scenario is. I don't know you or your spouse or your family or whatever. So the only one thing I can guarantee is you haven't met with me yet. Like I know that has happened. So you can't say I've done everything because you haven't done that.

Rachel Denning (39:11.598)
Unless we don't know who you are and you have met with Gray. It is anonymous. If that's the case. If that's the case, then we need to have another talk here. Something's going on. But I promise there are things there. And of course, part of it is going to be like, there's no way he'll meet with you or this or that or whatever. That's where you have to ultimatum. So whenever I get questions like this, I'm like, I'll put myself in your shoes. What would I do?

I would keep trying and I try different angles and I would keep going and then at some point again walking down this path we've talked about mentally at some point I'm going to say either you meet with this person openly, committedly, willing to hear them out and make changes or I'm gone. Well, okay. It gets to that point. This is where I want to come back to this whole you know at what point do you consider divorce?

And I want to walk through that a little bit because you might say, wow, that's extreme, especially because she brings up the point. It's not like he's done anything wrong. It's not like he's cheated on her per se or. Which is all the more reason to pursue the coaching and put some firm boundaries in place. Well, and the reason why we are walking through this extreme scenario, one, for the reason we mentioned before, it's just a valuable mental process to walk through that. If you never consider the worst case scenario, then you lack

when you make decisions in the other direction, right? You have to mentally walk through that at least. And so we're not saying jump to, hey, ultimatum, you better meet with Greg or we're getting divorced. We're not saying that. But we're Long before that, you bring up that as an option and then even insist. Well, you bring it up as something you're considering. hey, because here's the thing. The advantage of discussing extreme situations is it helps-

your partner understand where you are mentally and emotionally. If you're even considering that option because you're at the end of your rope, then they know like, wow, this is really serious. We know a couple who, you know, they were fighting a lot and having these things and she kept saying, we just need to get divorced. We should get divorced. And he finally, after a while was like,

Rachel Denning (41:29.73)
He thought about it, he prayed about it, he like really considered it and finally said, okay, we'll get divorced. And she finally realized, no, I was just saying that, I didn't really mean that. I don't wanna get divorced. But it wasn't until he brought it up that she realized how much that affected him negatively. And then she stopped doing it. How her behavior was so toxic. Where he finally was like, yeah, I'm willing to consider divorce, that's how bad it is for me. If you keep doing this crap.

I will divorce you and she's like whoa. That was a reality check which then helped them to improve their relationships. So sometimes we have to have those reality checks and if you really feel like again you should continue doing more like Greg said because there's probably more you can do. Tons. But as you walk through this mentally and emotionally keep that as an option in your mind because you need to decide for yourself how strongly do I feel about this especially in the context of yeah.

To me, there's not really an option. You can't just say, I'm going to stop growing and improving. That's like saying, OK, this is extreme. But in a way, it's like, I'll just kill myself. I'll just stop my soul from developing. You're killing your soul. No, I'm not going to do that for the sake of my marriage. Well, you literally, it is a form of mental and emotional and spiritual death. Yeah, it is. And so that, to me, is just not an option. You have to realize.

I need to keep growing. need to keep improving. What I want and need is for you to do it with me. Because that's the best path. Why would you refuse to grow and develop when that is the purpose of life? You're refusing to live life. Maybe this is a good point to interject it. On the path of personal development, one stage is you are growing and you figure out how to grow for you.

a completely different stage, much higher stage of personal development is to learn how to influence others in their personal development. And, and that's, it's, an essential element of growth and development. is a very different skill. And it must be developed. Like we're not, we're not fully developed as individuals until we can earn significant influence with those around us in our circle of influence. So,

Rachel Denning (43:57.11)
For those of you listening, maybe the next phase of your personal individual development is developing the skills and abilities to influence others. I love to call it diplomacy because we watched a great series once called Madam Secretary and it had a lot of diplomacy and diplomats in it. it made that connection for me very powerfully of like, this is a skill, this is a job, this is a thing people do.

and we can gain diplomacy in our own family life. We can learn the skills of diplomacy. We have to. communication and influencing and persuading and...

Rachel Denning (44:39.63)
I'm coming up with another. all the great words there. I've used all the words. There's another one. we can learn to do all of that just like a government official can use in dealing with another nation. I think those are poor examples because most government officials are corrupt and. I get that. And they lie. But I think your point is. that and apply it in our own family life. And the way I like to see it is like, look, I'm not developed near as much as I think I am if I can't influence other people.

So if I were in this scenario and I'm like, I'm making all this growth and my wife isn't and my kids aren't, I'm going to stop myself right there and say, well, wait a minute. I'm not near as developed as I think I am because I can't even influence them to change. Clearly I have not developed enough. So I start looking at myself and realize, man, there's so much more I can do first. because I still lack influence. If I can't get you, Rachel, to do something, then

I am not developed enough as a person, as an individual. If I can't get my kids to willingly buy in, I'm not there. I just know that. it would be very arrogant and prideful of me to sit here be like, I have grown so much, but my kids just won't listen. Because the reality check is, clearly, I haven't grown enough because my kids aren't listening. Yes, that's true. It's a hard reality check, and it's super important. And then the other side of it is.

It just takes time sometimes. Because as you're... don't think so. because I want to use example because people already know this part of our story where the whole exercise thing. You were totally sold and convinced on exercise, but it probably took you a good 10 to 15 years to convince me or to persuade me enough to join in that pursuit. You know what saying? And that was partly...

you developing your skills of being able to influence me in the right way and my own growth journey of me coming around to that belief. So sometimes I think it just takes time.

Rachel Denning (46:53.132)
Interesting. That's all you got say? Interesting? Yeah. Well, no, just, well, in this specific example, we just operate on extremely different planes on exercise. And you, for whatever reason, from your childhood experiences, operate with an insane resistance to exercise. I guess, that's the point, though. That no matter what, you know, in...

in any relationship like this one, there's going to be those elements. And so you might think, well, it's kind of like you're saying, it was your thing with your whatever. Well, yeah, but that's the point. That's the point. I had a blockage about, and we've talked through it a lot with exercise and sweating and all of these, my face getting red, all of these. Like I had this whole thing from my childhood that was blocking me, which then, of course, blocks your influence, especially if you're

addressing aspects of it that don't connect with the real issue for me, right? So that becomes an inherent part of the challenge of influencing.

because we have to learn how to work through those things or I simply have to, yeah, you're right, it could have been addressed faster if you and I, because the other problem is I don't know, I'm not aware of it. When you begin processing something like this, neither person is aware of what the issues are. One, we didn't have the understanding of human psychology. I didn't have enough understanding or awareness of myself. You didn't have enough understanding and awareness of women and how to work and influence me.

So there was a lot of different factors there that had to be worked through in order to get to the core of the issue. Now today, if we got married today with all the information and knowledge we have, yeah, we could come to a faster solution with that. It wouldn't have taken 15 years, but we didn't have that. And so we had to learn all of those different skills, all of those different aspects to be able to get to the source of the issue to then be able to remove that block, which kept me from exercising.

Rachel Denning (49:02.338)
But there's still, guess this is a good point to share here. We have to choose what we're willing to.

Rachel Denning (49:12.206)
Fight for and stand for there's nothing more that I would love than to have you climb Mont Blanc with me next summer but you're not there and Probably don't want to I Would absolutely love for you to go back and summit Kilimanjaro with me, but you don't want to

Rachel Denning (49:37.838)
My whole life I dreamed of having my partner at my side doing these big adventures, but that's not what you're not willing to do that. So it was something I had to. Accept or accept. Yeah. Yeah. If it was like that and like everything then yeah. At that point I'd be like, we're, we're, getting a divorce. I'm moving on, but that was one I just had to let go of and it still pains me.

Everywhere I go every cool thing. I'm always like I wish Rachel was here. Okay, I'm sorry specifically in the very physical Challenging things in those things because some of the best things in life are only Experienced at the other side of insane physical Effort pain and suffering. Yeah, there's there's suffering there mountaineering just demands that

So one thing I did very early on when I realized you weren't going to do that is I'm like, I'm taking my kids. And so as soon as they were old enough, they go with me and they still do. you're, in fact, you haven't even summited Kilimanjaro yet, but your two teens did. They made it. They made it because you were vomiting. I had vomited like seven times by the time I reached 17,000 feet. And I was thing is you guys come back with these stories and then you want

And well because we come back and we're like that was so hard we suffered so much let's do it again and you're like there was suffering I'm out it was hard and uncomfortable wait it was cold too I'm out. I was at my all-inclusive room with three meals served today. That's the problem you were in the lap of luxury while we were puking our guts out on the mountain.

And I and I yeah, there's not a part of me that was like I wish I know I know but I wish you were so that was one thing I'm like, okay I gotta I'm gonna go with my kids and maybe some cool friends But even then it's never enough when I'm up there with them like this amazing. I'm like, I wish Rachel was here so that's one thing I just had to set aside so As we walk through this the whole because I want to bring it back to you, you know, when do we consider divorce?

Rachel Denning (52:00.918)
Like ultimately, there's always a part of this. There is no relationship where, at least that we know, where the spouses are on board 100 % with all things. And that's true with us in a lot of ways. Like, you know, even deciding where to live or which trips to pursue or which dreams to pursue. There's a lot of discussion that goes on for us. And we have to figure out and navigate.

What is it that we actually pursue together? And what is it that I or you have to let go of and be like, OK, I guess that's just a thing. The other example with us is, OK, yeah, great. I wasn't going to think that one because it was my example. I love dogs. I love a specific breed of dogs. Not just dogs. He loves giant, hairy, slobbery dogs.

Monstrous dogs that slobbering amazing. I don't like that. They slobber, but I tolerate the slobber Rachel can't stand that they slobber. I just and she just wants nothing whatever to do with dogs. So there's another one So she can't stand my dog that's excellent example and I Have I have my dogs. Yeah, and she hates them every day Another example the other one I was going to

I was just hating them this morning. Rachel could live anywhere as long as she has a nice house. It's true.

Rachel Denning (53:30.926)
In my mind, I'm like, she doesn't do anything. She doesn't do anything. So as long as she has a nice house, she's good. People probably listen to this and laugh because they're like, Rachel's traveled with you to 57 countries. which is true. And I love traveling. I really do. But I'm also very much a homebody where I can literally spend weeks in my house and not go anywhere. And it doesn't bother me. Not a problem. And that would put me right on the edge of death. Or

Insanity first then death. Because I have to be doing things. And so where we live matters because I want proximity to adventure, to fun, to challenge. I want to be paddle boarding and mountain biking and rock climbing and skydiving. I want to play. I want to squeeze the juice out of life. And she's like, why? As long as I have a beautiful kitchen and a nice bedroom, we're good. I'm like, woman, that is like the epitome of an empty life.

And it's not that I'm against those things per se. How this happened for us is because we were living in Georgia, the state. Which is, for our family, a very boring state. I was content simply because we had a good size house, we were comfortable, we had a backyard, we were there for COVID, I thought it was great.

And but we moved and we left because it was just so boring. And that's how we ended up in Portugal because now here there's paddle boarding. of the nine of us were bored out of our minds. I don't know about eight out of nine, maybe six or seven out of nine because there's a couple others like kind of like me. But that's how we ended up here. And again, I'm completely content here.

You've got all the outdoor stuff you want. I also like it because we go to the beach, we go paddle boarding. can play every day. Every single day within eight minutes or eight to 30 minutes where we have a choice of dozens of beaches. And it's great. But I'm also content because I.

Rachel Denning (55:30.584)
I have my house and I can also be here and not leave and I'm good. So that was our discussion for so long. It's like, OK, as long as you just have a nice house, let me just put it somewhere that's actually a cool place to live. OK, but we're going through all these little tangents here, illustrating things that you have to. There are going to be elements of negotiation or cooperation or like.

of contention that you have to learn to navigate as a couple. Now of course a prerequisite for that is the willingness to negotiate, the willingness to discuss, because in order for us to come to any of those conclusions and to understand those things that we've just outlined, there's been a lot of discussion that's gone on over the years, like a lot. A lot of uncomfortable conversations. friction, like that friction was involved in those discussions. So that's an

inherent part of marriage. Now there does need to be a willingness. So coming back to the question, at what point do you consider divorce? If there is not a willingness to even engage in some of those conversations, then yeah, it might be a point where you say, gosh, I don't know what else to consider. I don't know what else to think through. Maybe I do need to consider this.

I did want to walk through some of those thinking points, know, so as kind of helping someone through this process to mentally walk through it. Again, not because we're saying this is the course you should take, but because there's value in walking through it to help you know if it's a course you should take or not. And because sometimes if you provide this...

something you have been thinking about it does allow your spouse to know where you are like you're dead serious about this mentally and emotionally like this it really really matters to you it's important before that ever gets there those that you've got to be able to articulate really well I guess probably in writing because like to get something on paper requires you to think through it in a way

Rachel Denning (57:35.182)
But you have to understand it, right? So even if you just write it for yourself, it's not for the other person, you are going to be able to write it out and be like, OK, this is why it matters so much to me. Very often, our spouses don't understand that. We can tell them, it was so much emotion, this is so important. They're like, why? I don't get it. Right. Or I just want you to do this. And they're like, OK, so what that you want me to do? Until we can articulate and it clicks.

So until Rachel, she shares something, I'm like, okay. And she's, I'm like, whatever. And then she keeps going, keeps going. And finally I'm like, Okay, now I know why you care so much. Okay, I'll do it. Right before I'm like, why are making such a big deal? You're making such a big deal out of it. It's not that big of a deal. I didn't get it.

Yeah, you told me, so I thought I got it, but it still didn't register. But once I get it, I'm like, man, OK, that's different. We have to get there. And I think sometimes this unwillingness we see in others can be exposed and can be talked through. And maybe it can't be talked through right now with your spouse. mean, that's a very common thing with many couples. They just can't talk through it together.

and they couldn't talk through it with a counselor or something if they're still there. I often when I'm when I'm coaching couples, I'll often meet with them individually so that there's no pressure. There's no strings attached. There's no there's nothing there that keeps them from just being fully open and honest. Hey, let's let's just be real. Like, tell me what's going on. Your spouse thinks you're completely unwilling to even grow or progress. Like, what's going on? Like, tell me the real issue.

And then then we can bring that up like, all right. That's important. Can we work through that? Like, yeah, let's help me help me get through it. Yeah. And so the unwillingness is often just a front for something else. Yeah, because I've noticed, at least in myself and in others, that oftentimes when we can't articulate the thing, because one of the reasons because we don't fully understand it ourselves.

Rachel Denning (59:54.838)
It's like we just keep using these defense mechanisms. It might be the words we say or that we don't say or certain behaviors, but really it's just a way of protecting ourselves against something we're not quite sure how to explain. I just, this thing, I don't know how to explain it. And so we just keep doing that thing rather than digging in and doing the hard work of figuring out, why is it that way? Why do I feel that way? And once we learn how, once we learn to understand it ourselves, then it's easier for us to explain that to our spouse.

which then bridges that gap, like she's talking about, of misunderstanding because now you actually have the words to have the conversation, where before the words just aren't there. They're not there. Or you're using words which have totally different definitions, which we've talked about before. Like you might be saying this one word that means something to you, and to him it means something totally different. And maybe it's something negative, right? And so he's like, would we want to do growth? Why would I want that? That's a negative thing, right? For some reason. Painful or whatever.

Or I know, I know, especially with men, a lot of men I've talked to, they get to a point where they're like, they really think what's the point? It doesn't matter what I do. She's never happy. It's never good enough. She just nags. I change. She asked me to do something. I do it. Nothing changes. She asked me to do something else. I do it. Nothing changes. Like, what's the point? So they learn, they get this in the sense of learned helplessness and helplessness. And they're like, why?

It'll never end. I could do the 20 things she wants, but it won't change anything. She'll just come up with another 20 things and I still won't get as much sex as I want. So, and that's a common one, which is super important. And it's not, it's not right that men think that way. They're, misunderstanding it, but it's a reality of how many men think. Right. So people who are genuinely, truly unwilling to change and grow.

are extremely rare. Extremely rare. The rest of the time, the unwillingness is a front or a reaction to something else. Well, and that's what's difficult, is because she's probably saying, well, I don't want to just keep giving him things to work on. I want him to be pursuing growth. I want him to be interested in developing himself. And that's, think, where you come in. I think the reality is.

Rachel Denning (01:02:22.84)
think a lot of men who feel that sort of resistance, need another man to help them navigate that process. tribe of men, I don't think that's something a wife can help them navigate. Right. Agreed. Like, I'm trying to think through. I really don't think it is. I don't think, like, I do not give you your sense of motivation and drive. You just have that. Now, perhaps I know our relationship.

plays into that just like we talked about before. If our relationship is off, you lose that motivation and drive. So having a healthy relationship and that actually I think is a key piece to understanding this is that healthy relationships gives you that motivation and drive but not because I'm telling you. It's not like I'm telling you, hey, Greg, you need to get up and work and do all these things. You have this motivation and drive within you that's kept healthy and strong by our healthy relationship.

And if that relationship is off, that motivation and drive is killed, essentially. Yes. And there's been times when it's off where I realize, this is on me. I need to level up. And that drives me as well. So my sincere desire for a fantastic marriage and a great family is a huge motivator. And I know that by improving myself, it naturally improves our marriage and improves our family life. So I keep pushing.

But that doesn't come from me telling you those things. Exactly, or nagging on me. Because a lot of wives, when they communicate, it comes across as constantly nagging and complaining. And you're unique in that you kind of have that, it's almost like you have this internal coach that's coaching you. But a lot of men need someone else to point these things out to them and to help them find their own internal motivation, their own internal drive.

Connect the dots internally as well. So that they then have that thing that she's looking for. She's looking for that. And we've heard people tell us this all the time. They want their man to be driven. They want a man who's pursuing something. That's attractive. But until they find that themselves or have someone help them find it, it doesn't just happen. And so then it just comes across as nagging. What's the point? She's just telling me to do all these things. And I do them. doesn't. Which is.

Rachel Denning (01:04:47.534)
also unattractive. So it's kind of this cycle that they have to get out of. Yeah, you make such a great point. Like our entire culture is degenerate. It's just an absolute mess. And For the vast majority of men, they genuinely don't know that they should be pursuing something else because they've checked the boxes. Right. Like I get my degree. I get a career. get married. I have kids. I'm providing. What else is there?

What in the why are you complaining? Why do you care? Like I go to work. You have a nice house. You have nice things like we're eating. Like what else do you want? What else is there? He exactly what else is there? So a lot of it is just this huge blank. Like what? Why are you so upset? Like we have we've we've done all the things we have arrived. What's wrong with you woman? And so he's going to think.

You're messed in the head. Like you're just never satisfied. can't be contained. You're grateful. all this stuff. Like what's wrong with you? Simply because he's never been given a vision of what's beyond the degree, the career of the family providing check the boxes. And that's what I get to do with the men I work with. It's like, brother, you just hit the fundamentals. But when you get there, when you're late thirties, early forties,

you've just barely set up the foundation for what you're really going to build. But most men do not know that. They don't get it. They have no idea. They think they've done what they're supposed to have done because that's what society says and nobody else has exposed them to more. Yeah. Well, that's true with so many things that we've talked about before. Most people don't become wealthy or have an incredible marriage or...

XYZ fill-in-the-blank because they've never been exposed to it. They don't know that it's a possibility, right? And so that's true in the case like this I did have a bunch of thoughts about specifically considering divorce walking through that that I want to talk through Because we do want to point out that in the majority of cases People believe that getting divorced will solve their problems and make them happier But I would say for the most part that's not necessarily true

Rachel Denning (01:07:09.698)
Because you have to realize that in some ways it's like a math problem. That's how I think about it. And if you're being challenged right now with one spouse and the children you have, if you get divorced, and now obviously with the intent of probably adding another relationship to your life, now it's like multiplying your problems. And now you think I'll get rid of my spouse, I'll get rid of my problems. No, now you have an ex-spouse.

Yes, now you have an ex-spouse. And now you kids going That you will continue to have a relationship for the rest of your children's lives. now you have another spouse, which the other aspect you have to consider is that people who are pursuing greatness are extremely rare. You're not going to get divorced and then go out and find some Mr. Greatness pursuer right away and get married and be happily ever after. No, that's not likely to happen. You're probably going to, one, not find anybody.

And two, if you find someone, there's going to be a lot of the similar problems. Ooh, and loneliness. The loneliness in in between, you're going to be lonely. That's the worst stuff. Can I interject here for something I've thought about for years but have rarely ever mentioned?

It's also this dreamy idea that living with somebody who's pursuing greatness is really easy and wonderful and fun. Right. It's not. It's not. And it's often uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable. And infuriating. And so you think, there's nothing more than I would want that a spouse that's chasing greatness. Like that's what you think. Yeah, you better buckle up. up a cinnamon roll and put it in your mouth. What the hell are you putting in your mouth? Don't you love me?

Don't you love life? Don't you love our kids and our future grandkids? What are you doing to yourself? Don't you dare get a microwave? Are you kidding me? Why did you buy that? Why are you turning that on? What are you doing with your time? And this sounds harsh. People probably think, my gosh, you guys are miserable. Like what's going on? We have a lot of fun and we like, I'm because yesterday we were wrestling. Rachel and I were wrestling.

Rachel Denning (01:09:25.422)
Because it's kind of fun right now. We have this unique dynamic because we have a family that came to stay for our study abroad program and then they left. It was two different families and they left. They each left a child with us. Okay. So they left their, I don't know, 12 and 13 year old boys to stay with us. We have a 14 year old boy, which is great. So now he's got these friends staying, but they're learning a lot about our family culture and different things.

And we had a 10 year old that's been sick with diarrhea and she was watching a movie yesterday. Well, the boys. As will happen. If there's a movie on. of this age. It's like. They gravitated. Moths to the light. To the flame. And so we come into the apartment and they're all there watching the movie with the little girls. And so of course, Greg has something to say about it, right? You're living with someone pursuing greatness. So watching a movie in the middle of the day.

It's not going to go unspoken, right? There's going to be words set. And as is my nature, I like to kind of soften that blow intentionally, often, with some playfulness, with some kind of playing the devil's advocate a little. And I know your favorite phrase, but you know, I like to kind of play that role so that they know it's not a serious, even though it's serious, but I'm softening it a little. That's my job as a nurturer and a motherly role. softener.

Yes, the softener. And so it got to the point where we were playfully wrestling, like legit wrestling. And I'm like, Greg, just calm down. Just it's OK. Just chill out, you know. And we were having fun and laughing and. But at the same time, my son off his chair and then threw Rachel on top of them and was wrestling both of them. Lots of wrestling. And these two boys were watching. They're just like, wow. this is full on wrestling match in the kitchen. And then, of course, the movie went off and.

And the lesson was learned. And the lesson was learned. Yeah, we are serious. There's not movies allowed for 13-year-old boys in the middle of the day because they need to be doing their studies and playing real games or going outside. That's what's expected when you're staying with us. Well, and they want to buy junk food. Yeah. No, absolutely unacceptable. you kidding? That's not allowed in our But we eat that. I'm like, here you don't.

Rachel Denning (01:11:50.174)
I love you too much to let you poison yourself. to make your bed. you need to get up and read a book. Do something with yourself. Yeah, do something with your life. These are all the things that are expected. And so you're right. That's the other thing. If you're here, if you're in the Denning presence, you're working out. Right. You're rolling with us? Buckle up. Yeah. The gym's there, and it's meant for you to be used. So get in there and use it. So you better get after it. And so, yeah, in some ways people have...

this rosy view of what that looks like and the reality is it can be very uncomfortable or it's demanding it is it's demanding and we like we like that that's the kind of stuff we like although I'll be honest I'm not I don't like it a hundred percent of the time you know there are some days where I'm just like I would just rather watch a movie today but I don't because I hold myself to higher standards

Because I And she knows that I get But that's other thing too though. In some ways that is a positive thing though. Absolutely. That when we hold each other to those same standards, And that's not to say that it never happens. we never, know, sometimes you're sick or I'm sick or whatever. And it's like, OK, it's a movie day. But when we hold ourselves to standards of productivity and. Health.

health and fitness and just being intentional with your time, it is easier to not do those things because we're all living by that same standard. And guess that's the thing we all want is that when I feel weak and I really would rather not do what I want to do, I have you and the kids there to keep me honest. Yeah.

And help me like when I when I just like I'd rather do something lazy or take the day off. You would be right there like what are you doing. Well and now that's with our older kids too. I mean they they hold the stand. Sometimes they hold it more than I do and I'm like I'm the mother here. Let me give a little leniency to this child. I get to decide right. But they're like no they shouldn't be doing that. And they hold the standards. Yeah they hold standards.

Rachel Denning (01:14:05.098)
So having standards is great but it's not always comfortable. Absolutely it's not always comfortable. So we have to also remember and I guess we need to remember that on the other side if we are the ones holding the standard that that can become if it's not mutual we do become very difficult to live with. Especially if you're tactless that's the only thing I see a lot it's like one one spouse starts chasing greatness and they just become so tactless.

Right, well, and I mean, just in the examples we gave, if I wasn't on board with you, if I didn't agree with the junk food thing or the movie thing or whatever, all these different rules we have, there would be a lot of conflict between us. Because I would be saying, what's the matter with you? Why are you so strict? Why are you so blah, blah, blah, like always coming down?

Let's play that out for a minute because I think it'll be extremely helpful for today's topic. Let's say, for example, you were completely OK with video games and junk food. Let's just play out the scenario because that's a real scenario for a lot of families. As an example of problems that people have or they fight over. And those are two that I'm just extremely adamant against. So the way I would do that, I would say, if you're

going to say it's OK for the kids, at a minimum, you've got to read these books and totally understand the research and science. You're saying I would have to read them. So if I'm, you're saying, yes. you would push enough. I would absolutely insist. I would be like, OK, I will let you, you can make the rules as long as you first read these books. Exactly. Otherwise, I'm going to keep having a piano here. here's my framework is.

Until you've educated yourself on something, you literally don't have the quote right to even have an opinion or make decisions about it. Like there's there's no way in the world. I was actually thinking this this morning because of this this desire for junk food. I was like, no, like as a parent, you you don't even have the right to make decisions about what your kids eat or don't eat until you've educated yourself enough to know what you're giving them. We do. They do have the right because that's

Rachel Denning (01:16:27.726)
Well, okay, you have the freedom, at a higher level, at a higher standard, like you, no way, you're so ignorant about food and what's in it, you can't even make a competent decision. You have no idea what you're actually doing. So, you know, random parent A is like, no, my kids can eat this and eat that. I give it to him. I'm like, you have no idea what you're doing. You literally have no idea what you're poisoning your kids. None. And you haven't done any homework.

So you're like, yeah, of course my kids can eat that. Why wouldn't they be able to eat that? I'm like, yeah, you shouldn't be able to make that decision. It sounds like totalitarianism here, Greg. Well, it's to this point, what it is, it's a higher, and I would never take away somebody's choice, right? That's totalitarianism. I'm taking away your freedom to choose. What I would teach, and I love to teach, like- saying should and an ideal. Yeah, in an idealism, right? In an ideal. You're like, hey,

And this, I coach people. like, look, don't, don't you dare make decision. And I say this to myself. said, don't you dare make a decision about important things until you understand it. So for example, like these parents are like, no, it's totally fine to play video games. I'm like, yeah. How much research have you done on that? Have you read the books? So in this case, I say glow kids is a book and then the anxious generation. So it's a, when you have read those two books at a minimum, then we'll discuss them.

And then we'll talk about whether or not the kids can play video games. But until you've read that, you can't have an opinion. Does that make sense? Well, because your opinion is so uninformed of you can't actually have an informed opinion because you haven't informed yourself. And the same with like, so I would have, you if we're talking about food, if you're like, no, it's OK if our kids eat junk food and snacks and treats and.

Whatever. Even if you're like cinnamon rolls and bagels. Homemade cinnamon rolls. I don't know why. But your daughter loves to bake. Yeah exactly. So and she's a good baker. Books like Why We Get Sick. Absolutely mandatory for every family. And Dr. Amon's books of what food does to the brain and to behavior. Right. Until you've read and understood those things.

Rachel Denning (01:18:52.398)
You can't in clear conscience be making a good decision for your children's health because you literally have no clue. None. And you're just sitting there thinking, I think it's OK. Those things are. else eats it. They sell it at the store. It's FDA approved. It's approved. They wouldn't sell it in America if it wasn't. If it was actually dangerous for our health.

We are learning people are learning otherwise thanks to Kellogg's right now. So yeah Okay, I feel like we keep getting off topic about what I want to talk about because I want to talk about this the the long-term consequences of considering because I Guess what I am trying to say is yes sometimes Even for a reason like this if you have legit done everything you could and you have legit

Rachel Denning (01:19:42.9)
influenced and persuaded and there's still no hope? Yeah, I would consider divorce at that point. I legit would. Despite the fact that, your life would be more complicated because now you're dealing with an ex-spouse and a new spouse. And even though I said, yeah, it's hard to someone else. Like, if we ever got divorced or you died or something, I would not be looking for another spouse because I pretty much just would feel hopeless about that. There would just be no chance that I would find someone better than you.

So I would give up hope. But that doesn't mean that there's not good people in the world that maybe is better than what you're currently in. I don't know all the scenarios. Only you're going to know that. And so mentally, you need to ask yourself those questions and walk through those. Like, could I actually find someone better? Could I actually? Could I actually? Have I evolved enough? Have I grown enough that, yes, I am legit in another class, quote unquote, class right now. I could find someone better. I know people that are better. That's a different scenario.

right? And maybe that's the case for you. I used to think like Tony Robbins, you know, he's been divorced and got remarried. I truly think in a situation like that, he outgrew his spouse because he was someone he married young and whatnot and he outgrew her and then needed, you know, needed to get divorced and then married someone else. There are situations like that where that is going to be the case, but only you're actually going to know that.

But you also need... It's hard to know that. it's hard. It's really hard. Because you also need to be aware that the greater probability, at least in most cases, is that it is going to be a lot harder to find someone. And very few people are chasing greatness. And you still have to deal with the ex-spouse. That's not going away. And then a new spouse. And then new spouse. Unless you... you... And a blended family. And then, you know... Unless really truly are at this super high level and you could find somebody at a super high level...

After the honeymoon phase is over, you're going to be back to the same scenario. And so in a case like that, OK, do you, I still don't believe that you give up the chasing the personal development. You have to do that. But you may just have to compromise on a lot of things. You may just have to be, as you continue to work on developing yourself, your influencing skills, your diplomacy skills, you're just going to say, OK, you know, this.

Rachel Denning (01:22:10.954)
And the reason I'm having you walk through this process of divorce mentally so that you realize you are making a conscious decision to stay and as a result, it's like the old famous cliche saying, choose your spouse. great. I'm killing it. Love your spouse. Choose your spouse. You'll get there. Keep going. Choose your love and love your choice. you.

Choose your love and love your choice. And what that means is... understandably hard though because... I it is. I look at our society sometimes and I'm like, how are we even allowed to choose a spouse in our early 20s? then think... Without the guidance of parents that This will be good for the next 80 years. Are you kidding me? You can't even think straight when your brain's not even fully developed and you're picking a spouse you're supposed to have for the rest of your life. Right.

Which is in one way why arranged marriages are a positive thing. Our kids have told us sometimes they're like, I think we should do arranged marriages. I want you guys to have input on who I'm going to be marrying. But I guess what I'm saying though is if you mentally walk through the process of divorcing your spouse and everything that would include, and then as a result you decide,

Okay, I'm not gonna do that because it's too much heartache, it's too much pain, not even to mention the kids. And then trying to be a single mother, which is, I recently saw on Instagram this reel that I thought was great, because it was by this hippie looking woman, and that's not derogatory if you're hippie looking, who was giving some sort of summit or speech and she's like, do you want to know the truth? Because you guys aren't gonna like it. Being a single mom doesn't work. She's like,

The best way for a woman to be a great mother is to have the support of a spouse. Because when you are drained, you get refilled from the spouse, and then you have something to give to the children. Without that, the children are taking that burden, and they just can't handle it. You need support. So that's the truth of the matter. And yeah, if you're in a marriage where you're not getting that, then in a way, you are a single mom already.

Rachel Denning (01:24:31.018)
Except like even this one this husband is providing yeah, like which is given her the bandwidth to pursue personal development for ten years Yes, she was out just trying to survive financially or whatever So even in a case like that you you might decide purely for that reason alone I don't have to work because he does it's worth it for you and you might think that that's kind of selfish or Pragmatic or logical and not romantic, but okay

It's still better than providing for yourself in some cases. And we're not saying that you have to settle for a mediocre marriage either. Well, I would say keep pursuing. Isn't that what we're saying? Well, I get. Yeah, I get what you're saying. But in a way, you're what you're going to still keep pursuing is improvement and change and other ways to make it. Right. to what you want. We're not saying you should ever give up on that per se. Yeah, because, know.

Part of what she said is, well, do I just expect this for the next 30 years? And the truth is, you won't get the same for the next 30 years. It will either actually get worse or it will get better. And maybe it will get worse. And then, that's when you decide we divorce. Or it will get better. Even if it's not as good as you would want it to be, it's still going to be better than it is now. It's one or the other. That's what will happen. So part of that, too, is deciding how much it's worth it for you to.

quote unquote, endure to see what happens as you continue to continue to grow and improve, continue to improve your diplomacy and influence skills, continue to try everything, because that's still part of it. Because the thing is, know, yeah, you feel like you're at the end of your rope, but the truth is human beings have a huge capacity for

This sounds terrible for suffering. And so there's actually always more you can endure. Now, that's not necessarily an exciting prospect. Or even a recommended one. Or a recommended prospect. But I guess what I'm saying is you have to weigh your options. Because if you get divorced, like we're saying, you're not necessarily going to be now free of suffering. That's still going to be suffering.

Rachel Denning (01:26:56.857)
You're going to suffer.

Suffering is involved. you can, I think the way Jordan Pearson words it is, the way you approach suffering determines whether or not it is hell or just suffering. Because you can either have suffering or you can turn it into hell. Be miserable. And be miserable. Right? And that really just depends on how you approach it. And that's, again,

I'm not saying that this is the best case scenario or what you want to hear. But when you find yourself in this situation, it's the reality of what you're facing. And so your best option is to make a choice. And that's why I want to go back to that. Choose your love and love your choice. If you decide, OK, I'm not going to divorce this person. I'm going to stay with them for whatever reason, even if it's financial.

You have chosen your quote unquote love and now your best option is to love your choice. Even if what you love about them is very minimal, as long as you love that, that will add value to your relationship. And you can in the worst of scenarios, you could even choose for a time. So I'm going to, okay, well, I'm I'm going to stay in for another three years. Yeah. Or another year or another five years. Right. Like, and just, I'm going to just, I'm going to go all out.

everything I can for the next three years to try to make this significantly better. And if at that point nothing has changed and I still have progressively grown and progressed then then yeah then then I come back to that decision. Well and I think maybe that's an aspect you also have to include in this scenario because again if you decide that personal development is

Rachel Denning (01:28:55.798)
Necessary for you for the reasons we laid out because what's the alternative besides spiritual death? And you let your partner know and you let them know about what you're Then that helps them to understand where you're at but that you want what you want is this relationship with you you want to be with them and people are afraid of

killing the marriage or killing the relationship, but if that's the natural result of pursuing growth, then in some ways...

Rachel Denning (01:29:39.391)
I hate to say it was meant to be or something because that sounds fatalistic, you know if the only way for the marriage to survive is you committing spiritual suicide, that's not a relationship you should be in long term. Because that's not healthy. That's not healthy for you. And so the you know either there does there's two options either the relationship does break or change occurs.

But the only thing people don't realize is the only way that usually happens is when there is a breaking point. You do have to reach that breaking point. And so the fact that you feel like it's tearing the relationship apart is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a natural consequence of what's occurring.

The other thing I was going to mention too, because we have met people and have talked to people where they have told us, I knew when I married my spouse it was the wrong decision. And I think in a scenario like that, again, you have to walk through it. But sometimes it's like, well, if you did make a wrong choice, then yeah, maybe And it's been confirmed again and again and again. And there's not much you can do then. There are marriages that just won't. Shouldn't have happened. They shouldn't have happened, or they won't last.

In that case, but I think I think that can be rare if we'll really lean into it in a massive way and and make the changes do Genuinely do everything to do small things and you might think it's not enough or it's not good enough It's not big enough. But as long as there's some willingness there, I think that there's some hope, right? One thing I love to do for myself is to ask like hey would this would this hold up in court?

It's a it's a gut check. It's a reality check for me because I get thinking like why I've done so much I've progressed so much and I'm the only one that does anything around here. I'm like wait a minute would that hold up in court? We put video surveillance on everything and there was a jury watching Would they say yeah? It's whoa wait a minute like total reality check on that

Rachel Denning (01:31:54.262)
And if it wouldn't, you know, if my movie was a silent film where all the talking I do doesn't hold up and it's a silent film and other people are watching or even a court watching, would it hold up? Is it that obvious? I think especially because going back to the comment you made about blind spots and having done everything you can that, and I think about that too for me, if someone were to watch this film,

Would they be then saying, yeah, she's definitely the problem. And again, I don't know the person who sent this message, and I'm not saying that per se. But if your life was being videoed, if they were watching every interaction and listening to every conversation you had with your spouse, who would they think was to blame?

Or at least are you a contributing factor to your own problems? least. At the very least would they say, well that thing you said there, that definitely wasn't helpful. that, thing you did. And if there was some magical way to see the past and be like, you've been doing this pattern for years. For the last 10 years you've been saying this thing. No wonder he's not responsive.

Or you've been doing this thing or not doing this things like and and this goes both ways, right? I'm sure there would be plenty of things or to be like, yeah Well, look what he's doing. No wonder she does that no wonder she complains exactly But the point is you're right until and this isn't like that. have to be perfect Right because no none of us are perfect but until you know that at least If other people were to view this situation, they would say, okay. Yeah, I see that you are

doing everything you You're being as patient as you can. You're being as tactful, as diplomatic as possible, and it's still not working. Guilty as charged. In my mind's eye, I can see somebody though sitting around with their girlfriends or the guy sitting around with his buddies complaining about his spouse. It's not fair at all. That's I'm Yeah, exactly. You've got to have, and ideally, a very well-trained...

Rachel Denning (01:34:11.822)
intellectual jury that understands human psychology and behavior can see things clearly not just your friends you get together with to complain about your spouse and they're like no I told them and they they are totally on my side they get it and like yeah no they don't right and so there's that scenario again like at a minimum and I'm being completely sincere here I hear stories like this and I want to help

with all my heart, I want to help. I grew up in a broken family scenario. My dad left when I was young. Stepdads came and went. I want to help. I want to save families. And I'm really, really good at what I do. And I can get into understanding what's going on. And I've yet to meet a person that is just 100 % unwilling and that

that if they are just like, yeah, I'm just unwilling, give me a good answer why. It's not happened with the thousands and thousands of people I've worked with and talked to. It just doesn't happen. You've got to get in and find the problem and then hold the problem in front of them and say, here's your problem. Do you acknowledge that? Yeah, that's my problem. Are you willing to work on it? Here's what you can do. You have the tools. The ball's in your court. Are you willing? Yeah.

I do have to add to that though because you know you're saying you haven't met a person but at the same time we have met people and we've talked to people that

Rachel Denning (01:35:51.352)
They just, one, they're harder to reach. Like they just have more of a wall or the resistance there. So they're much harder to reach and they have a lot more unwillingness. For whatever reason, like there is an aspect to human psychology where some people just, they fight it. I don't know why, you know? Even that's something I feel like we're still trying to figure out.

I guess that's where I know exactly what you're talking about, maybe even some of the who's that you're talking about. In a scenario like this, where it gets to such a point, so if the marriage is on the line, it's like no, we're putting down some ultimatums, we're having some hard talks and we're gonna have the hard, uncomfortable, honest talk. There's no avoidance here, I don't wanna talk about it, I'm gonna resist it. It's like we're way beyond all of that.

We're sitting down face to face, eye to eye, and we're going to get some honest answers because there's no other option. Yes, but there are some people who won't even do that, I guess. Yeah, you're right. But those are extremely rare. In my experience, they're extremely rare, especially when you put down a hard ultimatum of like, this changes or it ends.

And I don't know that this, this in this particular situation that it's to that yet. I don't think so. I think there's a lot more that can be done. But when it gets to that point, it's like, Hey, either things change or it ends. And, and I guess that's what I'm saying that because that's where, that's where it would be for me. And I think it'd be the same for you. If it ever got to that point and neither one of us was willing to address the issues and make the changes, then I guarantee the other one would say, okay, well there, here's a line right here.

Either it changes or it ends. I think that's a good thing. I think it's a powerful thing. I guess I'm just throwing this out here because I'm thinking. And this this might be something that simply is. In the outskirts of human behavior. But maybe it needs to be thrown out there because sometimes people don't fully realize who they're married to. They don't fully understand because one thing we have learned.

Rachel Denning (01:38:05.184)
is that even though you can look at a human and think you understand them, human brains can be so different. this is not to be derogatory or whatever. Some people's brains just do not work the same. And so there are some... We might say they're not really high functioning. To nobody's fault, it's just they're not high functioning. And so there are some people who you might think...

you're married to whatever, you know, the certain person, but they just are not comprehending the world in the same way that you comprehend the world. That can be like a misunderstanding if a brain has a limiting, they have a limiter on it. And we've learned about that from Dr. Amon and other people. are certain people who just like, the right and left hemispheres don't connect fully, and so they can't understand certain concepts or, you know.

mix those concepts. So I guess I'm just throwing it out there that sometimes we have to take that into consideration. Like maybe we are married to someone who just does not get it in the Yeah. In the way you get the world. Right. Which isn't necessarily bad. just means that you may never be compatible because their brain just works completely different. Which can also come into play in extreme situations. know, the drugs or whatever. Like especially if it messes with the brain.

where you're just not dealing with someone who can function at the level you can function at. Yeah, they may not have the cognitive ability or cognitive capacity to be where you would like to be. Yeah. That's an important factor. So again, just something to consider in the entire spectrum of considerations here as you're thinking about this and walking through. But again, I guess just to close.

As we've rambled all over the place and gone down all kinds of paths, but it's been very funny and I think insightful and helpful for a lot of people in different ways in different scenarios. Right. The point is be willing to walk down some of these paths mentally because it's going to help you understand where you're at and what you're willing to do for what it is you believe in. You know, if you truly believe in the path you're pursuing.

Rachel Denning (01:40:35.558)
And again, bringing up the whole point you mentioned about, think pursuing a life of greatness is just glamorous. It's not. Often a life of greatness produces suffering simply because you are pursuing greatness. That's a part of it. And I think we've definitely experienced a lot of that. mean, if anyone knows our story, you know how many times we've experienced suffering, often self-induced, because we were pursuing this path, this dream life.

It does have this effect where things either fall into place or they fall out of your life. And sometimes that includes relationships, sometimes even close relationships. But then to, and some people are, they are willing to sacrifice that. They're willing to sacrifice the pursuit of their soul development in order to.

appease others or to keep the peace or whatever. And I get that that's valuable and maybe that is the right course for you. I'm not going to say it's not. That might be more valuable for you. You might think that maintaining your family unit is more important. And I get that that's important. That's definitely a valid consideration. But ultimately,

I think the only way to not die spiritually is for us to be true to...

soul, our heart. To pursue that even if it results in... Because again, especially in a case like this, it's not like you're choosing between suffering and not suffering, you know? You're already experiencing suffering.

Rachel Denning (01:42:27.506)
continuing to pursue greatness, not pursuing it isn't going to eliminate your suffering. And nor will a divorce. And nor will divorce. Yeah. So you just have to realize unfortunately that this is sounding really depressing. Suffering is a part of life. But we can appease it. But we can well and we can approach it with

Rachel Denning (01:42:53.422)
and

What's the word I want to use? Like the way we approach it is going to change it into something that becomes beneficial for us as opposed to suffering just for suffering. Or turning it into hell, like we talked about before. We have to pay a price. There's a price for everything. And we can the price in growth. Like there's a price to be paid in growth and in becoming your best self. I would way rather pay that price than paying the price along the road of just

coasting and enduring and suffering. And we're sitting here talking about suffering like our lives are miserable and suffering. We live an absolutely extraordinary life. so happy and so joyful. And we look at the suffering we endure as a privilege and a joy because we live such a phenomenal life and have such an extraordinary family and everything. So it's not this miserable suffering of like, was us? We hate our existence. It's the opposite. We love our life.

But there's some suffering you choose and then some suffering you just get when you're not chasing greatness. Right. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that because I have a good imagination, I know that the suffering I would feel if you are not on board with me or vice versa is a whole nother level. Yep. Same. But I guess I'm also trying to say that.

in this hypothetical situation, if you gave up pursuing your growth path in order to keep peace in the marriage, it doesn't mean you're going to have the marriage you want. That's the other thing. You're not going to now suddenly, because you stopped pursuing the greatness, that now he's going to be everything you've ever wanted, or you're going to not have any friction. There's still going to be disagreements. It doesn't go away. Ultimately, that's what I'm trying to say. It doesn't go away.

Rachel Denning (01:44:55.298)
These things don't go away. The only way they go away, the obstacle is the way. Like how many times have we said that? The obstacle is the way. The way to get rid of that is to move through the obstacle, not by avoiding it or stopping the pursuit. If you say, there's an obstacle there, guess I won't keep moving forward, that doesn't remove the obstacle. The obstacle is still there. So everything you're discussing, everything you're saying, discouragement, dissatisfaction,

All of these feelings, they don't disappear just because you decide to stop pursuing growth. It doesn't work like that. They're still gonna be there. The only way they disappear is when you resolve the issue. Now, and that's what I'm saying, that's why this is difficult topic because resolution is challenging in a situation like this. It's not easy. But resolution is ultimately the only solution. Regardless of how difficult it might be.

It doesn't go away. It doesn't just disappear because you decide to Stop. Right. There's there's one more thing that we haven't addressed yet that I think is super relevant and important. And it's making sure that the needs of the other person are being met. Because I cannot assume that all the low hanging fruit has been addressed and all the options have.

been pursued that I've done everything until I can absolutely guarantee that all of my spouse's needs are being met because a human being will not function properly and well unless all their needs are being met. in this case, if Rachel was acting off my first thing I'm going to say like, her needs being met?

Because if they're not, no wonder she's acting off. No wonder she's not doing pursuing greatness or chasing development and doing all those things. Like, how could she if her needs aren't being met? So one of the very first things I'm going to do, especially because I want to be pursuing personal development, is I'm going to say, how can I better meet her needs? So I'm going to do, in my personal growth journey, I'm going to do everything in my power to meet your needs. Then if I know for sure your needs are being met,

Rachel Denning (01:47:22.176)
and you feel good.

And then at that point, you're not wanting to grow or develop, OK, something's really off. That's weird. Something's off. In most cases, there's a lot of unmet needs. Well, and I think especially because it's a two-way street, if her needs are not being met, which clearly they aren't, then it's most likely 100 % his needs are not being met either. Yep, exactly. Because that's where most conflict in marriage occurs. And maybe this is a good.

I'm glad you brought this up. This is a good place to end because it feels a little more hopeful than where I was going with suffering and enduring. That's most often what happens. When people are having conflict in their marriage, it's because needs are not being met. Because you're right. When needs are being met, all people are more open to suggestion, influence, persuasion. Even feeling the upward reach. Yeah.

When they feel like all their needs are met and they feel good, they're like, yeah, I want to be better. Well, it comes back to the entire Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, the top of the pyramid is self-actualization. And that doesn't happen, which to me is the tip of the upward reach, right? The thing we're talking about, wanting to pursue personal growth and development. That doesn't happen until the four other levels of the pyramid occur, starting with food, water.

shelter shelter you know all the basics safety security connection until those things happen he's just eating junk food he has a healthy diet here so like his brain isn't functioning clearly because he's eating junk food and fast food and processed foods yeah that might be the factor and and my approach to that is like maybe i can't change it maybe i can't stop what he eats but at the very least maybe i'll stay preparing more meals

Rachel Denning (01:49:19.79)
I'll start making breakfast or dinner. Because then I know at least you're getting one healthy meal a day. Things like that, how you start having change or influence. But yeah, I I know that that is a huge.

element there that if those basic needs are not being met, people are not open to growth and personal development because how can they be? Right, exactly. They literally can't even consider that because they're like, I'm just trying to survive here. They feel like they're in some sort of survival mode. Exactly. Same for the lady who asked the questions. Like her needs aren't being met. Right. And so even she's trying to be an influencer, but she's like drawing from an empty well. Right.

And so the way you start right there is just by lovingly expressing this desire like I would love it. It means the world to me. And I feel loved and cared for when you do this thing. It's so good. It just fills me. And what can I do for you? Where do you feel like I could do something different to meet your needs? And just that one step of reciprocation and meeting needs, then you both start feeling better. And then you have more days when you wake up, you're like, this feels good.

And then you can meet more needs and pursue more growth and have more influence and impact. Yeah. Because those those needs are being reciprocated and met. And it's a beautiful, good feeling. And ultimately, in the ideal scenario, your needs are being met. My needs are being met. And so we both are like, well, how can we do more for each other and more for ourselves and more for our kids? And how can we keep leveling up? How can we make our life even better than it already is? Because we wake up every day and we feel good. And that makes.

an absolutely extraordinary marriage and family life. And so we start right there of like this meeting each other's basic needs and desires. And then feeling good makes it that much easier to pursue being good and developing the skills we need to seriously level up.

Rachel Denning (01:51:28.664)
That was a lot and heavy, but super important. I these relationships matter more. Well, the marriage relationship is the most important relationship. It's the number one. And because it is, I know we would all love to live in bliss and happiness and joy the entire length of the marriage relationship. But ultimately, I guess what matters is.

working on it. It's the most important work we can do and it is work. Especially in a scenario like this, it is work. And so if you mentally walk through this scenario we've described, if you decide, well if you decide to get divorced that's another course, but if you decide to stay married then that becomes your work. This is your career. You make a career out of making the marriage the best you can. And it's the most important work you'll do. Yeah. Yep. I love it.

Okay, love you guys. Thanks for listening. Reach upward.