#289 A WARNING for Good Moms: Doing This Will Backfire!

Rachel Denning (00:03.542)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your hosts, Greg and Rachel Denning. And I am very excited to talk about this topic today because it's so common, so relevant, and because it's so difficult. This is going to be challenging to articulate it in a way that's not offensive or hurtful.

Yes. And that it can be understood because it's often and easily misunderstood. Because in the nuances of parenting and trying to get it right, we're striving to be good people and good parents. And we're doing the best we know how.

But when we bump up against the limitations of our skill set and our knowledge base in parenting. Which we don't, we often don't realize that that's what's happening. Right. That's an unconscious thing. Right, so as parents we're often unaware that we've reached a limitation and so we're like well. that's what's contributing to our problems. Yes, exactly. Or causing them. we are thinking, well notice that I'm just.

almost unconsciously, subconsciously unaware, like I'm just doing this to try to get the outcome I want. And that very thing, ironically, is what causes the problem. Or eventually causes a very huge long-term problem, even though we might get a reaction in the moment. We might get the short-term result, but we don't realize we're contributing to a long-term problem. And you used a word there that I think is...

important and that's nuance and I really feel that at least for me in my parenting journey the biggest results I've seen have come from the nuances like it's something that almost from the outside you wouldn't really notice that big of a difference and yet it's those little nuances of difference that that create completely different outcomes and so it seems so

Rachel Denning (02:18.346)
sometimes imperceptible, and I think that that's true. It's often imperceptible, but there's these slight nuances of differences in our attitudes, in our behavior, in the energy that we're bringing to the interaction with our child, to all of these things that make the biggest difference, but they seem so insignificant or so maybe unimportant or...

I don't know. inconsequential. Yeah, they seem inconsequential. I had a couple of coaching sessions just this week around this very thing. It was so subtle. I'm like, hey, wait, that little mindset right there, that little belief, know, I'm like, to it with a client, I'm like, you keep saying that thing. And whenever you talk about it, can sense the energy you're bringing. Like, that little thing right there is what's causing the riff in your relationships because...

The other person in your relationship senses that and has an emotional mental emotional reaction to it. And that's the cause of the problem. So it's it's a degree and we might we might squawk over degrees. might be cynical or skeptical of your come on. You're you're talking about one little degree and in the immediate you won't sense it. But go down the road 10 years and a one degree shift right now will make a massive

It's story about the ship or the train that you know if it's off or the airplane you're like not a big deal, but you multiply that by thousands of miles or kilometers and suddenly now that is a big difference and that and that is a good analogy of what we're talking about that sometimes especially in the moment or with the immediate outcomes you're trying to get you're like it's not that big of a deal but multiply that by years by decades

now you've got a giant rift, specifically we're talking about in your relationships because I think that that's where those nuances matter the most in the type of relationship you have with your spouse or with your child that over time becomes a gigantic gap because you use strategies that get you the short-term results but are not building those long-term outcomes that you're looking for. Exactly. So I'm looking at this map behind you.

Rachel Denning (04:41.378)
And if we were to leave from Maine, a shift in degrees could, I mean, changes the trajectory. you end up in Europe or somewhere along the coast of Africa or in South America. Yeah. And think of the vast difference there of the outcomes. And that's what we see in parenting all the time. But it plays out over years and decades. So.

specifically today we want to talk about something we have observed that occurs generally and we're talking about we're saying good moms on purpose because these are moms that are good moms and they they have good hearts and they have good like they're not abusive horrible moms right you know because those definitely exist as well so we're talking about people who are good parents. They're good people and good parents that want good outcomes. Exactly.

But we want to talk about the differences in nuances that bring different outcomes. it's almost, and the reason why we want to bring it up is because it's, they're trying to get specific outcomes, but the things that they are doing are actually producing the outcomes they don't want. Now, but also in the future. And I think because you and I have worked with

people for so long and with parents for so long and like we just geek out about human psychology and all that. Like We are able to see, even before they can I think, see, this that you're doing right here, it's gonna lead to that. Like you always talk about the train wreck at the end. We're like, I know where this goes. This goes to this kind of outcome. And that doesn't mean it always goes there, but that's the projection, right? And- Those are the probabilities. The probabilities, right, statistics.

But our point is, is that when you learn to identify these things and to make those small shifts, those small changes, then you can actually get those outcomes that you want. And I think the biggest emphasis I want to make here is it doesn't have to be that hard. It doesn't have to be as hard as you are making it. And one of the things that we're going to talk a lot about today is like letting go. Stop trying to control.

Rachel Denning (07:07.326)
everything and the irony is the less you try to control the more this doesn't make sense but the more better outcomes are gonna get right the more better i like that just remember my kids today we're talking about more better outcomes you know but you're actually increasing and and this is why it's so challenging to do this is such a difficult concept because it seems counterintuitive

It seems like to go against everything you want. But when you stop trying to control and you let go of it and then use gentle influence, the more likely you are to get the outcome you want. The more you try to control or force the outcome, the less likely you are to actually achieve it. So powerful. We're also going to emphasize that because a lot of people think when we talk about letting go of control that that means

then of course just anything goes and there's no structure, there's no framework. And I think that that's an important distinction because there is actually a very clear framework. You're working within very specific boundaries. so... Because the good mom right now, her mind's like, what? No, if I just let my kids do what they want, they're going to eat donuts all day and play video games. They won't do anything. And you're like, is where... Yeah, you're right. We have to set up the boundaries.

because you're like, well no, there are no donuts in the house, period. And there are no video game consoles either because everyone who's listened to this has already thought about and read, you know, like the anxious generation, we've seen the research, and so we have removed consoles from our homes and families because the research is absolutely crystal clear that it's not good, it's not positive. And so, okay, and I want to come up with a good analogy for this.

to help people understand because we've also, and we talked a little bit about this before in one of our episodes, how people have said to us, especially people who've come to stay with us, that because of the way we live our life and the high expectations we have and all of this, they assumed that we were very strict, very controlling, very like, you know, everything is military-like, you know, that was their assumption of what it would be like to to.

Rachel Denning (09:32.244)
Stay with us. Because we have crazy high standards. Right. And so they assumed like this probably isn't even going to be very fun to be around the Denny's. We've had people say that. Like we'll endure it for our time guys. Like it's going to be pretty strict around here. But then the reality is that there's a lot of freedom, a lot of fun, a lot of craziness, a lot of chaos. And so, you know, in fact, was our son-in-law who said that you guys are simultaneously very...

Intense and very chill. So when you interact with us, you know in our own home, we're very chill but it's almost like I guess the best people Okay, just because the analogy came to me and this actually came from a friend of ours who's staying here because we did the to do prey training and It was you know always ready asset training and part of the simulation that we did at the end was they had to

climb up this hill to a fort at the top and they had to carry a rock up there and you know but he said that when he was at the top of the at the fort he was thinking about because he was looking at this wall that was there and it had this archway and it used to have a drawbridge and a moat and he said he imagined and he realized that he needed to be more

protective about what he allowed in that doorway like this is my fortress and I cannot allow these certain things in and so right now that just came to me that that's a good image inside the fort We're fun. It's fun. It's crazy. There's lots of freedom our kids can do whatever they want, but we are very Strict and deliberate and deliberate about the walls of that fort and what is allowed within that fort and so that's kind of the framework of

I want to approach this is that if you try to be controlling in the fort if you're like Don't eat this don't do that get up now go to sleep now this and that never you're literally controlling every aspect of your children's life That's when you produce the outcomes you don't want but if you create a fort with strong walls And you're very strict about what comes in those walls Then you can have all kinds of freedom within and your children will learn to manage themselves direct themselves because

Rachel Denning (11:53.26)
They have freedom within boundaries. And they love it. And they love it. And even people who come stay with us, youth who come stay with us for extended amounts of time or other people, they love the freedom and the autonomy, the independence, the environment where they feel like, I can make my own choices here and I can be a good person and an independent person and I can lead my life. And every human being wants to lead their own life.

Every child, starting at two or three years old, wants to be the director of their own lives. Like it is born in us. And as soon as you start fighting with the little ones, we were having a conversation about this the other day, when you start fighting with the little ones, even at two or three, that's what produces what people call the terrible twos or terrible threes or whatever. It's because they now have the sense of like, no, I am an individual. I want to direct my own life. If you understand child...

Psychology and child development, you know before that when children are small they it's almost like they literally have no distinction of separation between Them and their mother, right? They almost feel like they're one unit and that makes sense because they were literally inside of you, right? And so it takes them time to realize I'm actually separate from my mother and yet it's also a scary process of like wait a second. I'm separate from my mother, you know, that's also terrifying and

empowering at the same time. And so during those years especially, it's so critical for them to be able to exert that independence, but then also to become come back to you and feel like, okay, you're still here. You still love me. I'm still safe. You know, you are my support. You are my source of life, you know, and so that's a very important developmental age. And you're right. That's why, you know, we often have what's termed the terrible twos or terrible threes and really they don't have to be.

because they're learning to exert their independence. And as long as we respect that. We as good parents are trying to help them. And so we control. And when we try to control, that creates the problems, whether it's in toddlers or teens. Yeah. And you see this, it's like a fundamental, like the toddler is trying to walk through this little independence, autonomy phase. And it's so adorable because they need their parents so desperately. But they're like, I can do this myself.

Rachel Denning (14:17.59)
Like whether it's they're trying to tie their shoes or go down the stairs or whatever. You know, your story about Aaliyah just like, no, I'm going to walk. And she kept falling down and kept going, I'm going to walk. They want that. And yet they can't even walk. They're like, I'll do it myself. And they can't do it. And teens are the same way. Just let me be frail. Do whatever I want. You're like, if I let you walk out the door, you'll be dead in a couple of days because you don't have the skill set and the knowledge to figure it out yet. But you desperately want the independence.

And so the super powerful and the nuance is important here because as you and I are literally saying don't control your kids. We're also simultaneously saying you'd better control your environment. Yes. So in an example like there's absolutely no junk food and garbage and any toxins allowed in our home. There's no video games allowed. There's no porn. I mean it is just strictly not allowed in our home period. And people hear that. It's just very controlling.

Like it's the opposite. You guys are hypocrites because you're saying you don't control but then you control. And I guess we need to really clarify this. Like what's in the home? like no go, no. There's only a few things. of the fortress. Yeah, there's very few things. And the walls of the fortress are solid and what comes through that gate? Yeah. Absolutely not allowed. Every single thing through that gate is intentional. But what it does and hopefully this analogy can help parents picture this.

is it provides this safe environment where our children are allowed complete freedom. And the reason why that's so important, because many of you might say, but that's not accurate, because then they'll go into the world and blah, blah, But the reason why it's important is because if we use the fitness analogy, if you use your muscles, if you exercise, they get stronger. And as our children exercise the muscles of

freedom, the muscles of decision making, the muscles of leading their own lives within this safe fortress, then as they grow up, those muscles get stronger and then they're able to use them more...uh...segaciously, you know, like wisely, they're able to use them in out in the real world.

Rachel Denning (16:44.268)
But they have an advantage because what we often see... It's a greenhouse effect. Yeah. What we often see is parents who control every aspect of their children's life, partly because the environment is not... No, not partly, because the environment is not controlled. They have all of these things in their environment. And so they can't, quote unquote, can't allow their children to practice freedom because obviously they'll make good choices. It's like saying, you know...

Well, I want my children to make healthy choices, but all I have available for them to eat is cookies and Oreos and so every day I have to fight with my kid to not just consume that. rather than saying, no, you get to decide. You can decide when you eat and where you eat and what you eat. Our children get to do that. But that's because we have controlled the environment. And so I don't feel worried about their choices. Yeah, maybe I would prefer that they didn't eat peaches and cream for breakfast and they ate eggs and bacon instead, right? But that's.

almost insignificant at that point, you know what mean? Because either one's a great choice. So it's things like that. But what happens is they begin to practice those muscles from a very young age of, I get to decide what I'm going to wear. And I get to decide when I'm going to eat and what I'm going to eat. And I get to decide when I'm going to do my studies and where I'm going to do my studies and how I'm going to do my studies. They're constantly making decisions, hundreds and thousands of decisions. So by the time they become a teenager,

They have a lot of practice making decisions, and now they have the ability to make better decisions. Where what we see too often, and I know you want to add to this, but I'm talking, is parents who control every aspect, and then by the time their kids are teenagers and they're getting ready to leave the house and make their own decisions, they have no decision-making muscle. They have not been allowed to practice. Because their moms and dads, but very often moms,

literally telling them every single day when to get up, what to eat, what to wear, what to put on, where to go, when to do it, when to do your homework, come back, do this, go to bed. Like they're controlling the whole thing. What that looks like in reality is just constant battles. Constant battles. Just constant battles. Non-stop battles. Contention, fighting, enmity. It's just just constantly at odds.

Rachel Denning (19:02.178)
with each other every single day. do that, no don't do that. Just stop doing this. Do this. that's exhausting. It's exhausting for both parent and child. And yet the mom and dads do this as well. But it's just like I'm a good person trying to be a good parent. Trying to produce good outcomes. kids. And the only, know, I guess I think most of them don't.

Cognitively really stop and think through it They just think of this is what this is what has to be done in order to produce the outcome control control control control control Even though they would not necessarily use that wording right they don't necessarily think they're controlling their children's lives But I have to direct I have to manage because of the goodness of their heart because of the desire for the good and high outcomes they have they have they think that The only way they can do that is by exerting this effort

this amount of control over their lives. And we get it, right? Because we started on that path as well. And we see that, well, if I just stop controlling, then the kid's just going to go. And they make choices. If I don't keep a hold of them, as soon as I let go, they're going to run into trouble. Right. Right. And we picture the child running into the street. If I don't keep a hold of them, as soon as I let go, they're going run the street.

But what we're saying is, and we've proven it with our own children, and we've proven it with many, many families we've helped, all my clients, we've proven this model. It works. And again, you gotta think long-term outcomes. What do I want? I want my children to become adults who make good choices on their own, whether I'm there or not, whether anybody's there or not. What matters most is what kind of decisions do they make when no one's watching? That's what matters.

And what happens with this control fight method that most people use is that the kid only makes good decisions when somebody's watching, they're afraid of getting caught or when you're there. As soon as you look away or as soon as you go away, man, they run to it. And so we want a different outcome. We want a kid. And so the method works. And so you have to trust it. And as you're giving, you set up the fortress. I love that. You set up the fortress.

Rachel Denning (21:29.046)
You allow independence and you teach. This requires you to be a teacher. Like this will not work if we are not teaching. Because over time, the child has to understand why the framework's there and we're constantly teaching them about those choices so that when they're old enough in their mid to late teens, when their brain is literally now just becoming capable of abstract ideas and we're constantly teaching that, they're like...

okay, I totally get it. I've been practicing, you've been telling me this. Now I get it. Now it's my own. Like, okay, I totally want to eat healthy because this is the outcome I want. I totally want to exercise and make good choices. I want to be around good people. I want to listen to good music. I want to have good input from media. I get it now because, and here's all the reasons why, because we've been teaching them and all those...

all the scaffolding, all the framework starts to together in their brains and they're like, boom, got it. And then by the time they're 15, 16, 17 and on, in our family, we don't even have to like even really even talk about anymore. Like we've taught them, we've allowed them to practice making decisions inside the fortress and we've constantly been exposing them to the outside world. So we're not sheltering them, we're not hiding all the evil.

Like we take them out there and we talk about the evil and we show them this is the reality. So they live in the fortress, we travel constantly outside the fortress, and so you get inside and out. Well, I think- And then they make great decisions on their think another important distinction too is that in this case, the fortress is not location dependent, right? We take the fortress with us, essentially. So the fortress isn't-

a specific location, it's a way of being. And it definitely can be a specific location because of course if you're talking about your house, yeah you want to make your house that fortress. You want to have it safeguarded from all of those...

Rachel Denning (23:37.602)
Quote-unquote bad things or the things that you don't want in your life But we've proven the model the house is wherever we are landing any Airbnb in the planet there there are additional challenges because you know sometimes you and I stayed at a place just recently and of course as soon as we got there this was just the two of us but on the counter they had cereal and All these things that we don't eat all this garbage so we come in

We face those things as we travel, we use those as opportunities to have the conversations, right? Not to make a battle, because we'll even, you if we show up and our kids are there and they want the animal cookies, we'll let them eat them, but then we have another conversation about food and why seed oils are bad for you and blah, blah, whatever, and unfortunately, animal crackers have seed oils in them and we should learn to make our own or whatever.

Like it's an opportunity for a discussion rather than an aspect of control of like, no, there's animal cookies. I better, you know, like I never do that. I'm like, no, great, here's an opportunity to have another conversation. But one of the other things I wanted to discuss because I think that this is important to understand too because you mentioned a little bit ago that we're worried about letting go of that control because our kids are going to XYZ. Essentially, make a mistake, make poor choices.

Do the thing we don't want them to do. And I feel the need to emphasize that yes, that is going to happen. And in fact, yes, that is what you want to happen. You want your children to make bad decisions while they're two, three, five, seven, nine, right? As opposed...

to controlling every aspect of their life and doing all the right things. That's inside the fortress. the quote bad decisions are like really small. It's almost like playing in a simulation where they're making quote bad decisions inside a safe environment. There's no catastrophic outcome. That's the point I'm getting at. You want them to do that and they practice building their decision making muscles.

Rachel Denning (25:46.739)
so that as they get older

If they wait until they get older to make those mistakes for the first time, know, for some that's once they move out, they go to college. At 18, 19, 20, they're making decisions that are have horrendous consequences. And those are the same type of decisions that they were never allowed to make when they were young. And so now they're doing it and getting horrible outcomes. They're staying up till 2 a.m. They're living on Mountain Dew, you know, because they were never allowed to direct their own lives. They were never allowed to decide what to eat.

and when to eat. They're always told what they had to do. when I'm talking about... That's where they get into porn addictions and substance abuse, alcohol, horrible relationships. They're like you never let them figure out relationships in a good way and so then they just go out and somebody, some handsome guy comes along or some cute girl and says if you think all of sudden they're in this toxic relationship or just in terrible situations.

Because they literally have no skill about making their own decisions. and what I want to emphasize here is because we might be thinking that when we're talking about making bad decisions, it's like a big deal. It's a big thing. And I'm really actually not. I'm talking about the young child who is allowed to decide whether or not they eat dinner. You know what I mean? All day Those are the little bad decisions I'm talking about. Not that I'm trying to.

quantify that as like good, bad, whatever. But the point is that we want them to learn through experience that if I miss a meal, later on I'm gonna be hungry, hangry, and then I'm gonna maybe fight with my sister, and then I'm gonna, we wanna connect the dots for them. We want to be able to teach them that like, hey look, you decided not to eat, and whenever you don't eat, look how upset you get. And now you're really upset, and you would feel so much better if you had some food.

Rachel Denning (27:46.294)
But they're learning through experience because they chose rather than the controlling model is. But the good mom immediately is thinking, I'm not going to deal with this. I don't want to have to deal with all the fighting and stuff. So I'm going to force my kids to all sit down and all eat. I'm going to sit here and have a battle over what's on their plate so that they're not hungry later. So that's the nuance that, going back to the nuances, that's what I'm talking about. Because it seems very

insignificant in some ways. Like whether my child learns on their own that they need to eat or whether I make them eat because I already know this. Or bedtime. Bedtime is good example them go to bed because I know they need sleep. But that's what I'm trying to say. That's the point. When our children are allowed to make those decisions on their own and then suffer the consequences of having made bad decisions, quote unquote, that's where the real learning takes place.

So then guess what? It's a natural consequence. The kids, you guys, your kids are so smart. Your kids are so intelligent and they want to be happy. They want to be successful. They actually want the same things you want. Yeah. They really truly do. But they want to decide them for themselves because that's human nature. That's the psychology of the human being. They want to feel in charge of making those choices. And when you give them the freedom to make those choices on their own, especially over time,

And especially if you have these conversations of helping them learn those things, of pointing it out. Wow, you were up really late last night, and now look how grumpy you are. If I were you, one, I'd go to bed earlier, or two, if I decide to stay up late, I'm gonna have to work extra hard to have a good attitude because I'm gonna be naturally grumpier. And when our kids would do that, I'm like, hey, looks like you stayed up late. They're like, yeah, what were you doing? I doing this. I'm like, you think it was worth it? Like, you spent a few hours just doing that thing.

man now you're tired. Was that and again I'm not shaming I'm not guilty. I'm like let's say that's it I'm making sure you go to bed tonight. That's it I'm gonna stand here until you're asleep and we're gonna have a big battle at 9 30 about your bedtime. I'm not doing that I'm like hey let's process together was it worth it for you and they're like no. I have rather got some sleep. Like I see I watched the movie with and it was like well what do think like it was actually a

Rachel Denning (30:08.034)
I kind of feel like crap right now because I get enough sleep. go cool so next time that rolls around what do think? Yeah it's not worth it and it's amazing we've watched this with all of our kids. You help them learn how to process it and then they come you're like they'll come and tell you like that was not worth it. I'm not doing that again.

And to be clear, this isn't like a one-time thing. That was often something that would happen. Maybe it happens once or twice. then you go a few months, and then it happens again. So it happens multiple times. But the point is, they are the one learning the lesson, rather than the lesson being imposed on them by the parent. Because that's one of the biggest challenges of parenting, is that, yeah, you're right. We do know more. We have more life experience. But if we simply use that as

opportunity to exert more control over our children, we don't teach them all we get is resentment. It's literally making decisions for them. Right. So like, know better so I'm gonna make this decision for you. That doesn't serve them. And that doesn't help them learn. Yeah. It doesn't help them develop that part of their brain so that they have the ability to learn those lessons and to understand the outcomes of the choices they make.

So I think this is a perfect spot to teach this principle. And I wish there was some way that each of you listening could be here in person and experience this physically. So if I'm standing in front of you and without giving you any warning, without telling you, I just grab your wrist and I start pulling you, what are you gonna do immediately? What's the natural reaction?

What would be your reaction if I just grab your wrist and start pulling? I'm going to elbow you in the face. nice. that's we've been doing combative training. Yes, that's a learned reaction. So now most people would just pull back. mean the immediate natural I'm going to pull back and I'm going to keep resisting. Now through training you're like I'm actually going to throw an elbow. I'm not going to sit here and pull. I'm not going play tug of war. I'm going to throw an elbow in your face which is really awesome. There's a whole other lesson to that. But human beings naturally resist. And so if I grab you and I say Rachel.

Rachel Denning (32:18.272)
my wife we're doing this we're going over here you're just gonna keep resisting resisting and resenting let that sink in everybody as you grab your kid you're like I'm bigger than you I'm stronger than you because I said so I'm the adult I'm the parent whatever that whatever the issue is it could be anything from the clothing they like to wear to

It could be any issue. We have to go to the car now. Pull, pull, pull. I'm telling you what to do. You do it. I say so. We're all doing it at this time. We're all doing it. I don't care what you're doing. You stop that and there's no buy-in. There's no like I'm telling you. So as long as you pull, they pull back. Please everybody listening like let that sink into your soul. As long as you are pulling or pushing, they are going to pull back or push back.

It's just natural, it's automatic resistance. And we really learned this in martial arts, it's really cool. And that's how you learn to use other people's force. So if somebody's trying to pin you against the wall and you lean into it, they immediately push back harder, which actually gives you an advantage over them because they lose balance and it's immediate. Like you don't have to say anything, just lean back into it and they lean back and that gives you the advantage to get out of it. It's the exact same thing. So.

I'm saying all of this to illustrate a principle if I'm pulling, you know, hypothetically, I'm pulling on the kid or literally the kids pulling back. And so then you immediately think like, wow, there's a lot of resistance here. If I let go, this kid's going to fall. They're going to run away. I mean, They're going to They're going to go right towards the thing I'm keeping them from. And so I keep pulling. Well, guess what they keep doing. They keep pulling. And so it's this constant tug of war. And I'm

physiologically, psychologically, emotionally saying, I can't let go of my kid. I cannot give them freedom of autonomy because they will immediately run off. mean, look how hard they're pulling. They're going to hurt themselves. They're going run right for that dangerous thing. I can't let go. Even though you Dennings are telling me to let go, I can't do it. But here's the crazy thing. If you say, hey, wait, wait, wait. OK, wait a minute. Wait, I'm going let go. And you let go. And guess what? They don't have to pull anymore. There's no resistance. Now they're going to take a couple of steps back.

Rachel Denning (34:40.258)
and I hate being controlled. Even if they can't actually say that. Right, yes. not going to take it. They're going to take a couple steps back and you're like, hey, don't worry. No, no, worries. There's no control here. You get to choose. And we see this. We see this with the mentoring and the coaching we need to do. It's like, hey, wait a minute, step back. No one's controlling you. You're in charge. You get to decide. Your life will be exactly what you make of it. Like all of your decisions just determine the kind of person you want to be. You're good. And they look at you, scab, you're like, yeah, right, this isn't going end well.

And then then they realize, man, they're true. They're true. They're they're being honest. It's true. I don't have to fight. And when you remove that, everything changes. This child's like, OK, I don't have to fight. don't have to fight. So then they sit there for a little bit and it takes some time. And they sit there and like. Well, I do. I want to say or do nothing.

Yeah, and then they say their... at first you're like, okay, great. Go for it. And then a couple days they're like, well, I am bored out of my mind. It's like, don't want sit here and do nothing. Or they say something like, well, I'm not going to eat. Okay. Yeah, great. Cool. No problem. But guess what? We have good food and you're welcome to it whenever, like, we're good. And they're like, well, I'm not going to. And then after a little bit, they're like, man, I'm hungry. And like, okay, well, here's some stuff. like, they walk over and they eat some of the good things that you've prepared or that are available. Right. And it's like, that's awesome.

And constantly, here's the important element. If I'm setting a crap example, like this will fail. Like this whole strategy won't work if I'm setting a example. the safety of the fortress. If anything's allowed in the fortress or the kids can go anywhere and run to the neighbors or whatever, go anywhere to get whatever their drug of choice is, then that won't work either. And then if I'm setting a bad example, it won't work. But what I'm doing is I'm constantly living a Next level, sorry.

Next level it could work, but you've got a anyways. I'm just throwing that out there that it's not impossible It's just a little more challenging right, but anyways but the but the the way this magic works is they get to choose and Every single day they're watching us do good cool exciting wonderful positive things and so Naturally, they're like I want some of that I want I want the goodness

Rachel Denning (37:03.816)
I want to follow the example. I want to participate in all those good things that are going on. instead of having to control them or force them into these things, I'm allowing them to make their own choices and constantly inviting them to participate in all the good things. Right. So it's an invitation rather than an expectation in a way. And while you were talking about this, it made me think because I don't remember exactly when, but I do remember making that

shift in my own parenting where yeah it used to be with my young children that I would literally physically control them. I'd be like I need you to do this and I would move them or I would push them or I would pull them or I would take them here I would lift them up or I would do that. I hate that. And over time, over time I realized that because we would we would compare it like I would never do that to you. You would just find that so disrespectful or annoying right and same with me like if you

Physically made me do things or move me or did like that would be yeah exactly if I came over and grabbed you like a two-year-old and said Rachel I want you to come over here and drag you over here like it would be so Yeah, and when I realized that if I and I know people feel that this is extreme But I'm like if you once you begin to treat your child

like another adult and showing the same respect. Like a human being. And in fact, I remember reading one time and it had a huge impact on me. If you treat your child like a guest at your home, that's actually when you get the best responses. Because I thought about it. You would never have a guest come to your house and you're like, do this, hang up your coat, do that, now sit here and we're going to eat this and blah, blah, Don't leave until you're done with your food. That would be the worst way to treat a guest.

But immediately people are thinking like, wait a minute, if I start showing my child respect, they're just gonna start making bad choices. They're gonna make a mess and not clean it up and they're gonna do all this stuff. I know this because I've had these conversations and that's been the response. Like, wait, wait, wait, wait, okay. I get it conceptually, but.

Rachel Denning (39:19.746)
Come on. Actuality. Like help me out here. I might not ask my guests to clean up, but I expect my kids to clean up. Right. If I say to my six-year-old, that's OK, son. You can do what you'd like. He's like, whoa! I'm going to break everything in the I'm on the table. Yeah. No. So I totally get that. And that's why initially that type of statement feels so unattainable, because you think I'll never be able to give.

control in my house because my children will be out of control. There it is right there. because that's the ultimate fear. Yeah, that is the ultimate fear because because moms are afraid especially and some dads are afraid that if they allow their children to make their own choices that the natural default is going to be complete and utter chaos. Children breaking things, climbing on the table, like swinging from the chandeliers, like you know, whatever.

But this is what we're trying to talk about and with this analogy you were giving. Initially, yeah, because you're polling and they're polling and polling back and forth and so as soon as you let go, they're like, freedom and now chaos reigns. But what we're trying to say is that that might be the initial case, but over time, when you use these strategies of respect, and I'm not talking about this gentle parenting, blah, whatever, where you're like, is it okay if I touch you now? I'm gonna...

Is it okay if I ask you to clean up your own dish? I talking about that. That is not what I am talking about at all. I am talking about authoritative respect. Because you can be very authoritative and respectful at the same time. You know what mean? Yes, and I think I did a deep dive in this. I have a short course called the Family Man.

challenge and in there it talks about seven critical aspects and one of them is authority. And authority isn't look I'm bigger, I pay the bills, I'm meaner, like you'll do what I say or else. That is not authority at all. Yeah. Right. That's that's tyranny. Authority is earned. Right. So I love hearing you say this like hey it's authoritative respect.

Rachel Denning (41:40.258)
Authoritative versus authoritarian. There is a big difference. Yes. In fact, you can even look up, there's like four main types of parenting. One of them is authoritarian, which is the kind of tyrannical rule. But authoritative is, no, you are an authority figure. And you do set rules and you do have expectations. But it's not done in an authoritarian way. It's done in a way that's still super respectful. Yeah, still recognizes them as a human being with the freedom to make choices and.

and respect. provides respect. So for the six-year-old boy, we're like, hey bud, you're allowed to choose what you want to eat within this boundary. You can eat these things. Because this is what we have. Yeah. Right. You're not eating these things, and here's why. And you explain it. here's these other things over here. We're using those for a recipe tomorrow.

So you're not allowed to eat those things and we expect you to be respectful to that. we teach the point, we teach that that's the point. The point is we're respecting you and we expect you to respect us. And that's another key ingredient of this. It's mutual respect. That's where the authoritativeness works because not only are we respecting our children but we are expecting them to respect us. And they do. It's amazing. And that's where I was going with my thing talking about at first. Like you've got the tug of war going on.

and you think as soon as they let go it's gonna be chaos and they're gonna run all over and make a mess and ruin things. But once that kind of wears off and there's no longer this tug of war and you start showing mutual respect, I respect you and I expect you to respect me and that means don't climb on my table. This is my table that I bought and I love it and you know or my grandma gave it to me or whatever, it's disrespectful for you to climb on my table, don't do that. And take it step further. And I think this is where most of us will yell like.

Get off the table. How rude and inconsiderate. You don't ever walk on the table. And that's it. Right? Or if you get up there, you're time out, spanked, whatever punishment. Instead, you're like, he goes up there. And instead of you losing your gasket, you grab him. OK, come here, buddy. And you walk through what you said. You know, hey, this was from my grandma. We bought this. Very nice. Or it's very expensive. Or it's very expensive. And then I'm to sit him down. I'm going be like, hey, buddy. OK, look at the bottom of your feet.

Rachel Denning (44:04.194)
And I'll play a game. I'm a six-year-old boy. I'm like, where is this foot been today? And he's like, I ran over there. And I went outside. And you were out on the lawn. What happens on the lawn out there? yeah, the dogs pee out there and poop. And then there's all, and the birds poop. ugh. Okay, and that's all your feet. And then you come in with your feet with all these little invisible germs. And you jump up on the table. What happened to the table? What do we do on the table? Like, that's where we put our food.

So all that's disgusting is whatever. So I teach them, and the kids, they're like, I get it. And they'll remember that and respect it. Yeah. And it's interesting because all it is is we're essentially articulating what it is as adults we already know. We know all of these things. And that's why for us, we're like, don't get on the table. That's the reasoning to us. Even though we may not even be able to articulate it, just in our head we know, don't do that.

But when we take that time to articulate it for a child so that they understand the reasoning behind it, then it makes sense to them. And then once it makes sense, you've literally created these neural connections in their brain. And now they decide not to do it because it makes sense to their brain. That's the power of what we're trying to talk about here. We want all of these things to happen organically and naturally. We want them to make all of these connections in their brain.

so that they choose on their own to do the things that we want or don't want them to do because they understand for themselves. That's where the real power lies because you no longer have to be that controlling aspect. You're this mentor, you're this guide, you're a teacher, you're an authoritative figure that cares about them rather than only wants to control them to get some sort of outcome that they don't even understand. What you're trying to achieve or why.

And as long as you keep pulling, they'll keep resisting. And as they get bigger, it actually will lead to rebellion. So the vast majority of teenage rebellion, and this is going to be hard to hear, is literally caused by your desire to control them. Well, yeah, it's caused by your parenting tactics or strategies. Well, and I'm not even sure if I finished this thought about.

Rachel Denning (46:28.172)
how early on I recognized that I would physically control. And that's when I made that shift into having more of this respect. so, and this is what I think is hardest for parents to understand, especially for young children. And I'm not even sure why still, but I will often watch parents with young children. And I'm talking about five and younger, you know, and even babies. And sometimes I will see them.

And it's so strange to me because it's almost like they don't even see their children. They don't even see them as humans. It's almost like they just see them as obstacles or impediments or something they have to deal Or stewardship. Yeah. But it's like they don't actually look at them or listen to them or notice them or really pay attention to them or really engage with them. And When I learned to switch my parenting so that I actually engaged with the child,

as a human being and as much as possible, as much as was age appropriate, talk to them, explain to them what we were doing and why we were doing it and what was expected of them and gave them some examples. You know, this is a game I would to play with my younger kids of like, when we do, you know, if we go to this place or we're having dinner, should we stand on the table? And they'll be like, no, we don't stand on the table, you know.

Should we sit quietly and use our manners? Yes, we should do that. Should we make cow noises? Should we make sheep noises? Should we try to imitate an elephant? And we just make it We're making it fun and they're like, no, no, why would I? No, I shouldn't do that. And we literally prevent all the things they probably would have done had we not played the game. Yeah. And so it's essentially this way of, at an age-appropriate level, showing them respect, treating them as a human being. But.

Essentially engaging them in whatever it is you're trying to do rather than just forcibly expecting them to do it and then making them do it and then of course then it turns into a fight or a battle. And all of that can be avoided. There's no reason, I know we've said this before, but we literally, and I picked the year 15, I don't even know, maybe it's longer, like we have not had a tantrum or even, like I can't even remember the last time our children have cried uncontrollably.

Rachel Denning (48:42.634)
or even cried at all unless they literally got hurt. Like our children don't cry. The natural state of a child who has all of their needs met is happiness. And you may think that there's no way. The natural state, and I include teenagers, of children who have their needs met is happiness. That is their natural state. They are pleasant.

They're They're to be around. They are cooperative. They go along with what you need. They're curious. They're ambitious. Yeah. That is the natural state. So if any of your children are not that way, and this is hard to hear, it's because you're doing something or not doing something that's throwing them off their natural state. That's causing and contributing.

to their unnatural state of unhappiness, anger, annoyance, frustration, craziness, chaos, bad behavior. It is, and I know that this is a bold statement, but after however many years we've been doing this, I just know it's true. It's the parenting that is causing the problems. Now, for those of you who may have like,

there's gonna be a tiny percentage of you have somebody like a kid with some special needs or some circumstance, but that's a tiny percentage. So obviously we're not talking about that. But for 99 % of us, and some of you right now are like, no, no, Greg, you don't know my kid. Guess what? Every family, including ours, has that kid.

And sometimes two or three of them. every child is different and every and this is another thing. Every child requires different parenting strategies. We cannot use a one size fits all. Not all of your strategies are going to work with every child. But even for quote that kid you just have to pick a different strategy and I promise it all works. So I really got to emphasize this because it's so profound and so important. If your child's grumpy resistant angry unhappy.

Rachel Denning (50:55.766)
like bitter, destructive, there's a need that's not being met. Usually mental, emotional or physical. It's physiological. That's where you start. You're like, okay, wait a minute. Are they getting enough sleep and sleeping well? Are they eating good food? And again, I'm not going to force that. I'm not going to force them to sleep. I'm not going to, cause then you might hear this think, that's it. I'm going back into control mode. I'm going to control how much they eat and sleep and da da da. Like no.

facilitate all those good things, teach them, help them walk through it, and they're all like, Well, and that's why, especially if you try to make a transition from a more controlling parenting style to something more like this, there's definitely gonna be a transition stage that's not easy. I'm not gonna tell you it's not gonna be easy. It's gonna be challenging, because you're learning to navigate new things and they're wondering what the heck is going on because you're not using your normal things. So there's gonna be some chaos there.

But as long as you can have this vision of what's on the other side, it's worth it. It's totally worth it because life becomes so much happier and simpler. And you can start getting results immediately. Sorry, I have to throw this in here. I didn't mention depression and anxiety. If your child is dealing with depression and anxiety, it's the same thing. Things are off because the natural state is to be optimistic and happy and joyful and have healthy well-being.

I just read a brand new study that is coming out. It's super awesome. Talking about getting sunlight earlier in the morning in the day and less light at night. So at nighttime we should be experiencing darkness. So screens go off and lights get dim dimmed. And which is part of controlling the fortress. They control the fortress. Yeah.

So and we're simply as because I know especially in the United States they have the option where when we live there I could literally turn off the internet at night. Yeah. So you go. So off the internet. Boom. And like wait I you guys say yeah you don't control the kid. We control the fortress. it's not a fight it's not a battle we teach them. I would show them the study. Hey guys look at this. If we don't get sunlight earlier in the day is better.

Rachel Denning (53:19.828)
And we have lights, lots of light at night. So even just having the lights on at night and staying up late with all this bright light when the sun is already set, that's throwing people off and contributing to depression. And they found that if we keep it dark at night, so we're dimming lights and then shutting the lights off. And in the morning, we actually physically go outside. It drastically diminishes depression. Yeah. And what he went through ADHD.

OCD. He was naming all these problems that are just prevalent everywhere. They were all significantly reduced by turning the lights off at night and going outside in the morning. And we started our day, this was a special day today. Our youngest daughter, Sandriana, was baptized in the ocean this morning. So our whole family's out there as the sun's coming up and it was gorgeous and beautiful. And then we...

We wind things down at night. start dimming lights. I'm always going through turning off lights. then, like even our bedroom light, I hate when our bedroom lights on. We just have lamps. I turn the lamps down. We start settling everything down because that's the natural rhythm. And he talked about that in his study, the circadian rhythms. Get them back to a healthy state. And guess what? People are happier and healthier. And that's, again, that's not controlling.

our children because they're still allowed to choose. Our children choose when they go to bed and when they get up. And they always have. And that is not controlled by us. It's controlled by them because they are learning how to direct their own lives, to control themselves, to learn how much sleep they need and when, you know, when they naturally wake up and when they should go to bed. They have to learn that stuff about themselves. And when can they, if we're constantly controlling them and making them go to bed when they're not ready to go to bed.

Have you ever tried to make yourself go to bed when you weren't ready? It's like miserable because you're way there forever awake saying like, I'm not ready to go to sleep. It doesn't work. Now, again, because we've been having this conversation for 20 plus years with people, moms will tell me, it's almost always moms, well, if I let my kids sleep, they won't get out of bed until like one o'clock in the afternoon. And so obviously you have to teach and direct.

Rachel Denning (55:42.58)
and control the fortress and establish some standards. Like, no, there's just, there's no, sleeping in is an absolute waste of life. And you keep teaching that and you have natural consequences so that it doesn't get abused. Because if you've already built out the system, if you've already built the bad habits in place and then you offer some freedom, like there may be some of that.

And I know that that's a problem because I have heard moms talking about their teenagers who will sleep till one, you know, but within our fortress, that's never been a problem. Never. children have never, I can't even think of a time when they've slept like past 10 o'clock and that was late, you know. And we've had five teens so far. For the most part.

When you have this sort of lifestyle, they want to get up. They want to be engaged. They have things they're working on. That's the natural state. That's the natural state. So I think that that's what we're trying to emphasize is that when you have the fortress and you allow freedom within the fortress, the natural state of all the people living there is just happiness.

There's not a reason to be upset and fighting and crying and... in. and sleeping in and not eating or eating or whatever. there's freedom. And when people are allowed to be free, they're happy. Like, that's just... Exactly. That's human nature. Human nature. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there was a couple other things I was gonna say. I wanna give some specific strategies here, because I think as specific as we can be teaching the principle of how to handle this. That actually reminded me. Can you say it before I do it again?

Because I was going to talk about in our coaching, you know, because you are saying, if kids are unhappy or they're grumpy or this. And usually, the cause for those things is generally something physiological. They're hungry. They're tired. That's where we usually start our coaching clients with. Like, that's where you begin. If your kid is acting like that, and unfortunately, we've been trained as parents in this effort of control, like, my gosh, my children's acting up.

Rachel Denning (57:50.668)
That means I have to discipline them. I need to enforce some consequence on their behavior. They're crying, they're upset. That means I need to do something. And we're like, no, you don't, except maybe give them a snack, right? you're hungry, you're tired, you're upset. Here you go. Here's a snack. And it needs to, of course, be something that's nourishing for their body, because giving them more sugar is only exacerbating the problem. They need like a bratwurst or a steak or a hamburger or some meat or protein, right?

that balances their blood sugar. That's a whole other level we could go into is the blood sugar and insulin levels that are contributing to so true, because a lot of good moms are like, no, I make sure my kids are eating, and I'm giving them sandwiches and bagels and orange juice. is all not good. All those things are not good. you think you're feeding your kid, and you're actually.

tanking their health. the nuances, right? And this is where it can feel so challenging and overwhelming sometimes because there's so many levels of the nuances of things, but that's another topic. And one of the other things I always did to prevent the meltdowns, and I know moms hate this, is that I would allow my children to snack all day, pretty much. Because I'm not in their body, and I don't know when they need food, and I don't know how much they've been running and playing and using their brain. Yes. When I allow

them to make the decision about what about when they're going to eat they are so much happier and healthier and healthier right because okay stop if i i control the fortress of course so i don't have anything available to them only healthy snacks only healthy snacks are available but they get to decide when they eat those healthy snacks and it's it's free range yeah and and i can hear you be like no they'll eat so much yeah they probably need it yeah now they won't

And if you've created an unhealthy relationship with food by trying to control it, is what this sink in, if I try to control food, it creates an unhealthy relationship with food. then your kids are like, they're sneaking food and they're overeating because what they're doing is they're resisting the control. So you remove the controls and then they'll just eat when they're hungry, when their body needs it. And they stop when they're full.

Rachel Denning (01:00:07.01)
And this is amazing to me. If you tried to physically mimic a child, you would burn 12,000 calories a day. It would be exhausting. And you would be very hungry. And you'd be just consuming massive amounts of food because you're like, I'm burning calories like crazy. why their children are grumpy or upset or unpleasant. And you're like, look at how many calories they're burning. They're angry and they need some food. but wait a minute. We eat breakfast at seven.

We eat lunch at noon and dinner at five. That's it. No snacks in between. And we have a schedule. Why? Where does that even come from? Where does this three meals a day? It's all arbitrary. And your time, the time, it's all completely arbitrary as though the human body is only hungry at those times. It's insane. it's yeah, it's crazy. So we're setting up our own self-sabotage. We're sabotaging our parenting.

And nobody eats anything and then when when I'm ready at a certain time Everyone has to come and sit down and eat whether they're hungry or not Wait what? How could how can you imagine we have seven children? How can we even begin to imagine that all nine of us would be hungry at the same time? Nutritional needs at the exact same time, right? That's it's it's so naive. I understand that

The reason for that because especially as a woman, I enjoy sharing my food with my family. Like that's the emotional benefit for me. And as a man, enjoy eating my food when I'm hungry. Exactly. Right. I know. And so sometimes as a woman that bothers me about a man sometimes I'm like, can't you wait to eat when I'm hungry? I'll have because my steak comes out hot and I'll have it gone before Rachel has prettied her plate. Right. my She's like, come here with me. I'm like.

I'll come sit by you because my steak has been consumed. So I understand that desire, but it But what is your desire? Articulate it. Like, why do you want me to sit with you and the kids? I think part of... Okay, part of it is because I am a naturally driven, ambitious, productive person. Like, productivity is one of my main emotions. And when I'm not...

Rachel Denning (01:02:30.018)
being productive and I take time off to go eat because it is kind of a big deal for me. I'm gonna take time to go eat now. When I do that I guess another part of my brain is like I can be productive at spending time with my family while I'm eating. If I eat by myself I feel like it's a waste. But your goal is You know what I mean? It's actually a waste. And I wanted you to articulate that. Your goal is to reconnect with the people in your life. To make deposits in relationships.

I want to point out that that can happen around the table, food or no food, or it can happen around the island in the kitchen. And that's where I think specifically our family, again, it looks very chaotic, it looks very unconventional. We have learned how to do that connection, but it's not a formal sit-down dinner. I fully enjoy those. As do I. One, I don't do them that often because it's a lot of work.

and it's more work than I'm willing to do on a daily basis because I'm so productive. have so many other things I'm working on and doing. literally have chosen not to make the time to do a formal sit, not even formal, just a sit down dinner every night because one, we found other ways to still get that connection that we want. We want the connection and we have it, but it's just more like a, you know, people have heard standing around the island in the kitchen eating, but not.

formally sitting at the table together. I think this is important. A couple points. Good moms wanting to be good moms and wanting to do things they've heard about or maybe their mom did or something. They do all this extra work sometimes three meals a day. And so like you you alluded to early on it's like you're making it way harder than it needs to be. And I want to emphasize this. You can get the outcome you want which is healthy physically healthy family that eats well.

and really great relationships, you can get that without all the extra work and battle. And you're right, like I did feel like it was a battle to make everyone come.

Rachel Denning (01:04:42.188)
have the meal at the same time because our children have learned to be productive like we are and they're constantly working on projects or things they're doing and so to expect them to all be quote unquote hungry at the same time besides the fact that because we read a lot of Wayne Dyer early on in our personal growth journey and he was big into like why do you eat when you eat and why do you eat when you're not hungry? Paying attention to your body so that

you eat when you're hungry and you stop when you're full and if you're not hungry you don't eat. So often some of our kids will even make dinners. I'll make dinner sometimes and some of our kids will be like I'm not hungry. I'm going to respect that because I respect the child and if they tell me they're not hungry I'm going to listen to them and I'm not going to make them eat because well we're having dinner now. That's gigantic. Yeah. We are sitting down as a family having dinner you will eat if you're not hungry. What kind of craziness is that?

Why are we force feeding a human body that is satiated already or doesn't need food right now? doesn't need calories, No, I'm shoving this down your throat because I have this rule in my head that we all sit down and eat. Right. And I remember, you know, my mother's generation and how they would talk about how they were forced to eat everything on their plate. And I just think that's dumb. Yeah.

Because if you're literally forced by someone else to eat everything on your plate, whether you're hungry or not, whether you want to eat that thing or not, all that does is produce food issues. That contributes you think so? I mean, this was two generations ago, and if we look at America right now, do you think that generation may have had an influence on, like, don't know, overeating? Yeah. I wonder... There's definitely a lot more contributing... I'm being facetious because we're at 40 % now obesity in the US. Well, and there's...

And it started with a generation. And there's a lot more factors, course, because there's all the processed industrialized food that is definitely contributing to it. But but with the idea of, I should finish everything on my plate like that adds to it, of course. And you and I stopped living by that because I know early on I had that idea. But because I had as a kid, too.

Rachel Denning (01:06:56.93)
And you remember, I remember the battle. I remember being so resentful and resistant to my mom. You know what she was trying to get me to eat? Vegetables. Now we don't even eat vegetables. Are you kidding me? Like, you know why kids don't want to eat vegetables? Because they're not good for the human body. That's why. Put some bacon and some cheese in front of your kid. Put a steak in front of Right. Throw down some, throw some hamburgers with a little cheese on it. And not, not, I mean, I just mean ground beef.

some ground beef on there and see if your kids are like, no, I won't eat it, but put some peas or some leaf like animals, put some bean and like see and it's so crazy to me, parents are literally battling with their children, hurting their relationship because they're trying to get their kid to eat vegetables that actually aren't even good for

And that's just one little thing. But it's significant. This is huge. No, it is. And also the idea of finishing your food because you should when instead of learning to listen to your own body and teach your kids to to theirs, teach your kids to listen to their body. I should stop eating when I'm full, whether or not my plate is empty or not. Exactly. If my plate is not empty, I'm going to stop because I'm full. And that's more important than whether or not the plate's

Now some of you, like me, are very much against waste. That's why we have pigs. I hate waste. We can feed it to the pigs. We feed it to our other animals. don't feel bad at all. But what I learned to do, and I would do this early on, and I know other dads who are listening and other dads in my coaching program said this, like, man, I overeat because I end up cleaning my kids' plates. Like, I don't want the food to go to waste. And I was the same way. Early in our marriage, was like, gosh, I eat my whole, I got two servings.

And then I ate whatever was left off all the kids because I'm not wasting anything. I'm like, that's disgusting. Like I'm grossly overeating because I'm so afraid of waste. So what I just started strategically doing and reminding myself and my kids like, Hey, you can always go back, get less. It's okay to get less, get smaller portions. And so we all just started consuming smaller portions and then there's no waste.

Rachel Denning (01:09:20.192)
and nobody's over eating. Whatever's left you can save. Yeah save it for later. it to the kids, the pigs, like give it to your dogs, whatever. But learn to listen. Learn to listen to your body. Teach your kids to listen to your body. Not consume whatever's on the plate. That is so profound and so important. It's a tiny deal but it's huge. and the reason we're going on about because you're like gosh guys move on already like why we're trying to help you understand.

the underlying concepts here. With the best of intentions, good moms, good dads, they have all of these rules in their heads about how things should be done and are creating battles in their homes about them. When if you really dive in, you're like, wait a second, first of all, why are we having a battle? To me, that became one of my signs, right? When something started to become a battle, anything in our home,

That's when I was like, I need to rethink this. I need to rethink this because if something's a battle in my home, that means I'm not doing it right or it's something that shouldn't even be a part of our life. Let that hit home hard right there. that is a battle with my family or any of my children, I completely rethink it or just eliminate it from our life. Because the natural state of a family should be battle-free. It's happiness. Right. When all of us are allowed to make our own choices,

Have the freedom to pursue and do the things we want within this fortress of safety the natural state is happiness This is where I reach through the microphone and put my hands on your shoulders shake you a little bit and say hey Stop right now. Whatever you're doing. Stop and hear this if there are any battles going on in your family at all Stop and reevaluate what's going on? And I know this is hard to hear. I'm not throwing you under the bus. You're probably the cause

unconsciously, inadvertently, being a good parent, trying to do good things, you're actually causing the very thing you don't want. And again, why we were going on about the food, because this is how we learned all this stuff. Because we would have the battles, and then we would say like, let's reevaluate it, let's study it, let's learn more, and then we realized.

Rachel Denning (01:11:41.548)
Human beings should eat when they're hungry and stop when they're full and they shouldn't have to clear their plate and that contributes to problems. And that contributes to this and that and this and it's all connected. I have to stop and ask myself, wait a minute. Here's my child and here's a plate of food. Am I more concerned about what's happening in my child's body or what's happening on the plate? Honestly, ask yourself. And when you say it out loud, that sounds so stupid.

You're like, wait a minute, am I generally more concerned about what's happening on this plate than I am what's happening inside my child's biochemistry? No way. I'm way more concerned with my child than the plate. Why do I keep making such a big deal of the plate? Like, let's go with the child. But we have this arbitrary idea of like, no, if they clear the plate, then the child will be healthy. That's bogus. Yeah, right. Absolutely. It is. It's true. And so you start.

reevaluating and shifting things like wait a minute no I don't care about the plate I care about the kid boom now I start making decisions and of course that's it's also specific but hypothetical theoretical is like this principle applies across the board so I have to reemphasize because some of you might be crying while you're listening to this episode there may have been tears shed

And we're not trying to... And I've been there. Yeah, me too. We're not trying to make you feel bad. In fact, I want to deeply honor your goodness. Like the fact that you are a good person, trying to raise good kids with good outcomes, that's awesome. That's worth celebrating for the rest of our lives to celebrate good moms doing good things. I love that.

simultaneously we also have to say hey you're unconsciously or naively doing things that are causing the very problems you're trying to avoid and it's it's not about you it doesn't make you a bad person it doesn't make you a bad mom it has nothing to do with you or your self-worth or anything else it is literally a skill yeah we've used this analogy many times before but

Rachel Denning (01:13:58.582)
That would be akin to saying like, my gosh, you're such a horrible person, Greg, because you don't know how to play tennis correctly. I saw you on that court and you looked like crap. You are not worth anything. if you tell me that I need to twist my wrist a little bit to hit the ball, I'm like, that's it. I have no worth or value in this world. I'm a wretched human being because my wrist was turned wrong. So in a way, I see us as, let's say, tennis coaches.

even though you and I know nothing about tennis, but for this analogy, we're just here trying to say, hey, here's the nuance of things. If you do it a little bit like this and you move a little bit like that and you stop doing that, your tennis game is going to be better. That's all we want to do with parents, with moms. We're trying to say, hey, you're a good person and your worth doesn't change by how well you play tennis. But you're lacking some parenting skills, connecting it here to this conversation. It's the parenting skills.

you're lacking that are causing the outcomes you don't want. Let's improve the skills. Let's change the technique a little bit. And you're going to get the outcomes you want. That's it. That's all we're saying. And so we don't have to. And I fully understand because I also took it very personally. And I also felt the pain.

But when you begin to view it like that, of like, it's just my technique that sucks. I need to just work on that. That's so important. Then you'd no longer have to feel bad about yourself or feel like... You're a bad mom. You're a bad mom. You're not. That belief doesn't ever have to rise. You don't have to say, I'm a bad mom. It's like, no, I was doing that wrong. I had the wrong technique. Yeah. I was using the wrong strategy. I just need to tweak it. So the emphasis today is if...

just kind of examine your house, your life, your parenting, all, everything's going on with your whole family dynamics. attention to the battles. And if...

Rachel Denning (01:15:52.094)
No, not if, because we know what's happening. Wherever you are exerting control, stop and figure out a different approach to persuade, influence, teach, mentor. Just totally transform the way you're doing it so that you're no longer controlling or attempting to control human beings. Because you really can't control people. You can try.

but it's only gonna create resistance and You can control, and here's the thing that most parents don't realize until it's too late, you can control your children. You can get them to do what you want their entire childhood. But that does not mean that the end, and I would say almost with 100 % of cases, there's underlying resentment that's building. yep. Because no one likes to be controlled. You can't change.

the long-term results of that underlying resentment. And at some point, it will manifest itself. And it's most likely in adulthood. Well, and in your grandchildren. And in your grandchildren. Because the way they then parent is going to come out. All that resentment is going to come out. Yeah. So we to realize that you may think, my strategies are working great.

But unless the relationship is there with your child in the way you want it to be, then your strategy is not really working. And thank you for saying that. It's important because we've met, as you can imagine, we've met so many parents around the world. And we've met many who are these moms, these good moms that are just driven, like, fierce. They're just a force of nature. they're like, look at my results. And it's like, OK, yeah, your kids.

doing this and doing that and doing this and doing that. I'm doing this big long list of all the check all the boxes all the accomplishments and for me because I've been doing this for so long. And because they come to you and admit. Well I take a five or ten minute conversation with that kid I'm like man. Well like the inner turmoil the frustration the resentment. happens and parents again good moms are not realizing this then they're like well yeah but my teens really suffering with.

Rachel Denning (01:18:13.118)
anxiety or depression or depression anger or bitterness or hurting themselves or they've talked about suicide they're just so pessimistic they have no friends it's actually directly connected to their parenting strategy and i know that this is harsh for us to say and almost seemingly unbelievable but because we have been studying it so long i no longer can deny that right like i to me it's clear as day

there is a direct connection to the way you're parenting and the control you're exerting and these mental and emotional issues that your children are struggling with. Exactly. But we don't make those connections. Usually you think, well, it's just, you know, a lot of people are struggling with it. Well, yeah, look around. Look at the parenting. Or, well, no, that's just normal. Teens are like that. No, that's not normal. It's common. Right. But it's not healthy. And it's not the normal natural state. It's parent-induced.

So even if you're like, yeah, look at my results, checking all the boxes. If your kid is not genuinely happy and healthy mind, body and spirit, competent, yeah, competence is prepared like genuinely truly thriving. And in fact, here's here's how it started coming up. This was like more than 10 years ago. I started seeing this where these these

know, firehouse moms would just in past like, I cannot wait for my kid to move out. Like I am so done with the battles and the resistance. Like I love my kid, but I'm just cannot wait for them to be gone. There's a sign that's a sign that the battles and the forcing and the controlling. I don't want any of my kids working. Right. Where's the point? We're like, we love.

love our children and they're you know they're ready to go conquer the world and we're like we're gonna miss you so much if if your kid is confident and confident and ready to succeed and you both you and the child feel this man this was so sure you know those those 20 years passed so quickly I wish they could extend then you know you're in a good spot but if you're like good rinse

Rachel Denning (01:20:31.426)
18 years was enough on your birthday. You're out and you're getting my foot in your backside. Good luck. Love you. That kind of crap. That's no, the battle shouldn't be there. It's, it's evidence that you've been controlling and you're still trying to control. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. This stuff matters so much. I can't, I can't think of any work that's more important than trying to guide and mentor a little human being.

through all the techniques and skills. This stuff matters so much and it's worth every effort. So and on that note, if you have specific questions, because maybe you've been listening to this and you're here thinking, yeah, what about this one? How do I get that outcome without controlling? I can literally cannot think. is not on board? Yeah, what if my spouse is the controller? What if my spouse is the problem? And so if I don't control, then the whole place falls apart. Like if you have specific questions, reach out to us. We'd love to help. Love you guys. Reach upward