April 30, 2025
#310 The Dark Side of ‘Attachment’ Parenting — How to Protect a Child’s Free Will & Psychological Safety
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Have you ever worried about whether your parenting methods are building real emotional connection—or unintentionally causing harm?
We received a thoughtful question from a listener who shared a heartbreaking personal story: while her mom intended to foster attachment , her methods—like forced "holding time"— ended up destroying trust and psychological safety instead.
In this episode, we dive deep into what we do and do not mean when we talk about attachment, emotional safety, and parenting strategies.
Attachment parenting is about honoring a child’s free will — not demanding submission. True psychological safety is built through respect, patience, and emotional connection — not control or coercion.
We'll clarify why even good parenting philosophies can be twisted if they aren't grounded in emotional intelligence and healthy boundaries.
And we’ll share practical ways you can foster true psychological safety in your home while supporting your child’s natural emotional development.
If you want to raise resilient, emotionally healthy kids who trust you deeply , don’t miss this important episode.
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Key Takeaways:
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Psychological safety is about trust, not forced compliance.
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Attachment parenting must honor a child’s autonomy and free will.
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Even good parenting methods can be distorted by emotional wounds.
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Emotional resilience grows when children feel seen, heard, and safe.
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Creating emotional safety at home starts with self-awareness as a parent.
Chapters:
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Attachment Parenting
01:32 Clarifying Misunderstandings in Parenting
04:23 The Importance of Parenting Skills
07:46 Defining Success in Parenting
10:41 Understanding Attachment Parenting
13:25 The Dangers of Misapplied Parenting Techniques
16:38 The Impact of Adoption on Attachment
19:21 The Consequences of Control in Parenting
22:41 The Role of Freedom in Child Development
25:39 The Misconception of Holding Time
29:11 The Impact of Sleep Training on Children
32:46 Respecting Free Will in Parenting
35:54 The Concept of Holding Time
40:41 Understanding Boundaries and Safety
45:08 Preparing Children for Adulthood
49:35 The Lifelong Mentor-Mentee Relationship
54:55 Building a Legacy of Good Parenting
RESOURCES:
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0:00
Wow, you haven't had tantrums for 16 years?
Parenting is a skill.
0:05
The more you can look at it from all different angles, the better you understand that subject.
The results we want are.
0:11
Earned behind all of them is our respect for our children's free will.
No human being wants to be controlled.
0:17
They need to be maturing and progressing.
Parenting should be one of the greatest joys in your life.
0:24
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the extraordinary family life podcast, where your hosts, Greg and
Rachel Denning, bringing you some more goods today about attachment and what it is and what it
0:34
isn't.
Parenting.
0:35
We, we we want to share as many strategies as possible and.
As many angles as possible.
0:41
Yes.
So that we're not only are we understood, but we cannot be misunderstood.
0:45
But that's it's so hard to not be misunderstood because every one of us is operating through our
lens.
0:50
So when we say, hey, you should do this, it gets misinterpreted and misapplied.
And they're like, oh, the Denning said we should hold our kids.
0:57
So now I'm putting them in a headlock until they calm down.
It's like.
1:01
That's not what we meant.
Well, that's an outstream example, but we did get an e-mail that we want to talk about and talk
1:07
through because I feel that it is clarifying and more information is helpful, especially in this
series.
1:15
I mean, essentially it's a series now that we're doing where we're talking about, for lack of a
better phrase, attachment parenting.
1:22
And like I mentioned in the previous two episodes, I really do feel that this is the key piece that
so many parents are missing.
1:32
This is the foundational piece that we have used that has made all of the difference in our
parenting.
1:37
It's the very reason that we essentially eliminated tantrums from our life.
You know, I had one mom respond.
1:46
They're like, wow, you haven't had tantrums for 16 years.
That means your oldest child was 6 and our youngest at the time was 2 when our oldest was 6 because
1:56
she's now 18, our fourth child.
And of course, our youngest 7 wasn't even born.
2:01
So yeah, it.
And, you know, you and I were thinking about it like, when is the last time we have a tantrum?
2:08
I really cannot even think of it.
It's been so long.
2:11
It's been since I think she was 2.
And the reason I, if I could sum it up, the reason why that's happened is because of attachment
2:20
parenting.
Like that is the style and the approach that we've used to be able to get those results, which is
2:25
also prevented teenage rebellion.
Like our oldest did some rebelling and the rest of them have done no rebelling.
2:33
And we're currently on our fifth teenager, right?
Well, hold on, you have to give context there, even when you say some rebelling like.
2:41
No.
Well, OK, you're right.
2:43
It's compared to the rebelling I did as a child.
Yeah, it was not any of that.
2:47
And I was doing drugs.
I.
2:49
Was are thinking about when you say rebelling like, like, no, like our little things are so mild and
it's not OK.
2:56
We don't want to be misunderstood here either because a lot of people, we, they hear our story and
like, Oh, you guys were lucky.
3:01
You just got, you got 7 kids with no problems, no struggles, no challenges.
You just, you lucked out you, you won the kid lottery.
3:09
And like, no, that's not the case.
And I, I want to point this out emphatically.
3:14
Parenting is a skill and it's a very specific skill that literally has.
It has very little to do with how good you are at other things.
3:22
Yeah.
And how good of a person you are.
3:24
It's it's independent of that.
It is a very specific skill.
3:27
You might be really, really good at marriage and suck at parenting.
You might be really good at tennis and suck at parenting.
3:32
You might be great in business.
And you just can't parent.
3:36
Great with people, right?
You still second parents?
3:38
Yes, exactly.
You might be great in leadership and management, all this stuff and you're just not parenting
3:42
because parenting is a very, very specific skill.
And so that's why we're we're getting some detailed in it.
3:48
And I just wanted to add on to those specifics because because, well, first our oldest is adopted.
So it's not because we just had a genetic winning of the lottery.
3:57
She's adopted then we have kids with ADHD, we have kids with learning disabilities, we have
neurodiversity like we have all the things.
4:07
It's not like, like you said, it's not like we're just lucky and didn't get any of that.
We've got it all.
4:13
But as you're emphasizing, parenting is a skill.
And so we, you and I consistently got better and better and better at parenting.
4:20
That's why we got the results that we did, not just because we were lucky with the kids that we got.
I mean, we were, we have amazing kids, but I know that we would have way more problems with them if
4:32
it wasn't for our parents.
Any, any one of them or every one of them could have gone AWOL absolutely in any way shape or.
4:39
Form Yeah.
So anyways, back to what I was saying.
4:42
Yes, there was you're right.
It wasn't rebellion like most people think of.
4:46
It was a little, it was a little rockier as the first and oldest child, adopted child.
It was a little more challenging.
4:53
But point being, we have not had any normal teenage issues with any other of our teenagers and we're
on our fifth child.
5:03
But So what I'm trying to say though, is that we want to make sure in this episode that we clarify
things so that we're not misunderstood.
5:13
Like you were saying, we want to address this e-mail that we got, but talk about like, OK, this is,
this is not what we mean.
5:20
This is what we this, this is definitely not what that means.
Like let's get super clear here.
5:25
So there's not a misunderstanding about when we say this about attachment or these other strategies
we're sharing.
5:31
It does not mean this, It does not look like this.
Like I want to talk through gentle parenting and holding time, all these different things, not what
5:40
we're talking about.
And so that's what this is going to clarify so that we can help you.
5:44
Because the more you can talk about a subject and look at it from all different angles, the better
you understand that subject.
5:52
And so as we're talking about this as one of the most important parenting strategies and approaches,
we need to make sure that we have a very clear picture of what it looks like so that we're not using
6:03
it in a way that then actually doesn't work and becomes detrimental to the relationship with our
child and to their own mental and emotional well-being.
6:12
And there are so, so much bad advice out there.
Terrible, horrible parenting advice out there.
6:20
People have no business writing books or writing books and they're speaking and they're sharing
their horrendous parenting ideas.
6:27
And they're, and as we're going to stay in here, they're getting them from therapists.
Like one of the ideas in this e-mail came from a therapist.
6:35
This is so, it's so backwards.
It doesn't work.
6:38
And this, you know, we come across all the time.
I see it in emails, I see it on social media, I see these parenting experts, you know, going to
6:47
present these groups.
I'm like, bro, I've met your family.
6:50
You have no business being on stage presenting your ideas about parenting like this is.
Because results don't lie.
7:01
So the results that you get, and it's also the results that are like kind of behind the scenes and
reading in between the lines.
7:08
Because on the surface, a family can look like, oh, wow, yeah, they're good.
They've got it together.
7:13
But when you learn to understand human psychology, kind of like you talked about in the last
episode, you can see certain signs that you're like, hmm, that's interesting because usually that
7:23
symptom right there is indicative of this problem.
Deeper problems.
7:28
Yeah.
Well, and I guess the other thing is too is we have to look at like, how are we measuring how, how
7:32
are you measuring parenting success?
That is absolutely fundamental to this whole conversation.
7:37
It's like, well, how do you measure parenting success?
A lot of parents they look around at like the really bad ugly stuff and they think, well, I don't
7:46
have any of that, so man, I'm crushing it as a parent.
Which in one level of analysis is true.
7:52
Like they're doing.
Better, and that's a good thing.
7:55
Like, kudos to them.
Yeah, exactly.
7:57
But there's a scale and it goes up and up and up and.
And you know, as the trends of society keep going farther and farther down and the standard of
8:06
mediocrity keeps dropping, then as long as we're a little bit above that, we feel like we're
winning, we're succeeding, we're beating the odds, which in one aspect great, fantastic, but we're
8:17
not playing in that realm.
Like we want absolutely extraordinary.
8:20
We hold very high standards in a very healthy, happy way.
People opt into they our kids choose to live with these standards.
8:29
We're not forcing any of that.
It's like it's not this high pressure zone militarized, you know, Denning family, It's none of that.
8:38
But we're holding such a high standard that you know, if you're like, if you're just above mediocre
and you're like, this is it.
8:43
I should write a book on the same planet bro.
Because one of the things that you love to say to me and the kids and yourself is don't compare
8:52
down.
You know, if you're sitting there thinking like, wow, look at everyone below me.
8:59
And not, not that it necessarily has to be in that light or the approach, but if you're looking
around and thinking I'm doing pretty good here, look.
9:06
Compared to compared.
To everyone else.
9:08
Exactly.
Quote UN quote below me.
9:12
That's not a good measurement of success.
And that's kind of what you're talking about.
9:15
Like it depends on how you define it.
But if you look up at the best parents out there and the best families with the best relationships
9:22
and the best outcomes, then you realize like, oh, wow, there's and this is meant to be done in a way
that inspires you, not makes you feel like trash, right?
9:31
But like, wow, there's so much more I could achieve.
There's so much more life, fulfilment, joy, happiness, peace we could have.
9:39
That's amazing.
That's what I'm after rather than I'm doing pretty good compared to the neighbors, right.
9:45
So how do we do that?
And again, that's why we're here talking about it again so that we can get a more clear picture.
9:53
Because when I say to you, the foundation of that is attachment parenting, everyone has a different
definition in their head of what that looks like or feels like.
10:03
And it can include gentle parenting, include holding time.
It can include non parenting, which is parents that allow their children to do anything right
10:10
without consequences, without boundaries.
Depending on your own upbringing and worldview, a quote UN quote attachment parenting can look like
10:20
a lot of different.
Right.
10:21
Depending on how you define the quality of a relationship, you might think, no, I have a great
relationship because maybe you're comparing it to a horrible relationship you had with your parents.
10:32
You think this is great?
I have a way better relationship.
10:36
It is, it is an improvement and that is worth celebrating.
We don't want to diminish that in any way.
10:42
We want to praise it, but we also do want to say that we.
Want to hold a high ideal?
10:48
There's more you could be enjoying.
So again, I don't even know how to articulate or emphasis enough emphasize this enough.
10:56
It's like, and I, I think the problem is that we're just not exposed to it.
We haven't seen it up close.
11:02
We don't know what it looks like.
And because we haven't seen it up close, we don't know what's possible very often when those kind of
11:08
things happening.
Like I didn't even know this existed.
11:10
I've never seen it practiced.
And for real, not, not the show that people put on, you know, the cruise ship performance.
11:16
But like, no, this is real.
And until you see that, you don't know what's possible.
11:20
And so I want, I guess part of my invitation today is start redefining how you define success.
And as I hear you saying, Rachel, that you know this, you know, what we're referring to is
11:31
attachment parenting.
That is the key difference in the quality of the relationship you have with your children and will
11:39
have with your children.
Get this right and you'll have a fantastic relationship.
11:44
Get it wrong and it'll it'll struggle at best.
Again, you have to define it for yourself And, and I would say raise the standard in almost every
11:51
case of say we could, we could all raise the standard a bit and, and make sure it's solid.
Because if we think, well, no, we, we get along of of course there's fighting.
11:59
All families fight.
No, that's not true.
12:01
And well, you know, there's bickering.
It's always going to.
12:04
No, it's not.
We have to sibling rivalry.
12:06
Yeah, not Trump.
Just because it's.
12:09
Common.
Well, I guess that's the point.
12:10
It's common.
It's average.
12:12
It's mediocre.
So all that garbage that all of your neighbors are saying, or it's all yeah, it's normal.
12:16
That's what kids do.
No, that's what unhealthy kids do.
12:19
I just made a reel today that I posted on Instagram and it basically said that the rule of thumb for
our parenting is that if other parents are doing it, we're not going to do it.
12:30
And that's not to be, you know, like kind of in your face or, or contrarian just for the sake of
being contrarian.
12:37
But it's, it's meant to point out that if you look around at the results that most parents have and
you think I don't want those results, which is definitely something I've done.
12:49
I want results better than that.
Then I'm going to look at what other parents are doing.
12:53
And I'm probably going to do the opposite because in my mind, because I put together cause and
effect saying, oh, parents are doing these things and it's getting these outcome.
13:03
That's what they're getting, right?
So I'm going to do something different in order to get different outcomes.
13:09
And that's kind of our whole underlying approach.
Now, of course, in certain things, there's, you know, no correlation or causation, right?
13:17
So we might do certain things that other parents do because that's not a contributing factor to the
outcomes we're trying to achieve.
13:23
But in the things that really matter, we have to change our methods if we want different outcomes,
right?
13:30
Just like we've talked about.
OK, so let's get into what we do not mean when we're talking about attachment parenting, because
13:38
that is going to help us make this definition of and get really clear about what it actually is and
what we actually mean.
13:45
So we we received an e-mail and I'm going to read parts of it because I don't want to give away too
much information that is personal, but it says your podcast on attachment and moms being touched out
13:56
was fantastic.
My child has zero attachment issues, no senseless crying or tantrums.
14:02
He's still young, but his cousin is only a few months older and has had hours of inconsolable crying
while he is, for example, left at grandma's house overnight and this began at four months old.
14:16
It's insane, very sad.
I do want to say, and you probably know that any way of life that is good in principle, and in this
14:27
specifically, she's returning referring to attachment.
Parenting can be twisted and mangled by broken people, especially parents.
14:36
Absolutely true.
And I guess that's why we're doing this episode in particular.
14:41
So hey, let's make sure this gets applied well.
Correctly.
14:45
Effectively, my mom was all about attachment because she was adopted and neglected.
She adopted my sisters and one of them struggled more than the others to attach.
14:57
But she did something, and I will never say that she did the right thing.
So let's pause there for a minute because there's some unique situations here that are, are
15:06
difficult, very challenging.
So one, the mom was adopted and that's tough.
15:10
So right there immediately there's some attachment issues immediately right, if you're adopted
because.
15:16
By default, attachment disorders.
Yep.
15:18
Yeah.
So there's going.
15:19
To be a lack of proper attachment.
Exactly.
15:21
So in the adoption process, there's just, there's no getting around it.
There's there.
15:25
Will be attachment disorders.
Attachment disorders.
15:27
And so the key is to compensate for that and rebuild, like we talked about in the last episode,
rebuild all that in healthy ways.
15:36
But and we also talked in the last episode how you have to have enough self-awareness to know where
you yourself are coming from.
15:41
So if you have if you personally have attachment disorders.
Which here's the surprising news.
15:48
Ha ha, most of us do.
Right, exactly.
15:51
So you have to recognize what yours are and make sure you're not overcompensating or
undercompensating.
15:58
If, if your parents did something off or you're struggling, you feel empty.
You're like, well, I feel empty.
16:03
So I'm going to make sure I smother my child, right?
And that's, that's really literally what happens.
16:09
You're like, I feel empty, so I'm going to smother you.
Well, it creates the same emptiness.
16:13
It's just a different strategies, different tactic.
It doesn't work.
16:18
I I often think of the pendulum, you know, and when a pendulum swings, it goes from 1 extreme to
another.
16:27
And that often is what's happening in our parenting relationships.
We are going from what our parents did and then swinging way over to the other side and doing
16:38
something completely opposite when what we really need is the middle way, right?
Kind of like Buddha talks about or the yen and the Yang, like we have to find the middle and do the
16:47
balance of the yin and Yang.
That's where we find the right application of the approaches that we're trying to implement.
16:57
SO1 extreme on one end or the other is not what we're after.
We're trying to be centered and balanced and in the middle.
17:05
So then when there's difficult situations, for whatever reason, adoption is one of them.
So you have a parent that was adopted and fills the struggle adopting their children, which there's
17:20
going to be attachment disorder there.
So, so now you've got it coming from two places.
17:25
It's amplified as is always the case, the outcomes we want, the results we want are earned.
Attachment is earned.
17:37
Not forced as we'll get.
Exactly.
17:39
So you can't force it.
What happens is we think there's a challenge here, there's a difficulty.
17:46
I'm going to make this happen and we try to force it and it obviously creates the opposite effect.
It's the same as I want my kids to be good kids, to be obedient kids.
17:59
So I'm going to be very, nobody says this, but they end up being very controlling.
I'm going to force obedience.
18:06
I'm going to force goodness on these kids because I want them to be good.
It literally creates the opposite.
18:11
It pushes towards rebellion or resentment.
Even though sometimes on the surface it can appear to be creating the outcomes they want.
18:21
And This is why it can be confusing because if you look at the family and you look at the surface
outcomes, you're like, oh, it's working for them.
18:29
They're getting the results that they want.
But if you look behind the scenes and behind closed doors and in the corners and resources, resource
18:39
recesses and dark places, you see there's attachment disorders, there's mental and emotional I'll
illness, You know, there's a lot of this going on behind the scenes.
18:53
And then parents are wondering, well, why is my child struggling with anxiety or depression?
Or why are why can't they?
18:59
Why aren't they more resilient?
Why aren't they more confident?
19:02
A lot of those issues are stemming directly from these techniques that may appear to work on the
surface but are really causing this damage behind this door.
19:12
And those doors and, and even, well, there's another challenging situation we see often is that the
the youth or young adult or sometimes even full grown adult.
19:23
Now, they would never ever say it to their parents, but they tell you and me often, like I can't
stand my parents.
19:29
I don't, I want nothing to do with them.
I don't like it.
19:32
And sometimes, like I hate my parents.
I literally hate my parents.
19:36
But the parents don't know that.
They don't know they think we're winning.
19:39
We're great parents.
This is fantastic.
19:42
Our kids are doing this and that and the other and the kids are like, no, I can't stand you.
But they never say that to them because they're just being kind and thoughtful and and they comply
19:50
with the parents when they're around the parents, they do the things.
They say the things because they don't want, you know, they don't want to have to deal with it.
19:56
But as soon as they get away from them, they're like, I'm going to do whatever.
I'll do the opposite.
19:59
I can't stand my parents.
And so parents who think they're winning are losing because they're getting superficial.
20:06
Feedback.
And then unfortunately, what we happen, what we see happen is what we called the train wreck, where
20:13
something becomes a catalyst that blows it up and there's a suicide attempt or there's a crime,
jail, arrests, addiction, you know, these horrible things that happen.
20:26
And parents are like, what happened?
I thought things were going so well.
20:30
And, you know, they end up talking to you and you're like, well, yeah, here was the warning signs
here, here, here and here that we know leads to this train wreck.
20:38
But if you don't do something about it before, well, then you don't know it's a problem until it
actually becomes a big, major problem.
20:45
And so our approach is always like, well, no, let's spot the mile markers.
Let's spot the red flags along the way so we can prevent those big things from happening because we
20:56
notice and we know what happens to lead up to those.
That's where we want to work.
21:01
Our area of focus for us and what we try to teach to our clients is always focusing on the early
warning signs to prevent those things, OK.
21:10
Parents resist it so much our our friends here.
She's saying she, she's like I, I even cause so I teach habits for successful life for teens and
21:18
it's phenomenal.
Like it's just, it's transformative and, and her teens are in it.
21:21
It's like they love it.
It's so good.
21:22
It's amazing that the change is incredible.
It's like I even offer our friends and other people in our community like I'll pay for the class for
21:29
your kid to be in it like, and she's like the parents just won't do anything for their kids.
They won't invest.
21:36
In fact, they don't have to invest.
She's like, I was willing to pay for it.
21:38
It's like parents just won't do things to help their kids get better results.
I know it's like it seems like extra work or.
21:48
They wait until there's a strike problem and then they have to pay thousands, 10s of thousands per
month for rehab.
21:54
But you're not.
Willing to invest in a class that can help prevent problems?
21:59
Yeah, it's crazy.
OK, so it's it's insane.
22:02
But let's go back to her question.
So she's saying essentially that her mother was adopted.
22:07
She adopted her sisters.
One of them struggled with attachment and she did something which we she hasn't gotten to yet, that
22:13
she won't forgive her for because she thinks it's not the right thing.
And what it was was she forced cuddle time with my sister who would be screaming her head off until
22:24
the child or sister submitted in silent defeat.
It was my sister's therapist that suggested it and it was called holding time.
22:36
Now, this is so fascinating to me because when I was either a new mother or not yet a parent,
because we adopted our first and Greg and I lived in this tiny little farming town and this tiny
22:50
little place in Utah.
And I would every week go to the book, go to the library and check out tons and tons and tons of
22:58
books on birth and parenting and homeschooling.
Like everything I could think of.
23:02
I would have a whole stack.
I would bring them home, I would read them all, and then I would take them back.
23:06
One of the books that I read, and for whatever reason it really stood out to me, was called Holding
Time.
23:13
It described this scenario that she's talking about.
The whole premise of the book was in order to bond or attach with your child, you would hold them
23:23
until they submitted to you.
So you would if there was something that happened.
23:28
That's a bad idea.
Wondering.
23:31
Where I'm going with this and you before you turn off this episode, no, that's a bad idea.
And now the idea was though, that you would, it would create a deeper bond between parent and child
23:44
because the parent, the child would be upset.
The parent would hold them and would keep holding them as they got more and more and more and more
23:51
and more upset and would not let them go until they finally stopped trying and gave up and
submitted.
24:02
And then at that point supposedly the deep bonding was supposed to happen.
Now this doesn't work on so many levels.
24:09
Like the psychology behind this is just, it's insane messed, but.
That's that should be obvious, so I want to just point out that it's obvious.
24:17
Maybe it's not to some people.
So, but that's why I want to point out, it's like no human being wants to be controlled, yes.
24:23
No human being, even babies, no human being wants to be controlled.
We are born with the desire for freedom.
24:29
So when you control them, when you force any human being, oh, it is either going to inspire fight
rebellion or deep resentment.
24:40
So when the child's not, I think how just psychologically that disturbing is because it's the
child's so small to take AI don't know 3 year old.
24:49
You're larger than them.
You.
24:50
Hold him.
So there's no way you're so much stronger than they are.
24:53
There's nothing they can do.
So you're literally, they're just defeated and they fight, they try to do everything they can and
25:00
finally an exhaustion, they just stopped like undefeated.
Look what you've just done, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually.
25:09
You're killing their human spirit, Yes, basically.
It's.
25:12
Like it's very, very, very disturbing and very sad.
Now I forgot what I was going to say but.
25:18
So I'll, well, I'll go on.
So the idea of holding your kids for attachment is phenomenal.
25:23
I love that.
Like we love holding our kids.
25:24
I hold our kids all the time when especially when they're little is up on the lap and, and hold
them.
25:29
Like it made me think of times we had backpacks, we had front packs and backpacks and I would walk.
I, I've put in hundreds and hundreds of miles carrying my kids and they're just right on me and
25:41
we're not having adventures and experiences and seeing the world and seeing nature and, and
interacting with people.
25:45
And they're right there next to me.
And like I, I'll cuddle with them.
25:48
Even still with my, our 11 year old, 8 year old, I'll read at night and they just cuddle up next to
me on a couch and we're reading to them like they're still all this holding.
25:57
That's a wonderful thing, but you don't force it.
You don't say, oh, this kid doesn't like me.
26:03
We're not attached.
So come here, child, and I'll hold you until you attach.
26:08
That's doesn't make sense at all.
It's not holding until they attach.
26:11
It's holding until there's defeat, and then you've you've ruined it even farther.
Yes, and I'm I'm not imagining that.
26:17
Of course every parent out there that listened to our episode about attachment is assuming like, oh,
that's what I'm going to do, hold my children till until they give up.
26:25
But it's worth addressing because there's a book out there and there's therapists saying you should
do.
26:29
This that's insane illustrative of the problem of 1 all the advice out in the world that is actually
not good advice.
26:38
And and this is one example because there's lots of parenting books about sleep training and letting
children babies cry it out.
26:46
Because in in a way, that's the same thing that's happening whether you're holding your child until
they give up or you leave your child alone and let them cry until they give up.
26:56
It's really the same thing.
You're breaking the human spirit because they reach a point where they realize it's pointless.
27:03
If I.
This is not a safe world.
27:04
Because no one will respond to me.
It's not a safe world.
27:08
There's literally a part of them psychologically that dies.
It gets defeated.
27:12
And so, you know, whether it's that I've, I've also heard of and read books about having babies on
these very strict schedules.
27:20
So it doesn't matter if they're they cry and they're hungry at noon, their feeding time is at 1, so
they're going to have to wait.
27:26
Again, this is literally advice that's out there.
The.
27:29
Most ideas I've ever heard.
As though, as though any human body is going to be hungry at the same time every day, right?
27:38
Or the.
The dumbest A.
27:39
Baby that doesn't have a prefrontal cortex is going to be able to self regulate to wait until it's
their feeding time to to want to eat like it's just.
27:49
We've your parents there too.
It's like, well no, my kids don't get snacks, they only do mealtimes.
27:52
Like, where'd you come up with that dumb idea?
Where'd you come up with a stupid idea of three meals a day?
27:56
Right?
Where'd you come up with that?
27:58
Like this is it's so built.
All.
28:01
Right.
And but it's like, wait a minute.
28:03
Nobody stopped to question like what?
Wait a minute, Just stop and think for a minute.
28:08
What are the chances that every human has the same nutritional needs at the same time every day,
right?
28:17
It's zero.
And every brain is functioning differently.
28:21
Everybody's functioning different.
Everybody is different.
28:24
We all have different needs, right?
And we all think.
28:27
There's diversity.
Let's talk about biological diversity.
28:30
Like every child you have has a different biological makeup and has different needs.
So we cannot treat every child the same and we can't have the exact same approach, schedule, routine
28:41
that works for every one of them.
So the underlying idea behind this concept that we're discussing withholding time, I think connects
28:51
to the principle of honoring and respecting individual free will.
Because in all of the parenting strategies and techniques that we teach, behind all of them is our
29:05
respect for our children's free will.
Like whether that comes to attaching, whether that comes to eating, whether that comes to how they
29:14
spend their time during the day, whether that comes to whatever.
Whatever topic it is, we approach it from this place of ultimately we respect their individual will
29:25
and we're not going to do something that violates that.
That means crying it out.
29:30
We're not going to let them cry it out because especially when they're helpless and you know there's
nothing they can do.
29:36
We are the ones that have to do the thing for them if they we're not going to force them to cry
themselves to sleep because that violates their free will.
29:44
That's not what they want.
They want and need psychologically to be attached and connected to us, to be near us while they're
29:52
sleeping.
So when they're crying out, even as a toddler or even a little bit older for some kids, like if
29:59
they're crying out, like that's a symptom, right?
It's a sign to us.
30:03
Like hey, I need help Co regulating I I I need some meat need is not being met like help me out here
need help.
30:10
So they're clean for help and many parents are like you're annoying me, you're bothering me, you're
crying.
30:14
Go cry by yourself.
Is like that's the last thing you need to do is like go off into solitary confinement and and deal
30:20
with your issues.
They can't.
30:21
They're too little and it's just creating more problems.
Behind all of the things we're talking about needs to be this respective free will now.
30:30
People are people, no matter how small, and we've always lived by that, like the littlest ones.
Like I will respect a little child because that is a sovereign human being that needs to be
30:41
respected.
But to be clear and not misunderstood, let us talk about what that does not mean.
30:49
Because or as one example, there's this reel I've seen on Instagram.
It went viral.
30:55
It's a very popular and it was satire.
She was making fun of this idea.
31:00
But but it exists because my daughter, actually my oldest daughter, she works with, she did work as
like a nanny and there was a woman she knew who had this approach.
31:11
And it's essentially this idea of like, I'm not going to do anything without my child's permission,
right?
31:17
So this reel that's making fun of it is they're running around Costco and she's like, you know, it's
this whole I'm not going to even touch you without your permission.
31:25
So you're throwing a tantrum on the floor.
But is it OK if I touch you?
31:30
And if I if I comfort you, is that OK?
Oh, that's not OK.
31:33
I'm so sorry.
Will you forgive me?
31:35
You know that is not what we're talking about.
They were not talking about giving your children license and individual will to do whatever it is
31:45
that they want or please or whatever comes into their head.
It's not about not having boundaries.
31:51
It's not about free reign, right?
Free reign parenting of like they literally have reign of the house to do everything and anything
32:00
and create and.
Tyrants because you're like, wait a minute, you're using a 5 year old brain.
32:05
Or a three-year old brain.
Or just.
32:08
Wreck everything.
And that's why we have parents.
32:12
That's why children have parents, because somebody's supposed to have a fully developed brain here
and make decisions, set up boundaries to keep children safe and teach them and guide them and mentor
32:22
them and coach them.
So yes, we lead, we guide, we set boundaries and safeties.
32:28
And yes, we set up, you know, hey, no, that's, we don't do that.
I know you think that's OK because you're 4, but that's not OK.
32:36
And it's my job to teach you because children actually feel safer when they have very clearly
defined boundaries.
32:42
Like that's what provides their mental and emotional security.
And so if we again swing the pendulum to the other extreme and think I'm gonna respect my children's
32:52
free will.
So that means they can do whatever because unless they give me permission, I can't instill
32:57
boundaries.
No, that's not what that means.
33:00
So I want to use one example of how this plays out, specifically related to holding time.
Now, you may not recall this because before we started this, I was like, remember I read that book
33:10
on holding time And he was like, no, I don't.
I didn't.
33:12
I remember reading the book and I know that I must have told you about it because I remember us
using certain strategies in an adjusted way from that book, one of which was when our youngest
33:27
children were toddlers.
Now you have to also remember that we had four children when our fourth child was born.
33:34
My oldest child was 4, so we had four children under the age of four.
We had a lot of toddlers at once.
33:40
One of the strategies we would use that I feel was effective at the time was if one of them got
upset, and this was back when we had tantrums, right?
33:50
We would we, or specifically you, you would take them and you would hold them until they calmed.
Down.
33:58
Well, let me give a specific details because I've even shared this with a few parents.
Occasionally parents reach out to me and they have a child who's particularly difficult or.
34:07
Belligerent.
Yeah, well, and, and kids goes bonkers is like breaking things, destroying things, hurting other
34:15
siblings, like going completely bonkers.
And so this was a strategy I used extremely sparingly.
34:22
I I mean, maybe, maybe 10 times total ever with seven children is when the kid went completely
bonkers instead of, you know, banishing them to to some of the room where they go break things or
34:35
hurt people or do whatever.
Yeah.
34:37
Some other punishment.
I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm going to hold you and, and I was, this was critically important.
34:43
I was in a good state.
I was so cool.
34:45
I'm not, I'm not angry.
Like, hey, buddy, I'm going to hold you here because you're just out of control right now.
34:51
And so I'm going to hold you because I love you and and we're going to work through this right now
together, but you're being absolutely unreasonable.
34:59
And I'm talking to them more.
They're they're like trying to pick and punch, fight and pinch head.
35:04
Butt use.
Yeah, they're trying to head butt and like I'm I'm strong.
35:07
And so I didn't squeeze them.
You didn't hurt them.
35:11
I didn't hurt them.
I I was able to wrap my arms around them without squeezing and leave my arms in place because I have
35:17
the strength to do that.
So.
35:19
Talking in a calm voice, calming them down and telling them how to calm down like.
Take care of rest.
35:26
As soon as you're calm, I'm going to let you go.
As soon as you stop going ballistic, you are free.
35:31
The the moment you chillax, you're free.
They see that you need you're just out of control.
35:36
So take a couple of these breaths, calm down and you're good.
And and they would it only took a short time.
35:41
They were just like, and they realized like, hey, I'm serious here.
Like you're out of control.
35:46
Like you're going bonkers, kiddo.
And so I'm going to hold you until you calm down and they'll calm down and let them go Boom.
35:52
Yeah, it's sad.
So it never, it was never like 5 minutes of me like this wrestling match, squeezing, threatening,
35:58
angry, upset.
It should have.
36:00
Been once or twice with all of our children when it went.
Maybe with?
36:05
You 5 or 10 minutes.
Never happened with me.
36:09
No, it never happened with me because it maybe it seems that long when they're in it, but they they.
Never timed it.
36:15
Because no child wants this.
We have active kids.
36:17
They're not going to want to just sit there and be like, oh, I have to sit perfectly still.
Dad means business.
36:23
They're like, this sucks.
I'm going to calm down and then boom.
36:27
Yeah.
So that's the point.
36:28
The point is they don't like it.
And because they don't like it, they want to do whatever they need to do to get out of it, which
36:39
just happens to be calming down, which is what you want and which helps them because being calm
helps them.
36:48
And every time they would calm down and then they would hug me.
They would want to cuddle.
36:53
They'd climb back on by my lap.
And it was yes.
36:56
It was like, they're like, OK, I'm calm.
And then they're calm, like, hey, come here.
36:59
Then.
Then they wanted me to hold them in loving.
37:01
It was immediately like they went from being held to like chillax to, oh, can I hold you now?
Like, yes, of course.
37:07
And that was just amazing, real bonding.
That tactic was extremely rare and only when the kids lost their bananas.
37:14
I mean, they were bonkers.
But I do remember with some of the kids that there was a period of time where you had to use it,
37:24
let's say 3 or 4 times in a row over a period of, I don't know, months.
And that was enough to help them learn how to regulate themselves better.
37:36
So that then the need for that was prevented, if that makes sense.
So that's one of the boundaries we're talking about, where if you do have these boundaries in place,
37:47
if your kid pushes up against the fence and they realize this is a fence and dad's going to hold me
physically to resist me or to to control me until I control myself, they learn to control themselves
38:00
before they ever get to that fence, right?
And I think that was only with maybe two of our kids.
38:06
Well, yeah, because.
So out of seven, just two of them had that kind of personality to just go.
38:11
All out.
But I also think that, well, one of course, our own parenting strategies improve.
38:17
So we were better at attachment and we were better at preventing meltdowns.
And because if the older kids learn something, it's like then it gets passed on to the other.
38:29
So it's like it, it becomes a part of the family culture.
And so those techniques aren't needed as much because the family culture is already established.
38:38
Now, if you already have a child who is crazy like this, then you might need a strategy like this
and you might need to do it for a period of time, especially if they're older, so that they learn to
38:49
understand that, yes, you have boundaries, here's the boundary.
And if you hold those boundaries, they learn to respect them and more importantly, they feel much
38:58
safer.
Almost every time now, yeah, almost every time.
39:01
Now that parent comes to me with a child who's just kind of uncontrollable and out of control.
I can't think of a single exception where it wasn't related to sleep and food.
39:16
Lack of attachment.
Well, yeah, yes, but the primary factors were sleeping food.
39:21
And we didn't know that, you know, back then we learned all this stuff like now any time it comes to
me, it's like the very first factors for any kind of behavioral stuff, we're looking at sleep, make
39:28
sure they're really getting enough sleep and very often they're not.
Or make sure they're eating good food.
39:32
Very often they're not.
And then we're going to say, well, what's, how's your connection with your?
39:37
And how much attention are they getting from you?
Basically Exactly.
39:41
OK I'm going to continue with her e-mail.
So you know it was called holding time.
39:45
We went off on that and she says it was horrific.
I get sick just thinking about that poor baby, sweating and red in the face while she slowly gave up
39:57
her will and submitted to my monster of a mother.
So don't do that.
40:02
Don't do that, because if your child gives up their will, trust me, that is not a good thing and at
some point in their life they're going to resent you for that.
40:13
She continues.
I forgot to add that this sister is my mom's thought sleeve.
40:18
She quite literally cannot think for herself on any subject unless she clears it first with mom.
She's 20 this year and she has never spent a day away from my parents.
40:31
No college, no career, no boyfriend, nothing.
Just the mommying they call home schooling out in their farm, totally isolated from everything.
40:42
Which is something else I wanted to mention.
Offering resources and then throwing your kids into a flood of possibilities doesn't work.
40:52
We she failed to teach us any kind of routine or schedule or habits and never set a good example of
how to use it herself.
40:58
OK so this is essentially talking about the idea of boundaries.
Like we can't just bond with our kids or provide resources for them or whatever without modeling it
41:08
for them, without setting up the clear boundaries and expectations and.
Then systems and strategies and systems teaching your kids while they're in your house, you've got
41:17
to teach them all the systems and strategies that work for every aspect of life.
So I mean you think through physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, social, financial, they've got
41:26
to have systems and strategies for all of those things.
So when they turn 18/19/20 and they're ready to launch, they've, they have all those things, they've
41:33
got all those tools they've been practicing it for years, literally years like, Oh yeah, I know I do
that I've been doing it for a very long time.
41:40
You show them the way, you give them the tools, you help them practice, you coach them through it so
they get better at it.
41:46
It's literal skill development so that they're ready to launch and they're autonomous instead of
like in this case.
41:53
And in many cases, we have these 20 year old babies.
They can't think for themselves, they can't make decisions, they can't solve problems, they can't
42:03
figure things out.
They won't go anywhere because they're afraid or underdeveloped under skilled.
42:08
So she continues because she's like, another thing to be careful about when you guys are talking
about your kids needing you until they're 25.
42:17
Now.
I don't.
42:18
I mean, maybe the way we've worded it has come across like that.
I don't, I hope we haven't said that our kids need us until they're 25.
42:26
What I have we have talked about and, and the reason why we talk about it is because, and I grew up
with the center saying too, we've been taught to believe societally that at 18 you're an adult.
42:38
And that's just not true.
That's actually a misconception.
42:43
Adulthood officially starts later and it varies for every person.
Like, there's no hard number, but scientifically, generally, the prefrontal cortex isn't fully
42:54
developed until 24 or 25.
Now, can you start becoming an adult before that?
42:59
Of course, like you, the more you take on responsibility, the more you mature and the more you
become adult.
43:04
Like.
So when we talk about until 25, what we're trying to do is help shift the current paradigm that oh,
43:11
at 18 you're an adult and now you should be ready to do your own thing.
That may be true for some, but some may not be ready at 18.
43:19
And again, because every child is unique and individual, we have to respect those differences and
not feel like Oh my child is a failure because they're 18 and they are still at home or what not.
43:32
What a silly idea.
Even worse, OK, because I want to clarify on this too, because I've had people say to me on my
43:37
Instagram, sometimes they're like, well, there's nothing wrong with staying home.
And I, and I would agree with that because if you look at history and if you look at other cultures,
43:45
many, in fact, we had this woman from South Africa who's like, it's normal in South Africa to live
with your parents until you're 30 or older.
43:53
But the point is, and the difference is you're a contributing member to the family household, not
just someone who sits at home and plays video games while your mommy takes care of you.
44:02
That's the major difference.
Your child can stay at home, that's fine, but they need to be maturing and progressing and
44:08
contributing to the family and to their own growth and development, not just being taken care.
Of real palpable progress.
44:17
So they are pursuing education, they're starting businesses, they're building relationships.
They're really getting after it.
44:24
That's a sign of a healthy young adult right there.
Like they are moving.
44:29
So the fact that they might live in your house for a little bit, for a few years, OK, whatever.
But they are growing and prepping for life.
44:37
That's phenomenal.
What I was going to say earlier is what a silly idea.
44:41
What a what a just stupid notion to think that if as adults we have to ask for advice or help, that
somehow that's bad or wrong.
44:51
Like as long as as long as you are leveling up, you need mentors.
Well, and that's true of everyone, that's true of us, that's.
45:01
What I'm saying like so I'm like.
That never goes away if you're. 50 and you're like, I'm pushing a new level here and I, I need some
45:07
insight and wisdom from somebody who's gone farther than me.
That doesn't, that doesn't make me less of a man or like somehow incapable.
45:18
If, if you feel like, if somebody's like they're a millionaire, but they want to be a Decca
millionaire, they better start asking, right?
45:24
It's like, Oh, I can't ask cuz that that would make me look uneducated, that makes me look weak or
dumb.
45:31
So I'm, I'm not going to ask.
Well, OK, then you condemn yourself to your current level.
45:35
You got somebody with hundreds of millions, but they want to make a billion.
They, they're asking questions like they're seeking those next levels.
45:42
So there's absolutely nothing wrong with our young adult children.
Like still chasing, still growing, still looking for guidance and help in mentoring and coaching.
45:53
It's a great.
Thing.
45:53
Well, right.
And with that premise that you just gave, that would really continue for a lifetime because as long
45:59
as we have lived experience that we can share with our children, well then, yeah, when they're 50
and they're asking us for advice, that's a good thing.
46:08
That's not a bad thing.
Like that's how it should ideally work.
46:11
I'm 25 years older than our oldest.
That's 25 years.
46:16
I better have made that count.
And if I didn't, that's on me.
46:20
That's an epic failure if I've.
So in life, we have two options.
46:25
You can level up or you can level off.
Most people level off.
46:29
Most parents level off.
So no wonder their kids stop coming to them for advice or guidance because you're like, well, I'm
46:36
going to go somewhere else because my parents are going nowhere, doing nothing.
They've leveled off in life.
46:40
So that's how you lose influence.
That's how you lose your kids don't come back to you.
46:44
It's like, why?
Why would I go to you?
46:46
I hear that all the time from adults, like full grown men.
They're like, I can't go to my dad, I can't go to my mom.
46:52
Like they don't know any of this stuff.
When I want to really lean in and level up and and solve big problems, you know, they're kind,
46:58
they're loving, but I can't go to them.
They don't, they have no idea.
47:01
I hear that all the time, but that's not what I'm doing.
I'm going to keep leveling up like crazy.
47:05
So I'm always going to be 25 years ahead of my oldest and more with the others.
So I'm going to keep chasing greatness so that my kids are always wanting to come be like dude, mom
47:15
and dad are crushing it.
I might keep learning from.
47:19
Advice.
Yeah.
47:20
And so, yeah, So I guess if we have given this idea that we're talking about our children always
quote UN quote, needing us, I mean, essentially that's what we mean.
47:30
What you just summarized, you know, our kids needing us or wanting advice from us, is in that mentor
mentee relationship throughout life, which is how life ideally is meant to be lived.
47:42
Like if you think about our ancestors hundreds or thousands of years ago, that's how it worked.
You went to the people in your village or your parents who had more wisdom than you.
47:51
And that's where you learn.
That's who you learn from.
47:54
That's the model we're trying to live here.
Not that as she continues here, this doesn't mean they're totally incapable of going out on their
48:01
own.
No, of course it doesn't mean that.
48:03
And in fact, for for children, they've already been out on their own multiple times.
They've gone out and worked.
48:10
They've lived away from us for months at a time.
You know, they they've been out, but we always welcome them back when they want to come back because
48:19
we see them as still in this transitional phase.
Even our daughter, who's the oldest and 23, almost 23 and married, I still see her in this
48:28
transitional phase of moving into full adulthood completely because of, well, the prefrontal cortex
for one thing.
48:37
But she continues the needs of children from their parents changes.
And I know you guys know this.
48:42
I'm mostly writing this down for my own benefit.
And that's true.
48:44
Like we just laid out like they're going to need us, quote UN quote, different ways in different
ways, but ideally throughout their entire life.
48:51
And that's fine.
My goal, like I said already, I want to be useful.
48:56
I want to be helpful.
I want to be leveling up so much that I'm a resource to them if they want to learn what I'm
49:02
learning, what I'm experiencing, all the trial and error I'm doing for all those years.
I'm not just getting older.
49:08
Like I absolutely refuse to just get older.
I'm getting better.
49:13
And so you know, I'm reading, I'm reading a book a week, Let's go.
I mean, I'm trying new things.
49:19
I'm leveling up constantly, so I have I have something to give.
So if they want it, if I have a good relationship with them, they're going to want it.
49:25
Yeah, well, and she says, I'm 29 this year and I still wish I could, I could have good advice from
my parents like you already mentioned this on, you know, the odd life question.
49:37
But I want advice from them, not direction.
And specifically, if you have a poor relationship with your parents, their advice can come across as
49:46
some sort of control over you, where if you have the strong attachment and you know your parents the
strong attachment, with the respect of free will, you know that your parents advice for you is in
50:01
your very best interest.
And ultimately, they're going to respect your choices, right?
50:06
Well, good mentoring is is more questions and less declarative statements and lecturing.
So even with our kids that are young adults, I rarely tell them what they should do.
50:15
I ask them questions and and sometimes they're like they get frustrated.
Like just tell me Emma.
50:19
Nope.
You make a decision, you decide.
50:22
But I'm walking them through the options and possibilities, the outcomes, the unintended
consequences.
50:28
I'm doing for them what I wish somebody would have done for me.
I had somebody there.
50:32
So I'm asking a lot of questions and helping them prevent a lot of unnecessary errors and mistakes,
but still leaving the decision in in their, it's in their court.
50:41
So I love what she's saying there.
It's like, just give me some advice.
50:43
Don't tell me what to do.
I love that.
50:46
Yeah, well, and then she just closes.
She says that's actually the reason I listen to your podcast.
50:51
I see you too, as the parents.
I wish I had.
50:54
So thank you.
I just think that's so sweet and thank you very much.
50:57
And that's, that is why we do this, because I, I realize that all of us in the entire world
basically are coming from, because we're all human backgrounds and perfect childhoods.
51:09
And the goal in my mind is to continue to increase that knowledge, the understanding, the skills, so
that we can become better and better and better parents generationally so that each generation gets
51:22
even better.
Because I know even for me, my dad was a better parent than my mom then they had been parented.
51:31
And I'm grateful for that generational shift that they made, right?
I'm grateful for the foundation that they built for me so that I can add to it and build upon it.
51:40
I remember even my dad once talking about the whole little story of, you know, if we we stand on the
shoulders of those that came before us.
51:50
And that's kind of the idea I have.
But in that context, it's our job now.
51:54
Now we are the adults, Now we are the parents.
And as the parents, it's our role to pass on the best legacy we can of good parenting to our
52:06
children so that they can build upon that and we can have even better relationships and change in
the world to make the world a better.
52:14
Place Amen get the skills very specific parenting skills and it makes all the difference.
Totally alters your outcomes, gets different results.
52:26
Love that is the.
Is the bounding members options still available for a new parenting course?
52:33
Hopefully, actually, I don't know, by the time they listen to this episode, it may be over.
But if it's not over, you should definitely take advantage of it.
52:42
If not, just get in anyways.
This parenting course is.
52:45
Right now, because we're we're going to Scotland this week.
Well, OK, by the time you listen to this episode, we will be in Scotland.
52:53
We will be on our couples trip in Scotland when we.
So yeah, it'll still be available.
52:58
When we get back from that Scotland trip is when we will start, let me say continue cuz.
We've already started.
53:05
It we've already started it, we've already started creating our extraordinary parent mentoring
method course and we will continue it and work on finishing it once we get back from Scotland.
53:15
But right now we have the founding member option available, which I think you can still take
advantage of.
53:22
So I would do that before it's to like.
Get in This stuff is awesome.
53:26
It's so needed.
The work we do in our homes is the most important work there is, and it will be the most rewarding
53:33
work as well.
And it can be lifetime work if we do it well.
53:40
We'll keep a good relationship with the children for the rest of our lives, which is what I want.
And enjoyable work, Yeah, it doesn't have to be unpleasant.
53:47
Unpleasant and.
And yes.
53:49
That's what tells me too.
Many people, too many parents.
53:52
I think it is.
It's just.
53:53
Terrible.
They feel like parenting is miserable and it doesn't have to be that.
53:57
Wait, I honestly enjoy.
I love being a parent and I find it to be enjoyable work because I've gained the skills that makes
54:04
every day.
Yeah, I love being a fun, beautiful, I love mentoring my kids.
54:10
So a parenting should be one of the greatest joys in your life, not one of the biggest unpleasant
burdens.
54:15
So if it is an unpleasant burden, it's just because you're doing it wrong.
And that's good news because they're like, OK, I just get a different skill, a different tool, a
54:23
different lever, a different tactic, a new system, a new strategy.
And that's what Rachel are doing all the time.
54:29
We're, we're sharing what we've learned from decades of study and coaching people all around the
world and like, hey, this stuff.
54:36
Hands on experience.
Yeah, it just works.
54:38
So love you guys.
Reach Upper.
