#277 Killing Sacred Cows: Why So Many People Are Leaving the Church

Rachel Denning (00:01.557)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are host, Greg and Rachel Denning. And today we are excited, and I at least am a little bit concerned, because this topic has the potential to be misunderstood. And we don't want to be misunderstood. We want to be able to speak openly and plainly without being misunderstood. Which.

In some ways it's not possible, think, because misunderstanding is part of the human experience of the human experience and of conversation in general. Misunderstanding happens just because of the way we define words. So when we say something like church, we all have a specific definition for church and gospel. God, even you say, well, this is God. And each has a different kind of meaning and feeling they attach to that.

It's kind of like the iconic Jordan Peterson when people say, you believe in God? And he's like, it depends on what you mean by believe and what you mean by God. Exactly. And you sometimes think that's you're being ridiculous. But I think he's really put his finger on it. Yeah. is maybe some of the where some of the problems are coming from that people are running into is because I might define believe differently than.

you define belief and I might define God differently than you define God. We each have this image in our minds of what it means to us and so yeah we have to be able to I think identify and give definitions to those types of words so that we know exactly what we're talking about. And the same is true with spirituality and religion and religious practices and a relationship with God all those things. The additional complexity comes with

what we can refer to as sacred cows that we each get.

Rachel Denning (02:01.437)
attached emotionally and mentally to certain things and certain ideas and they become so they're safe. Well, they're sacred things that you're like, hey, that's sacred and special and it to be treated that way. And I totally agree. Then there are certain things that, yeah, they become untouchable or it's easy for all of us to become blinded by something because we're so emotionally attached to it or we put so much meaning on or whatever that like, hey, no, you never you never talk about that.

You never question whether it's being done well or not. It's it's untouchable. And it's the sacred cow. Yeah, so the idea comes from, you know, in India, they literally have sacred cows and the cows, we lived in India for five months and they just wander around through the streets, they the garbage, but they're sacred and they're not allowed to be interfered with or killed.

treated like cattle. But I think, was it someone who wrote a marketing book about it or something? Killing sacred cows. sacred cows. And you know, his whole point was there are ideas and beliefs that we have that we think they're sacred in that, like you were saying, we don't let anyone touch them or attack them or criticize them or examine them because no, no, no, that's just off limits. And I think especially as we get into this discussion about religion and church,

I know I had a whole bunch of sacred cows and I know many people have sacred cows where it's just this certain idea that like you're not allowed to examine it. You're not allowed to question it. You're not allowed to doubt it because that feels like you're killing this sacred cow. And at least in my own journey I found that going through that process is very, I would actually say it's faith building.

even though it initially feels very terrifying and like threatening to faith. feels like you're killing faith. But really if you really study philosophy and religion and psychology, I think it's that process of doubting, questioning, killing sacred cows that actually allows us to build and strengthen a real deep abiding faith. But only

Rachel Denning (04:18.153)
And I want to emphasize this with as much emphasis as I can. Only if we're willing to walk the entire labyrinth. Only if we're willing to go all the way. If I just step back and start pointing fingers and criticizing and like, that's not very good and that's not very good. And then I just walk away off into the field. Whatever. I go walk into the wilderness. I miss It's not helpful at all. criticism that's not.

It's not purposeful. It's not intentional to any end. Exactly. But if I'm willing to examine and question and walk the whole circle, that actually strengthens faith. Right. And you're referring to, we love to refer to the labyrinth, specifically the Chartreuse labyrinth in France, which is on the floor of a cathedral, where to arrive at the center of the labyrinth, you have to walk the entire thing.

Labyrinth is different than a maze a maze has dead ends and it takes you places You don't want to go and it doesn't lead to anywhere specific where a labyrinth Begins in one place and ends in another but you walk the entire distance so you go north south east west up and down until you reach the center and And that it to me is this process that I'm describing or I'm that has to be the process of faith Yeah, you walk the labyrinth you ask all the questions you go into the dark scary places

you shine light in the corners. That's the process of building faith. But I think if we continue to live in this state of mind where we don't question, we don't, we're not willing to kill the sacred cows, we're not willing to ask the hard questions, then we remain in one little corner of the labyrinth thinking, no, this is it. This is it. This is the whole thing. Yeah, exactly. right here in this corner. And we're like, no, there's a whole labyrinth. You still haven't walked.

And the truth is actually found in the center, not over here on the outskirts. But the truth has to encompass all of the outskirts. All of them. And so we simultaneously have to be willing to look outside and look inside. Now, I was with you. I had an entire herd of sacred cows that I held sacred and protected. And I was admittedly very, very narrow in my scope of education and understanding.

Rachel Denning (06:43.238)
I looked at one source of all truth and I think maybe we'll touch on that, that no organization, however great, has a monopoly on truth, period. And so as we examine truth and we search for truth,

we get expansion and it strengthens core beliefs, fortifies them, makes them better, but also expands the whole circle of belief. And I would say ultimately any gospel.

encompasses all truth. Right. And that's like, we get so threatened like, yeah, but that person or that organization said it so it can't be true. Well, truth is truth. It's great. And I don't think, again, I don't think any person or any organization has all truth. so I think a lot of them have.

have truth and have lots of truth. Yes. And we ought to be learning from them all. than others, se. Agreed. I would agree. But no one has all of the truth. Right. And so then on a journey of deep spiritual growth, in this case for this conversation, and becoming a whole developed being, which I think is the purpose of life, then we ought to be voraciously seeking truth anywhere and everywhere.

Like I'm going out looking for truth and I'm going to expand and grow and come across new things. But again, I have to be willing to question. Well, and I think that kind of ties into what it is we want to talk about today because essentially we want to talk about why are people leaving the church. And when we talk about the church, especially in this instance, I want to go in more than that. But OK, but in this case,

Rachel Denning (08:45.941)
when we're talking about the church, love the definition given by Eric Metaxas in his book, A Letter to the American Church. Which you all should read. Everyone should read It is phenomenal. It's a phenomenal book. But his definition was, you are a member of the American Church if you are a Christian in the United States. That was specifically his definition. I would expand that to, in this case,

a Christian anywhere in the world, but also, and I think we'll touch on this. So I guess to clarify that, the Christian church then, this is a simple, simple definition. The Christian church is anyone who believes in Christ. If you believe in Christ, then you belong to Christ's church in the big broad definition. matter which church you belong to, that's his big broad definition. I think we are going to touch on at least today that

what we're discussing not only applies to Christianity, we've also seen it in Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam. Like we've seen it in a lot of places around the world because I feel it's a global phenomenon that's happening worldwide of this kind of move away from religion, at least an organized religion in a way. Although really, you know, in places like Mongolia or...

Turkey or Morocco. I don't know if you ever officially leave Islam. I feel like that's always just a part of your culture. It's just a part of everything. So it's always there. But we have seen it being practiced in different ways over... Like it's changing. The whole culture of the next generation is changing. I think you meant Morocco, not Mongolia. Well, I meant Mongolia as far as Buddhism. Okay, And those practices.

So part of this discussion is like there's a mass exodus out of churches. Yeah. that's, you know, maybe that is a big part of this conversation. I definitely want to talk about how the church is failing to...

Rachel Denning (10:58.879)
rise up to its potential. Which exactly in my mind is the reason, like if we could give the short definition of why people are leaving the church, that would be it. Churches are failing to meet the needs of their members and that's why people are leaving them. Which okay I said because it ties into what you're saying which is essentially

what you had been saying right before that is essentially people are looking for truth. want truth. Human beings want truth. They want to understand the truth. And so they're seeking it. But I think when they begin to seek it in their own religion and they're not finding the answers there, they start looking elsewhere, which is normal and natural. Because as truth -seeking beings,

we are going to search for truth wherever we can find it. And that is a good and healthy thing. Now it can also become a destructive thing because we have seen that as a destructive force in the lives of individuals and families. So it seems frightening because yeah, it is potentially frightening. But if done in the right way, if you walk that labyrinth.

And if you don't throw out things too quickly, you find that it's actually grounding and centering and it helps you to solidify your faith and to have a deeper understanding about why religions exist in the first place. Like what their purpose is and why they are necessary and why they have a role to play in the foundation of society. You begin to see that as you walk this journey. But again, back to the reason of why people are leaving the church. It's because

They're not finding the answers they're looking for. Exactly. And they're not able to have the conversations they need or want to be able to find those answers. Another way to say that is they're not having their needs met. Right? Like we talk about all the time in relationships. Like if your needs aren't being met with parenting, the children's needs aren't being met, if the spouse's needs aren't being met, there's going to be trouble. Exactly. And then in Exodus, things are going to fall apart. And the same is true with this kind of journey. It's like if the needs aren't being met spiritually,

Rachel Denning (13:08.403)
specifically spiritually, intellectually, socially, it's not, if it's not happening, then there's trouble and mediocrity and then boredom or a lack of stimulation or challenge or interest. So today this, this episode is going to sound at least from my side, it's going to sound quite critical of churches and religion, but I want to emphasize.

as boldly as I can, I believe religion is a good thing. In spite of the ugly, ugly history that the religion has, an organized religion. And I've had many conversations with people who just have a whole organized religion because of the negative side effects of it, which is true. It's true. can have such an ugly side effect and it can become so divisive and so... There's a lot of trouble that comes with it. In spite of that, I wholeheartedly believe it's a good thing.

And it's a foundation for a lot of people and for many, many, many people it brings so much goodness into their lives that they wouldn't get otherwise. And it becomes a great resource and extended family. I so many good things. But today in the same mindset that we approach almost everything is like, let's be willing to question it and always ask, is there a better way?

How can this be done better? Where is it failing? And we really started doing that together with how we were going to educate our children. Well, and how we were going to live our lives. mean, that's how our journey started, of course, because we wanted Well, but it started with education. True. You're right. Lifestyle was years later, because that was even another big leap. Right. But it started with education. like, OK, let's.

Let's look at what's available in education. And we saw the institutions and we started looking at the especially because at the time you were actually working in the public education Exactly. I'd worked in private education and public education and I was just looking around, just paying attention. I was willing to be aware and honest at the results because results don't lie. That's how we can effectively... Judge? Judge or quote, attack sacred cows.

Rachel Denning (15:30.333)
is say, look, results don't lie. So if you're like, I love this institution. I love it. I love it. I love it. It's amazing. I went through it. And you're like, yeah, but you're not willing to honestly look at the results. And when you stop and just total gut check, reality check of like, look at the results, you're like, yeah. Without protecting the sacred cows. They're dismal. They're horrible. And so the public school system, which honestly is just the government school system,

sucks It is Horrendous but but because we do want to argue to both points it it does provide a necessary safety net for Many people and that's the point of it. What's the safety net for all people for society, right? It's a safety net so that even if the poorest person in the country did nothing or in the world Their child would at least have this basic

basic education. It's a safety net. That's why it's there. And it's a good thing. We need it. But I think in the context of this discussion, bad as it is, I would never say, yeah, get rid of it. Abolish it because it's so bad. I would never, ever, ever say that. But in the context of this discussion, what we're trying to say is that for people who want better outcomes than you would get in the public school system, you have to pursue different pathways. Yep, exactly. That's what it's about. It's not get rid of

the school and it's also not get rid of the religion, saying, hey, wait a second, I want better and different outcomes. I have to take a different path. That's there for society, for safety. It's needed, it's necessary, but it doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to follow that path. Right? And that's where we started with homeschooling because we thought we want different outcomes. We want different outcomes. We want better outcomes than we're, than...

seeing in the public school system so we're going to pursue that different pathway. as arrogant as it might sound we wholeheartedly believe that we because of the inefficiencies and ineffectiveness inside these big organizations we believed we could do it more effectively and more efficiently right which has proved to be true. Yes. And so it can be done and again back to this quest of

Rachel Denning (17:52.575)
striving to become your very best self, if you genuinely on a journey to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow, then of necessity, just the very nature of growth, you're going to outgrow certain things. You're going to move past them. And that's important. You can't be like, well, no, you know.

Junior high is the best. We're staying there because it was a good experience. Well at some point you've got to outgrow that. Rachel's alarms are going off.

Rachel Denning (18:47.841)
So I think we'll circle back to the outgrow things because it's important.

Okay, and there's there's a foundation there's a base right so we're talking about questioning organization saying is there a better way to do this and and and being willing I heaven forbid to question the sacred cow which For both of us starting out Public school was a sacred cow. I went to school you did you went to you know college you were a public school teacher so that idea initially was

Like I went through the whole thing and I loved going to university. I genuinely loved going to university and I learned so much. I was out on my own at 16. So going to going to high school and like doing the work, I learned a lot. Right. And I liked learning. I loved learning. And so I was like, this is great. And then I wanted to be a teacher because of what education can do. It can transform lives. And so I'm I'm in it like this is the best. And education.

is transformation, but then you have to start questioning the sacred cow of, a minute, are these schools actually delivering education? Well, and today we're asking, are churches really delivering on spiritual promises? and but I think that this is also a good analogy because we're also not saying there was no value there. We're not saying that it didn't provide a foundation for your life. It did those things, but what we are saying is that

At some point, you realized, okay, good, it produced these outcomes. But if I want something different, if I want something higher, if I want to continue growing, if I want to continue progressing, I actually have to leave this behind, if that makes sense. I have to move beyond the basics. Okay, here's a comparison. It's like you look at the Ten Commandments.

Rachel Denning (20:49.697)
Like are the 10 commandments ever going to be irrelevant? No way. They're fantastic. They're awesome. But if I look at the 10 commandments is like, that's it, man. That's the whole of truth and religion is keep the 10 commandments and you're good. That's way too small. It's way too small. And if we want to rise, then we have to keep all the 10 commandments easily and actually pursue more commandments.

It also, I think there's also a nuance here because I just recently read an article about this where the, essence, the 10 commandments are transactional. Where ultimately we want to move into the transformational. We want to focus on the commandments, the laws, the principles that transform us, not just that are kind of like check the box, you know, transactional. And that I think,

as we get into this discussion about why people are leaving the church, the Christian church in the world, it's because there's too much of a focus on the transactional. There's too much of a focus on do this, don't do that, don't do this, do that thing. know, like Because we start coming up with lots and lots of rules. It becomes, to me, very similar to the Sanhedrin.

the Pharisees in Jesus's time where they... I mean that was one of the things in this article too it pointed out. Like yeah it started with the Ten Commandments but by the time Jesus was on the earth they had 613 commandments. Like itemizing every little thing and while a lot of us think well that's not happening today even though it's not... It's totally happening today. Even though it's not per se written down anywhere.

like a commandment but every church has these things that are like we don't do that. Well and a lot of families do. We've seen this so many times in families that you stop and look at it you're like good night like these parents are the epitome of the Sanhedrin or Pharisees legitimately but they and you know I don't know I didn't live in Jesus's time but I'm imagining many of the Pharisees

Rachel Denning (23:13.909)
did it from the goodness of their heart. Yes they wanted to be exactly obedient. They wanted right thinking. And I know a lot of these parents with the best of intention are like I know what to do let's make way more rules and way more and they become abstract and arbitrary and like but like no we're doing this because we're we're like super righteous. And and now you might be thinking well what Greg didn't you just say we move beyond the Ten Commandments to other commandments. And there's more commandments. Yeah there's more commandments.

But I guess it's worth the distinction there. It's not like I'm going to come up with another 500 specific, very specific rules, like at this exact time I have to do this. And I can only do this, but only to that extent, because then after that's a violation. What I was referring to is the higher laws, specifically something from like the Sermon on the Mount. Right?

loving God with all your heart might mind of strength and loving your neighbor and being of good cheer like nobody's ever thought well is that a commandment am i keeping that commandment like being as you see that like it's like yeah be of good cheer

doubt not, fear not. Like, wow, those ones are, those ones are tough. That's, that's the refinement. That's the growth. And it's not some be in your house before midnight because evil is unleashed at that hour. It's like, what are you talking about? It's, it's just absurd. It's so silly.

So yeah, so it's a focus on the transformational aspects of it rather than just the transactional aspects. And I think one of the biggest challenges with that whole idea, and again, one of the reasons why religion exists with its dogma and its formality is because it's trying to help people find that path. unless you have some sort of spiritual development, you really can be like,

Rachel Denning (25:24.449)
I don't know what to do. Like how do I change my life? don't know what just to do. And so it is helpful to have someone to tell us, do this, don't do that, do And we love it. And we do love it. Especially when we start out. I used to be very much like that. And I still know a lot of people that's like, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. It's like I'd plan for that. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. all the laws, everything. Even to the point where you used to wear your shorts.

below your knees because you just thought that was one of the things. There's a line of like above the knee is one thing below the knees, a better thing. Higher away. you get it. And so you're like, well, I want to be even better. I want to be even better. And so you start thinking more rules, more rules, more rules. But that's not necessarily the case because it becomes more transactional. so it is the sense, I think, as we grow and develop, it actually becomes something that's more intuitive.

and more individualized. Yes, but that gets risky because you're like, whoa, did you just step into relativism? And aren't there there hard rules? And when you, you know, when you look at the Bible and the scriptures, we love to think that they're rule books, but they're not because if they were strict rule books, we were supposed to beat our children with a rod and women are not to speak out. Right. Right.

And you say, well, know, that's a misunderstanding and that's an exception. So then we go through and we make little exceptions, but then something else in there is like, yeah, that's a hard rule. Wait a minute. It's a guidebook. The sacred texts are guidebooks with principles and practices. One of the best approaches I've heard is talking about how it's a book of wisdom. Like the Bible specifically has contradictory statements in it.

Because it's trying to teach us that, yeah, sometimes you do this thing, and sometimes you do the opposite. Like, that's what wisdom is. Wisdom is knowing when to use which thing at what time. And some people would dismiss that. No, no, no, that must be a translation error. It got corrupted over time. In the Bible. If we're willing to stop and be like, no, no, no, hold up. Just be willing to accept this for a minute. Sometimes they killed, and sometimes they didn't.

Rachel Denning (27:48.659)
And sometimes they did one thing and then they said the opposite. Something must be wrong because, know, this is the eternal truth contradict itself. No, that's the point. That's life. And there are contradictions in life and there are deep ironies in life. And yeah, it's super powerful. So one of the things that I wanted to really emphasize today is that that with. With the access to the gospel. And even.

you know what some people call the fullness of the gospel, the church and the people in the church.

comes the shameful word should should be way better like way way better and if we if we have the teachings of Jesus and we have the truth of God

Rachel Denning (28:47.551)
Why in the... Okay, this is where I could be misunderstood and where I'm going to sound critical and maybe, I don't know, I don't want to come across as prideful or this whole holier than thou or I'm not coming from this approach of I'm better. What I'm saying is like, Why aren't we all better? As an organization, why aren't we absolutely, voraciously chasing greatness? Why are we limping along?

in often embarrassing mediocrity and sometimes sub mediocre. Like it's so bad often that it's below mediocre. Like are you kidding me? Like there's there's so much potential, so much greatness available sitting right here on the table in front of us.

And the best we can do is offer one of the most boring sermons that's ever been delivered on this planet. Are you kidding me? There's so much truth. There's so much potential. There's so much goodness. And all you can do is just read from a manual. That's what I was thinking. Read from a manual. And we can have the most transformative discussions.

But those kind of questions aren't allowed in here, brother or sister. We can't doubt. We can't ask hard questions. We can't debate. There's no debating. And then the most pathetic answer, which seems like the spiritual answer, is when the hard questions are asked you're like, you just need to have more faith. That is such a cop -out. It is such an absolute cop -out. And so with all the greatness and the potential for

for Christ's true church.

Rachel Denning (30:48.597)
Like we're just limping along. Now I can hear people in their mind saying, because I used to say it, I used to teach it. Well, the church is like a hospital and we're all sick. And I was like, that's a great metaphor. And I like I used to share that. the church is a gathering place for sick people. And then after I started thinking, wait a minute, why are they all still sick? Isn't anybody getting whole?

Like hospitals in a place you're supposed to stay. Yeah, you don't you don't go to the hospital. Like I'm sick and like move in permanently, like bring all your belongings, move in and stay sick and everybody else is sick and we all are sick together. Like, wait a minute. Who's healing? So if the metaphor were realistic, you'd go to hospital, get some healing, then you'd leave. So are you supposed to come in and leave? Do you outgrow the church?

Or is that just a really crappy metaphor? And then, but people, they embrace it, they live it. And then like, well, then the patients become the nurses and doctors. Like, come here. you're a patient, but you've been here a while. Why don't you start, why don't you perform the surgery over here? Like what in the world? No, get me out of here. Like what's going on? Why, why isn't there massive transformation? Why aren't we having a far?

far better experience.

Sundays?

Rachel Denning (32:24.221)
and in our Sunday schools or scripture study, know, Bible studies.

Like, it should be absolutely phenomenal. And now this is where I'm attacking the sacred crowd. People are like, you're questioning, you're questioning God. No, I'm not. You're questioning Jesus. No, I'm not. I'm looking at what's there and saying, guys, like we're dropping the ball massively. And I know many people will be like, how dare you? How dare you question the leaders?

dare you question the pastors or the bishops or the Pope these people yeah how dare you question him like no we have to question we have to stop and say how can this be done better well and for me one of the reasons I actually believe that strongly is because when I look at the history of the Christian religion what I see is a pattern of questioning I see Jesus coming questioning

was going on. He was a Jew. He was Jewish. yet he was questioning the church. Questioning the church. And challenging it. His whole ministry of message was questioning the church. And directly intentionally challenging it. So wait, what you're saying Rachel is that if I'm trying to be like Jesus, I should be questioning the church. And I should be challenging practices of the church. Well because then if you continue to look... But I'm not Jesus.

Right, you're not. If you continue to look through the history of Christianity itself, there's an ongoing pattern of that behavior. In fact, Martin Luther himself, wrote out 90 things that he disagreed with, with the Catholic Church, and nailed it to the door of the church. He wrote it all out, nailed it to the door, and said, these are all the 90 things I disagree with. And then they said, we're going to kill you. Right, then they said, we're going to kill you because you're a heretic.

Rachel Denning (34:29.823)
But it was, I mean, Martin Luther was one of the great reformers. It's because of Martin phenomenal, phenomenal human being and Christian. Exactly. And it's because of Martin Luther that the Protestant movement began, which then in essence is the source of every single other religion, Christian religion in the world, is Protestant.

because of Martin Luther. Because they were protesting. They were protesting Catholicism. Things that weren't being done well in the church. hey wait a minute this doesn't line up and and then as you look through many many let's call them prophets. Right. You know I would think Martin Luther is an excellent prophet. Right. He's a great example although like you know he's not in the scriptures and no one's calling him a He's just an excellent example of prophet and there's been many more I would call Dietrich Bornhofer.

another one. He was a pastor in Germany. Wow. you should read... Eric Metaxas wrote books on both of them. But the history of these prophets is that they're essentially questioning and debating the existing ideas at the time and presenting new ones or, you know, having an argument in favor of other ideas. That's been the history. And you look at any prophet that God called. Exactly. Look what John the Baptist was doing. Right.

And of course the apostles. Protesting, calling out, pointing out, disagreeing. Like that to me is the history of how God works in the world. He works that way. That is how he works through people. They're going contrary. Contrary to the existing beliefs. and somebody, somebody just, as in our family, were just...

sharing this and somebody was it a leah that came across the definition the definition of a prophet it was like yeah basically like it actually came from when we were listening we're listening to a series on exodus with jordan peterson and several other scholars scholars and they he basically said in passing like the role of a prophet is one who critiques society or something like that and and to a point where like most of prophets

Rachel Denning (36:49.503)
Either they attempted to kill them or did kill them. They succeeded to kill them because these guys are revolutionists. They're standing up against social tides and currents. think I think that's worth emphasizing. As and that's one of the main messages inside Metaxas book A Letter to the American Church. He's like we should be standing up as boldly as Christian. We should be boldly standing up against the absurdities.

that are being spread through society right now. And yet we remain quiet. And churches and the leaders of churches, they don't dare speak up because they will get absolutely blasted in the media and other ways. But guess what? Like, I don't see anywhere where the prophets were like, society will not be kind to me. So I'm going to stay quiet.

And so, and when they speak out and there's this big outrage on social media like, how dare you take a stand? How dare you have values and standards? You're offending people. Are you kidding me?

I don't see anywhere where they would just cower to society and their absurdities. in one way here, and again, I'm not Jesus and I'm not a prophet, fortunately, because I don't want that role. But as an observer, I have to ask, where are the prophets who are boldly, boldly?

speaking out against the absolute absurdities in society.

Rachel Denning (38:36.993)
Jordan Peterson's doing it. bring up Jordan Peterson too much. He's doing it and there are others that are doing it. There are lot of people who are doing it. There's who are doing it so well and they've built up large platforms and I often think wow these individuals are doing it better than the churches. How is this even possible?

How is it that they, of their own accord, say, no, this is unacceptable. I'm doing this. And they're doing it better. And we're being put to shame a lot.

Rachel Denning (39:20.341)
by other individuals or organizations like, no, why aren't we rising up? Right. And again, I want to reemphasize that we fully believe in religion. We believe in the importance of religion. We believe in our religion. We believe in the principles that are taught in most of these religions. All of these things are necessary. They're important.

But we also can't ignore what we have seen through our own study, our own search, our own walking of the labyrinth, these patterns, these ideas that feel like sacred cows, right? Where there is, in essence, this history of this necessity even, like called of God necessity to say, wait a second.

This isn't being done as well as it could be. This is actually detrimental. This is having a negative effect. And for me, back to the idea of one of the things I mentioned, like why are people leaving the churches? It's because in essence, because this is something Jordan Peterson also talks about plenty because he's interviewed lots of pastors from Catholic churches to Protestant churches to all over. He's talked to him. It's a global phenomenon.

Why are people leaving the churches? It's essentially because they're not being called to something great. They're not being challenged to some noble aim. And they're not being fed. They're not being fed by the good word of God. They're not. And if you, at least in my own experience, if I go to church, I can see that firsthand. It's not happening because most of the people around me, myself included, are bored out of our minds.

trying to keep ourselves awake and we're just not being challenged spiritually, intellectually, socially. Like it's just, it's just not there. And I know that some people would argue about that and I totally agree there are definitely churches out there where that is happening. So I'm not saying that this is a blanket statement, universal. It is happening. And we have on occasion been to some of those churches.

Rachel Denning (41:45.003)
But we've also traveled a lot and been to a lot of churches. And I would say the norm, more often than not, is a sense of boredom. And just checking the boxes of like, went to church. Yeah, I'm supposed to be at church. I'm at church. Check. And that's extremely dangerous, because then you can go home patting yourself on the back believing that you are on this path of salvation and righteousness, because I go to church. Exactly. And you're like, yeah, what did you actually do?

get out of it. Especially when we're talking about transformation rather than just transaction. Like just going to church is transactional. But if there's not transformation that's occurring there, then it's in my mind it's really just useless. It's pointless. If you're not experiencing transformation, then you're going to church is not of value. You're not getting the value of it because the value is not being, well in many cases the value is not being offered. Right.

Like I heard, I saw this, I don't even know what it was, a bumper sticker or something. like, you know, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. And I thought, at first I was like, that's great. And I'm like, well, no, you can never become a car. So I thought, well, wait a minute. It's better like going to church doesn't make you righteous or spiritual or help you in any way, just like.

merely going to the gym would help you get in great shape. Like if I go to the gym every day and check the box and then go home, like, it doesn't mean I'm going to get in great shape. doesn't mean I'm going to be a fit athlete. It means nothing. Like I see people go to consistently go to gym and never get results because what they're doing isn't working. And the way they're doing it isn't working. That's, guess that's maybe that's what I really want to emphasize is like go to the gym and do it right.

and do it with intensity and consistency. Get those results that we're supposed to be getting by participating in church. Well, and maybe this is a good analogy because, you know, we're not saying... I guess one way we are saying like, yes, you can also get fit outside of the gym. You don't necessarily have to go to the gym to get fit. You could get it at home. You could get it by running. You could get it in other ways. So that's a possibility. But we are also saying, yeah, go to the gym.

Rachel Denning (44:09.333)
But make sure you're doing the workouts and make sure they have the right equipment. Because sometimes just not having the right equipment means you're not getting the fitness because they don't have what you need to get fit. And good trainers. I guess, is this time to bring up home church? Like if you do home education, it's possible to get a world class education at home.

Especially nowadays. Even more so. is going to be misunderstood and some will hear it as heresy. Could home church be absolutely world class? Is it possible? And I want to invite all of you listening really honestly answer this. Wrestle with it. Don't just don't just brush it off. Don't just push it aside. Really really wrestle with this. Is it possible?

at home on your own with your family to truly come closer to God. I think the first time I ever heard of Home Church, which was ironic because that was one of my sacred cows. I just thought, well no, that would never be a thing. I have to go to church. I have to be at a church. But we know the super awesome family. They used to be Mennonite, I think. They still dress

in that way but they have officially left their specific congregation or whatever because they're also unconventional. was kind of and they were kind of Amish, Mennonite and they live in Amish country now. I I don't know all the differences between those sects or whatever but essentially Mennonite, Amish something like that but they had a large family amazing people they had 10 kids I think they had adopted a bunch of them some of them with special needs but

They had, and I don't know all the details of the story, but essentially they had left their group. Their congregation. Because of some falling out or something. But they told us, they're like, well we just do home church. And that was the first time I'd ever come across that idea. And I was just like, And these are amazing. Like these people are Christians. are like salt of the Gosh, I wanna be more like them.

Rachel Denning (46:30.953)
You know, but I just, it struck me at the time because I thought, well, yeah, I chose to homeschool. Home church, that's interesting. But it was several, I mean, that was a long time ago, pre -COVID even. But I think that idea in itself opened us up to, because before that, we always believed that we couldn't personally live in a part of the world where a congregation of our church didn't exist. But because of that,

We were open and we ended up going to Morocco. Well, we had some visa restrictions at one point So we had to leave and we're out for three months and there was no congregation of our church and so we thought well, let's do Home church and so we did home church that was in I think 2015 2016 it was one of the best experiences we've had with church, right? When we did home church and then of course during Covid for context to for people who might be new or listening like I went through a seminary

and then I actually taught in seminary. you essentially have a doctorate in religion. Yeah, I taught religion for years. Like I went deep, deep dive into this. And so I love it. And I love the study of it. I love the history of it. I love teaching. I love studying the pedagogy. how to effectively teach it. Like I love all of this stuff. And so that was also one of the things that led me to question like, wait,

We should be so much more effective as teachers and preachers. Here's one of the ironies of life. And I just see this time and again that once we get good at something, we also become a good critic of that thing. And because you were good at teaching, you are a great teacher and you had gone through all the training of teaching specifically in religion. You started early on saying, wait a second, why don't we have better teachers in religion? Like we could have some of the best.

in the world. You know, we could have some of the best teaching out there and yet we don't. Why? Why don't we have that? Because it's possible. It's available. Especially when you just learn, you know, some teaching skills. So anyways, back to this idea of home church, you know. So COVID, of course, happened. A lot of people experienced that. And I heard from a lot of people about how much they loved home church. Like it was a great thing. And now what happens, what happens at home is then

Rachel Denning (48:51.679)
the entire responsibility of the family. So if spiritual growth takes place, great. If it doesn't, not so great. But either way, it's on you. just, you know, just saying, well, we're all home. Like, okay, it's going to be a magnifier of what you actually do with it. And it's important to point out that some families could do it and do it phenomenally well. And you look through the scriptures, look through the scriptures of all the examples of individuals or families.

essentially out on their own becoming some of the greatest people who've ever lived. So those of you who are, you know, feeling like your sacred cows being attacked, look at your very own scriptures for all the examples of people who said, no, what's happening at church is a mess. doing this on my own. I'm leaving and did it phenomenally well. John the Baptist.

Because even what Jesus said about John the Baptist, that he was one of the greatest ever born of women or whatever, and what was John doing? He wasn't in the churches like, I'm going to head to synagogue and listen to the Pharisees and Sadducees had to say. I'm going to get all ducked out. He was dressed like a wild man out on his own in the desert. And Jesus said he's one of the best men that was ever born. Right. This is so interesting.

And then the most quoted prophet by Jesus himself is Isaiah. And if you deep dive in Isaiah, I spent three years deep diving in Isaiah. Isaiah's message is a severe rebuke of the church. That is Isaiah. He's ripping the church to shreds for their mediocre behavior. Back to the pattern that we've noticed.

even starting with Jesus through Isaiah through, well, it was before Jesus, so starting before Jesus, and then the Reformers, and on and on, that's the pattern. The pattern is...

Rachel Denning (51:04.095)
How do I say criticizing the existing institution in a way like and that's again that sounds like you're killing a sacred cow right there. What criticize the existing institution. They hate it. Like how dare you. How could you. That's terrible. And yet I think that that's the only way that reformation has ever come about. That's the only improvement comes about. True. It is the only way improvement comes about. It's only by criticizing and noticing the things that

wrong and need to be improved that you actually make improvement. That's true in our own lives. That's true in our marriages. That's true in our parenting. Like that's just a true principle. I think that's just a foundational principle. So the greatest danger is taking someone or something and saying no they're they're outside of examination. That is outside that's outside of questioning. It's outside of any of that and and the great risk there is that it's easy to slip into subpar performance.

because it's never being questioned or examined. Like we have to be willing to question it and that's difficult and uncomfortable. It is very much uncomfortable. It is very, for some people blasphemous or... Heretical or whatever. Heretical or apostate or you know there's all of these, again, belonging to the sacred cows. There's all of these ideas where we think if I do that...

or if I question that thing, or if I believe this thing, I am now outside of the gospel, I'm outside of the church, I'm outside of salvation, I'm outside of like, you know, whatever it is. But in my own experience, which has been essentially, I believe, a faith building experience, because I believe my faith is stronger now than it ever was before. Same for me. It came...

by me being willing to question and if necessary kill the sacred counts. Absolutely. Absolutely. And like we've mentioned multiple times, that was the journey of spirituality and of prophets. Of attacking those things and shutting them down. And it's important to do this. No prophet has ever said, I am infallible.

Rachel Denning (53:30.977)
In fact, they say the opposite. Yeah, they're like, we make mistakes. And yet too often people want to put them on a pedestal. I mean, I even remember growing up that I had this, I don't know if it came from specifically the church or just people around me, that in essence, all the prophets were perfect. Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all of them were perfect. And I remember

Even not that long ago, listening to Jordan Peterson, I mean, this was like several years ago, but listening to him critiquing the prophets and pointing out that no, God is using these very imperfect men and women who make mistakes, who get drunk, who do all kinds of things that they shouldn't be doing. But yet that's the people God is working with to prove that

He's God, I guess, and we're human. And he's going to use our humanness to reach his goals and his ends, right? Like, it's not... His gospel being spread is not dependent upon perfection of human beings. And so then, I think it's wise and mature of us to realize that leaders and prophets make mistakes. And that doesn't undo their...

prophetness, as I make up a word there. It has nothing to do with that. It's like, yeah, they were wrong about that. But there's that sacred cow again. It's like, wait a minute, they made a mistake. If they were wrong about something, that must mean they're not good or not true or not prophets or not leaders. No, that's just not the case. This is not the case. And so there's some spiritual maturity there to be like, yeah.

If they're not infallible, which they are not, and they'll be the first to tell you, then of necessity, they make mistakes. And I think that that's true in all. organizations in general, the very nature of an organization is the fact that, because organizations are necessary, whether they're religious or corporate or education system, whatever, they're necessary. Like we talked about already. They are necessary. We need them. But the inherent danger.

Rachel Denning (55:57.217)
of organizations are that they also become bureaucratic, they become dogmatic, like they become rigid. And in their rigidity, they lose some of that natural flexibility and intuition and... Transformation. They become transactional. They become transactional. And almost without exception, the bigger they get,

the worse they get in a very real way. is just the nature of organizations. That's true no matter what. Government, business, if you just look at organizations in general, that's what happens. They become bigger and more behemoth and more dinosaur -like. Then their manual of instructions gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

You know, so far extended that somebody else handing a manual to somebody else saying this is how we do things. And you're like, man. Which in a way is necessary. It's necessary for the growth to occur. But it also has an inherent weakness in it, which leans towards, in essence, totalitarianism. It leans towards this controlling power, which is the end all, be all, say all, do all. Like, it's the authority which

is what the prophets have always been fighting against, right? It's what Jesus fought against, fighting against the Pharisees. mean, that's what, it's the natural cycle that continues to happen. It has been happening for thousands of years and it continues to happen and needs to continue to happen because that's how growth and development and transformation occur by saying, organization, and this is true whether it's the school system or the government.

We have to say, wait, you're becoming too rigid. You're becoming too controlling. We need some reformation here. We need change. You're getting too watered down. You're getting too mediocre. You're not delivering on the goods. We have to focus on the basics and the grassroots in a way, which is a bottom up instead of a top down, because that's inevitably what happens. As an organization grows, it becomes very top down, which is the manuals and the instructions and the directives.

Rachel Denning (58:16.691)
And we have to restore some of that grassroots bottom up magic that is where it came from. Like that's where the organizations originally came from. questioning. Christianity started grassroots. Jesus and some disciples out teaching the world. That's how it started. And even all the Protestant churches. Exactly. the churches have popped up. Somebody's like, hey, wait a minute. Yeah. That doesn't jive. And they start questioning. Grassroots. That's how it grows. They go from that. Yeah. Yeah, it's so powerful.

Okay, but then you said something that's like, wait a minute. You're saying we need to go back to grassroots, we need go back to the basics, which is true and good. But then another criticism is if we teach the basics, and we teach the basics, and we teach the basics, and the basics, and Well, yeah, I guess I don't teach the basics. mean Teach the basics. In some ways, I feel like the basics, it's more of this sense of discovery and

interest and passion and communication and debate. Every movement has begun that way. It began by people discussing ideas, disagreeing, conversing, doubting, questioning. Yes, almost always, as I'm just thinking out loud here, almost always the questioner was so well read and so thoughtful and so intellectual that they, they. Maybe. Okay, maybe. But let's, let's think of some.

obviously like Martin Luther, right? He instead of just going along and accepting everything that he's being fed and told, he's deeply studying in the scriptures saying, wait a minute, this doesn't jive. What about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? And so I get my point is here, we have to move beyond the basics. And I think every church needs to be offering a space for those who are brand new to religion, brand new to faith. And they need the basics. It's beautiful.

But it has to offer a place for growth, for real growth, for people who want to move at a faster pace, who really want to excel. And I don't know, they want to grow. Where's the spot for them? Yeah, because if we continue to use the system comparison, again, necessary, important. It's a foundational piece there. It's a safety.

Rachel Denning (01:00:39.742)
And that's true. That's still true. Everything we've said about church and religion does not discount the fact that for many people it is needed and necessary. I mean, we know people right now, right here, I can think of many of them, who they need the basics that the church has to offer. That's important and they need it. But you're right. If we think about it like the school system, well, you're not supposed to just go to school and then stay in...

first grade or second grade or third grade or fourth grade or elementary school, you're supposed to continue to progress on. There should be levels. There should be grades. There should be this progression that occurs rather than you come, you go to the same class, and you stay in the same class forever. And you just repeat the lessons indefinitely. when somebody says, is there another level? Can we talk about something a little bit maybe?

No, repetition is important. Repetition is important. They'll say, who do think you are? Is pride getting in your heart, brother? Are you becoming arrogant, sister, to think you know this already? Do you think you are learned and wise Yeah, you're so special. You're like, no, I just want to go to college now. Can I go to college? Can I get a bachelor's? Then after have a bachelor's, master's, a doctorate. Can I get another doctorate? Can I get another doctorate? Can I please keep going if I want to?

And the response is usually be more humble. Right. And more faithful. And study on your own. like, wait a minute. If real growth is me studying on my own. Why am I coming to Why do I come to church again? You with me? Like these are hard questions we need to ask. Yeah. And without getting thrown in the box or under the bus of pride, arrogance.

Like, no, wait a minute, let's have these discussions and let's really think through them and say, well, yeah, why isn't this being done better? And I guess this is a perfect point for something else I really want to emphasize. I want to invite everybody listening.

Rachel Denning (01:02:47.753)
I want you to look at real results. So no more sugar coating, no more facades, no more cute little statements of like, everybody's sick and it's, you know, this, that, and the other. want just honestly gut check, pull the, the rose colored glasses off. Look at the results. Is your congregation producing real results or are they just slight?

better than the rest of society. And as society goes down the toilet and I don't know if you guys aren't seeing that I don't know where you live or what bubble you got your head in. Like society is just right down the toilet. It is an absolute

toilet. It's so bad. And that's not to say there's there's good people. my goodness there's so many good people. The trend is heading down. And just look at the big numbers like the number for health. Which is a natural part of the United States. Fourth turning and all of that and that's the part we're in right now is that the end of the fourth turning so that's it's to be expected it's a part of that. So it's physical health, mental emotional health, spiritual health.

Then you look at the trends of behaviors and what's going on, this weird, bizarre, crazy stuff and then addictions. then like, well, the pornography and the sexual addictions. And the sex trafficking and the human trafficking. the US is the number one consumer worldwide. And a lot of them are going to church. And human trafficking. And the church goes all the stuff. So.

I guess my point is here and I know this is a criticism and I know this can be misunderstood. So give me the benefit of the doubt if you're misunderstanding me. Let's look at the results because results don't lie. So if you're sitting there thinking my church is the best and my congregation is amazing and this is so special and so powerful. Look at it without the rose colored glasses. Is it actually making a difference?

Rachel Denning (01:05:00.475)
And is it we also Is it transactional or is it literally transforming lives? And if it's not transforming lives, we have to ask the hard questions and make the hard changes. And this is not to in any way.

judge people as not being good people because this has nothing to do with them. There are good people in all of these churches that we're talking about. We're not saying that they're all bad people and porn addicts or anything like that. What we're trying to say... Or that even if you are a porn addict that you're a bad person. Exactly, right. It's not. Exactly. What we're trying to say is look at the results. Look at like everything you said. Do they have a happy marriage?

Or is it just a facade? Do they have great relationships with their children and they're getting great results with their children?

Or are they just checking the boxes and then saying, well, you know, children have agencies, so I guess they're going to make mistakes and hate me. You know? Are they obese? Because that is one of the indicators of the society problem that is not any better in churches, you know what I'm saying? Because they're all just following the same trends of poor health, which is the precursor to disease.

Like it just is, right? And you would think that as a church, if we believe in being the children of God, that we would have different results. We would actually care about the bodies that God had given to us and have way better health. That our bodies are temples. And you might be wondering, wait a minute, what does obesity have to do with spirituality? And my answer is everything. Exactly. It's true. And we can go through item after item and say, OK, what kind of results

Rachel Denning (01:06:53.569)
people actually getting who proclaim to be Christians? Because in a holistic sense, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, social, financial, those things should all be trending upward. Yes, right. And we're not talking about, well if you don't meet the standard or whatever that's the problem. No, we're talking about a trend upward. Like over time you should be producing better results.

as you continue to experience transformation. And if that's not occurring, then something's wrong. This is when I have my imaginary pulpit as a preacher and I do some pulpit pounding. And one of the observations I'm making here is that the church is failing. If something's wrong,

In one aspect, obviously, like, and people are going to say, well, it's the individual's responsibility. Yes, it is. But in this conversation specifically, the church is failing to provide what it easily could provide. It is failing to level up to its own potential. How in the world can we have the gospel of Jesus Christ and then provide provide such a

dismally pathetic experience.

It's, I'm just gonna be honest, like to me, at least my perspective, it's embarrassing and shameful. And it's a disgrace to truth and goodness and like. And again, this is not to discount the role it is playing, because we're admitting that. We're admitting that, yes, it is playing a role. It is providing a safety net. It's helping them to stop drink or just to stop their addictions or to whatever, forgive.

Rachel Denning (01:08:50.525)
It is doing all of those things and it is doing it on a basic, necessary level. are having beautiful experiences making changes. absolutely. That is happening. But in the context of this conversation, we're talking about the upward reach. We're talking about the ongoing growth and development of the members, especially over a long period of time. Yes, they should be palpably, discernibly getting better fast.

Well, not even necessarily fast, but just like, obviously. Like, consistently. There's an upward have to be fast, but it should be consistent, at least. There's palpable, measurable progress, like, this is working. Right. And this is hard. This is what makes this conversation so hard. Because at a basic level, you're like, yeah, look. This person.

was just struggling so much and and now they're not struggling with that thing. That's it's amazing and like some of it's miraculous and wonderful and beautiful and we celebrate that and we acknowledge that and that's what makes this conversation so hard is because when you look at something and and okay this is what makes personal development hard this is what marriage is hard parenting hard yes we have to celebrate what we are achieving yes we have to celebrate where we've come from

But we can't stop there. so. Well, and we need to celebrate what has got us to that point, which includes religion. It includes the church. Like, at least in our own lives especially, that has been a foundational aspect of our marriage, our growth. So we're not discounting that. We are not making light of them. Because we know that that played a huge role. It was absolutely It was very significant.

included the church. It's necessary. It's important. But we also can't just sit back on that and be like, well, okay, so I guess now if we're just bored and spiritually dying, then we just have to hold on to the end. Wait for our.

Rachel Denning (01:11:08.257)
time in heaven to make up for. This is don't believe that's what it's supposed to be like. Because growth and refinement requires a constant re -examination and say hey yeah what you did was great that's fantastic. Okay for me as a husband right I made all these changes before I met Rachel and I could have I could have been like you have no idea what I was like. I had a insane temper and it was so bad. grateful. You should just love me for who I am like.

I made so much progress, but I never ever ever asked her to love me as I am and I still don't today. That's interesting too because in some ways if we think about it that way many churches are saying, hey this is just who I am. Like this is how the church is. Just come and accept it. Just deal with it. Just put up with it how it is.

Just find a way to endure, find a way to make it through, but just show up. If you want a better experience, it's on you. It's your responsibility to bring a better experience. I'm going to change. I'm not going to do things differently. That's on you. And that, if we even use the metaphors that Christ has used, if we're in this marriage with the church, that's a crap attitude. Yeah, that's a horrible attitude. To expect.

all the responsibility for what you get out of this relationship to come from me and you have no responsibility that just doesn't work you know what mean so like yes absolutely we have to do our part we have to be seeking we have to be praying we have to be like fully engaged as much as possible but at some point there needs to be reciprocation I think you know what I mean there has to be

Reformation change transformation coming from the church itself and the organizations and how they're run And and really it does it's gonna start it's going to happen grassroots It's gonna happen bottom up because in many many ways It's so difficult to make those changes tops down. It just is like that's the nature of organization itself so This is hard I realize the complexity of it and

Rachel Denning (01:13:26.973)
And all like for years and years when I questioned or other people questioned, the thought was, it's pride. It's pride. so now, but we have to beg the question, is it possible to question and criticize the church without being, you know, from as a humble person? it possible? secret of truth. Can somebody who's genuinely chasing greatness, can they be humble? they're chasing truth.

Can they be humble and question the church and how things are being done? Yes. I mean, at least for me, that is where this entire conversation that we're having, our willingness to discuss and kill sacred cows and question and doubt came about because I was sincerely seeking truth. Like, that's what I wanted. I just wanted to know the truth. And for myself, you know, I've had a journey where the religion that we belong to, like,

My parents were not always active in it. In fact, my mom joined it later in life. And then they weren't active at certain times during my childhood. But then they came back to it. I was not active. I think I mentally checked out at 16. And then when I moved out of my house at 18, I had nothing to do with it. But then I came back to it because I wanted to find a strong, healthy relationship, a marriage.

so I knew that the place to find that would be in you know religion in church so I came back to it. Well kind of kind of naively on a little side note thinking well people who go to church are you know. Well compared to the other places right if you're go to the club or the bar to look for a mate it's way better to go to church to look for someone so yeah it's not like people at church are perfect or have everything figured out or all put together but it's a way different

It's a way better place to start. It's better place to start. But it's also, think, in this conversation, we have to be willing to look under the hood, so to speak, behind the scenes and realize that, you know.

Rachel Denning (01:15:37.523)
of churchgoers, very active, consistent Christian churchgoers.

Like at home, well, they have lots of problems. Their marriages are falling apart. Their health is falling apart. Their families, a train wreck. Their kids are a mess. Like they have severe addictions to painkillers or porn or whatever. like massive, massive problems. But man, they're there every week. Check the box. Check the box. Put on the show the masquerade.

They just put your Sunday's clothes on and put on your Sunday smile and hold hands with your wife because you just were fighting like cats and dogs, but you're going to church together. And so we put on the show and we get thinking like, Christians are the best. know, some of them are the worst. Like some of the church going people are some of the worst people on the planet. And that's so it is challenging because we fully realize that, you know.

We're all here having a human experience. it can be filled with pain and suffering and trauma and really hard things, really. But I guess that's the point of having these types of conversations is saying, well, let's all do a better job at finding the things that actually work and using them more consistently so we can all get

better happier results. Yes. Because while life does definitely contain suffering, it should contain more joy and more healing and more healing. We have access to the healing power of the gospel of Christ's gospel. Why aren't we healing? Right. What is going on that we have unlimited access to the healing power of the gospel of Christ? And everyone's staying sick. And those wounds are like infected.

Rachel Denning (01:17:44.687)
putrid like what is going on and the easy cop -out is what's the individual and of course the individual has responsibility of course but if we continue to use this analogy if you go to the hospital for healing and they don't have the right tools nobody gets better then then yeah you're not getting better and you're just remaining or even if the tools are there maybe it's a little bit better than it would be

but the true healing isn't taking place. And so, yeah, the transformation isn't occurring. And again, we're simply basing this conversation off, in some ways, our own experiences. What we have seen, having been to 57 countries, five continents, lots and lots of churches, and just the world in general.

Rachel Denning (01:18:41.461)
Where are the people who are getting those higher level results? And how can we all be a part of making that happen? Because I truly believe that at least that's kind of the point of why we're here. And that's the point of why religion exists, so that we can learn how to get real transformational results in our lives.

so that we can find this healing, we can find the peace, we can find the joy, we can have better marriages, we can have better relationships. And in fact, everything we teach, in essence, essentially comes from this gospel foundation of like, there are principles, there are really things out there that work, and we just have to learn how to use them. Now, one of the problems is that, okay, going back to what we were talking about before, because, you know,

I was saying this isn't to say that there aren't good people at the church. There are good people. And that's not really the point. The point is, yes, good people are there. They are good. They have pure hearts. They have pure intentions. But if you have the best intentions, just because you're a good person and you have good intentions is not going to make you a good piano player or a good tennis player. If you want to be good at those things, you have to actually learn those skills.

And that's what we're saying here. Just because we're in the church and we're a good person and we go to church does not mean we're going to get a great marriage, because you'll only get that if you have great marriage skills. You're not going to be a great parent, because you're only going to get that if you have great parenting skills. You're not going to be great at money and finances. You're only going to do that if you have great finance skills. All of those are things you can learn.

But if the church continues to only focus on the basics, like pray, read your scriptures, go to church, and that's all you ever do, that's not going to produce these higher level results. It's not going to get you to a better marriage just because you continue to pray and go to church. Well, it won't even get you better spiritual results, because there are spiritual skills and practices too. Exactly. So if you're just checking the boxes going through emotions, your little Sunday school answers. Which again, giving.

Rachel Denning (01:21:02.431)
the do where it belongs, yes, that's a great starting point for a lot of people. They need that. You need to start there. Because they have nothing else. Yeah. But at some point, that's no longer enough. Just like if you start doing push -ups and you do five push -ups a day, at some point, that's no longer good enough. You have to start doing more push -ups or different exercises. And it's the whole idea of the like.

Was it Paul that talked about the milk and the meat and we need milk before me? And that's true. Absolutely. You need milk before me. But at what point are we going to start serving up the steaks and the roast? I'm dead serious. And when you bring this up, like, you know, it's pride again. It must be pride. you want, if you're tired of milk and you want a steak, it must be pride. Or who do you think you are? Or you got to keep helping the people are still in the milk. Like.

No, when are we going to actually get some nourishment? Because you can't live on milk alone. And like, come on. Where are we going here? And so I get it. It's a criticism. It's difficult. It's a complicated conversation. But there has to be, I think, better performance across the board. And we have to take what's available to us and do a much, much better job all around. And I think that that.

begins in simple ways by simply being allowed to ask questions, even allowing yourself to ask questions. Kind of back to my journey and my story that I sharing, I left my religion and then I came back to it and it became the foundation of our life together and I still feel plays a very important role. But it was because I was sincerely seeking truth.

that I was willing to ask hard questions. was willing to dig into evolution to find out if that was real, if I believed that, and if I could believe in evolution and still believe in Christ, still believe in God. Like I was willing to take this journey and one of the things I remember when I was specifically learning about evolution, there was a Christian man who was talking about it and in passing he just said something like, God is not afraid of my questions.

Rachel Denning (01:23:20.971)
Like there's no question I could come up with that he's going to be shocked by. what? no. I can't believe you came up with that or you thought that, you know. He's not afraid of our questions and he's not afraid of us questioning. So we need to also be not afraid of that. We need to be willing to face it, be willing to go there. There's another thing that Jordan Peterson loves to say or quote and I don't know if it comes from like King Arthur or the Knights of the Round Table.

something else but it's essentially this idea that

The very thing you need in your journey exists in the place you're most afraid to look. He's quoting Carl Jung. Yeah. But I'm also mixing it because there is a story from the Knights of the Round Table when they go in search of the Holy Grail. And each one of the knights, they essentially were told or just did this where they.

when they went to search for the Holy Grail, they went and they looked at the forest and the darkest part of the forest is where they began their journey. So it's this idea that the very thing you need to help you on your journey of growth and transformation exists in the place you are afraid to look. For me, years ago, that was evolution. Like I was just terrified to dive into studying evolution because I thought, this is true, then that means everything I believe is not true. And so how could I?

could I do that? I would rather remain in ignorance and in my beliefs, you know, holding on to my faith than to actually find out for sure if that was true. And that taking that journey actually deepened my faith and helped me to believe more because of what I was willing to face and question and examine. The unexamined life is not worth living, you know, and we have to be willing to embrace and go on that journey.

Rachel Denning (01:25:16.299)
Yes, and it's fear that's keeping us from looking inside at ourselves and at the church and looking outside for other sources of truth and understanding. we're so terrified and we're terrified for ourselves, we're terrified for our kids, but we're living in fear and we're basing our decisions, our actions, our habits in fear. And that's always going to be a limited life. Well, okay, one of the things I loved, because...

We are, as a family, we're studying Exodus. We're going through the Exodus series with Jordan Peterson and other scholars. And one of the things that they were talking about in the lecture we were watching yesterday was this idea of spoiling the Egyptians. And it's essentially when Moses is leading them out, or God's telling them, telling Moses that when you leave, when the Israelites leave, they're going to take or borrow.

jewels and gold and all of these things from the Egyptians. Like they're basically going to be taking it with them and like, okay, thanks, we're going take this to use it. And they end up using it, one, to build a golden calf, but they also end up later using it to build the tabernacle, the temple. And so there's this whole idea that exists of spoiling the Egyptians, which is essentially being able to look.

around you in the world, look at the foreign, look at the things that are strange and outside of what your culture or belief system is. And being able to find truth there, being able to find jewels and gold and things of value and bringing that in to your belief system and being able to incorporate it and to make use of it. Now the point they were saying with the story is that yeah there is a danger there. You could bring this in and it could become a false idol.

And we've seen that happen. We've seen that happen with our own, some of our friends and family members. They go looking outside and they find these truths out The very first thing they find, like, what? This is true. And then that now becomes their false idol. This golden calf that they begin worshiping is like, no, this is the thing. we're like, you like, that's great. But there's more. Keep walking the labyrinth path. You're going to find more. Right. And so.

Rachel Denning (01:27:29.803)
That's the danger, but as you continue to grow, you actually realize, I can build a temple with this. Like, I can use this to add to what I know. And so they said, you know, specifically the Hebrews at the time were very good at that. They were very good at bringing in all this foreign outside ideas and wisdom and incorporating it. And that is also the foundation of, in essence, of Western civilization, where it's founded on the Bible, but it's also...

It incorporates Greek thinking and Islam and all of these outside ideas have been brought in. All of this outside truth has been brought in and incorporated to create something even better, even stronger, even more holistic. It's like this bringing all truth into one whole, right? So I really feel like that is one of the reasons people are disengaging in church and religion is because

that's in some ways not allowed, it's not permitted to bring in these foreign ideas and so people will begin to study outside ideas and foreign ideas and maybe they'll even start reading Buddhist texts or Hinduism or whatever which I've read all those things and it's great there's truth to be found there but then because they can't talk about this with anyone else they don't know where to have these conversations. Because they've been kind of

either blatantly or kind of subconsciously taught that, you know, where they are is the only source of truth and you don't look for truth outside of that. Right. So then they go out and they find something that's true. Yeah. Christianity is the only source of truth. No. And then they want to question everything. There's truth in Buddhism and there's truth in Hinduism. was told that the only truth was in our little church. Right. So but then because they don't have a place like you were talking about, like where is a place to have these conversations, to have these discussions? There's nowhere for people.

to discuss this and so they end up having to leave their own religion in search of a community where they can have these conversations, where they can say, hey, you know what, I've been reading the Bhagavad Gita and I've been thinking about this and I've been wondering like, you know, how does this play in or does it play in or is it a complete contradiction to Christianity or what, you know, like we should be able to have those conversations instead of.

Rachel Denning (01:29:52.811)
feeling like there's something wrong with you or you're bad or you're questioning and so now you're on a path to hell. know, when the reality is if we look at prophets and anyone who grows in their spiritual journey, that's just a normal part of it. That is the path. That's how you get there. And we need to incorporate that into our religion so that it provides that foundation.

walking the spiritual journey. and shouldn't it be like the best place? Right, it should be. On a Sunday somebody walks in and says, I'm honestly questioning the existence of God. don't know. I'm struggling, wondering what's true. That should be the perfect place. You should walk in and and everyone in the room should be like, yeah.

I've been there. I've been there. What are you thinking? Let's talk through it. You need to have more faith. You're a sinner. Like what are you in shame? Bad, bad, bad. Let me let me tell you how it is. Like, no, let's let's talk about it. The devil is. Yeah. Satan, let me cast out your devil. Your evil is like, no, I'm just doubting. Right. I'm wondering. Doubt's a great thing. Doubt is a great thing. It is because it can bring us to deeper, stronger truth.

Well, and I love this idea of wrestling with God because in essence, that's what we should be doing. We should be having a wrestle with God. We should be struggling and trying to figure things out. And like, you know, the metaphor of wrestling is great. there's kind of some confusion going on there and some twisting and turning and some pain even. broken legs. Yeah. You know, because Jacob wrestled with God and when he was done, he had a limp.

Like he hurt himself and he was limping. And so yes, sometimes that's going to be a part of the process. But I think because we're afraid of that, we're afraid of that journey, that wrestle, we shy away from it and we instead prefer to remain comfortable with what we know rather than embracing the unknown. Right. Or we mistakenly think that in order to be good and righteous, there's no wrestling. no wrestling involved. I just blindly, OK, yes, yes, yes, yes. Exact obedience. And you become.

Rachel Denning (01:32:17.717)
Like that's not more righteous. That's not more spiritual. That's more naive and more underdeveloped. That just blind acquiescence to anything like I'm not going to think about it. I'm not even going to wrestle with it. I'm not going to question. I'm not going to try to understand it and really examine it. I'm OK. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That doesn't make you better. It makes you weaker. Right. And I know I'm there it is. I just shot another sacred cow.

Because you think, the most righteous, the most spiritual just, they don't question anything. They don't doubt. There's no wrestling involved. It's just following along peaceably. And like, yeah, but you literally know nothing. And so when You remain underdeveloped, especially, sorry, Tina, go Well, just when you come face to face with something down your path, it's going to wreck you. Yes. Because you haven't examined it.

because you're underdeveloped. especially if we continue this metaphor, one of the very best things for the development of children is roughhousing and wrestling. The research on that is clear. Children who wrestle with, usually their fathers, have just a much more developed brain. They have a much better grasp on the world. Not just the physical world, because that's a part of it.

but even the social world, learn boundaries about how to interact and like how far is too far and how much is too much pain. And like there's so much they're actually learning in that process that is helping with the development of their brain that I think is also happening with our wrestle with God. Like when we wrestle with God, we are learning more about ourselves. We're learning more about God. We're learning more about how things work. We're just understanding things better because we are having this wrestle with him.

And makes us stronger, obviously. makes you stronger. That's so simple. So there's one other, I guess, viewpoint I want to put on this. Because I remember hearing a few years ago, we were in Norway having an amazing experience on one of our trips. In fact, we had gone to visit the Sami people, who are indigenous people in Norway, and they're reindeer herders. And they have reindeer. And we got to feed the reindeer and take little reindeer.

Rachel Denning (01:34:40.341)
rides and it was like so cool. But I remember some friends of ours, were talking and they were talking about business. But I thought how applicable the metaphor they were using was to this idea that we had been developing about religion. And it was essentially this idea that anyone in business who has created a successful business has had to fail at

And I think the word that he used was cycling. You have to cycle through, usually a couple of times. Meaning you had to try to build something and then fail and then start again and fail again. So you had to cycle in business in order for you to, one, be able to actually succeed on a big level. And two,

Rachel Denning (01:35:32.011)
Some of the people couldn't even have a conversation with you about what you needed to do until you had cycled. Right, exactly. And they didn't have the strength, the solidity. They hadn't been through the process. They hadn't been through the process. They hadn't walked the labyrinth, right? And I thought at the time, I'm like, that's exactly what has to happen with people in the church. Like, in Christianity, unless you have cycled, unless you have gone through having some doubts and facing some of those fears and...

asking some of those scary questions and killing some of those sacred cows, it's almost like you can't really have a conversation with them because there are so many things that are off limits. You can't even bring it to the table because they will immediately be like, blasphemy or apostasy. so I guess, I mean, I don't know what the point of bringing this up is except that.

If more of us, I guess, are willing to cycle, we're willing to walk the labyrinth, we're willing to face the doubts, we're willing to go to the darkest place and seek truth, then change can actually occur, right? Then change can begin. Then we can have more conversations with people and... And, I emphatically say, and have deeper faith.

stronger faith, a better closer relationship with God, and better results. And results don't lie. Well, and be able to have some of those conversations about how to get better results in the organizations that we belong to, or in some cases even to focus on perhaps home church, know, supported home church, supported by the church organization, but have it be home centered, you know, they may...

The point is to be able to have conversations about where do we go? How do we make this better? How do we create transformation? How do we create change? And that may look different for different people because one of the things that you've often pointed out is that if you look at contemporary profits, profits that were contemporary to each other, that they were often given completely opposite commands, right? Depending on the needs of the people. And so sometimes some of us will get one

Rachel Denning (01:37:57.803)
command or calling to do something a certain way and others of us will get a different calling to do it a different way. Like maybe some of us will be called to get really involved in whatever church we're in and some of us may be called to take our, do church at home or to not necessarily start our own church but you know start your own branch or congregation or something like just leading a certain group of people. Again, sacred cow where that just seems like,

scary. are you saying? are you talking about? But I just feel that we meet people. want to share. Remember, a friend of ours, just like absolute pure salt of the earth. And we met him at a humanitarian organization and then we went out to lunch with him and he's like, no, I like I want to go be a missionary for the next 50 years. He's like, I just want to go. I'm going to dedicate my whole life.

Well, but interestingly enough, he wanted to do it in like war torn areas. Yeah. I want to go to the just the most devastated places on the planet. And I want to spend 50 years as a missionary for Christ. And I was like, Whoa. Like, OK, I spent a couple of years. I thought it was amazing. You want to spend your whole life like that's another level of awesome. And the more you start

getting out and meeting people and seeing what's possible. it wasn't like it wasn't his specific congregation that was calling him to do it. He felt called as an individual to dedicate his life to being a missionary. God was calling him. Like, okay, that's amazing. Yeah. And that's possible. And we keep meeting these wonderful people. Because I remember years ago, I thought, no, that's not possible. You can't.

You can't like be off in isolation and become truly spiritual and righteous and be saved. You have to be attending church and fulfilling your church callings. And you realize, wait a minute, there's people out like doing their fulfilling a calling directly from God that puts the rest of us to shame. Like our little Sunday check the boxes and like, I...

Rachel Denning (01:40:24.225)
took cookies over to the neighbor I think I just got my ticket to heaven and and others are out there like doing the real work you know they just went on their own right anxiously engaged in a good cause of their own free will and choice like whoa wait what that's another level of pure awesome sauce okay if you listen to this all the way to the end Wow

Wow! Okay, we love you guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for thinking about this. Let's all move towards greater faith, better, closer, stronger relationship with God, and examine how we can help things be better, how we can question things and encourage improvement across the board so that we can help.

let our light so shine before the world that they can see our good works and glorify God. That's also a commandment but that's that's that's the goal to shine. So love you guys thanks for listening. Reach upward