#296 How to Respond to/Deal With In-Laws and Others Who Oppose Your Extraordinary Lifestyle Choices

Greg & Rachel Denning 
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We're your host, Greg and Rachel Denning. Today we're going to talk about a tough subject. Today we might offend some people. Well, we probably offend somebody every time we share a podcast.

And we don't want to be insensitive because it's a challenging topic. Or intentionally offensive. Right. Like I'm not saying we're trying to intentionally offend people, but what we're going to say might be offensive. And actually we're going by the nature of the subject. We're going to encourage you to... Potentially be offensive. Be offensive. Not that we're out trying to offend people, but as we get into this, you'll realize in order for us to truly

Dan'd.

for something, it necessarily is abrasive to others. We wish it wouldn't be. I don't go around desiring to be abrasive, if you remain quiet, well, if you remain quiet, you're resentful. You don't get your way and you're upset. taken advantage of. You don't get to your standards. Yes, exactly. So you think by being quiet, like, okay, I'll avoid.

I'll prevent any kind of bristling or contention or confrontation, but that's just not true. Besides the fact that you end up losing because you're not being true to yourself, your ideals, your goals, dreams. And you said something about, know, it's not like we're trying to be offensive, but I think what we are trying to be is defensive. Meaning we're, you know, We've talked before about having the fortress, having the boundaries. If you're trying to create an extraordinary family.

Greg & Rachel Denning (02:38.658)
you have to have that fortress in place. That's a defense. That's a defensive move. But unfortunately, as we move through the world with that fortress, it can become offensive to people because they're like, what is this? Why do you have this boundary here? What's wrong with you? Like, just let it be, just let it go. Like, everything's good, you know, just relax a little bit. And if we decide to not relax because we're like, no, this is a standard I want to hold.

then yeah, people can be offended by that. And what they're saying by relax is, lower your standards to mine. Right? Lower your standards. And this is, It's especially true and painful when the people you're related to or around, surrounded by have really low standards and they don't want to be called out. They don't want to be held to your higher standard because that means a lot more effort and means they're failing.

And so obviously they're like, come down here. Stop trying to rise. Who do you think you are? you're better than us. We're not good enough. mean, all the insecurities come up and we're to get into that today, but, but right out the gates, we all just have to settle that in our minds that if we choose to have high standards and high values and hold boundaries, it's going to cause some.

Ruffled feathers. Ruffled feathers. There's just going to be conflict. Not even necessary conflict. There's going to be... Friction. Friction. Yeah. There's no getting away from it. So if you think you can live a phenomenal life and avoid friction, nope, not going to happen. And we thought we could. You and I did. We wanted to. We so desperately wanted to chase our dreams and just make everybody happy. Well, and so we received a question from someone.

And maybe I'll read that first before I share a little bit about our own story because I want to go back to that. remember early on, I mean, we were in our twenties when we started pursuing what I now call our extraordinary life. And I remember some of that bristling and some of that butting heads with family members and friends. were so excited about what we were learning and discovering. were everybody should know this. You guys, hey, everybody, this is amazing. And the reaction.

Greg & Rachel Denning (05:04.974)
was not what we expected. Was painful to the point of tears and frustration like what is going on? Here we are so excited about potential and dreams and living in a better way. obviously sometimes some things are like well it's not necessarily better it's just a preference but some things truly are better. Right. And in those cases you're like hey this is a better way. There's no way you can argue that. This is a better way to live and it wasn't.

received well or at all. In fact, there was, there was a backlash. We're like, what, what's going on? How could people not be excited about this? And that's kind of what the question refers to. Yes. Okay. So I'm going to get started. It's actually kind of three questions in one, but we're going to go through it and see how much we get, get to. Okay. First of all, how do you deal with family?

who either disagree with or are made uncomfortable by your lifestyle without feeling like you just need to leave them behind. That's question number one. So good. Question number two. How does Rachel ever feel that the reassurances from Greg aren't just him trying to make her feel better while inside he's secretly resenting her for not being more doormat-ish?

Kind of like that. Let's do that one first. Let me read the third one. How far should you go to protect your kids from bad habits encouraged by extended family members? That goes with question number one. I've heard you talk about how you can't and you shouldn't keep your kids safe from every outside influence, but what about your family? I feel like kids take what grandparents and cousins say more...

seriously than what neighbors or friends say. That can be true sometimes. Yeah. Good. These are, these are such important questions and very relevant and very real for most people. Exactly. Especially anyone who's trying to pursue a different path. Yes, definitely that. Anyone who is trying to live in an extraordinary way, you are going to at some point encounter all of these questions. And I know that we have. Okay. So you want to start with number two first. Yeah. So basically,

Greg & Rachel Denning (07:29.208)
from what I gather here, and this is relevant to a lot of people. It's like, hey, we wanna hold a high standard. We wanna do things. have my family, my extended family, we have your extended family, so my in-laws and your in-laws, and then all the people we associate with, so friends, community, neighbors, whatever. And I think what she's asking there is like, how do I know that...

How did you know, Rachel, that I'm actually supporting you and I'm saying what I mean, not just saying it. I'm just saying, yes, dear. And I'm resentful. you say, dear. And I hope, man, that no man ever wishes his wife would be more doormat-ish. Well, you hope in vain because There are plenty of men out there who definitely want doormat wives. And I just can't.

understand that I would love to have a conversation with those men sincerely I would love to is like hey wait a minute okay you want your wife to just be a yes wife so she just says yes dear to whatever you say and it's your way and you're mr. macho tough guy and you call the shots around here and she just says yes here and you're like yeah like I'm the man you get an empty shell of a wife a resentful wife a wife that's not open and developed and cultivated and blossoming

You get this wife that just is outwardly submissive, inwardly pissed and resentful. Like you're not getting a real woman in your marriage. And so you just have this roommate. you, you're just, you're just sabotaging your own marriage and your own success. And no wonder you don't get sex very often. And if you do, it's like submission sex or duty sex. it doesn't, in fact, I saw something the other day, told tangent.

It's like this lady was, she's like, Hey, this is an honest question. She's like, is, a woman's sex drive, directly connected to how she's treated? might even do a podcast. That'd be, that'd be great podcast episode. Anyway, from, from me, I decided years and years and years ago, because the way I grew up, there was a lot of insincere people around me. They would say one thing, do another.

Greg & Rachel Denning (09:51.406)
the doorbell would ring and they're like, hey, yeah, oh, it's so good to see you. The door would close. I'm like, as a little kid, I'm like, that's so bogus. You were just screaming at me and beating me with a spatula and now you're like, actually the door opens and you're like the happiest person on earth. Like that's so incongruent and so fake and phony. So I had just the disdain for that incongruence. And so for me personally, if I say it, I mean it.

And like, if I don't mean it, I'm not going to say it. I will bite my tongue or I'll just tell you what I think. So in our specific case, I'm never going to say something to Rachel. I'm not going to say anything to you that I don't mean. But she's asking, well, how do I know that? And I think from my side... Ask him.

Well, where I was going to go. From my side, yeah, I didn't necessarily know that about you 100 % when we were newly married. You kept asking. And over the years I would, I would just straight up ask because I think that this is a very natural, normal feeling from a wife. Yep. Like no woman wants to feel like you're just reassuring her, but it's all pretend, right? She wants to know that that- many men do do that. She wants to know that that reassurance is real.

So for me, I would just ask, and again, I've asked multiple times over the years, like, are you just saying that or do you really feel that way? And I would push a little bit on that, because I'm like, I wanna know, I need to know, I need to know that you're on board with me or that you understand at least, or that you're not just reassuring me just to make me feel good, but that you actually, if you disagree, I want you to disagree and let's talk about it. That's the ticket right there.

And many wives, well, and husbands, make their spouse afraid to tell the truth. So if I'm afraid of your reaction or overreaction, then I can't be honest with you. So you're like, do you really mean that? Do you really mean that? I'm sitting there saying, man, I can't say that I don't because if I say that I don't, I'm going to get the full load of wrath. And so I'm going to keep lying.

Greg & Rachel Denning (12:07.054)
So it like compels me to lie because I'm so afraid of your reaction. So if your spouse is afraid to tell you the truth, who's made him or her afraid to tell the truth? Well, you have. Well, and I think an important distinction in this is because I've also had to learn more about myself to know that sometimes I don't want your honest opinion per se.

or your disagreement or your debate, I really just want your reassurances, right? On some level. And so I've learned to be able to say to you, hey, I do want your opinion right now and let's discuss it versus I'm not in that space. don't, let's not go there. Instead, just listen and let me vent and voice my feelings and at least make me feel like I'm not.

crazy or psycho, you know what mean? Because I think ultimately in some ways, if I'm not looking to have a discussion with you, because there's times when I aren't and I'm just looking for reassurance, the reassurance is like, hey, this is what I'm thinking and feeling. Help me know I'm not crazy. If you could summarize it, I think that's what it is for a woman. Help me know I'm not crazy by me sharing my thoughts and feelings about this. I think that's a good way to articulate it. But it's also can be very challenging. Yeah.

Because in the moment, I might be like, well, I don't agree with you. And that might not be the moment to disagree. So it be like, well, I have a different perspective or yes, I can reassure you like, okay, hey, we're good. We'll talk about it And then in a different moment, we can talk through the differences of opinions. So sometimes you just need reassurance. Like, am I crazy? Am I going too far? And okay, totally honestly.

Sometimes, yes, women get too emotional or too whatever and they go too far. too skewed or too... Yeah, they get into it and get kind of myopic and passionate. And very often, it's the role of a good husband is to protect his wife from herself sometimes, occasionally. sometimes there's not going to be reassurance like, hey, babe, sorry on this one. It's too much. It's too far. it's too much.

Greg & Rachel Denning (14:27.852)
Yeah. And that's hard. Definitely. And a wife has to be open to that happening occasionally where he's like, no, sorry, babe, on this one, I'm not with you. And that's going to be uncomfortable and difficult. And I think that it works best in those situations when we understand each other enough that, because it's one thing, and you could totally say to me, I disagree with you, but I also...

don't think you're crazy. I can understand why you have that viewpoint. That's a reassurance. But if you do that, then at the times when you say something like, no, that's too far, it's too much, then I can take you seriously and not be too hurt by it because I know that you're going to, like you said, you're protecting me. Yeah, exactly. You are there to protect me. You are there to be this sounding board, this mirror so I can see, okay, help me understand myself here.

Have I gone too far? Is it too much? Am I going crazy or is this sane? Like it's very helpful to have that. And so when you have those honest opinions and can reassure me, even if you disagree versus actually telling me when it's too much, then that is so beneficial. mean, that is one of the major benefits of having a marriage relationship because you have that person there to help you in your own development without

you know, because there is definitely, we see it all the time. And I think this is what happens often with couples that get divorced. the most, okay, one of the things you see in your coaching too often, unfortunately, is that when a man and woman don't have that type of relationship, the woman in trying to seek that out and that reassurance that the support, that care she,

pretty much does start going crazy. Like one of the most common things you see is women who go manipulative, narcissistic, neurotic. I mean, they literally almost go crazy. And I think that that comes from not having this sort of stable relationship where it's a checks and balances where you're going to reassure me when I'm within proper bounds. But when I get out of those bounds, you're going to let me know. And I'm not going to take it so personally that I just think

Greg & Rachel Denning (16:52.174)
You're just a horrible person. I hate you. You don't even care. Like that balance is so powerful for maintaining that. Not only the stability of the relationship, but the stability of the individual in that relationship, because I really do believe it's this. The man, woman's like the ocean. Yeah. And so, so much emotion there and the waves and the winds and the storms. And so you're right. We have to have this safe, gentle, but strong boundary.

where you feel, hey, there's some certainty here, there's some security, there's, can count on this. And it has to be done tactfully it's going to keep me within the bounds that keep me healthy, keep our relationship healthy, keep the family healthy, et cetera. I love it. I do see it sometimes when the driven, ambitious wives are chasing dreams and going after it and they're go-getters and their husbands are afraid and timid and small-minded.

And they're just back there like, stop, no, stop. And it doesn't matter what she does, everything she does. No, stop, stop too much. you're making me uncomfortable. Stop that. And in that case, I'm like, no dude, level up. Let's go. Keep up with her. Don't tell her to slow down. Pick up the pace, man. So when that's happening, it's a different story. So anyways, that's good. short answer for this is literally just ask. Yeah, just ask. Are you just telling me this just to appease me or?

Do you really, are you really truly reassuring me? Whether or not you agree or not, is this a real reassurance or just a? The foundation under that question means you guys could be able to have an honest dialogue and really talk things out. like, hey, let's be honest, let's be sincere. You gotta be able to tell me if you really mean that or if you don't. And if you don't, let's talk through it. Right. And I think especially in the context of all of these questions that yeah, you need to be able.

And this is one of the hardest parts, I think, about getting into an intimate relationship with someone. And I don't know how else to word this without it sounding wrong, but you have to be able to talk about your family. You have to be able to talk about your parents. Like honestly. And your siblings. Just talk about your family. one of you getting offended, like, how dare you could say that about my mom? You know, like.

Greg & Rachel Denning (19:15.328)
And it's not, again, it's not meant to be offensive or rude, but you do need to have open conversations. Like I noticed your mom does this and you do too. And I don't think that that's something we want to pass to our children. Yes. Like you have to be able to have those conversations. So, okay. And this sounds so crazy, but you're, you're 100 % right. You have to be able to talk about your family, about your extended family members. So Rachel and I have to be able to talk about the family I grew up in and we have to be able to talk about the family she grew up in.

because only through having conversation and dialogue, kind of disconnected, disinterested and detached is the word. So in a detached way, that's the only way we're gonna get to a clear understanding of how we're gonna raise our immediate family, our children in a good, healthy way. Because if you're too attached or I'm too attached or blinded, because how dare you suggest that my family isn't

Right. Or if it has flaws, how dare you? Yes. It's like, look, just because it's my mom and my dad and my siblings doesn't mean that what they did and what they're doing is right or best. And I have to be able to attach from that. have to look at them and be like, look, I love you. I'm grateful that you raised me. You are my family. But I'm taking this other path because I think it's better. Well, and yes, and at some point we, you may need to have that conversation.

with your extended family, but you have to first be able to have that conversation with your spouse. Yes. You know? And get clear. Get really clear. Because you don't, you also don't want to go around saying that kind of stuff to people unless it's about the things that you're really certain about. Like, no, we are going to take this path. I've thought about it long and hard. I've analyzed it. Like, I know this is the correct path for us and that's going to ruffle some feathers here, but I have certainty about it.

because I think that's where the power comes. And as we get into this, I think that's where the real power comes. You have to have certainty. You have to know that this is what you want for your family and this is what you're going to do. And be able to back it up with knowledge and results. Now, results come along the way. Well, let's dive into our story a little bit because, well, dive into our story, but jump ahead. You know, for us,

Greg & Rachel Denning (21:43.606)
we started pursuing a different path. And like we hinted at, was, we got kicked back despite the fact that we were all excited about it. we're like, my, to us, it was a revelation. We started reading. Specifically is like home birth, home education, pursuing wealth, eating healthy food. Like, yeah. Reading like crazy living. then eventually living.

very unconventionally traveling the world with our family. Becoming location independent. Like, you know, a lot of things. But it started with these ideas that I felt to us were revelations. We kind of felt like, my gosh, this is new information in the world. Nobody's, not that nobody, but you know, like our family had never talked about it. We didn't know anything about it. And so it felt like a revelation. And so we kind of took this approach of like, we're spreading the good news here. Like, wow, look at what we discovered guys.

Aren't you going to be so excited to hear this? And for many of them, they weren't that excited. And in fact, it made them very uncomfortable. made them angry, defensive, defensive. Yeah. And, but then fast forward, you know, now here we are. We've been, we'll be married 24 years this, this year. We've been traveling full time for 18 years, right? Our oldest children are now.

22, 20, 19, and 18. So we now have the results. Like we have the results. Our children are amazing. They're thoughtful, intelligent, like competent. You know, they have all of these positive benefits. And so when people look at us now, they're like, oh, okay. Before we were telling you, you're gonna ruin your kids and you better.

put them back in school and you're about, know, all this. And now they're like, oh, actually your kids turned out pretty good. So, okay, you have the results. So that part is kind of harder to do because you're not going to see the results for many, many years. Well, unless you can start getting them yourself with like, for example, health and fitness, eating certain things. But I think it's important to point out there. We're not striving for okay.

Greg & Rachel Denning (24:03.022)
And most society will use that. You'll hear people say that all the time, you're like, well, I turned out okay, or my kids turned out okay. And that's their defense. They're like, hey, no, we're going to do things differently. Why? We did it this way and we're okay. You know, we're okay. My kids survived. Yeah. And so I like, if survival and okayness is your goal, then that's obviously where we're going to disagree with a lot of people is like, well, I'm not interested in okay. Yeah. I'm not interested in survival.

I'm not sitting here thinking as a parent like, I hope my kids survive. Right. You and I are. I hope my kids are okay. I hope they become okay people. I'm not interested in that at all. So that's the first point of distinction there. If I'm around people that are interested in okay, I'm like, well, yeah, we're just going for phenomenal health and fitness, world-class education, wealth, amazing experience. Extraordinary We are going for an extraordinary family life. So that's why we do things differently.

that is an important distinction. Okay. So you're going to interact with your own family, your own extended family and in-laws and others, cousins, grandparents, whatever. They're going to have different views. So let's just throw out some scenarios that are pretty common is the food thing. Man, that seems for this generation, that seems to be a thing. it is definitely, it was a thing. It is a thing with, with my mom.

when we go visit her and always has been, we grew up eating garbage food and then they still eat garbage food. So of course, my siblings and their cousins nearby, just tons of garbage. So whenever we go to eat or go to visit, we are teaching our kids like, hey, we're not gonna consume that stuff. And there's been conflict, bristling, friction, there's been friction. It was like that a little bit with your family.

early on, but then when your dad got sick, that got a lot better fast. But then it was still with your extended family. It comes up when we get together. Right. Because I think for some reason it impacted my, I'm the oldest of six children. so my dad's diagnosis of cancer, the week we met and then his subsequent death two years later, like it really had a huge impact on me. it has definitely influenced and impacted my own health journey.

Greg & Rachel Denning (26:27.618)
And I've been obsessed with studying it ever since. so that has had a long-term impact on me, but with the rest of my family, not as much. And so they do still definitely, you know, do the junk food and whatnot, but at this point, they pretty much know where we stand. so the approach. And I think I would like to do it differently if we could do it over. mean, we did it, but there was some conflict. I would do it differently. Like now I'm like, I don't, I don't have to participate.

I don't have to eat that stuff. If we go over to visit and everyone's eating crap, I don't have to eat it. And I can be totally okay with that, even if I have to go hungry. Like, I'm okay with that. I'd rather go hungry and pleasant and stay engaged the whole conversation. We're having a fantastic time. I don't need anything. Even if they are giving a hard time and making comments and asking and what. But I think that that comes with...

maturity and experience and again, back to the confidence and certainty in your own choices, in your own understanding, it is more difficult and I remember this in our own journey, it's more difficult to face that quote unquote peer pressure when you're young, when you're uncertain, when you're simply going off, well, hey, I listened to this podcast and they said, you know, it's kind of like, really? Okay. Well, maybe you need to listen to a different podcast, you know.

But it's pretty easy to set a base layout. I guess I want to share this for people who are listening. Where do I draw the line? It's like, well, seed oils and refined sugars and highly processed foods, junk food, Which is a whole episode we've done on health and like, we don't want to go down that tangent too far. you can draw that line right there and be like, okay, any of that stuff I'm not going to eat and I don't want my kids to eat it. then if they, you can ask them and man, this comes up all the time in coaching sessions.

You can ask your in-laws or your extended family, say, please don't feed that to my kids. OK, but this does... know what it is with grandmas. I know there is something. And grandpas that they do it behind your back or they do it right in front of your face. Yeah, because this gets into because after the questions here, she does go into more details. And this is one of the problems, because despite the fact that she's asked, I don't want these things fed to my child. Well, yeah, they just do it.

Greg & Rachel Denning (28:46.798)
does it anyway. And I hear this a lot. So please don't think this is a rare thing like, there's only like five families. Like I hear this all the time. I don't know what it is with current grandparents. They just are like junk to the ground, just free flow with total disregard to the parents wishes. And I think that this does come back to... I mean, I would do the opposite if our kids for some weird reason were like, don't give my kid meat. I'm going be like...

slipping steak under the table to my grandkids. Wait, you're doing the same thing, but you're just doing I'm to do it opposite because I'm going be like, look, this is really healthy. This is really, really good for you. I'm going to be... Okay, but that's kind of eggs under the table. That's kind of proving the point though. You're doing what you think is, in this case, best. But that's why I'm doing it. I'm doing it because I think it's best. They know it's not. Okay, but here's the problem, and I think this is the crux of the issue.

they're thinking probably in their minds, I raised my kids on this. Like this is what I did. So basically now if you're telling me I shouldn't be feeding this to your child that you're saying I'm a bad parent because I fed it to my kids. Well, and here's the problem in almost every instance I can think of, the grandparents are unhealthy and the people around them are unhealthy. Even some of their own children are unhealthy. And I can think through multiple situations and scenarios like this where, especially if you're overweight, obese, which is

We don't have to look far to find that. It's what, 77, 80 % of Americans are overweight or obese. So it's very, very common. And so they're eating the junk food and they're eating too much food. It's just prevalent everywhere and people have an unhealthy relationship with food. They're attached to it. They have all this stuff like, why raise my kids on this? And they're okay. It's like...

Yeah, they're not okay. They're not healthy. You're not healthy. But that's why it feels so threatening. And that's the whole point of this question even. The reason why it feels so threatening to them is because by, and we encountered this ourselves, by the very nature of your different lifestyle choices, it becomes a threat to the choices they are currently making and have been making. Like it's like it throws up a mirror in their face saying, look what you've been doing.

Greg & Rachel Denning (31:05.582)
I'm doing something different and they can't not question, even if it's subconsciously, what they've been doing with themselves. And most people don't want to do that. And it's uncomfortable. That's the whole point. It's uncomfortable and so most people avoid it and that's why it is an issue. When you come around, now here you are with your little better way of living and it's...

I don't have to think about it until you show up. it. Yeah. Man. Now you're reminding me of how unhealthy I am. Yeah. And I don't want to face it. I don't want to honestly say, look, I am unhealthy and these choices are not good. Right. But I think where we have to do that, I think at least from my perspective, if I'm going to have a relationship with people, like they don't, they don't have to change whatever they can eat, whatever they want. It's on them. It's like,

If they eat crap, it doesn't affect my health. This affects their own. But I mean, I have to interrupt a little bit here because I feel that in some ways, all of what you're saying is in a way philosophical and more difficult to implement when you have young children. Because now we're in a place where our youngest is seven, our children are...

All used. She's eight now, babe. Oh yeah. Sorry. She's growing up. keep getting older. She's getting older. that happens. Our youngest is eight of seven children and she's our seventh and she's eight. And they're all used to all of our unique lifestyle choices. Our children are. And so when we go to say grandma's house or different places, they are more used to even on their own saying, no, I'm not going eat that or whatnot. It's easier now.

I'm not going to say that it's not. When they were younger, it was much harder. Because they would eat whatever was offered them. Right. That's natural for a child. they preferred the candy and the sugar. Because, and you can do research on this, they literally have chemicals in there that are addicting and make you want to keep eating them and want to eat more of them. Like that's how the foods are designed. So I guess I want to back up a little bit here and talk about

Greg & Rachel Denning (33:21.664)
the potentially very, what's the word here? Offensive approach to take and maybe radical approach to take for many people. And that is to just separate yourself from them. And I think that that, again, that can be, that can sound very judgmental, that can sound very rude, harsh. It can even sound anti-family, which of course it's not.

We are more pro-family than most people I know. But at least in our own journey, and this played a part in it, although it was not necessarily the driving force, you and I were inspired and motivated to go live abroad for the benefits of learning other languages and interacting with other cultures. And so that was our driving force. one of... So created a physical separation.

that allowed us to really fortify our personal family culture. Right. That's what I was going to say. One of the side benefits of pursuing that lifestyle is that we created our own family fortress that was primarily just our own family culture that we got to create. Like you and I were the creators of this family culture. Now I know, you know, there's people on Instagram that would say, well, that's basically like a cult and that's dangerous because you could abuse. Someone said,

Homeschooling is just an excuse to abuse your children without anyone watching, you know? That's what some people think that kind And some people do that. And there are some cultish homeschoolers and there are some abusive homeschoolers. There's definitely a danger there. And so you have to be of sound body and mind to undertake this kind of effort without causing real damage to your children because family can also be a check in checks and balances as well. Right.

So it's difficult to navigate this to like, how much am I really going to be harming and damaging my children with my really extreme zealous views versus no, I'm trying to live at a higher standard mentally, emotionally healthy. I just need to be able to have more direct control over my family fortress, my family environment so that I can break some of these generational patterns like

Greg & Rachel Denning (35:46.038)
Okay, the easy example in this is abuse. know, if there was actual violence and physical or verbal abuse going on, that's an easy call for me. Like, yeah, leave. But, you know, abuse or let's even say neglect can show up in a lot of different ways. And sometimes we might think that it's not as big of a deal, but yeah, to not pass on certain traits like hoarding.

or like filth and disgust or eating habits that are literally causing obesity, cancer, heart disease, know, all of the, now that people know how directly connected it is to food, if you read something like, Why We Get Sick by Dr. Benjamin Bickman, you know, you're going to be clearly seeing like, this is a big deal. I cannot just keep feeding my children these things or allowing them to be fed these things because...

I'm learning that it's poison and the things that it's doing to your body are not good and I don't want my child to end up with childhood diabetes or whatever, know, grow up to have cancer. Well, or you're right, or to be have a really unhealthy relationship with food or to be like you said, hoarder or just to be dirty and filthy or to have a really bad mindset or attitude or because those things can be passed on. I think as we as we assess

Everyone, everyone in our lives needs to be assessed and we can have, um, as Darren Hardy talked about, can have three minute friends or associations. can have three hour associations. can have three day association, three weeks. These are people. Cause he, in his book, I just need to expand on this a little bit. Cause in his book, he talks about how every single person in your life, you have to judge them this way, whether or not you, you can spend

Three minutes with them, three hours, three days. the judgment is, are they gonna have a good positive impact on me? Are they edifying or they tearing me down? Like is being with them help me be better, make me want to be better, or is it toxic? Is it unhealthy, is it just blah? And so everybody, including family, this really gets hard. You're like, wait a minute, I have to judge my own mother? Yes you do. And your brother and your sister and your cousins and nephews and nieces, everybody.

Greg & Rachel Denning (38:09.292)
And be like, you know what? I love them, but they're not a good influence on me or my kids. so honestly, that one, three minutes, 30 minutes, maybe three hours max, and we are out. And so then you go over and you're like, look, we eat healthy every single day. We have great input. If we go over there for three hours and the little ones eat some crap and watch some things and see some stuff.

Then we can talk about it afterwards because they're going to feel like garbage. And they're going to tell you that like, Oh, I have a stomach ache. Yeah. That's what happens when you eat that crap and like, this, that, and they're always, you know, so dirty or so this like, yeah, that's, those are unhealthy things. We don't do that in our family. And you can have a strong enough family culture that you can go out and they can experience it and you come back and it doesn't like, they're not going to become total losers by occasionally.

being exposed to unhealthy habits. Yeah. So essentially you're taking that framework that he offers in this book and applying it to the family members and saying, okay, yeah, maybe, maybe we're not going to move to another country. We're going to continue to interact, but we're going to limit that interaction depending on the, how we qualify them as whether they are a three minute friend or a 30 minute friend or a three hour friend or whatever. Let's, let's say for the sake of

I don't know, extended family, you agree that your in-laws And this would be a conversation you'd have with your spouse, Hopefully, but what I was going to get to is sometimes the spouses are blinded because they grew up in that environment. So they have a hard time seeing it. So let's say for just... I'm going to throw out a hypothetical situation. That your in-laws or even your own parents are pretty unhealthy, right? And unhealthy in a lot of ways, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. And so you're like, three hours. Let's do three hours.

And so you agree to go over there and it's not three hours, three times a week. That's too much. Yeah. On a three hour person, you're like, no, they get three hours like every other, a month. Yeah. And so it's not a lot. And so you go over and maybe the one who grew up there, the husband or the wife, it's easy to like zone out because you're back in your, you're back in this space where you grew up. Right. And so it's like, you kind of

Greg & Rachel Denning (40:32.224)
If you ever experienced this, like you kind of become unconscious. You're just back in your space and it's easy for the one to just kind of miss things. You become clueless, kind of zone out while the in-law is struggling and frustrated like, well, you didn't see this and this interaction and this frustration and you're over there, you know, talking to your siblings, playing games, doing whatever you do. And I'm like, I'm just sitting here hating this.

and doing everything I can to keep my kids from being tainted. Right? And so the challenge is like, make an agreement beforehand and be like, Hey, let's do a couple hours and then we're out. We're like, well, why, why do we need to go? We don't have anything yet. Yeah, we have something. What? I'm going home to read a book. That's what I'm going to go home and eat healthy food. That's what like.

You always have something. I love using that reasoning and I want to share this as a tool. It's like, no, we have something we got to do. Well, what? Well, I have an evening routine. do like whatever, like anything you're going to do that's good. Yeah. I got a podcast on the list too. I got a book I'm going to read. Then I go, can wait. No, it can't. Cause I, I respect myself and I made a commitment. I made a commitment. I'm going to read every night. I'm going to work out and I'm going to do this thing. I have this routine. do these rituals.

So no, I'm leaving. I have a thing, I have plans. And maybe even get there and say, hey, we're staying for a couple hours, I got plans tonight. Right? And like, stand by that stuff. It's an important way and an easy way to hold boundaries. Well, and I think part of this approach, because again, we're not trying to intentionally be offensive to people or trying to make them feel bad. So, you know, we can find ways to do this without telling them...

you suck, I don't want to be around you, you make me feel horrible. You know, we don't want to do that. We want to let them know. I will if people push. If I come in and be like, Well, but you're not going to be it in a rude way of like, you suck. You know, I'm never going to be rude about it, but I'm going to be like, no, no, I don't eat that. Like, what? Why don't you eat this? I'm like, it's not good for me. I'm trying to be super healthy and energized. Right. Wait, what? And if they keep pushing, keep pushing, you're like, why are you avoiding us? What's going on?

Greg & Rachel Denning (42:51.758)
And after tactfully trying for a time, I would say, okay, well, to be totally honest, I'm be kind about it, I'm gonna be smiling, I'm gonna be like, hey look, to be totally honest, I don't want my kids eating any of this. And I've asked you not to have it out, but you still do it. And your results are terrible.

You got it. And this is only if they push, they keep pushing, they keep pushing and they're making this battle of, they're making a big deal of it. I'm just going to be totally honest with them. I'm going to hold up the mirror. I'm like, you're really unhealthy. You're overweight or obese. You're suffering. And I don't want any of that for myself or for my children. So we can come over if none of that is off to the little ones because they're not cognizant enough yet. But if you keep pushing, I'm not coming back.

Yeah. Like we love you. That's great, but we're not doing what you're doing. Right. And, that can be again, very difficult because here you are trying to build this fortress, hold up these boundaries and yeah, they are going to bump it, bump into them and some offense. Absolutely. And so, yeah. So one level is, okay, we're just gonna

take this approach of like, we're not gonna be spending this much time and we're gonna be leaving and whatnot. But then if they do keep pushing and pushing, which is inevitable, especially over time, then yeah, you just have to be able to share and tell them and be upfront and explicit with them, which is where, like that's where the discomfort comes, I think, especially on our side, know, the person doing it because- Particularly the one that's the in-law, it can be even more uncomfortable. But-

Let me give an example. It's inevitable and necessary if you are going to continue to hold these standards, which I applaud. Agreed. This email that I got, kudos to you. Way to go. You should have these standards. You do want this for your family. You don't want to pass this on. Well, I actually wanted to share something because my family...

Greg & Rachel Denning (45:02.19)
My dad's dad was literally a hoarder. That's what I was going to say. Oh my gosh. Because I remember going over there, he had like 13 Yorkies at one time and they're just peeing and pooping all over the floor. He was a hoarder. It was terrible. My grandpa died over a year ago, maybe almost two years now, and I think they're still cleaning out his house because he had so much stuff everywhere, everywhere. And this is the interesting thing.

Growing up, I was never bothered by it. Like I was used to it. Now my family was also pretty messy. I do remember one time when I went to my aunt's house, who she doesn't have any children and she has a very nice, neat, meticulous house. And I think this is when I first discovered that I'm actually a neat person because I came back and I remember crying. Like I miss her clean house. Like I was.

I was actually upset because I missed that order and turns out that's who I am. Like I'm an orderly person. I love my systems and my neatness and all of that. But I didn't know about that about myself and I was used to being in these environments. But I remember years later when I had my own children and actually we had been living abroad. I think we'd been abroad for like seven years and our children had not been to the United States for that long.

And we came back and we went to visit my grandpa because I hadn't seen him for a long time. And I remember thinking, I can't have my kids in this environment. Like it's not sanitary. It's not healthy. And that's when I really began to realize, because I didn't know my grandpa was a hoarder. I just thought, it's my grandpa. It wasn't until even we watched the episodes from the series Hoarders with our own children that I realized my grandpa was a hoarder.

You know? And so I had this realization, but luckily for me, because we had separated ourselves, like I didn't pass it. And because of our lifestyle, which included lots of traveling, which necessarily meant minimalism. Like we couldn't be hoarder. You can't be a hoarder when you're a nomad, right? A traveling nomad. Luckily I had already broken those. Tendencies and temptations. Exactly. I'd already broken that. And so my children didn't have any of those tendencies.

Greg & Rachel Denning (47:25.162)
And I just felt like, this is good. Like I love my grandpa and I love my dad and I love my family, but I am very grateful I did not inherit and pass on those tendencies. So we can have both. can love our family. Even sometimes if we don't speak to them or get along with them, you know, we may go through those periods of time. We can still love them, but sometimes we are going to have to hold up those boundaries and be like, no, sorry, I'm not doing it.

I'm not continuing this because that is not what I want for my own family. And there can be a healthy, kind of happy space of creating some distance. Yeah, absolutely. some time and some distance away, even if you're physically or geographically close, you still, maybe you don't go over as much and maybe you create some space and pull back. I guess for me, I realized like You're not obligated to associate with people just because you're related to them.

And there feels like there's an obligation because there's an expectation. I get that. problem is, let's say your siblings, for example, make different choices or your cousins or aunts and uncles, whatever, they start going down a different path and you're like, well, I have to keep associating with them because I'm related. No, you don't. Right. Like if it was a friend that made those choices, you'd like, we're not friends anymore. Like, sorry. Yeah. And so we're related, but I don't have to spend time with you. like, let me, let me just get

throw that out there for everybody to chew on and maybe accept and take a hold of like, you're not obligated to spend time with them and be around them, especially if their life choices are negatively impacting or could negatively impact your family. Yeah. And I, and it's making me remember another story because any of you who've listened to my podcast know that I was a rebellious teenager. I was into drinking and drugs and things and

When I decided to change my life, like I just had this clarity where I knew what I wanted. I wanted to create a healthy long-term marriage and I wanted to have children. I didn't have the full vision of what we have now. Like that was too far beyond me. But I just knew I want to get married and I want to have kids. And I knew that the life I was pursuing was not going to help me get them. Because everywhere I looked around with my friends and people I knew,

Greg & Rachel Denning (49:48.042)
None of that was happening. There were no happy relationships or marriages or anything. But at the time... Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Same when I was out on my own. Right. I didn't were no happy, healthy relationships. The only one I did know of was my parents. And that's why for me, it led me back to religion because as far as I could tell, that's why they had a good relationship because they were the only ones I really knew who were religious, right?

So that's what led me back to religion. But at the time, I was pretty much best friends with my cousin and I still, I love her. She's an awesome person and I love her a ton. But at that time, I knew that in order for me to make the changes in my life that I wanted to make, I just had to stop associating with her. Now, I probably didn't handle it the best as a 19 year old. I basically just cut her off. I stopped talking to her. I stopped hanging out with her.

I just didn't know what else to do. I just knew I cannot continue to hang out with her because I have to stop doing those things. And sometimes that is a, it has to be a viable option for some people. I get asked that question all the time, like, hey, how do I do this? Like sometimes you just have to walk away. And even though, you know, I know it caused her a lot of pain and I know it hurt her and I feel bad for that, but for my own wellbeing and for the wellbeing of

you and my children, which I didn't know at the time, but I had a vision in my head. I'm like, I have to stop this lifestyle. And it wasn't just her I cut off. I cut off anyone that I had been associating with that was contributing to those activities and behaviors, right? And so in some ways that's an example. And it seems so harsh because you could hypothetically be talking about your mother or your aunt or someone important and special to you that you love and care about. And I get that.

But sometimes in life, we reach these points where we're just like, I have to take a different path. I have to make different decisions. depending on your own mental, emotional.

Greg & Rachel Denning (52:02.506)
spiritual communication abilities, whatever, unfortunately, yeah, maybe sometimes it does just look like cutting them off because, you know, as a 19 year old, I didn't have any other skills to be able to have a conversation with my cousin about like, well, here's my vision and here's what I want. You know, I didn't, I didn't have that ability. I couldn't do that. What I could do was just, sorry, I can't, I can't hang out with you anymore. And there's, it's interesting. As soon you were saying that, it kind of clicked me. like, it's actually the new Testament and Jesus.

told his disciples, like, if there's a person in your life that is bad for you, cut them off. He says that, it's right there, cut it off. Father, brother, mother. He's like, even, yeah, and he specifically mentions immediate family members. if they're in your way of the very best version of yourself, cut them off. Now don't have to be rude, we don't have to be mean, but there is...

ample justification, rationalization to sever some relationships or at least distance them and keep them at a safe distance so that they don't have a negative impact on you and your kids. Yeah, I was just going to say, although to the person it's happening to, it does feel mean or rude. And that's of course the most challenging part of it. And you can try to articulate it. And I would, I again,

And we did this, we had to cut off relationships and then we were able to come back and reestablish them later. Because we tried, we tried holding boundaries, tried holding boundaries, tried holding boundaries and they wouldn't. These people would not respect our boundaries. And so he was like, fine. I told you multiple times, like, fine, we're out of here. And it was years later, we were able to come back and be like, Hey, you keep the boundaries? Like, yeah, I'll keep the boundaries. Like great. Well, can have a relationship again. One example, I think.

was your dad early on. mean, he left when you were young, but then early on in our own marriage, he came around a bit more frequently. And I held up some boundaries for him because he lives a very strange life. Um, and so I held up firm boundaries and he wouldn't. And I said, Hey, look, this boundaries in place. If you don't respect that, you're not welcome. And he's like, I, I'm not going to do that. I'm like, Hey, that's that. And then I don't think we talked for like 11 years. Um, and then.

Greg & Rachel Denning (54:25.046)
you know, later on he was able to respect the boundary. I'm like, yeah, great. Not a problem, but like, I'm going to hold my boundaries because I know exactly what I want, what outcomes I want for my family. And I'm going to hold those boundaries. I'll be kind, but I will be firm. Yeah. And maybe that's part of what we want to emphasize here with this discussion is that even if this kind of step is necessary or required,

you don't have to lose hope. Like there's a long-term, your family is gonna be your family for the rest of your life. So it's not like because you quote unquote cut them off, that that's it. You'll never see or hear them again, from them again. It's likely that you will at some point. But when you take certain steps to show how serious you are about the boundaries you have, it does help them have more respect for them down the road. more respect for you. In fact, like even in our own stories, like,

We went off and created all these results with our crazy ideas. And then like both of our families like, wow, like earned a lot of, we earned a lot of their respect. And in fact, in many instances, they'll come and ask us for advice now and help and like, Hey, what about this? And what about that? Where before it was nothing but criticism and- Well, because we were the crazy ones. Like we just had these crazy ideas in our head that they thought you're just going to ruin your family, right?

And so it's not until you prove how serious you are about your ideas and then eventually start getting the results from them. Prove the validity of your ideas with results. Then the relationship has a chance to change. And again, you might be 20 years old right now thinking 10 years, that's a long time, but trust me, it actually goes pretty fast. And then you're like, oh yeah, it's been 10 years.

And then you have a chance to actually, cause again, it doesn't have to be with bitterness or hatred or like, I'm never talking to you again. I hate you. It's just like, no, I love you, but this is my boundary. I'm going to live my life and I want you to be a part of it as long as you can respect these boundaries. And so we're fully welcome and saying, yeah, be a part of our life. But I'm serious about the boundaries so much so that if necessary, I will separate myself from you.

Greg & Rachel Denning (56:48.144)
man, ladies and gentlemen, I don't know how to emphasize this enough. I think it's one of the most important skills in life is how to clearly establish and hold boundaries. It's getting clear in your own head. So you have to learn how to think and you have to do tons of research. Like, where do I want this boundary? Like at what point is it unhealthy? At what point is it healthy? And you can, your boundaries can go too far or they can be too small or whatever. Like finding where that spot is and then establishing it tactfully, holding yourself to it, holding everybody else to it.

And then when they push against it and they will, just keep it in place. Love you, smile. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. That boundary's there. Don't cross it. Okay, you crossed it. So there's a consequence and usually it means like we're out of here, right? Or you're not welcome back. Or we'll be spending less time with you or yeah. And you let them know, you'd like, Hey, like I tried, I asked. And again, without the fighting, we don't have to fight and get angry and bitter and insult and

call names and have this huge battle. It doesn't have to be a battle. can be honestly, just like we're having this conversation. like, hey, you guys know how strongly we feel about this and you just did it again. So yeah, we're not coming back for a while. Like, yeah, that's just it. Cause we believe in our conviction. So you have to be convicted. And I guess I want to emphasize for all of us listening, like the proof.

The proof for all the great things we want is genuine happiness and health and success. If you are healthy and happy and your kids are healthy and happy and you're getting great results, the results speak for themselves. That's a great thing. If you're miserable and unhealthy and unpleasant and just

struggling, well, you might want to reevaluate. Then your family can say, what's the point of doing all this extra stuff you're doing? It doesn't work. you're not happy. You're right. You're miserable. It doesn't work. It's not working for you. What's the point? if you are, if you're happy and healthy, and then you can see it like they're not happy and they're not healthy and their ideas or ideologies, their lack of standards, whatever, it's like, I don't want that. If you want it, great, that's on you.

Greg & Rachel Denning (59:14.912)
I don't want that. Okay, I think we covered a lot of these, although I want to talk a little bit about this third one. How far should you go to protect your kids from bad habits? Encourage my family. We did talk about it. Yeah, we touched on that. But you know, because again, our, like she says, I've heard you talk about you can't and shouldn't keep your kids safe from every outside influence, you know? But I think if...

If I can emphasize something else here, and I know that for our family, this made the biggest difference is that we did while our children were young, especially because as she mentioned, you know, they are, they are very open to the influence of grandparents and cousins and whatnot. And so as much as possible while they were young and developing their worldview, let's say, we did try to protect that.

as much as possible. Now for us, what that looked like is we literally, when we had four children, ages four and under, we loaded up in our vehicle and we drove to Costa Rica and we lived in Costa Rica and then we lived in the Dominican Republic and then we lived in India and then we lived in Alaska and then we lived in Guatemala all before our oldest daughter was eight. I guess nine by the time we got to Guatemala.

So they were in, in essence, and again, this couldn't sound cultish or dangerous. They were in a bubble. Yes. The bubble was our family culture. We were constantly exposed to friends and community and people in our church. The irony for us was laughable. Like the, some of the worst things our kids were exposed to were other kids at church. They'd bring in like horrendous, terrible stuff. I'm like, this is not the kind of stuff our kids should be exposed to, especially at church.

But you know, kids bring whatever they learn at home in the church Yeah, they were exposed to all of that. But if I'm trying to articulate how this looked, while they were being exposed, the most important, the primary influence in their life was our family culture. Yep. And that's, think, how it should be. Defined by mostly us. Now, that only works because you and I were very, very intentional about studying, researching, reading, like...

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:01:30.37)
We did our homework, we constantly do our homework, we're still doing our homework, so that we were sure we weren't creating a family culture that was toxic or unhealthy or weird or cultish or, yeah. Yeah, when you read a thousand good books and you realize, okay, like there's some substantial evidence here across time and space. And it made me think of, because you and I read a book, the one called Educated by a girl that...

grew up in a very isolated family. Cultish. Cultish, weird family, but that's the case where it didn't work out so well because they were so undereducated, isolated, eccentric, and weren't exposed to the outside world. I'm trying to say there is a danger, right? So be careful. Don't prove your family right by raising a really weird family.

where they're just like, wow, see. They shouldn't have left. Look what they did. Don't do that. Then you're just proving all these people right. We want you to do it in the healthy way so that you create the positive results and you create something that people look at and say, wow, okay, that worked. Again, results, results don't lie. I guess the encouragement, the invitation is be very firm.

spend a lot of time thinking and studying about where it is you want your that's what I'm saying. So study it out, write about, think about it, talk to people, talk to mentors, coaches, like get real solid. And in fact, with the mentors and coaches, only take advice from people who'd be willing to trade places with. Don't take their advice if they don't have the results you want. That's insane. But get clear about it and then practice holding those boundaries. Be so firm and protect those kids.

at all costs, not isolation, not the bubble where they are ignorant, clueless, and naive. I am not talking about that. Our children should not be naive. But they should be shielded. And you're teaching them all along the way. So they see the boundary and they help enforce the boundary as they get older. And they know why the boundary is there and they agree with the boundary and they help establish it and hold it. So they're participating. It's not some blind kid going to the other room and,

Greg & Rachel Denning (01:03:56.984)
Right? Like, we're not promoting naivete here. Yeah. Well, I also, I have to add this because I think people misunderstand us and our approach because while we're saying, hold the boundary, be firm, hold the boundary, some people who have come to stay with us have said, we just thought you guys would be so strict. There would be no fun. like rules, rules, rules. And the irony of what or not even irony. mean, just.

The reality of how this works so well is because we hold boundaries, you and I, about the things that really matter and we're very relaxed about everything else. That's the irony. Like we really are very open, relaxed, free, fun with everything except the things that we have decided this is the boundary. So we're not wound up all super tight and stressed and tense and like, you don't want to spend time with them because man, they're just so intense. Like not at all.

We know exactly what matters to us and basically those things are non-negotiable. And the other side is like, it's not a big deal. Like, okay, on and off, whatever. Yeah, okay, not a big deal. But those things, we don't mess around. Yeah. And that's a great way to live. Love it. You guys, thanks for listening. Thanks for caring. Thank you for this question. Excellent question and kudos to you for all the work you're doing because there's a lot in that email. There's a lot of stuff and she's doing a lot of great stuff, doing it well. way to go. Keep it up.

Keep that up, keep going, keep plugging. And I know it's tricky, it's tough, you're gonna get more tactful, all of you, at communication and holding boundaries of understanding yourself, understanding others, and how to navigate and raise awesome kids in this crazy world we live in. And Rachel and I are so, so stoked. Our new parenting course is coming out soon. We've already recorded a bunch of it. It is pure awesome sauce. So be excited about that, look for it soon.

We love you guys. Lean into your families. Because what happens in your home is the most important thing in life. Love you guys. Reach upward.