#266 You WANT to Need (& Be Needed By) Your Spouse -- How & Why to Be Interdependent Instead of Autonomous

Rachel Denning (00:10.126)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your hosts, Greg and Rachel Denning. We have a very exciting topic today. I'm really excited to talk about this, about being un... Is this even a word? Unautonomous with your spouse? Whoa. I love when you make up new words. I know. Really, the better word is interdependent, I think. So we're going to talk about that. Being interdependent with your spouse instead of independent of your spouse.

because this is extremely important, rarely if ever talked about and nuanced. And absolutely key to creating an extraordinary marriage. Like I don't think you can get to the level of extraordinary unless you fully understand and implement this topic because it's what adds the...

added layers of vulnerability and intimacy and connection and all of those things. Like it happens through this process that we're going to describe. So in fact, you could go so far as to say,

Rachel Denning (01:25.198)
And unless you figure this out and it's, how do you do it? I wouldn't describe it. I'm trying to pick the right word. It's, is it complicated? Is it complex? Is it tricky? I think it can be all those things. There's an art and a science to it, but unless you, unless you figure it out, you can't hit the levels of extraordinary marriage. You just can't do it. There's going to be this, this little barrier and you won't know what it is. And you may not even know that you haven't.

that you're limited or you're held back. You just think, well, this is what it is. And so you ask your friends and neighbors and they're like, well, yeah, that's just how marriage is. And even you ask experts and some of the experts are actually giving it what in our opinion, right? We're going to say ultimately this is our opinion based off experience and results, is wrong advice. They're giving advice. That's half advice. That's one of the beefs we have with a lot of

experts out there, not all experts. Very well known coaches and leaders and teachers. Obviously not all of them. Some of them are great stuff and and you know, I've learned to be able to pick them out. But some of them are literally teaching things that I believe are half truths. And here's why. So we're not so we're not throwing anybody under the bus as because I've been in this I've been deep deep into this industry of personal development, self help and figuring out life.

over 25 years and I mean deep like I've read voraciously been we've spent over 150 ,000 dollars on seminars and webinars and books and trainings and courses like I'm deep deep deep into this and so you can imagine I've I've come across all kinds of everything and many of them have these half ideas because honestly they just haven't figured it out themselves.

They're really, really good at maybe one thing or two things. But then they comment on the other things kind of over in this area. And because I've been studying it for so long and thinking through it, I think, no, yeah, that's only partially accurate. Well, and I think the reason why is because they are teaching things that, again, have a level of truth and produce a level of results that...

Rachel Denning (03:47.278)
can be desirable. And so, and we're gonna, we'll share specifically in this case what it is, but they're sharing things that do get results and that can make things better than perhaps what you already had. So it's a strategy that it works. It can work. That's a great point. It actually works. So you'll take two steps forward. That's fantastic. And it's all good. I'm like, wait a minute. If that's all you ever do, you're never going to get to what you really want with the full potential. Yeah.

and a lot of good people. So again, I'm not these people aren't malicious. They're not trying to harm anybody. But unless they really think through the all the aspects of life and, and I think I would, in my observation is the vast majority of us aren't holistic thinkers. We think, man, I want a result in this area. And we don't deeply contemplate and consider.

the second level, third level, fourth level. Exactly. And the other side effects. So you're deeply focused on business. You start strategizing for business and you come up with a strategy that actually gets business results. But then you don't talk about the negative effect it's having on your kids or your health or your spirituality. Cause you're like, yeah, something's off there and you don't know why and you can't figure it out. And like, and you just think I can't, I can't do it all. So, Hey, this is working. This is working. You should do this. It's working.

Yeah, but it's working only to the detriment of other aspects of your life. Yeah. And for us in our holistic approach, we're constantly counting the costs in all areas of life. So in total transparency, and you guys know this about us, but I'm sure there's new people listening. Our business success has suffered purposely because we put family first.

We don't just say family first. We don't just say marriage first. We mean it. And so our business has been slow growth and is much smaller than it would be otherwise. So if you're listening to us and business is way more important to you than family, we're probably not your people. But if you want to have a phenomenal marriage and family and still have a successful business, because our business is successful.

Rachel Denning (06:05.23)
And I was thinking about this yesterday. We've pretty significantly increased our income every year for at least the last seven years. And our business is growing, but it is nowhere near where it could be. And we know that, and we're being transparent about it because we decided long ago that if the business or the family has to suffer, it's going to be the business. And that also includes the fact that we're homeschooling. So our parenting education is...

a lot more time intensive besides the fact that we're also often traveling the world, which is also very time intensive. Right. So you don't, it takes a lot of time and money to travel to 55 countries, you know, right. And, and educate and do home education and world schooling and, and lean into family. Yeah. It's going to be less time working. And so we have spent less time working in that transparency. I mean, that's one of the reasons our business has not grown because.

Many people would have taken the money that we spent on all of that and reinvested it into business, which we very well could have, to produce bigger business results. But for us, we've always taken the approach of like, we're not waiting. We're not gonna wait until that magical day when everything's perfect and our business is exactly where we want it to be. We are going to live now. We're going to make those sacrifices now because our children's childhood has an expiration date.

And we're fully aware of that. I mean, our third child is turning 19 tomorrow. We've only got four left under the age of 18. Like they grow up and move out. And so you have an expiration date on that. So that is, that's our priority. And when they're gone, we can spend all the time in the world building business. Except we'll be hanging out with our grandkids. So, and I don't, I don't have the exact numbers, but my guess is that.

Just for our family to travel last year, we probably spent a hundred to $150 ,000 just in travel because we value memories. We value experiences. We value the growth and education that comes from that. So instead of reinvesting all that money into building and expanding our business, we put that into building and expanding our family and our family culture, our family legacy.

Rachel Denning (08:25.07)
and who we are as beings. Yes. But I feel like that's a little bit of a tangent. So let's get back to, I'm going to read the question that we received because it's really great. Let's see. So it's specifically related to an episode that we did just, it was just like two episodes ago, I think it was episode number 264. Greg talked about kids being more autonomous.

The title of the episode was something about like, I'm spread too thin. I, how do I do it all? Basically I'm feeling overwhelmed. How do I do all the things? And one of the things we talked about, Greg said kids should be more autonomous, but that you don't want your spouse to be autonomous. And we kind of said that in passing and that was it. We didn't really touch on it. The question is, this is a new concept to me. What I've heard from blank life coach,

is that since you can't control circumstances that you need to... man, red flags are flying. Wait. Except this is the challenge, because there is truth to this. You can't control the circumstances all the time. Silly perfect example, we recently had one of our pigs die. We can't control that. We don't know why it died, right? Like, that's a silly example, but it's some of those things that happen.

I love to understand why it drives me crazy when I can't figure out why something like that happened, but it happens in life. Sometimes things happen. Now I feel that I've gotten to a point where I've become a lot more aware and I can understand why a lot of things happen. Like I can connect the dots for all sorts of things in my life. And so I feel like they're within my control. So this is a statement that's...

partially true, right? And, and many people, if not most people, especially if they've never read James Allen, believe this is 100 % true, you can't control your circumstances. Okay, so I got to share this quote by George Bernard Shaw. He said, people are always blaming their circumstances. I do not believe in circumstance. The people who get on in this life are those who get up and look for the circumstances they want. And if they cannot find them, make them.

Rachel Denning (10:49.678)
Yes. Close. Favorite quotes. That's, that's how we roll. That's how we operate. Like, no, like I'm not going to blame my circumstances. I'm going to sit here. It's a sick form of victimism. So that's what I can say. I'm not going to sit here and play the victim. Right. my circumstances. I had, I had a coaching client said that to me yesterday, but last week I wasn't feeling well and I was stressed and busy. So that's why I was neglecting my wife. I'm like,

and got into a huge fight. Did that just come out of your face? Those are just excuses. Like, welcome to life. But if you keep playing victim to your circumstances, you're always going to be a baby. And you're, yeah. And, but back to this, I do understand the context for this because they're saying you can't always control your circumstances.

which in another way you could say you can't always control your spouse. That's 100 % true. You can't. And so let me finish the statement. Is it true that you can't always control your circumstances? Yes, that's true. Can you have way more control of your circumstances than you currently do? Absolutely. Well, and, but still.

That doesn't mean you can control your, in fact, you and I talked about it this morning and we're gonna do a podcast about it, but you can't control your spouse, you can't control your children, but you can have way more influence and impact in their lives. You can become more respected, more listened to, more revered, more influential. Not in a manipulative, controlling, weird way, in a good positive way. Right, okay, but back to this.

you can't control circumstances or your spouse and that you need to change the way you think about them so that you're okay with your circumstances instead of being discouraged or saddened by them. Again, she's quoting from a coach, a very well -known coach. Well, paraphrasing. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (12:54.894)
Did you want to say something about it? do I ever. Before I continue on. There is there is truth to that, right? But if something happens and you're all bent out of shape about it, especially if it happens between you and your spouse, you're bothered. Then one strategy is to stop and do some inner work and say, what's what's off in me? Well, my mindset, my heart set.

My expectations. There are so many of us who have misaligned expectations and that does create a lot of problems, especially if they're just unfounded or unreasonable or kind of ridiculous. And I hear, I hear him every week. I hear him every week. Well, my wife should do this. My husband should do this. I'm like, and I'll ask people, I'm like, where in the world did you come up with that idea? Where does that belief come from? And, and I, I love to ask.

Is it serving you? How's that strategy working out for you? If I think my wife should have dinner prepared and everything set out nicely every night when I come home or otherwise she doesn't respect me. We've heard things and I've heard that if, if I have that rule in my head, first of all, I don't know where I came up with that crazy rule. It's ridiculous.

But I'm going to be set up for a lot of disappointment, a lot of frustration, and I'm going to be getting after my wife. I'm going to be resentful to her. It's going to be causing fights all because I believe she should have this little dinner set up every day because that's respect. That that strategy doesn't work. It doesn't serve you. It doesn't help you. It's it's actually completely irrelevant. Yeah. But if I have those ideas, well, this is what my wife should do or this is what my husband should do. Yeah. Then you should do some inner work.

Change your thinking and beliefs about that thing. So it's not problematic that That part is true. Yes, but it's also a partial truth. That may be exactly what the coach is Teaching or suggesting, you know that that's what needs to happen You need to instead of getting upset at your spouse because they don't have dinner ready on the table or whatever the thing is that you are altering your

Rachel Denning (15:16.014)
Well, you're saying being okay with your circumstances. Really though, I think it has to be deeper than that for it to actually be effective. Effective. You can't just be like, dinner's not ready. I guess I just have to be okay with that. That's partly true, but there's more to it than that. My spouse never gives me a kiss goodbye. My spouse never calls me and texts me. My spouse doesn't hold my hand. I guess I'll just settle. I'll just learn to be okay with that. Ultimately, that's what you're doing. I'll just settle for less because.

I shouldn't expect my spouse to be respectful to me. I shouldn't expect my spouse to be affectionate to me. And I want to have words of affirmation, but my spouse never says that. So I'll just acquiesce and settle for less. See, it's, it's only, it's half baked. And with this particular coach, I've listened to some of the stuff that's been taught and almost every time for the last several years is I've come across what's being there. I'm like, it's always, this is half baked. It's always half baked. Half true.

It's half true. It's just like, yeah, that's not very thought through. You're like, you're partially right, but that's only part of the story. It won't get down to deep resolution. So it's all, it's all like superficial symptom management, which can again, can be useful. It can have its place. It can get some of the results you want beef with, man. Okay. I'm getting fired up. Here comes the rant again. We see this with parenting quote experts. We see it with marriage quote experts and all these coaches.

They give these little half -baked ideas that you're like, yeah, that will work for a minute. And that'll actually produce a result for a minute. But what you're doing is you're straightening deck chairs on the Titanic. Legitimately, you're straightening deck chairs on Titanic and you cleaned everything up and it looks nice. You're like, yeah, check it out. Whoa, look at this deck. It is gorgeous. Meanwhile, your entire ship, your family ship is sinking. That's the problem. It's like, yeah, the deck looks great. Good job. You mopped, you cleaned up, you organized like that's fantastic.

watch in the next five years, your family's going to completely fall apart. you got their little resort you want, but five years from now, you're going to be in a horrible, horrible divorce. Resort or result. Both. Right. You can get a result, but at what cost? You're not really deeply solving the real issue. Yes.

Rachel Denning (17:36.59)
And again, I'm not trying to be mean here, but a lot of these coaches, they don't know how to get to the deep issues. They don't know how to resolve those things. And I feel like we're kind of jumping ahead here, but that's fine. Ultimately, I think that's the half truth of this. That will produce that is partly true. That is an approach that you need to take, but it's not the whole approach because the other side of it is.

Figuring out why whatever circumstance comes your way why whatever situation in your marriage is causing you to feel in this case discouraged or saddened That's the real inner work. That's the real underlying cause To the problem that needs to be addressed and as if we're gonna talk through Yeah, it is fantastic for you to do that work on your own But it's even more valuable if you do it with your spouse because then it becomes this bonding process that

brings you closer together that helps you have, helps you both have better understanding of each other. That's the real value. And so we can learn to use these types of experiences. And this is something we do and we teach with our clients that instead of just saying, well, you know, just don't be bothered by that or change your expectations, which is partly true. It's also saying why? When you came up with this rule going back to the dinner or something, where is it coming from?

And why, and why is it so significant to you? And what does it mean when you do all of that type of work about it? And then you can articulate it to your spouse and say, this is why I've been feeling this way, because I expected you to do this and I expected it because it means this to me because I saw my parents do this and whatever. I mean, there's usually always something like that involved coming from your childhood. And some of them need to be thrown out. So, well, right. Let's play this. It doesn't discount the fact that it may need to be totally thrown out.

Let's do the dinner one. Like if, if I expect something we've heard of. Yeah. And it's, I think this is relevant. If I expect you to have dinner set out and prepared every, every evening.

Rachel Denning (19:41.998)
At least from my perspective that's silly and irrelevant like it has nothing to do with and I'm not sustainable It's gonna be upset it's gonna be hard for you as my wife every day have this dinner and It's it's kind of ridiculous. It's really irrelevant But so I would say that one like yeah Tessa if you like that great have it as often as you can but toss it out like that that's not serving you and then you'd pick something like well, no like I

Let's say you, for example, as my wife say, you know what? I, I, I need words of affirmation. Well, yeah, hold on one second. Cause I want to address that a little more to emphasize partly what we're talking about because it is possible that you could look at something like that and say, yeah, that's, that's silly. Why did I ever come up with that? I'm going to throw that out. But often though we've seen there's some deep emotional connection to that for the reason why.

the husband in this case, feels deeply that my wife needs to do that because that shows me respect. And that's kind of what we're trying to emphasize here in a way before you move on to the next thing is that if you can't, if you feel like you can't just throw that off and be like, I'm going to stop expecting that or needing that. You have to do the work of why, why it matters. And you still may come to the point of saying, yeah, that I need to just get rid of that expectation because it's not serving either of us.

Nor is it meeting the need. Let's say for example, the need is to be respected and men, men want a need to be respected. They've just picked the vehicle. In this case, dinner is the vehicle of respect. So I'm like, how, how in the world is that a vehicle of respect? It doesn't make any sense to me. It's, it's not actually addressing the real need. The real need is respect. So yeah. So as part of the human needs that all of us have respect is often what men need.

And so, yeah, he's expecting this thing to happen as a sign of respect. When you, if you do the work on that and you go deep, then you can realize, what it is I really want is respect. And actually I am getting that from my wife in different ways, or there's other ways she's trying to, yeah, or I'm not getting it from my wife or whatever. So then you actually get to talk about the issue itself, the underlying issue, which is a lack of feeling of respect or lack of feeling respected.

Rachel Denning (22:09.006)
And then you actually get to make progress. This is where the challenge comes. Instead of fighting about dinner, you're talking about respect. Exactly. And that's where the change actually happens. And that's where I think an approach like this is half true because you're not actually talking about the real underlying problem, which is the reason why you feel the way you do about the thing. If you're feeling discouraged or saddened, you've got to ask why. And it may be...

It's probably that the thing, the circumstance that's occurring, the circumstance that is occurring that you're being told to dismiss is just a symptom of the underlying problem, which is you don't feel cherished or adored or fill in the blank. Like whatever the word is for you, that's the real problem. And so in reality, we have learned and we try to teach our clients this.

We use those things as tools to help us get to the underlying issues so they can be addressed and resolved so that then the problem goes away. If your marriage strategy is consistently based on being okay with your circumstances because you can't change your spouse, that's a horrible way to live. Because what you should be doing, the ideal of course,

is using those circumstances as a tool to get to the underlying cause of the issues because there are issues. That is a sign of an issue. If you are existing in your marriage constantly discouraged or saddened or chronically and you're just trying to be okay with it, you're not actually getting to the underlying problem. And when you get to the underlying problem and solve it, then guess what?

Those things go away. You don't have to go on being okay with your circumstances because you've resolved it. And you figured out together how we can get what we need from each other, how I can show you respect and how you can cherish me. And we move beyond what we call, what Rachel and I call symptom management. You're managing symptoms. And this coach is saying, well, just stop caring about the symptoms. She's not even getting to the deep root cause of the problems. And so if we can get...

Rachel Denning (24:29.294)
pass that to the next level and address the actual issue, then the circumstances, well, are under our control in a very massive way, but many of them become irrelevant. So dinner or no dinner is irrelevant. It's not that I needed dinner, it's that I wanted to feel respected. Exactly. All right, I'm gonna keep reading. Maybe back up a little bit. So the question was, so you feel off.

This one coach says, well just change your mind about it. Yeah. You can't control circumstances that you need to change the way you think about them instead so that you're okay with your circumstances instead of being discouraged or saddened by them. Okay. I have to add something else here too, because at least in my experience, that doesn't work long -term, just like you were saying. You're straightening the deck chairs. But if you really have a hole in your soul, ignoring that hole in your soul, isn't going to make it go away.

Like you're still gonna sink. For me, if I'm discouraged or saddened by something, there's a reason why. It may not be a logical reason. It may not make sense even to me. But if you, and I've thought about this long and hard over the years that we've been married, 23 years. If you say something to me and it hurts me, I have learned to not ignore that and to not just say logically, well, I shouldn't just take it personally or whatever.

I've learned that that's some sort of clue to the discovery of myself. If you say something, and this is very often not said intentionally, you're not trying to hurt me or say something hurtful, but if it hurts, it's because there's something in my soul that needs to be resolved. That's my opportunity there. And generally that will lead to one of two outcomes. You'll go in there deep, you'll find the cause, not the symptom, you'll go in and find the cause.

You'll bring the cause up to the surface, so to speak, and kind of lay it out on the table. And at that point, there's two options. One, you're like, this is unfounded. This is something that happened to me when I was a little girl, and I'm holding onto it. I'm holding onto this old childish programming or this old childish idea. I got offended when I was 11, and I've held onto it. And you're like, well, that's silly. I'm a grown woman, and I'll let it go. So that's option one.

Rachel Denning (26:54.094)
Or you get down there and you're like, no, this is a core need. This is a real thing. And I'm going to go talk to Greg about it. And I'm going to, we're going to work this out together because it has to be addressed because it's a real thing. Because it's a need. It's something that I do need. And if it's constantly neglected, then obviously we're going to be having difficulties in our relationship. Yeah. Now I can in my.

Imagination I can hear some of you saying but I can't I can't talk to my spouse like this I can't have these conversations with my spouse. I can't I can't do this with my spouse to which my response is well, that's unacceptable and It needs to get there. It may take some work. No, in fact, it's going to take some work It'll take a lot of work, but that's unacceptable. If you can't have honest open dialogue with your spouse

there are much, much bigger issues at play in your marriage. Well, and you're saying it's unacceptable in not in a, you're a terrible person, how could you, way. It's in a, it's in, Greg and I love to say. It's not acceptable to have a marriage where you can't talk about important things. Well, and we love to say essentially that you get what you tolerate. And so if you are living in a marriage where you're simply tolerating this,

that, well, we can't talk about those types of things or we can't have these conversations or we can't whatever. Essentially, it really comes down to the fact that you're just tolerating that. You are tolerating being treated that way. You are tolerating having this kind of interaction with your spouse. You're tolerating the way they talk to you or the way they do things. And if you want a better relationship, you have to stop tolerating those things. Now that doesn't mean you have to become a tyrant or some sort of,

Manipulative crazy person, but you can learn to think through, analyze, articulate well what you're thinking, what you're feeling and practice. And it, cause it does take practice saying it to your spouse and then explaining and thinking through it and analyzing it again and re -saying it a different way that hopefully they'll help them help them to understand it better. It's work. Setting firm boundaries.

Rachel Denning (29:22.958)
holding them in a kind way in an emotionally controlled way I just listened this awesome chapter in never split the difference and he said the one thing that absolutely undoes all negotiation is not keeping yourself in control so that was really good I am gonna want to talk about that we're gonna have to talk about that in a minute as far as it goes with spouses because there's a time for that you're right especially for women

Yes, you're right. That works great. That's a great strategy for men. It works perfectly in negotiation settings. Yes, gentlemen, keep cool. And I know, no, wait, that's a good point too, because I think for the husband, especially that is 100 % true.

You definitely should be keeping your cool.

Especially if your wife loses it. Because we're going to talk through that. She's the ocean, I'm the lighthouse. Yes. And as much as people hate to believe that, and I'm saying that because I used to be the woman that hated to believe that, I feel like I'm a very ambitious, business -oriented, like,

career type woman, I used to consider it kind of manly, masculine, you know, and I used to hate that that was a part of me. But the more I've learned to embrace that and understand it, just emotional. Yeah, the emotions, the changing hormones, the storm, the tsunami. Well, I heard another analogy too. That's like the man is the sun and the woman's the moon and she's changing every week. Like she's got a different phase. Right. And the more I've learned to understand that and embrace it,

Rachel Denning (31:12.494)
Like I feel like it just makes everything better for us because I understand it, you understand it, and we just learn to work with it rather than trying to fight it and saying, you just need to be unemotional and you just need to be logical and you just need, you know, and we realize that sometimes I'm more like that and sometimes I'm less like that. Sometimes I'm not like that at all. So it's, it's without being derogatory, it's obvious to say that wives are difficult. Women mean that with the most love. Yeah. Women are difficult.

And they're stormy. And the storms come in, the waves come in. It's constantly changing. And you're like, man, yesterday you said one thing, today you say another. Last week you felt amazing, this week you feel like... The world's falling apart. Like, my goodness. And every third week you question our existence, our marriage, whether our children are going to survive into adulthood. Right? And it's just like...

It's just, it says repeat. And as a man, I'm like, are you kidding me? Control yourself. We talked about this last month and now you're questioning everything again. And it's just, and we can laugh about it now because we've learned to understand it. And I think that's where the real power lies because it gives you this 30 ,000 foot perspective where you see what's going on. And so.

We're able to know what's going on instead of feeling confused and overwhelmed by it and totally frustrated. And you will, you'll laugh and I'll be like, stop laughing. It's not funny. I have to laugh because if I took it, this maybe will be helpful to some, some men out there, even women to understand yourself. If I took everything you said seriously, I would go crazy. Yeah, exactly. We'd both go crazy together. We'd be just loonies.

Because again, every few weeks you question everything. Are we ruining our kids? Why do we travel? Why did we buy this house? What are we doing? And if I took you serious every time, I'd be like, why did we do anything? Why are we doing this again? I thought we resolved this in writing last time. So you would remember.

Rachel Denning (33:39.886)
Like, you go crazy. So when, when you come in and you're feeling that I just, I smile and chuckle a little bit and hold you and reassure you. And, and then a few days later, you're like, that is great. I'm like, yeah, yeah, it is. But it's our awareness of this process that's happening that provides that level of sanity and stability. And we need that. And I think, unfortunately, especially nowadays there's this.

overrun and overwhelm of the womanly influence with all of her changing moods that are wreaking havoc in the lives of men and families. Like it really is a destructive force honestly I believe because you have to have the constancy of the masculinity. You have to. Without it it's like we're all shipwrecked. Men are not being constant right now. They're not being stable.

In part and it's not a hundred percent their fault either. There's a lot of societal influences and they really are in some ways just cowering to their women who feel like they know what's going on because I'm telling you when I'm in those moments, I feel like I see it clear, babe. I know exactly like I'm telling you this is this is real. This is like this is the path. And if I was allowed to make decisions in those moments, my response to you is like, -huh. Yep.

But, but okay, here's what's important. You're right. If you were allowed to make big life decisions in those moments, man, it, we, our lives would be all over the place. Early on, I made big decisions because of your current state. Our lives would be a mess. I have to be solid. I have to be sturdy like the lighthouse. And you come in with these big waves and I just like, -huh. Yep. And wait for the storm to pass.

And I'm just, I'm just sitting there. I don't, I don't say anything. I don't try to fix her. You don't try to talk me out of it. I don't do it. I just, huh. Yep. And then it just, it passes. And this works. Hold on. This works because we're good. Our relationship is good. We're making good decisions. Like, well, and we've also need to do as a man. Okay. Because early on in our marriage and relationship, that definitely happened. Like I would get all upset and.

Rachel Denning (36:00.334)
feel like the world's falling apart and everything and ruining our lives. And then we would, you would take it literally and then we would make decisions about that. And that led to a lot of disaster, right? I mean, really it was disaster. Like a lot of mistakes and things happened because we allowed this natural feminine influence to have too much sway. I mean, we have to have the yin and the yang in these relationships. We have to have the balance of the feminine and the masculine. And I think,

that that is a key part of it when in my darkest moments, we've got you there to be strong. And you have to realize that you're, what's happening and do that. The other key is that, I actually, I just forgot what the other key was, but. Let's go back to the question. We're kind of all over the place. I know, I know, but it's good. I think these are important things that need to be addressed. They're fundamental.

principles and philosophies that when you understand them you can actually address the core issues. So we're kind of going out on some tangents here but I think they're key to understanding the entire picture and question. Okay so let's go back. Basically reviewing, I feel like we're reviewing at multiple times. You're okay with your circumstances instead of being discouraged or saddened by them. So I've in some ways done this with my husband so that I won't be bothered by things he does or doesn't do. Again that's partly...

True, like that's a good thing. I can't constantly be bothered by every little thing you do, but I have learned at least from experience that when our relationship is good, when we have been able to address these deeper underlying issues, I am less bothered by the things you do and don't do. Okay, yes, true.

Having worked with so many couples and so many families across the planet.

Rachel Denning (37:56.558)
I've seen over two decades, the things that are real and relevant and the things that are irrelevant. So she says, I don't want to be bothered by the things he does. If I were coaching her, I'd be like, what things let's make a list of the things. And maybe it's 10 things he does this, this, this, this, this. And, and I'd look at that list. And again, this just comes from experience and, and a broad spectrum of a lot of people.

I'd go through, you know, I'm like, seven of those things are genuinely irrelevant. Like he does it, he doesn't do it, like whatever, which way he puts the toilet paper roll on or how he squeezes the toothpaste. I just switch it. Whether he likes. If someone puts the toilet paper on wrong, wrong, wrong, right? Yeah, because it's your way is the right way. Even in a public bathroom, I will switch it around and put it on the right way. Right. But not get bothered about it. But I don't get bothered about it. Like I'm going to slip this and go and said it. Some people like storm like. I go out and I'm like.

I told him. Why did you put the toilet paper on the wrong way? Well, and this is this is funny. This is real because I remember when we were newlyweds the first time we lived together. I thought you put the knives in the knife block the wrong way. And I remember being bothered by it like, instead of focusing on the fact that you actually cleaned up the kitchen and put the things away, I thought he put the knives in the wrong way. What is this? Right.

And so, and that's what happens. Right. And so you would go through this list and seven out of 10 would be irrelevant. Like it's a knife block. Like who cares? So you're focusing on the wrong thing. Like let it go. Who, who gives a crap? Like he actually cleaned up. He made an effort, focus on the fact that he made an effort, not that he put the knives in wrong and then remind him gently, like without any resentment or just turn them around yourself or really care, whatever. But then in the same list of things like, I should just change my mindset. There's going to be three things. And then I'm like, Ooh, no.

That's relevant. You shouldn't change your mindset. He should change his behavior. And so it's different. There's gonna be a couple of those things that bother you that need to be changed. It's not one of those things where like, yeah, you're right. You should change your mindset. It's like, no, he needs to change what he's doing. That is unacceptable. That is no way to operate as a man, as a husband, as a father, as a provider, as a protector. No, unacceptable.

Rachel Denning (40:16.046)
That has to change. But the problem with this type of approach is if you're constantly doing that and saying, I'm just not going to be bothered by it. I just need to be okay with it. Then that never gets addressed. Right. The behavior that he, and this is the point of marriage. Marriage is a laboratory for personal growth. And if you never come to your spouse and say, do you know what? It's not okay that you do this. It's not okay that you talk to me like this or that you treat the kids like that, or that you never fill in the blank.

then he never has that chance or she never has that chance to make the changes and to make the improvements. And yeah, it's not gonna be comfortable or fun to have that conversation, but it has to happen. That is the point of marriage. So if, let's say you're irritated that your husband just comes home and he's just disengaged. He comes home, he gets on his phone, he goes watch his TV, he gets on, it's like playing video games.

He just comes home and starts acting like a little boy and you're like, what's going on? He's like, well, I'm tired and stressed. I worked all day. Okay. Leave me alone. And, and you, those might be one of these issues where you're like, I just need to change my expectations and just, I need to change my idea that he needs to come home and engage with us. Cause he needs to come home and unwind. No, on that one, I'm a hard no. You need to come home and be a man. Stop acting like a little baby. Cause guess what? The wife's tired and stressed too.

She's been at home with the kids. How could she be tired and stressed? She's just been at home all day, chitty -chatting with her friends. The house should be cleaner. She had eight hours. What's she been doing? Exactly. And there may be some of that. There are wives that they send the kids off to school and they sit at home all day and do little or nothing. And then think they're tired and stressed. And like, I'm so tired and stressed. I'm going to wait until my husband gets home so he can help me clean up because I've had a...

day and you're like, well, what'd you do? Nothing. You literally did nothing. Give me a break. And so that's, I mean, this stuff is specific. It's, what's, what's the word? It's relative. And so you have to figure it out and it takes, it takes some understanding to, to get to the list. It'd be really fun if, if so, you listeners send in a list here. Okay. We're making a request, making a request, send over a list.

Rachel Denning (42:38.094)
of the things that bother you. And I would love this. Like if we get, I don't know, if we get like a hundred things from you guys, it won't even be a hundred because there's going to be so many repeats that we'll see patterns in common denominators, but I would love for you. So a listener request here, send over the things to us and we'll keep it anonymous, but send over the things. I think I can attach a poll to the episode. That'd be awesome. The, the bother you about your spouse and Rachel, I will go through and just share our opinion on.

which things are relevant and which things are irrelevant. And, and see if listener, see if you can identify why it bothered you. And it might be a preference. It might be something you picked up from your mom or dad, or it might be like this deep fundamental need or something's off. Like some, in some recent coaching sessions, there was, there was some name calling, some insulting in my book, unacceptable.

There should be absolutely no name calling and insulting in a marriage, period. I don't care how irritated you are. I don't care how angry you are. No way. There's no way in the world I'm calling Rachel a stupid, crazy B, right? Ever. Ever. No, this is unacceptable. It's absolutely unacceptable. So there are things like, well, she's rude to me or...

She keeps saying this to me or doing that. Like some of those things matter a lot. And I would love to talk about the things that matter and the things that don't. Absolutely. Okay. Let's continue though. so I won't be bothered by the things he does or doesn't do. I'm wondering now if that was a mistake to just.

be okay with the circumstances. So she's already thinking through it, realizing, Hey, that was only half true. Well, and I think in part because of just your comment about not being autonomous from your spouse. I'm wondering now, sorry, I just don't want to be one of those wives. Here's the caveat. I don't want to be one of those wives that's constantly getting after my husband and being critical of him because I know that criticism from a spouse is hard and can hurt.

Rachel Denning (44:54.926)
That's true. And that, I think that ties into what you're saying. Seven out of 10 things may be irrelevant and are not worth mentioning. So in that case, it's good to follow that kind of strategy. If you really care about the toilet paper roll or the knife block, just do it yourself without being resentful. Don't feel like - It'll take you a whole two seconds. Yeah, it's amazing. And you don't have to be resentful that you had to do it. You're doing it because you care. Right. And he's not because he doesn't. He doesn't care.

And that's okay. He doesn't have to care about everything you care about. One of the biggest mistakes or errors in judgment I think I see from moms and wives is this whole thing that they go on about complaining the fact that they're the only ones that do certain things. And I'm like, you're the only one because you're the only one who cares. And they honestly feel like everyone in their family should care as much as they do about the things they care about.

that they should care about how the house gets cleaned up and when it gets cleaned up and what exactly it should look like and how exactly it should be done. And they complain because their spouse and children don't do it that way. And they think it's because they have a problem rather than it's the fact that no, you care.

You care about it being done that certain way and in a certain time and a certain whatever. And the reason you care is because that's your role. Right. That matters to you. And people would obviously take that very insulting of like, how rude. That's a traditional woman's role. She's supposed to do it. No, you care about it. Your husband cares about things you don't care about and that you never think about. Like you think about things that I never even think about, like changing the oil or this or that or the other. It never crosses my mind.

We need this different thing. And if I were getting bent out of shape, like, I can't believe why I can't believe you didn't how important this is. Why didn't you fill up the tires? Why didn't you change the oil? I would be like, I didn't think about it. Why are you getting mad at me? I didn't know, you know, and yet that's happening all the time with wives and moms with their children and spouses. I'm like, you, you care. So one, do it yourself or two, ask them to do it the way you want.

Rachel Denning (47:09.102)
somebody or hire someone else to do it. But they often husbands and children are willing to do what you ask when you ask them nicely and to do it the way you ask if you ask them nicely but don't get mad at them because they don't think of it on their own or care about it as much or care about it as much as view like the toilet paper roll or whatever. That's my rant because I'm tired of seeing it. But it's so true.

Yeah. And the reason you care is because you have your rules and you're in this role. And guess what? Your daughters, when they become moms, they're going to care too. But when they're 11, they care about being 11. Exactly. So let up on it. Yeah. It's such a great point. Okay. Anyways, so.

Partly true. You don't need to be critical about him, about everything. I don't need to be getting after you about the knives and the toy favor and the toothpaste and whatever. So long -blanks. Well, I wanted to add a little bit to this. So on one side, it's a two -sided coin. On one side, yes, being critical of your husband won't be helpful. Or your wife, either way. Being critical won't be helpful. Because it can be hurtful. But. But. There are a few times when some constructive criticism or at least some firm boundaries.

And some feedback do need to be put in place. There are times when you got to put your foot down, not on top of your spouse's foot, but you got to put your foot down and say, Hey, no more of that. We're not doing that anymore. You, Nope. You cannot come home and just be absolutely absent. You cannot come home and ignore your kids or mistreat your kids. Unacceptable. We're not doing that. If, if you, and this, this was a, an example of a couple I was working with the.

the wife would get angry and really mistreat the kiddos. And so the husband finally was like, I gotta put my foot down. I'm gonna put a boundary here and say, sorry, you're not allowed to treat our children that way. And man, that was hard. my goodness, that was hard. But it changed the dynamics and it had to happen. And I found at least that that works best.

Rachel Denning (49:22.03)
That is one of the situations where it needs to be done in control. You can't put your foot down about something screaming and yelling like a crazy person. Or even in the moment. Yeah. Yeah. It often is better if it's not in the moment either. It's better if you wait to another time and you have, and it can be passionate. It can be strong. You can have strong feelings, but they need to be controlled feelings and you need to be able to articulate firmly and clearly like,

why it's unacceptable, you know? And often they know in something like that, but it's better done with that approach rather than just all out crazy screaming and yelling of like, this is unacceptable, no more, you know? That doesn't work quite as well. So to give some of you that kind of a model, let's say Rachel was just way overreacting with the kids. I would wait a day or two until things are calm, things are good, we might go on a date.

and then I would say, hey babe, I noticed when you got angry, you said this thing or you did this thing.

It was too much. Or I might even ask, do you feel like you handled that well? And most of the time, most people were cognizant of like, no, I didn't handle that well. And I feel bad. I wish I hadn't. And I say, I'm glad because that can't happen ever again, babe. That's, that's just not how we're going to treat our children. How can I help? Right? There's a, there's a great outlet. How can I help?

And, and my guess, you know, if Rachel and I were doing this dialogue, she would be like, well, when I get so angry and they won't listen to me, I just lose it. I'll be perfect. If, if it gets to that point, let me help. And so instead of you going too far, come get me and I'll come in and, and let me help you not go too far. And so we'd come through strategies so that you get better at controlling yourself and you feel like you have help. Most of the time we, we overreact, we go crazy when we feel.

Rachel Denning (51:30.126)
helpless or hopeless like, like I keep trying stuff. I keep doing, they're not listening. They're not pushing me. I'm not getting, and then we explode. So I would walk through that, but I would put a firm boundary and, and, and, you know, I'd do it with love, but I'd be Rachel, babe, you can't ever do that again to our children. I'm dead serious. That doesn't happen ever again.

And it's done with so much love, but firmness, like she knows I'm dead serious. Like I'll help you, I'll do anything, but you're not doing that anymore. Cause there has to be some hard lines. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. I'm gonna keep going here. I'd rather my husband feel like I'm his cheerleader. Yes. Agreed. We want that, but we also have to realize there are real issues in.

marriage and if we just continue to be the cheerleader without ever bringing up the issues and addressing them, it's the sinking Titanic again. It doesn't go away. They're there. I want you to wear a cute skirt and cheer me on and just be standing there pretty while I'm doing cool things on the field of life and you're just... You never want me to be like Medusa. I don't want you to walk over there and be like, you suck at this and I'm not cheering you on. I'm calling you out.

Cause you're acting like a little boy and I don't want to be married to a little boy. So shape up or else. I don't ever want my wife to do that, but guess what? I need her to do that. And back to the yin and yang thing, it does have to be measured because if I literally did that about everything. Yeah. If you weren't my cheerleader and you were just my nagger, eventually I would ditch you. Yeah. Or you would check out mentally and emotionally. Which is ditching you. Yeah.

And we just saw the statistic today 35 to 60 percent of marriages will experience an affair And part of that is because I think it's directly connected to this kind of stuff autonomy. Yeah This disconnection of like I don't like what my spouse is doing. I guess i'll just Be okay with it. The more I pull away the more there's this lady at work That's really nice to me and she's always cheerleading

Rachel Denning (53:50.382)
And whenever I go home, my wife just nags. So I'm going to stay at work a little longer. And man, that girl, she's always so nice to me. She never nags me. And that's how you get a guy in real trouble. Or a girl. Yeah, vice versa. It goes the other way. He never listens to me. I need someone to talk to. I'll just talk to my friend. This guy over at the store, he just always listens. He's so nice. He's just willing to listen to me all the time. My husband just won't listen. He doesn't understand.

Well, because, and I would be interested in the statistics because some affairs are not physical affairs, they're purely emotional affairs where you are sharing, and this is where I want to get into the autonomy thing. You're sharing information with other people that you should be sharing with your spouse. And in a way that's kind of what we're talking about when we're talking about your spouse shouldn't be autonomous. You want to need each other. And I know that that sounds really terrifying. And

for me and some of my more emotional phases, still that's terrifying to me. The fact that I need Greg so much because we have created the type of relationship where we're each other's best friends, biggest supporters, cheerleaders, like we're everything to each other. And that's very scary and vulnerable. Why? Not for me. I love this. And again, don't misunderstand, we are not needy people.

There's a big difference. If I'm, if I'm needy and clingy and, and I can't do things and I'm just like, you got to be here and I can't. And I'm just super incompetent and weak and I'm the child wife. that's from, I know, but I have a quote cause it's from, Oliver. Nope. David Copperfield. so good. The child wife Dickens was onto something there. So if I'm being that, that's, that's totally not what we're talking about.

but this deep interdependence, I need you. Yeah, so we're very keen. I love that I need you, but for you it is scary. Why? Walk through that. Well, first I just want to say, so yeah, we are very independent people. So we're working on ourselves. We're doing our own work. We're strong. We're capable. It might be more you than me. I think about you every 12 seconds. I just can't wait till you come back. When you go away and sit in a...

Rachel Denning (56:09.422)
fetal position in the corner. It sounds like you're very needy, Greg. Wait a minute. Maybe I have a problem. Yeah, it is very interesting to me. And I would say this isn't something I feel all the time. I mean, yeah, most of the time it's a wonderful thing. I need you. I want to be near you. I want to talk to you about things. But as we talked about the phases of women and the

hormonal cycles and all that there are times when I feel I Guess okay Maybe this is a part of it as far as women go and this is one of the deep underlying needs because I feel Except I think that this is probably true for men too that one of the worst things that could ever happen to me Is if at my very worst you rejected me? If that might you know when I'm ugly crying if you just said

something horrible to me or just didn't want to be near me or around me. It's like you're rejecting the worst of me. And so you're rejecting me. And that's, that's something that's very frightening and terrifying probably to all people. But I think especially it's the fear of, of not being wanted anymore. My wife doesn't want me. She's not attracted to me. She doesn't like me. She doesn't need me. She's going to be interested in somebody else. Like, yeah, or even not even.

Okay, somebody else or she's just into herself or into her girlfriends or into the kids. She's so into the kids and being a mom that she forgot she's married. Well, and I guess that that's why for me I choose the word need because if I don't need you, if I don't need to talk to you and I don't need you to, and this is what's happening with too many women today because of the feminist movement in part, like I don't need a man. I don't need you to, which is still so stupid to me because most women.

Some of these women that are saying this don't realize that men basically build and run society. Like they're doing all the dirty jobs behind the scenes that keep society functioning. And yet they're like, I don't need a man. Duh. Like how do you have internet and electricity? It's men doing it. And sewage. And sewage, exactly. What happens when you flush your toilet? You think that's a bunch of women taking care of that? No, it's not. Exactly. So we need men, but.

Rachel Denning (58:24.558)
If personally in our relationship, if I don't need to talk to you, because I can talk to my girlfriends or I could talk to my mom or I could talk to someone else, a therapist, and I don't need you to provide for me because maybe I have my own career and my own income, and I don't need you to fix my car because I'll just take it to the mechanic, and I don't need you to take care of the kids because really you don't do a great job, not as good as I do or the babysitter, I don't need you. And if I don't need you, then what's your point? Why are you married to me? Right.

There's literally no point for you. And if I don't need sex, like you need sex, and I can go without it, I really don't need you. That's what we're talking about. You don't want to be in that kind of relationship. You don't want to be so autonomous that you don't need your spouse. If there's not things that your spouse can do for you that no one else can, why are you married to them? Why? Like I'm legit asking. You might as well just...

have a roommate or friends or whatever. Which for many people is the case. Yeah, you don't need your spouse. And it's the same is true on the other side. And that's why I made that comment. We don't want our husbands to be autonomous either. And a lot of wives will push their husbands away. Especially sexually. Like you're always bugging me for sex. You're always just, just go away. We've literally had people tell us that they don't mind that their husband looks porn because then they're not interested in sex as much.

You're literally unbelievable like why why would you do that to your relationship? Don't you realize he's just distancing himself from you mentally and emotionally not just sexually because of that Mentally and emotionally he's checking out because and he's becoming more autonomous and yeah, he's becoming more autonomous He doesn't need you and you don't need him So why be married? That's a terrible relationship?

And some people would answer that it's like well, it's just you know logistics It's just functional And you know and I fully realize that there are relationships out there and they work and that's great But that's not what this podcast is about. We're not talking about those types of relationships It's not anything we want and I think most of you listening want an extraordinary marriage And we're talking about how to create an extraordinary marriage not a functional one. Yeah, so you do need to need each other I had a wife tell me yesterday

Rachel Denning (01:00:51.182)
The end.

She has a hard time just really venting to her husband because he gets upset that she's just complaining. And it was a, it was a classic man, woman scenario where when a woman vents and she used the word vomit, she's like, I'm just going to vomit all over him emotionally. And I thought, yeah, at least from my perspective, I think most women need.

vomiting outlet. At least once in a while. Yeah, less once in a while. And in those moments, to a man it really sounds like complaining. To a woman, it's more just articulating what's on your mind. And I know, yeah, and I know that for many men they take it personally and it's, they take it as though you're failing me. You're not a very good person because you complain a lot or...

Well, I'm doing here's what men do. I'm doing the best I can. And you just sit here and complain. It's like, no, shut your mouth and just let her get it out. All she's doing is just telling you every little worry or frustration that's come across her mind. She's not complaining. She's just articulating out loud. Everything has come through her mind a lot. And there's a lot. She'll worry about a lot of things. She's not complaining. She's venting. She gets it all out. And if you get all bothered by it or upset, it is worthless. If you just listen and say, okay, mm hmm.

Yep. And it gets all, she feels better. Yeah. You don't, you literally don't do anything. Just listen. Yeah. And I found for me, for us that early on I would do that. I would, I would vomit. Well, and here's, here's the irony. So into personal development and like, so stoic.

Rachel Denning (01:02:42.062)
It shouldn't be complainers. Complaining is a negative attribute. This is a fault that you need to fix. Exactly. Because I was thinking like a man. Yeah, right. Which makes sense. Now here's the irony. Because men do that, I know this was true for me, I would limit my quote unquote complaining to you. But what I found that actually happened is it would build up and then it would become an

unavoidable vomiting session, like literally uncontrollable, and it would be so much worse for both of us than if I learned to just share my little irritations as they came up along the way. And you had to tell me like, hey, I'm just articulating what's on my head. Yeah. And it took a while for me to like get it because I just assumed your brain worked like my brain. Right. But you had to tell me, no, I just I just want to tell you about it.

It's like, I need to just get it out. I just need to get it. I just need to share. And then once that happens, I feel so much better. In fact, I have clearer thinking. I can come up with solutions or I'm open to brainstorming solutions with you or just letting you take care of something. But without understanding that process, it does, it creates a lot of problems because you think I'm complaining and I'm trying not to complain because complaining is bad. You're right. I shouldn't be complaining. But then if I didn't do that complaining, quote unquote,

then it would bottle up, it would pile up, and then I would explode in a way that was way worse than if I just, if we have that type of open relationship where I can just share with you as it goes along, and then everything is like smoother, easier. It's actually better and so much more enjoyable for both of us because we're understanding what's going on in that whole process. And the iconic example was,

We'd be going to bed at night and I'm thinking, ooh, we're going to make love. And three hours later, she's still ugly crying. It's not three hours later. it was. in the worst, in the worst scenarios. Yeah, in the worst case scenarios. Okay, yeah, you're right. Early on, it build up. Yeah. And, and, and, and, hey, babe, let's make love. And you're like, no, I'm tired. We don't have time. I just want to go to bed. And literally three hours later, she's still ugly crying and venting. And I was like, We could have made love three times. We could have made love like 15 minutes, man. Gosh. And here we are. You're still ugly crying.

Rachel Denning (01:05:03.534)
You think we don't have time for that? I wasn't listening along the way. Yeah. No, that is, that's true. And I'm glad that you, you remember those scenarios. I remember those ones. Cause I don't remember them. Unforgettable. But you're right. That's the kind of stuff that would happen because I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't know when I hadn't learned how to share the small irritations along the way in a way that I didn't know what you were doing. Right. And being able to share with you what was happening that then.

the situations that would come out were big, huge. It was a huge deal. And it was so emotionally draining. And like time consuming. And it was like, I don't have time for this. You know, both of us would feel like, I remember even feeling like that. I don't have time for this, but it's like I would be driven to get it all out. And it was just so much more painful and worse and tiring. So if we can learn how to be.

Interdependent with each other and recognize that hey, I'm not I'm not trying to complain I'm I'm just venting a little bit. I'm just sharing some of these thoughts and irritations and worries I'm worried about this. I'm worried about world war three. I'm worried about whatever whatever the things are That's to me my way of needing you like that for that's a huge part for me. That's why I need you because

I don't have anyone else like that in my life. Intentionally, like we've created it that way, that you are that for me. Right. Because I want you to need me that way. Right. Because that's that deep emotional connection. Yeah, exactly. And that trust and that safety and security. Because as well intentioned as people are, if you're venting to them all the time, they're not going to understand and

process and that's an important concept to bring up and explain for a minute sorry to interrupt you on that because Yeah, one of the reasons why I don't go to my mother or I don't go to a friend or whatever is because they don't have the full That's another advantage too. They don't have the full context of the whole situation So I'm only sharing one piece that I'm likely complaining about it. At least that's what it sounds like and to them they're like, my gosh, this is you know the

Rachel Denning (01:07:26.606)
They can misunderstand it, misconstrued it. They may not have the, what I need to solve it. And so in, especially in that case, it literally does just become complaining. And I think that's an advantage when you develop a relationship like this, that we learn to understand I'm not complaining where as if I was saying it to someone else, it would be complaining. You're processing out loud and I'm processing out loud.

instead of complaining, but you only know that because of the foundation that we have laid together. So it's a huge advantage, I think, and it actually helps me to become a person that doesn't complain. Then when I'm with my mom, and this is totally true, I can be with my mom or friends or whatever. I don't complain at all about my life or about my husband or my kids, because I don't have a need to complain about them. I don't have a need to tell them anything except the truth, which is everything's awesome and amazing and wonderful.

Because any of my little complaints along the way, you have helped me to resolve. To me, that's a much healthier way of living, honestly, because someone said once, I don't remember, but you shouldn't complain to anyone who can't actually help you with your problems.

And by helping, meaning how I help you is mostly I listen. Yeah. And then if there's some change, I need to change. I do it. I take care of it. Or actually resolving. Like, you know, one of the examples was if you, if you have an illness, you go to the doctor and you complain to them because they can help you. Right. Well, some doctors, that's a whole nother podcast. you know, and, and I know a lot of people, especially nowadays, they have therapists and they talk to therapists and.

that can be beneficial, but in a way... But then all you're doing is just venting to a therapist and usually therapists, they don't have any tools to help you either. Right, that is the problem. I mean, and we're not the only ones that think this, but most counselors and therapists today are literally causing divorces. They are contributing to, causing and contributing to divorce because they're not sharing strategies that actually work. Cause the more you go and complain to someone else about your spouse,

Rachel Denning (01:09:33.261)
It's like cathartic. The more you're going to hate your spouse, you're not fixing the problem. So that's a disadvantage to this autonomy as well because you're not using the irritations and the frustrations that come up as a chance for growth and healing and deeper connection with your spouse. They actually become more of a wedge in your relationship because you're going to someone else about it.

Okay, which fits perfectly with what we're talking about. You don't want your shots to be autonomous. You don't want them going to other people Right. Yeah, that's not helpful. So ultimately yeah, I think that's the takeaway. I think we've read most of it. I know for myself when people see the good in me I'm encouraged to do better and when people are critical of me, it can feel discouraging true then that's true But we do have to remember that there is a place for that I know I felt discouraged times when you've told me things of like that's not enough. That's not good enough

But it's rare because you're not pointing out about every little thing. That's you're so close to perfect. Pretty hard. Yeah, that's I know that's not true, but that that is the point. We have to be careful and not criticize about everything. The knives and the the toilet paper and the all the little things. So if if in an ideal situation, we could only be constructively critical about.

the things that actually matter, the really important things, then the percentages would be small and it would work. Again, I think it's worth pointing out that many of us getting to marriage, never realizing that that's one of the main purposes of a marriage. I didn't marry you because I wanted you to correct me and call me out and refine me. That's not why I married you. I married you because you're hot. I'm like, I don't want to marry this girl.

I thought it was my brains, baby. That's true. And because you were absolutely brilliant, which came out in our very first date. I was like, that's hot.

Rachel Denning (01:11:42.302)
But one of the most important, most beautiful and most beneficial parts of marriage is the fact that you, as my spouse, who know me better than anybody else, one of your roles is to call me out. To correct me. To point out the things that I don't do well. That's your job. And we think, my spouse shouldn't say that's none of her business. She's minor in business. And we think it's somebody else's job. No way. It's your job.

Mm -hmm, and you I should want that you're the one person my life I want to see that weakness and point it out and tell me enough's enough. You're done. Yeah, and a hard line that That's what your spouse is for people Right now if it's on every last little thing. I get so bad but if in my head I Change I adopt a new belief. So here's here for those of you listening. I'm gonna I'm gonna throw this out

Here's a belief that I would like you to adopt. One of the most important roles of your spouse is to call you out, to correct you, to offer you coaching of how you could be better. And if we'll adopt that belief and embrace it, it's awesome. And I realized, she's pointing out something that I knew about myself and it's irritating that she's doing it, but she's right. And I need to change. Well, and then within that same context that.

that is one of our jobs to also do to our spouse. So we have to pay attention. Everything she's talking about here is great. We do need to take that into consideration, not be too critical, not be too condemning. But we have to identify the things that are important and at least be able to have that conversation with our spouse to say, that's one of those things. Like I've got to hold up a mirror here and say, you shouldn't be doing that.

And so that's part of the hard work. That's part of the inner dependence that we have to be that for each other and be able and willing to have the conversations that can create those changes. Boo yah! And then marriage can be so stupid magical. It really is. And I think maybe that's what we need to end on here is because as we're talking through all of this, I know because I've been there.

Rachel Denning (01:14:10.606)
It can feel terrifying. You can feel overwhelming. It can feel frightening. I mean, I've, I remember being frightened many times of having those hard conversations with you, but if you do it, it actually makes marriage that much better because as we talked about before, then instead of you chronically constantly just putting up with things or being okay with the circumstances or you actually have that deep.

foundational relationship that kind of remove a lot of those irritations and annoyances and, and you become closer and you understand each other better and you push each other's buttons way less and not intentionally. So good. And it's, it's just good. Yeah. So amazing. It's extraordinary. Yep. Okay. And we have tons of resources about marriage because we're so passionate about this. We, we,

Go deep dive into it in Rachel's 28 day challenge. We have lots of episodes about it. Into the extraordinary marriage course. We have 30 day marriage challenge. We have a nine day marriage challenge. I do a deep course in the Be The Man Masterclass and we talk about in the tribe all the time. There's tons of resources and it's worth every investment to make your marriage extraordinary. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. Reach out.

Rachel Denning (01:15:41.454)
you