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Rachel Denning (00:11.886)
Hey everybody, good morning. Welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are your host, Greg and Rachel Denning. Still bringing it to you from Turkey. We actually, I wasn't even gonna say anything. Is it Turkey or Turkey? Turkey? I don't know.

I don't speak Turkish. And we've had many wonderful experiences recently of trying to do charades with people who don't speak English and we don't speak Turkish. But we legitimately had a bucket list weekend. It was very serendipitous. Meaning we went out to...

in search of something good and found something even better. It was incredible. It was amazing. Just all of us, the whole family was just like blown away. First of all, this entire country is like a museum. In fact, we saw t -shirts and magnets that said Turkey, Turkey, the world's largest museum. Yeah, it's unbelievable. And there's just thousands and thousands of years of history here. Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman.

like tons and tons of history. It's incredible. And there's, so we went looking for this, the ancient city of Ephesus, where, you know, where Paul wrote his epistles to the Ephesians.

He actually was there for about three years and then I learned that John, St. John was there as well. But then we learned that Cleopatra and Mark Anthony were there and it was unbelievable. And then we went to the city of Aphrodisius, which has the Temple of Aphrodite. Then we went to the city of Heropolis, which is called the Sacred City. It was the richest city in Asia Minor in some period of time. Just incredible. And they have hot springs, natural hot springs.

Rachel Denning (02:06.992)
Springs there in this white mountain. And they had a temple dedicated to Pluto or Hades depending on which language and because of the hot springs coming out of the ground they thought it was from the River Styx and and then we got to do a hot air balloon ride above that city. Wow. That was incredible. So first time for our whole family to get in a hot air balloon together. It was fantastic. Yeah. Oh man that was pretty magical. Then we took this super

long cable car all the way to the top of this mountain and when we got up there, Randy, it was just the fog rolled in and it was cold and we just cuddled up by the fire. The whole family in this little cabin, little rustic cabin. No internet. And no internet, which is great. And just had an awesome experience. Yeah, it was amazing. We had a great weekend. And then really tough, hard.

workout this morning with the kids, everybody, it was awesome. So just life is absolutely fantastic. So today we wanted to talk about something that comes up all the time with individual coaching, with group coaching, with people we're talking about, with things we hear online or see in chats or whatever. And it's just this one element.

Well, it... Sorry, I'm going to interrupt a little. Obviously, this is something that we've had to figure out in our own marriage, which has helped to make it as wonderful as it is. And we truly have like an incredible marriage. This has been a key element.

and it's coming up now because specifically, yeah, you have been working with clients. It just keeps coming up again and again. And they're talking about these problems they're having with their spouse. And as this is it, okay, first of all, this is a challenge that happens in marriage. It's also a challenge that happens in all communication in general. Yes, yes, yes. Well, what I'm about to explain is when you use a word and it means something to you, you're like, this word means this. But to the other person, it means,

Rachel Denning (04:22.703)
something different. And in some ways I think that's what's happened with some of your coaching clients because you'll say, you need to listen to your wife, which means in your head, because of our experiences in our own marriage, it means this. But to them,

It obviously doesn't mean the same thing because they quote unquote do it, but they're not getting the results that it should be producing if you're doing it in the right way. Because listening is a very... Complex? Yes, it's super complex. It's actually really active, but...

It's so subtle it seems passive. But if you are at all passive as a listener, you're not listening. And there's a lot to it. And I guess I want to reemphasize just like you were saying, this will change the quality and outcome of your relationships. Not only your marriage, but I mean this will change relationships in the workplace. This will change work in church and in the community. If you learn how to listen, truly deeply listen well, and I would...

Obviously listening is a skill that needs to be learned in practice. And I would say it's different.

I would say it's different for men and women. You can become just a world class listener. I think we should, but there's something unique about listening to women and then obviously what we're going to talk about today is listening to your wife, which is a whole another level. You're going to really listen to your wife differently and better and deeper and in a different way than you would to any other person and any other woman for that matter. Right. And I think that's especially what we're going to expand on in this episode because there's plenty of books on listening and

Rachel Denning (06:07.311)
communication and all and that work great in the workplace or teams or a church but what we want to expand on here is the specific way of listening that may require lots of different things that you have to do with your wife especially

in challenging times, especially if she is very emotionally distraught, especially if she's very overwhelmed, and even more especially if all of those things have been stacking for years. We've often talked about emotional stacking, where if you have emotions and they go unresolved, well, they never go away, they just build on top of each other. And so if you have a wife that's had a lot of emotional stacking now,

Emotional stacking happens with men too, but it's generally handled in different ways. I know you love to use exercise as an emotional outlet, you love to use sex as an emotional outlet, like you have a lot of other outlets where for me, and for a lot of women, again, we know that this is a generalization, but it's true usually 80 % of the time or more, I need to verbally speak and talk through my emotions.

in order to process them and to release them. Now, when you have a great marriage and the man, the husband understands this process, doing this with your husband is one of the best places to do it. Because you go to someone you love, you trust, and when they learn how to listen, then they can support you instead of what often happens we see is that the men, they get offended, they get upset, they feel that you're complaining, they feel that, you know, we're going to go all through these things.

totally misunderstood, misinterpreted. So then it actually becomes a source of contention in your marriage instead of a way of connecting because now that we've learned to do this the right way, this processing, some people might call it venting, they might call it complaining, they might call it lots of different things, there's lots of different words that could be used for it, it now becomes a way for us to connect even deeper because we're able to share...

Rachel Denning (08:26.093)
deep emotional thoughts and feelings and work through it together and find solutions together and or just to be heard, right? So it sounds very complex, I'm sure. And you might think, oh, so much work. But I really truly think the work is worth it. Like it really is worth it. And when you figure it out, which we want to walk through how to do that today.

I think it becomes magical and I think it becomes part of, we've often talked about the circle of intimacy, right? Like that sex is a linchpin, but sex and intimacy includes the physical side of it, but it also includes this emotional side of it. And it includes the woman being able to open up and talk to her man in a very deep way. And most importantly, to feel understood and excited.

accepted by him Despite all of the potential ugliness because ultimately that's kind of what she's afraid of She's afraid that if she opens up and shows her innermost feelings fears concerns worries He won't be able to handle it. He won't admire her still he won't love her still and so he'll be bothered or disgusted or disapprove of her right and so if that's there She can't fully open up, but when it is there and she feels

understood and accepted and adored and loved still then that opens the door for even deeper intimacy physically because she feels truly whole and accepted right? And where this is missing a lot and I feel like I want to like shout a warning here is that...

If it's not happening, if this kind of deep dialogue and real listening isn't happening between spouses, women will often turn to other outlets.

Rachel Denning (10:27.053)
Other other women they get friends or their mothers sisters whatever Which is and you can be fine. You have some well, yes It can be okay to have some of that and and some men are probably like good good good Go talk to your mom. Yeah, go call you go out with your girlfriends. Go talk. I don't have time for this. Whatever. I it's not it's okay What you're doing is turning away this fountain of intimacy and connection

And you're saying, well go over here and really just feel heard and validated and understand. And when you get it all out, come back and let's connect. And you're like, dude, you're missing it. Now, we've got to throw this out here. It's not always pleasant. In fact, it's very often uncomfortable and…

Sometimes ugly, the ugly crying. Sometimes ugly, like you feel like it sometimes can take a lot of time especially if it hasn't been happening and there's a lot that needs to come out. Especially at first. There's going to be some time. Right. And what's interesting and difficult. Sometimes you feel like it's just a complete waste of time. Yes. There's so many other things we could be doing. Why are we doing this? Why are we having this conversation? Especially if you're driven and ambitious and you want to be productive. You're just like, oh my gosh. Which as a... Come on.

I am a very ambitious, productive woman and I often feel like that sometimes. I'm like, ah, I'm so annoyed that I need to talk to you right now, right? Because I should be doing other things. I want to be doing other things, but I've learned I have to get this out. I have to process it. I have to release it, right? In some ways it's kind of weird. It's like this emotional orgasm, right? I've got to release this so I can focus and get back to work, get back to doing what I am capable of doing.

because I've been able to release this emotion and be heard by you, which just, it just helps everything. It helps me feel better. It helps us connect. It helps us stay connected. It helps you feel whole and centered and peaceful. Exactly. It helps you like get rid of this distraction or turmoil. There's so many metaphors for this. Like if you had just this ache, just

Rachel Denning (12:49.519)
Let's say you're just holding something straight out in front of you or whatever or above your head. You just got to stand there holding it above your head. And after a few minutes, it's just going to be killing your shoulders, it's going to be killing your back, your neck. It's just going to be screaming and you're sitting and saying, well, hey, let's just sit down and let's talk about something or let's make love. And you're like, I can't focus on anything but this thing. Like you really can engage or be present or be

beautiful or wonderful or there because there's this pain. Right. It has to be... It's got to get rid of it, right? Exactly. And it's really... This can be super challenging for men because we don't have this same need. Right.

Or drive and yes, I use the word need in this case there. There are some well -known presenters out there. They're like, no, there's no needs needs are the only thing you call a need is like food water and shelter that you die without it. And I was like, that is so shallow and short -sighted because we have there layers and layers of human needs. So yeah, you won't die, but you'll be miserable or you won't have the connection we're talking about an absolutely extraordinary.

marriage and a whole person, well this is a need. Needs to happen. Now we've also seen that when this is misunderstood in a marriage, which is unfortunately more often than not, one of the negative side effects it has is that it does disconnect couples because from the woman's perspective, and she may not be able to articulate this, in fact there's very few people who can, but she feels less

less of a desire to physically connect with you through sex because you're not meeting this need that she has. And, you know. And the man right now is like, what? What is listening? Right. What is her talking about this stuff? What do you have to do with sex?

Rachel Denning (14:54.797)
But it's this circle, again, if you think of this circle, it goes round and round. And her ability to open up and share with you and feel heard by you mentally, emotionally, and physically opens her up to receiving intimacy from you. And that can be like crying and like, it sounds like complaining.

It can just be saying out loud whatever she's thinking or afraid of or worried about all the concerns, all fears, worry are coming out and to a man you're like, are you kidding me? And the man's trying to fix the problems, trying to tell her she doesn't need to worry about it. Trying to, he's going into his man brain like, this is so dumb. Like what are you talking about? And it's like this huge turn off to him.

And then afterwards she's like, oh, I feel so much better. And he's like, I'm done with you. If he laughs enough to stay in the room. Well, this is actually the perfect story that happened to us. We were in the process of figuring these things out. And luckily we figured this out a long time ago. Yeah. But, but so we were living in Morocco at the time. And again, we were, we were beginning to understand this about ourselves.

And I remember you were initiating intimacy and I was open to it but I also had what we call it all these tabs open. Like I had all these open tabs in my brain that I needed to close. We didn't yet understand this fully. And so I'm going through and I'm mentioning all these things, I'm saying all these things, I'm closing all these tabs and oh and then this, oh and this, this happened, oh and then the kid said this and this. And in my mind I'm like you what? Wait, my perspective first. After a few minutes later.

You know, he'd been just kind of rubbing my legs or my back or all these things, you know, while I'm talking. And then he just gets up and walks into the bathroom and I'm like, where are you going? He's like, well, obviously you're not interested in sex right now. So I'm gonna like... I'm just getting ready for bed. I'm getting ready for bed. And I was like, no, actually now I'm totally ready. Like I just...

Rachel Denning (17:06.765)
cleared all these tabs, I closed them down, I'm ready now babe, and he was like, what? And so from your perspective, you're thinking.

Yeah, I'm like, oh great. There goes any of my chances of making love tonight. She's just going to go and talk. I'm like, okay, fine. I'll be a good husband listening. She just goes on and on and on, getting all this stuff out. And I'm like, okay, now I'm just going to brush my teeth and go to bed disappointed. Which was interesting. You already knew enough that you weren't trying to give me answers or solutions. You were just quote unquote listening, right? Just not saying anything. But then we're just like, I'll get ready for bed while I listen, you know?

We finally understood like, no, this is actually preparing me. This is actually helping me because I'm getting all of these things off my mind.

so that then I can be in my body instead of my head and I'm open and ready for this. So that's a key part of this, of something that is holding couples back. Because you have husbands coming to you who are being coached by you saying, my wife's not interested. And you're trying to walk them through this process of you have to listen, you have to help her close the tabs. Now the challenge. And they often say, well I do listen. I'm just, I'm sitting there listening and we're gonna get into like what it really looks like.

Then they'll say like, well, I can't let her say something if it's wrong. We're like, ah, hold on a second. But then the other challenge is that if this process hasn't been happening.

Rachel Denning (18:37.677)
there's gonna be stacks and stacks and like desktops full of tabs that need to be closed and so if a guy's thinking, okay, I'm gonna listen to her so we can have sex in an hour, it doesn't work like that. Cause she literally might have to talk to you for a week and cry to close all of those tabs that have been open forever.

And you might think, oh, this doesn't even work. It's not going anywhere, you know? And then if she ever picks up that you're doing it just so you can get sex, well, there you go. You've just ruined the whole thing. And I think that's super important. You're not like checking off the box. You're not going through the motions. You're not going to be like, oh, okay, if I listen, then we'll have sex. Okay, I'll listen. It's not that. You listen.

because you love her. And you understand that this is...

important for her well -being and for your connection as a couple? For the relationship, for the marriage, for the intimacy. Intimacy in this context is very different than the word sex. In fact, I think we should get away with that whole, we've started using the word intimacy in the place of sex and I don't think that's accurate. Well, it can involve intimacy for sure. That's just physical intimacy, right? And it is, but intimacy is so much more, but this is part of intimacy and then

Because you're more intimate, you're more connected, you're closer, then sex is better too. Like everything's better. And so this, man, this is such a critical piece that, and I want to keep reiterating this.

Rachel Denning (20:20.749)
Men have a hard time understanding this because it's not the way we think. It's not the way we operate. It's not one of our needs. It's just not there. So when early on in our marriage, when you're trying to tell me this, I was like, what in the world? Like, no, what are you talking about? Well, and I think there was even a time when you tried to convince me I was wrong. Like it didn't have to be that way. Right. Because in my mind, I'm like, no.

Like you don't know, there's another way. Because I was thinking with, you know, like I don't need that. Right, there's got to be a better way. I must have worked my way out of this. Obviously this doesn't have to be a thing, you know. Well, and so I wanted to mention this for sure earlier, but I'll mention it now. If you're someone who's thinking, yeah, you know, men and women, they're pretty much the same.

Women aren't more complex, like you just have to figure out that we're pretty much the same and go from there.

That's not true. And the reality is women are just more complex. And if you're a woman and that bothers you, we need to find some peace with that. One of the things that has proven this to me, among many other things, was when Greg and I went together to get our blood work done. We were really focusing on functional health and preventative medicine. We went to this clinic and they took our blood work.

And we're gonna do all these other things with it. They're just they're laying out a full blood panel is measuring all kinds of things in our bodies right and so we read it and I like oh, this will be super cool and then they what they do is they They what they take our blood and they're running stuff and literally like we're there for a little bit and then by the time we're We're about to roll out They're they're ready to give me my results

Rachel Denning (22:20.973)
Like it was super fast and I'm like, okay, here's all this stuff. I'm like, wow, this is fantastic. I'm looking at my numbers and I'm like, oh, well, this is good. And I mean, they tested my testosterone levels and cholesterol and all this different stuff. I'm like, this looks great. Here's all these numbers, this, that. I'm like, great. I'm like, well, this is cool. We went over mine. I'm like, okay, let's look at Rachel's. And they were like, I can't remember. I think it was like three or four days. They're like, yeah, we'll get hers. I'm like, why? It was a minimum of two days. They're like, oh, hers will be done in like,

two to four days and we were like, what? What the heck? I'm like, dude, mine, you're handing me mine right now and tell me, like an hour later, what gives? And they're like, Oh man, the female body is so

much more complex and complicated. Like there's so much more work. It's going to take us days to have her results ready. Right. And it just, I knew they were different, but that one hit. It was just another confirmation to us after all we studied in psychology and philosophy and human development, like all of these different areas of study and research. Here was another one in biology saying women are just more complex.

And just a simple way, like your blood work, you want your blood work done, you wanna know about all of your levels and everything, it's gonna take not even twice as long, 10 times as long to get the results back as it will for a man. So that's kind of the basic framework you've got to come from is that, sorry.

to the women and to the men, because I know I was a woman that was bothered by this previously. Like I didn't like the fact that I might be more complex or more sensitive or more this or more that or all of these things like it bothered me. Or even like words like chaotic or emotional. Yeah, exactly. Right. I didn't like that. I didn't want to be that way. And yet when I understand myself,

Rachel Denning (24:19.981)
the world around me and you know everything that goes into it and You come to terms with it. You're like, okay You just learn to work with it and it doesn't have to be a mess You don't have to be a hot mess. You don't have to be a dumpster fire. You don't have to be all these things you can be Whole you can be healthy you can be well and you can still if if and when necessary ugly cry to your husband and He's gonna understand what's going on and you're gonna understand what's going on and then you go on and you move on

And it's not a big deal like we've gotten to the point now where when we need to resolve something when I need to talk to you about something we can do it in Sometimes it takes an hour, but it's usually less than that and then we go on and and we can honestly say

There's no buildup. There's no baggage. There's no, oh, don't you dare bring up that subject, right? That's some forbidden dark corner that hasn't been swept out or cleaned. Like it's just open and it's processed and there's no stacking because we take care of it. We don't keep putting it off. We don't keep procrastinating. We don't keep like burying it or stuffing it.

We're to this place now where there's nothing and if something arises, we address it and we move on and with clean, I don't know how to describe it, clean vessels. Well, in a way it's... There's no dark dusty corners. It's become productive. It's become like this effective approach, systematic approach that makes it manageable and...

So nice. You can handle it. It's not overwhelmingly crushing you because you're like, ah, I don't know how, which I know when you begin this process, it's going to feel like that. Cause we've got so many wounds and so many scars and many of you. So many thorns in our flesh. Yeah. You've got all kinds of. We're protecting. Don't touch that. Some of you have open wounds still that are still bleeding. They've, they've never been here.

Rachel Denning (26:33.999)
They've never been addressed. We meet people like this all the time and

It just has never been healed. Or you've just been stacking and stuffing and stacking and stuffing and you just have years of this unaddressed, unprocessed pain or struggle or whatever it is. So I want to re -emphasize something Rachel was saying. It's like, don't try to fight it or resist it.

Like learn to work with it. And that doesn't mean you don't have, you know, emotional and mental mastery that you aren't guiding and directing yourself. Cause you don't want to be this chaotic mess. But when you start bringing things up, when you start practicing this, it's going to feel like a volcano or like a crazy tsunami. It's a storm. There's going to be a storm. It'll, you know, it may be the tsunami.

with the earthquake, with the hurricane.

with the volcano. It's all of it. And when it starts coming up, it feels overpowering. And you're like, oh my gosh, I'm just losing control of all this stuff. And it's got to get up and out. And I would say for men and women, all of us, practice this, especially at first, if there's a lot there, take it out on paper, not on people. And if there's very painful, ugly stuff,

Rachel Denning (28:09.325)
get that on paper first and then rip it up, burn it, shred it, get rid of it. Just get the ugly, ugly, painful stuff on paper enough times to where then when you have to talk, it can still come out and it can still be pretty intense. But man, the mean, hurtful, the ugliest, darkest stuff is not being thrown in.

Face and onto the person you love the most right no, so that's a good point because when we're talking about this We're not saying anything goes you can abuse your spouse verbally physically mentally That's not what we're talking about and so that if you have those kind of emotions. That's generally a result of Stacking of lots of unresolved emotions so the best way to begin getting those out is before you go to your spouse and you can

physically kick or punch a punching bag you can go work out and box at a gym like you can anything physical like that's gonna help if you get really upset go and be very physical in that way if you need to just scream go sit in your car and scream or go out in the forest and scream like just get all that out if you have very horrible mean terrible things to say write that out all on paper get it all out everything like no editing nothing it's all

pure, but when you go to talk to your spouse... Say it or scream it in your car, right? Go somewhere where no one can see you and think you're losing your mind. Exactly. But then get it all, scream it, yell it, say it. Then take the edited version and present that to your spouse and say, this is how... Because when you're doing this process and you're trying to be open, you're trying to be honest, you're trying to talk...

Sometimes that is going to hurt or be painful or ugly. It's not that you can't share any of that, but it shouldn't be the most, you're not trying to stab your spouse to death with your words, right? Exactly. And you can be direct. You can say what needs to be said.

Rachel Denning (30:17.581)
But I think like you said, you're not trying to stab them to death. You're not trying to injure them, even if you feel like you might want to. You're not trying to harm them. You're trying to create a phenomenal marriage and fix legitimate problems. Right. You're trying to connect with them ultimately. So that is that that would be the first step. If you feel those intense emotion, if there's a lot of buildup, then you need to begin in that way. Or if you start with your spouse and it gets intense and

then you say, hey, I gotta take a break. I'm gonna go punch a punching bag for a little bit here, you know, and do that in a non -harmful way because, like you said, we're not trying to hurt each other. We're trying to help each other. But then, when you go to speak to your spouse, first of all,

You've got to have this framework of understanding. You both have to try and understand what's going on. Now, that doesn't happen overnight. It's going to take time. And so I would certainly recommend reading books like Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus because it gives you back to this idea of shared vocabulary. If you don't have the same meaning for words, then it's more difficult to explain what's going on. You can't say, hey, I need you to listen to me because your husband says, I am listening to you. What are you talking about? Right? That's exactly what I was thinking.

You say, sweetheart, I need you to listen. He's like, okay, I'm listening. You're like, no. And he's like, yes, I am. No, you're not. Yes, I am. I'm listening. Right. But in, you know, like men are from Mars and women are from Venus, he says, when you're listening to your spouse, you're doing these things and you're saying these things. Like, this is what she needs. And then you both have this clear understanding of what exactly you're talking about and what it means and what it looks like and how it's supposed to be done.

So you really do need to read those books together and discuss them. And I say listen to this episode and other episodes we've done where you either you can listen to separately and discuss or listen to them together. But again get on the same kind of ground get to an understanding. Let a third party introduce some ideas where you're like oh okay I can get what's being said here. And I can't emphasize enough how critical this is because it's one thing if you try to tell your spouse something and it's a totally different thing when they hear it from another source.

Rachel Denning (32:38.031)
and then you both have that reservoir of information in your heads and then can talk about it together. It changes it completely. If you can't do that with your spouse, you're gonna have a...

very, very, very difficult time overcoming these challenges because you don't have a shared framework. You must have that shared framework. And that honestly is the best way I think to eventually get to the place where then you can tell each other. That was even true in our journey. Like early on, if I said something, you're hesitant because it was coming from me and vice versa. You're saying, I'm like, ah. But we heard it from so many different books.

There's so many different places that now we've gotten to the point where Rachel says, okay, I need you to understand this or do this or this is… And I can reference the book or the idea and you know what I'm talking about. And she can tell me very specifically and I'm like, oh, okay.

I'm understanding what you're saying to me. Like what you mean and very specifics. And so I don't have to, I don't know, it's just that funky thing we have as human beings. Like we don't want to hear it if it's from the person closest to us. But you can get to that point then and we're there where we can just say, okay, here's what I'm experiencing and this is what I would like. And if some of you have spouses that just refuse,

Because I know we've come across them there are people out there who just refuse to it's like an attack on their Their being that someone might suggest especially their spouse that they should listen to something or read something that might indicate they need to improve How dare you suggest I need improvement? Right like it's absurd, but it happens and in those cases I think

Rachel Denning (34:36.237)
These types of things are so important that you must insist upon it. And we've done that in our marriage. There have been times when you're like, no, I insist this needs to happen.

You need to read this. You need to listen to this. We have to overcome this challenge and it's not gonna happen until things change and change will come when you listen to this. Insist upon it. You have to. If you really care about your spouse and you want to see improvement in your marriage, you're gonna have to start putting some firmer boundaries and some of those mean we need to change, you need to listen to this, and we need to talk about it.

And it's almost in some ways that simple. Even you just saying it like makes me nervous like, oh, but it's so true. It's true. It has to be done. You have to be able to, well, it's like somebody one time said, you have to put your foot down, but just not on top of your spouse's foot. Exactly.

And you do, you've got to draw some line and have some boundaries like, no, this is unacceptable. And if your spouse says things like, well, what you just think I'm not good enough to say, none of us are good enough. None of us are as good as we could be. We all need improvement. Like this isn't about you. This is about all of us. We have to make these efforts. It's always shocking to me when I get messages like that, which is far too often, sadly. And I'm blown away. I'm like.

Are you kidding me? Does he seriously think like he's... The cat's meowing? All that and the bag of chips? Is he so clueless he doesn't realize there's a real strain in your marriage? Like the fact that you're writing me saying our marriage is really struggling, how do I ask him to be better? Like seriously? How do I get them to listen to this podcast or to read this book? Like...

Rachel Denning (36:22.445)
Seriously, like I don't. Is that clueless? I don't think so. I don't think they are. Okay, so let's, um, let's dive into some real specifics. Um, you'll.

All right, maybe maybe you describe this best of how it kind of stacks or builds like and it comes up and it's not it's not just one thing. It's all the things. OK, so yeah, that's first one framework that you need to understand.

more often than not for a woman when she gets upset about something or she cries about something or she quote unquote complains about something it's not

The thing that she's complaining about that's the actual problem. And of course to a man right away you're like, what? Yeah, like are you you're seriously crying over that? Like I will I will leave right now this instant. I will go buy you another one. I think the other thing was seven dollars. Like I'll be back. And she's like, no, it's not like, no, but you're crying and telling me about the thing. And she's like, it's not saying like, well, but you're sitting here telling me it's the thing. And it's so confusing for a man. It is. But I.

And for me the best analogy or the visual metaphor of this is that thing is the tip of the wave that's crashed on the shore. And so she has to start there. The problem with verbal language is that it's...

Rachel Denning (37:57.485)
It's linear, you know, a picture's worth a thousand words, literally. When you look at a picture, you can see everything that's there. But if you go to describe the picture, you have to start somewhere. And so the picture in her mind of everything that's bothering her is the ocean. Her trying to start describing it is the wave crashing on the shore. And it's like picking one teeny part of the picture and starting to talk about it. There's a tree over here with flowers. And Mary's so simple, we're like, oh, OK, so we're talking about a tree. She's like,

No, I'm talking about this painting. But you just said the tree! And that's where the man's brain's like, I can't compute! I thought we were talking about the tree! No, we're not talking about the tree. We're talking about the whole painting. I just started with the tree. Okay, let's move on. And the guys in there, because we get in the fix -it mode, fine, I'll just go chop down the tree! I'm getting my chainsaw right now! Don't you dare chop down that tree! That belonged to my grandmother! But I thought you hated the tree! It's like, if you don't...

Catch yourself, gentlemen. That's what you start doing. You just go in fix -it mode and like, and you're like, what? It's not even a problem. It's not even that big of a deal. Why are you sitting here, ugly crying? It's not even a big deal. It's not even an issue. And you're missing the whole big picture. Because you haven't yet allowed her to explain the entire painting. Which she probably can't, honestly. Right.

That's the other challenge is she doesn't yet have the skills to articulate the whole painting. Now, what we often see happening with clients is you're saying, man, you need to listen to your wife. She has all of these things. She's trying to process. She's trying to work through. You need to listen to her. And he's like, why I'm listening to her, but I can't allow her to X, Y, Z. I can't allow her to, you know, say things that are inaccurate. I can't allow her to throw me under the bus. I can't allow her to do this. So he's trying to start arguing with her or defend himself or

to correct her perceptions. None of that's going to work in this type of listening. The man wants to be right. Accurate. Logical. Yeah, accurate, logical. She's being metaphorical. We're feeling this desire rising us of like, oh, that's wrong. Okay, let's be logical about this. Let's be reasonable. Let's not. Now you just said one thing and now you just said the opposite thing. Exactly.

Rachel Denning (40:19.407)
Are you kidding me? Now you're over here, now you're over there. I thought you said you were happy, now you're just telling me you're miserable. Like what? Are you going insane? And we're trying to reason through all this with logic and accurateness. You just have to stop. And what she's trying to do is she's literally trying to describe this painting.

which is filled with lights and darks and flowers and sun and moon and sky. Like the painting is very complex. There's a lot in there. There's tons and tons and tons in the whole painting. And she feels each part. Right. Intensely. And she wants to describe it. She wants to share it. She wants to release it so that then it's not bouncing around in her head forever, creating this chaotic mess because that's what's happening. Otherwise it's like all of these things are going everywhere.

And as she's releasing it, you're literally wanting to like put it in order and stack it up and fix it. And she's like, no, just let me get it all out. I'm trying to tell her why she doesn't need to feel that way. Or even trying to make her, you either consciously or wrong. Yeah. Like you're trying to make her wrong. Like no.

Babe, that's just, that's not the case. No, and maybe you're doing it subconsciously or consciously and you're trying to make her wrong. Don't do that. Or trying to show that she's missing things, which in this situation she likely is, but it's a part of the entire portrait she's trying to get out. And I think that's important.

Because she feels so intensely, she might misrepresent things. She might misunderstand things. She might be a little blinded. This isn't the place to be like, no, you're seeing this incorrectly. And in fact, what I've learned with myself is that if I'm allowed to go through this process of throwing out all of these things, I generally come to my own conclusions of like, oh, well, yeah, that's actually a little extreme. And I settle back into something that's more.

Rachel Denning (42:24.813)
accurate and perceptive, but if I'm not allowed to do that, I get very defensive and then I'm going to, I'm going to hold my ground and I'm going to prove this. I'm going to die on that hill. Even though you know it's wrong conceptually. So men will think through things, process things, go all around in their minds and then they'll say something like, you know, I think maybe we should do this.

your wife is often going to just whatever comes up like I'm thinking you know what we just need to move and you're like what you're like no okay maybe let's just do this and she's just throwing out any idea over here over there and some of them are crazy and dumb and ludicrous just it's a way don't say anything thinking out loud it's a way of processing ideas and thoughts any crazy thought that comes up can come out it's okay and she'll she'll say it and then later she'll realize that was really

And that's how she comes back and like, oh no, yeah, we really don't need to do that. But if you hold on to everything she says. And like, but you said. Yeah, exactly. You, I heard you say with your own mouth, like don't do that, man. She's not literal in everything. She's just like.

What about this? Exploring. And she doesn't, and it's usually not a question for him. Yeah. It's usually so intense. It's a statement. It's a statement. What's an ocean? This, this, and this. And the man's brain's trying to grab hold of a statement like he would make it. Right. He's trying to be the anchor. Yeah. And she's the ocean and he's like, what's going on here? So I've also seen with myself that it's kind of sometimes it's almost like I'm pulling on a thread. And so I will pull things out of my brain.

and I'm testing them. I'm trying to see what hits, what I feel. And especially lately I've done this more. Because Greg will be like, well, you know, we both can tell when something's off. Like something's off, you're not feeling exactly right, you're a little, maybe a little more irritable, maybe a little more upset, maybe a little more frustrated, like what's going on here? And I'll throw things out and I'll obviously start with what's right in front of me. Well, that just, the stupid thing just happened right here, or that broke, or this. And then I'll pick the next thing.

Rachel Denning (44:37.741)
that happened maybe before that or that happened yesterday or that happened and I'll pull on stuff until sometimes I can tell because my eyes will start to water. I'm like, that's it. That's what's really bothering me. But I don't know it until I can pull out these things of like, is it this? Is it this? Is it this? It's that one right there. And then I know that's what's really bothering me. And then we can actually talk about that thing. But before we knew that, we'd end up talking about all of those things and wasting all of this time.

until we actually got to the real thing that was really bothering me. I think that is so insightful right there, that visual of just pulling all these strings. It's like the magician with the hat pulling out. And sometimes it's just a string and sometimes it's a string attached to it, just a big blob of something and it's got to come up and out. As we're sitting here talking about this, it might...

I don't want it. It kind of might sound like we're just chaotic, crazy like this. Like we're, we're in such a good place. Like it rarely, rarely happens. And when it does, it's, it's gentle, it's calm. There's, there's something, an irritation comes out and we're like, yeah, it's a lot more subtle. It just moves on now, but it's still there. Like there's no, you guys, there's just no.

And again, I'm not trying to make you feel bad if you're still in this spot. It's like we've been working on this for a very long time. There's no craziness, no screaming or yelling. There never has been. There's no insulting. We just, we've just never done that. It's not ugly. We're not fighting. There's no, there's nothing where like our marriage is being damaged. The kids are afraid like that never happens anymore.

And if that happens in your marriage, we're not trying to make you feel bad, we're trying to say, you can work through this and this is one of the critical ways to do that. Now, there are times when we speak with passion and intensity and that can happen when we're discussing a subject like the other day I was talking about, we're listening to this book about archaeology and astronomy and like ancient people and I was talking about...

Rachel Denning (46:53.453)
how they understood pie and all of these things. She was just telling me about like these cool mathematical things. She's like, are you mad? Are you fighting? I'm like, no, I'm just really excited and intense about this. But I had also used a similar type voice a few days before or the day before because I was getting after something Greg had done that I thought he shouldn't be doing. And I was very firm and adamant about it. And I was using a very intense.

serious voice and you know same type of thing. She didn't like that either but it's my passionate voice right and so we're not saying there's no emotion being shown at all but it's it's not the not mean yelling mean you know screaming it's not that kind of stuff that we're talking about which again is something you have to work on getting to. It wasn't always like that there's been more intensity in our past but

It's something you can learn how to understand what's going on. And that's the key, I guess, here, is once you begin to get this framework and understand what's happening, then you're able to figure out exactly what it is you're talking about. Because, you know, even clients I've worked with, they'll be like, well, yeah, he thought I was talking about the trees or the grass or the flowers or the flower bed. But really, it's not about that. My real concern is that he doesn't trust me.

He doesn't listen to me. He doesn't really value my opinions. That's the real issue, but he thinks it's about the grass or the flower of it. And I think that's very important and worth focusing in on a bit here because, well, you might not know what the core issue is. And then even if you do, you might not be able to articulate it or get to it.

So it's very valid that you might be going in circles around things that aren't the real thing. And it's important to point out that people, and in this case, just in this context, we're talking about men listening to women. Women might be speaking their symptoms.

Rachel Denning (49:15.597)
So what they're saying is a symptom of a bigger problem. They're speaking their deeper fears or worries or concerns or unmet needs. But they might be using physical objects in the real world as a representation of that. So they're saying this one thing and you can get fixated on that and be like, oh, that's what they're talking about. It's like, no, no, no, no. And they try to fix that.

What's the, yeah, exactly. Like one of my clients says, like, feels like I'm playing whack -a -mole. Cause she's like, it's this, or it's this, or it's this, or it's this. Like, what the heck? Really, all of that is symptoms for an underlying problem. Exactly. So, and a good husband's like, oh, well, I'll take care of this, I'll take care of this, I'll take care of this, I'll take care of this. And he's like, well, it didn't, it didn't fix anything. She told me those were all the problems and I did all of them and it didn't fix the problem. That's because it's not the problem. Those are all symptoms. Yeah. All the branches of the root of the problem.

or symptoms of this cause. And again, she may not know it or be able to articulate it. And she may not even, like my experience is she doesn't know what the real underlying cause is, but she just is talking to all these feelings and worries and concerns and all this stuff. Those are just vehicles of the symptoms she's trying to get at. And it's almost like you have to be a detective.

And you're listening, you're sincerely listening, you're hearing it and probably not in the moment but afterwards you're like, okay, what's she really saying? And ultimately it'll come back to something like that, like, I don't know if I can trust you. I don't feel like, yeah, you trust me, you respect me. I don't feel validated, I don't feel respected. You listen to me, you find me attractive or find me...

you know, that I'm smart, that I have valuable opinions. Yes. She's almost always going to be speaking from some kind of insecurity, insecurity, meaning she, she's lacking some kind of security or certainty. That's a gigantic driver for women. They need to feel certain and secure. So she's often speaking of some kind of insecurity where

Rachel Denning (51:41.997)
It's something underlying there where she's like, I'm just not sure about this. And so she'll talk about a hundred different things. And the one underlying cause was she feels insecure about something. Right. But the challenge is that when she starts to talk about those things, he goes into fix it mode, trying to fix it, which doesn't allow her to get to the underlying problem because she's now on the defensive defending these things instead of continuing to delve deeper into.

where the real problem is. And so they never get to that and they never get to fix it. And she never feels that that's resolved because guess what? He did the exact thing that makes her feel that way. He never got to get to that inner sanctum in a way to see her true self and say, I love and respect your true self. Now she feels secure and doesn't have to do this game and this song and dance of.

Trying to tell him it's all these things that he needs to fix that he can't actually fix because really it's inside. It's in her. And if it's a deep insecurity, she's going to protect it and hide it. And so she's going to come up with all, well, our life will be better. Our kids will be happier. Our marriage will be better. Whatever. If you do this and then you do it. Well, no, it's if you do this. No, it's if you do this. And it never gets to that deep core issue.

because she's never had the time, space or attention to be fully listened to. Now again, if this has been stacking for months, years, decades, this process is gonna take a while, legitimately. And some practice. And it's gonna take a lot of practice. Ironically, she's gonna have to practice talking. Mm -hmm. Because there's a skill there of...

like Rachel was saying, pulling the strings out and talking through it. And if she's used to just throwing things out there and then defending and being defensive, well, she's going to be suspicious of you and like, wait a second. And she will test you, dude, and test you. That is just the nature of the feminine, to test the masculine. Will they handle this? Can they handle this? Will they stick around? Can I ugly cry? Can I...

Rachel Denning (54:05.133)
share my real worries and concerns. Can I just throw it all on you and will you, can you handle it? Will you stick around? Can you handle the storm? Right. And that's legit. And for many of you, you might be like, that's terrible. It sounds horrible, even as a woman. And yet that's the process that's played out. Not only in our own lives and our own marriage, but in all the books we've read about this subject. That's what happened. The woman is the ocean and she's going to test you with her storm. And if you can't withstand it,

She's not opening to you fully. Exactly. And so sometimes she doesn't really even tell you what she's deeply afraid of. Well, and then, and then as she's, and it feels like vomiting sometimes, as she's vomiting all of this on you, she's simultaneously thinking, he can't stand me. Yeah.

He hates me. I'm so annoying. I'm so irritated. I'm so ugly. I hate it. He hates it. And you've told me this. You're like, when you've done it, you're like, it's so hideous even to me. Like you've said this, like it's hideous to you. And then you'll do it and you're like, you don't even like me.

You're terrible. I'm just a despicable human being. Right? And she's worried. She has to get it out, but she's worried because it's crazy. Right. Exactly. And it's so funny when you're in, because there's a, it's almost like emotion. It is an ocean. It's almost like it takes over. And when I'm in an emotional state, I don't think clearly. I think that the, um,

the way the brain functions, it's almost like a fight or flight type mode, perhaps, that turns off the... Why can't I think of the word?

Rachel Denning (55:57.773)
Prefrontal cortex. It turns off the prefrontal cortex, so I'm not thinking in the same logical way. So when I'm not in that and we talk about it, it sounds so funny. It's so ridiculous. You know, it's like, oh, that's silly. But when I'm in it, it is a totally different brain state. It really is. It really is. And so we have to both of us be aware of what's going on. And we don't even call it out. You know, we'll be like, oh, yeah, it's the ocean right now. Like, let's just ride the waves and get through.

it but that's how we understand what's happening because otherwise you do get drowned by the waves neither of you really understanding what's happening to you and what's going on and she will say and do things in that state that

Again aren't reasonable or even accurate there's been many times and have it with us and with others Where you'll say just leave me alone? which the last thing you want me to do is to leave you alone or you'll just walk away and you'll leave and

and or tell me to go away, just go away. But what do you really mean? What I really mean is that I need you to love and accept me. In fact, I need you to touch me. So in this state, if you withdraw physically from me, it makes me feel even more vulnerable. Even though you just said, don't touch me, don't come near me, go away, leave me alone. What you're really wanting.

Again, it's part of the test, right? You're saying can he stand this? Does he still love me even though like I'm being crazy or crying, illogical. I'm complaining of all this stuff. Will he still touch me? Will he still love me? Will he still cuddle? So like in at least for us,

Rachel Denning (58:05.805)
when this has happened and I have to articulate this. It is so challenging for a man to want to sit here and touch and hold and cuddle his wife when she's just blah blah blah and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is so ridiculous. So hideous. So crazy. You want me to just cuddle you?

Like I don't even feel like being in the same room with you. Like if I could just run off to my man cave or my car or my motorcycle or the weight room or a boxing bag or my mouth. Like if I could go anywhere but here, I would be okay. But you're driving me crazy woman. And now you want me to hold you. And it's like, it's almost like this repulsive like.

I want to strangle you so you stop. Exactly. Now the other challenge to this, this is why it's so complex because especially if, now I'm to the point where I understand what's going on.

And we'll even use this in our dialogue. Greg will say to me, is this a time when I listen or do you want answers from me? Do you want solutions? And sometimes I am, I'm just talking and I want solutions. No, give me some solutions. So we're at a place where we can do that. But then I'll just be like, no, just listen. I just need to get it out. And I don't know if I, the challenge when I'm vulnerable in that way, I don't think I would ever say,

No, I really need you to hold me. I want you to know that that's what I need. But I think I would say, no, I really just need some time to myself now because there will be those times, especially early on in a phase where she's trying to figure it out. She might legitimately need some space. I'm gonna punch something right now. No, you really need to go. So that is of course what makes it extra challenging is because sometimes that is what she actually needs and we've tried to teach these things to our kids and I know our daughters have been like, well I just wanna go.

Rachel Denning (01:00:18.671)
I try to know what I need and it's not going to happen. You have to articulate it for him. And then on the other side, we've explained to our sons that like your woman, she needs you to go after her and chase you. And so they have tried to use it with their sister sometimes and it doesn't work because it's a different type of relationship. So you can't just assume that if a woman says this, she means the opposite. No, that's not the case. We're talking about a unique situation where she's very vulnerable. She's very open. She's sharing her innermost feelings in a way that she doesn't do with

everyone else. So it can be difficult to navigate this because you don't know what is actually playing out there. Now when she means it and when she actually says go away like this happened early on where you say go away and this was really important at some point after a quote storm you said to me no what I

when I say go away or when I leave, I actually want you to follow me. Right. I want you to pursue me. Yeah, I want to be pursued. I want to know that after all that...

Ugly ass. Ugly dump. You still love me. Right. You still want me. You're gonna come fight for me. You're gonna pursue me even though I'm running. Yes. You're gonna chase me. Or when I say go away, you're not just gonna actually go away. Right. Because you're that. You're committed to me. Well, and at one point you're like, I wanna know that you're not just that weak of a man. I say go away and you say tuck your tail and leave. And I was like, oh.

Like I thought I was being a good husband by listening to my wife when she says go away. And I'm like, okay, yes, dear. She's like, no, that's not what I want. And I was like, but that's what you said. Exactly. And so yeah, you're right. There are times when you're like, just give me some space and the space is good. So if you can learn to be an adult and articulate that, that obviously is where the most power is. But if you're not sure,

Rachel Denning (01:02:08.941)
you are basically trying to figure it out together. And a lot of this that we've figured out often happened afterwards. So we would have something that went on and it was confusing to both of us and later we would talk about it. That's key. Later when we were both calmer and more rational and reasonable, then we would explain, well, I said this, but I was feeling this and I meant this and this represented this to me. And so we walked through it. So we had

had better understanding of what happened. And I think that that's something a lot of couples don't do, but it's really been key in helping us to better understand each other's psychology and the psychology of the relationship to know, hey, this whole thing happened, what happened? Let's talk about it. I remember one really vividly years ago where I felt like I was getting better, I was really listening.

but I was like on the other side of the room or on the other side of the bed. And I was like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm listening. Like I was engaged. I was looking at you. I focused and she's like, yeah, but you're all the way on the other side of the room. I saw I'm disgusting. Yeah. Exactly. As though you're as far away from me as you could possibly get while still staying in the room. And I was like, no, I was, I was just listening. He's like, well, it would be.

It would be better if you're right next to me holding my hand or you're touching me so you don't yeah so I'm not detestable. So that I know that you still want and adore me. While you're processing I can handle the storm and still adore you and and I wrote this down I want to like I want to articulate this for you if gentlemen if if you're annoyed or resentful.

or disengage, you're distracted if you're trying to disagree, if you're trying to prove her wrong, if you're trying to fix her problems, you're not really listening. And there's an energy to that. So you have to man up and be able, the way I visualize it now is just be the lighthouse, be the rock.

Rachel Denning (01:04:24.333)
in that storm and the wind and the waves and the storm raging against in the lighthouse just sits there calmly shining the light and it's not making you better. You're not the light in the dark marriage. Like it's not making you better. You're just you can handle the storm and you can sit and listen and let her process and just throw it all out and you're not bothered by it. You're not worked up. You're not just taking everything literally.

And personally. And personally, yeah. Don't sit there and be so... Man, this makes me want to swear. Don't be so fragile that you're just this little beat up puppy. Just take it like a man. And if she calls you out on some of your crap, own it and fix it, dude. Stop. The only way this works is if you're actually striving to be a better human being.

If you're just still persisting in your own crap and she's calling you out and you're like, oh, she was just having an emotional day. No, it's your crap, dude. Fix your crap. Drop all your vices, your addictions, anything that's keeping you captive or in bondage. Anything is holding you back from being a fully engaged husband and an amazing father. Drop that crap, be done with it and man up.

And then listen like this, wholly, fully, like engage and hear it and be the strength so she can just get it all out. And then you're there. Because and it's so interesting and fascinating to me. I've literally analyzed this for a very long time and I've I've thought about it archetypally. I've thought about it.

psychologically, philosophically, mythically, religiously, like there's really a lot of depth here in what's going on. It's this whole dance between men and women, between chaos and order, between creation, like there's really a lot here. There's more than meets the eye. And that's one of the things that I love to do and think about is, you know, seeing all of these archetypes play out. And...

Rachel Denning (01:06:47.533)
Ultimately, I think that is what happens here on a deep level is that a woman essentially is trying to find that rock. A lot of us women, especially nowadays... Because it's certainty, it's surety, it's security. Exactly. And especially nowadays, women are...

They want to be equal with men, but in a way that makes them just like men, right? And that's not what real equality means to me. Real equality is recognizing our own unique gifts and capabilities and strengths and then...

complementing each other are kind of like the yin and yang. I love the yin and yang symbol. And it's like that. It's this mix of different balancing characteristics and qualities that make us both strong and equal. We're not inferior because one is this way and the other is that way. But I think today too many women are trying to be just like a man.

But in a strong relationship, you thrive by having the opposites.

Our relationship thrives when I embrace my feminine and the masculine parts of me. I have a masculine side as well, right? That's my, especially my ambition, my productivity, you know, all of those types of things. I have that as well. I'm embracing my true aspects and you're embracing yours and we're using them to balance each other out. And so in this archetypal way, the feminine is the chaos. It's the potential for creation. It's the potential, you know, the ocean.

Rachel Denning (01:08:28.975)
is created, it's a force of life, you know? The field of pure potentiality, it's chaos and it's nothing but it's everything, right? It's where everything comes from.

And yet that has to be balanced with something else that's its opposite. And so I think that that's what the masculine is in this sense. It's this certainty. It's the lighthouse. It's the rock where the woman's the ocean. And not that they can't play those differing roles, but in these types of interactions, when you understand that that's what is needed, when I'm the storm, you need to be the rock. And if you can be that rock, that just makes sense.

both of us better and stronger and it makes the relationship better and stronger. Because I know that you're that certainty and you know most of the time I've got my crap together right it's not like I'm this chaotic mess and that's not what we're saying like women should go around being a chaotic mess and the men will hold up no that's not what I'm saying.

In fact, in our case, it's actually quite rare because like we said before, we don't have any issues. Right. We've resolved all the issues. We work through the issues as they come up. As the problems come up or the concerns or emotions come up, we make it a priority to focus on working through that. We don't postpone it. It happens when it needs to happen. We even put off work sometimes or we'll tell the kids, hey, we got to talk. We're working on something. And we make it a huge priority. And because of that,

that you're right the times when the storm happen are very rare and infrequent because we have this beautiful process that allows us to maintain that sense of balance I guess in the universe right? Yep so and again I have to point this out this in our case right now because we've been working on this so long the storms are quite small and infrequent but

Rachel Denning (01:10:33.645)
If you have chronic issues that are not being addressed, if there are problems and she keeps bringing it up and you don't fix it, like whatever, it could be your... Fix it might be the wrong word because in this case we're talking about just allowing it to be expressed while you are the rock. Yes, which is awesome. I'm speaking of an instance where let's say you have a bad habit.

Because this comes up a lot too, where someone will reach out to us and be like, oh, we always fight about money. And it's like, there's this issue around finances or the way we're parenting or health problems or whatever, where it's actually a chronic problem where you have a bad habit or a bad attitude. There's something that must be fixed and is not being fixed. This isn't, and I'm sharing this because I want to bring this up.

Cause I don't want you to walk away saying, Oh, she's just emotional. She just keeps talking about, she needs to process that. Like, no dude, you need to fix that crap. And she does too, right? She'll have things. So the way the storm, those big ugly storms go away is cause we actually resolve a legitimate problem. Like there is a problem and it gets fixed. Now once it's fixed, there is a problem that needs fixing and it is fixed. Well then, then that's no longer an issue. And you're just processing other stuff. Yeah, you're right. Because.

That's also not.

what we're saying. We're not saying that, oh, if you do this process, then the real problems of life aren't really problems, right? Because you just, you're just processing the process. No, you actually do have to solve the real problems. And some of the storms are happening because there's real problems. I mean, we've had parents telling, I've had moms tell me like, I want to buy stuff for my kids homeschool and my husband won't let me spend the money or he doesn't make enough money or this or he won't let me have any control over this or he never listens to me about this. Those are real problems. Or he just,

Rachel Denning (01:12:30.447)
looking at porn all the time. Like that's a real problem and it is destroying your relationship. That has to stop. Right, so we're in no way saying that, oh if you just listen to your wife and let her process these emotions then the problems can go unresolved. No.

a lot of the storm is going to be caused because of real problems. They are real issues that need to be addressed and fixed. Now that kind of contradicts where like, don't go and fix it. Don't just say, don't worry, I'll take care of it, hon. She needs to have that period, that time when you listen to her and just allow her to express all of these feelings. But then that day or the next day you go to work fixing that problem. Right. Actually fix it. And I guess this is a real mark of maturity and communication and listening of knowing what

needs fixing and knowing what just needs to be heard. So I can tell like Rachel can talk through things and I'll just listen and let her say all the same. Okay, great. Then I can tell if she says something like, yeah, okay, that needs to be addressed. It's it's a real thing, especially if it's some kind of character flaw, or some kind of negligence. If you've been negligent in any way, and it's compounded, and she brings it up, then you better pay attention to crap and

and not in the moment, you're gonna listen, you're gonna hear, you're gonna reflect, and then you're gonna get dead serious about fixing the issues and the problems. And if there's chronic problems and chronic negligence, it must be addressed and resolved. Ooh, it's good, good stuff, important, critically important.

So hopefully you walk away and we invite you to like listen to this and listen to it with your spouse and re -listen to it like regular reminders. Share it with friends and family and yeah, like and practice it. So learn about it and practice it. Make it a part of how you guys do life together. And now I hope you have or can have the beginning of a common vocabulary.

Rachel Denning (01:14:41.773)
common framework, a common reference of what less listening really is. And as you get better and better at this and process things that haven't yet been processed, there's gonna be, there will be some difficult, unpleasant things that need to be worked through. And can I make one more plea? Well, and I have something else to say to you. Okay. Don't leave anything

off limits. Some of you have these issues that I don't know why maybe from your own upbringing or maybe it's too painful or sensitive for you or whatever. You just have this thing like it's completely off limits. Maybe it's like you know you can never talk about me being overweight. It's completely off limits. Don't ever bring it up. That's crazy. It should be talked about and it should be talked about with your spouse. That's the one person that you should be able to talk to.

anything about. Maybe it's your finances. Maybe you don't talk about money. Maybe you don't talk about religion. Maybe you don't talk about sex. Maybe you don't talk like what are those? I mean, there's all these little like taboo things like you don't talk about. Don't remove that crap. Be willing to talk about anything and everything. And it's going to be tough.

But as you get to that point where it is just legitimately a full open book.

That's intimacy. Into me, you see. Right. Well, and what I want to add, because we've laid out this whole picture for people that sounds actually very terrible. It sounds so unpleasant, so horrible. Like, why would we do this? I think I just want to emphasize...

Rachel Denning (01:16:40.942)
that in the end it actually becomes an enjoyable process. I think it, not that it's, we've mentioned before that sometimes I'm like, oh this is so dumb or ridiculous, like why is this happening? But that's become more rare. More often than not, I find it a source of true connection. Where I have some sort of worry or concern, like even everything from is World War III starting, you know, to are we gonna be able to help our parents? Or.

or you know, whatever, how are we gonna help our kids find spouses? Anything that comes up on my mind, I know I can turn to you and I can talk to you about it. And because I can do that, there's so much strength in our marriage and so much more strength in me. Like I am a healthier person mentally, emotionally, because of that, because I have someone I can rely on no matter what. I'm gonna cry, gosh.

that I can just turn to you. You are my rock and you are there to listen to me, to hear me and I can share everything with you. So that's the beauty of it. That's the magic. That's the magic of it that it's not all unpleasant. There was unpleasantness and ugliness that we had to go through to get to that point as we figured this whole process out and it wasn't easy. And even now sometimes we still forget because sometimes we'll still be like, oh wait, wait, this is what's going on here.

Remember, oh, it's this that's happening and we have to remind each other. Especially me like, oh, oh, sorry, I forgot I'm not supposed to talk. My bad. I was in talk mode. Right. Especially true for me because I'm a coach. Yeah, like I'm constantly helping people and advising coaching and I'll have to stop. I'm not coaching. I'm listening and so stop. Exactly. And it's a beautiful thing that that I know now. Rachel can come to me. And she's not.

like in the same moment I'm in, I could be sitting there being like, gosh, what a beautiful day. And she's like, 25 years from now, what are we gonna do with our grandkids? And I'm like, oh, and then she's like, and 25 years ago, I'm like, what? Like, I can just see the beauty of her mind, like considering all kinds of things everywhere.

Rachel Denning (01:19:10.477)
and I get to see into you. I just let you think out loud and be you. Which that's what I want. And I want to know you and see that and really appreciate the beauty of our differences. Right. Well, and I've often thought that...

because of the unique needs and interests and desires between a man and a woman, between you and me, it's what completes the circle of our intimacy. You are drawn to me more consistently physically, which connects us that way, and I'm drawn to you more consistently with a need to share my feelings, which connects us that way, and I think invites you to, I mean, because you're very great at sharing with me and being open and sharing your thoughts with me. It's not so much a need for you.

but you've learned to do that more. And so I love it. Right. And so we love to have conversation, discuss things and be very open that way. And so it is, it's a circle of intimacy where each of us in the yin and yang bring our unique needs and desires to complete that circle, which keeps us fully and wholly intimate. Right. And in my drive,

to be physical with you, to have sex with you, it draws me to you. And your drive.

to be able to just process and express and share talk and just share whatever's on your mind draws you to me. And it would be so foolish of me to direct that elsewhere or turn it away or resist it because.

Rachel Denning (01:21:05.709)
I don't understand it or I don't have that same need and push it away just like it would be very foolish for you to turn away my sexual desire for you because it's not the same for you. Like I don't feel that way. It doesn't need to happen so much. If I turn that away, I am literally turning away that potential intimacy that we could share. We've even had people say like, oh, it's not a big deal.

husband looks at porn because then I don't have to deal with his sex drive anymore. You're literally killing your own intimacy. You are murdering it by pushing away that drive that's drawing them to you instead of accepting it and embracing it and using it to connect you further. It's becoming a wedge that drives you apart. And same on the other side. If I'm like, I'm glad my wife would just call her mom or sisters or grow out their girlfriends and tell them everything she's thinking about. So I don't think

worry about it. Same thing. I'm actually compromising our connection and our closeness. And if you want an absolutely extraordinary marriage, we have to have this level of closeness, connection, and intimacy. It is, you're right, it's a very, very beautiful and wonderful thing. And it is a skill that we need to learn and practice and implement. And it's huge.

And man, when it works, it's magic. It is magic in the marriage. So, okay, listen to this with your spouse or have your spouse listen to it, share it. Love you guys, practice listening. If you have specific questions or interests or concerns or wonder how, what about this, what about that? Suitors questions. We love that. Hopefully this has been extremely valuable for you. And this has been.

quite literally transformational in our relationship. And it can be for you guys too. Okay, love you, reach upward.

Rachel Denning (01:23:21.773)
you