#253 Sex IS a NEED for an Extraordinary Marriage

Rachel Denning (00:10.486)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Way podcast. And we're going to be talking about the extraordinary family

We've got a doozy for you today. Well, first we have to tell what happened though, because two days ago we sat down to record a podcast episode. Which is coming and it's gonna be really good. It's actually gonna be on ADHD because I did a reel on Instagram and I got some very interesting comments. And I hate, absolutely abhor that label. We'll get into that. We'll talk about that. If that's not a cliffhanger, I don't know what is. We recorded for like 45 minutes

it had only captured 32 seconds of it, so that was quite frustrating. But we're gonna come back to that because in the meantime, something else has sparked our passion. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. And for those of you who have already listened to all of our podcast episodes about sex, which there's at least four of them, here we are again. We're doing another episode about sex. And that's because...

I just feel like we have to say something. I feel like we have to speak out. I feel like ideas are being presented and taught on social media, I mean, all over the place, even in counseling by therapists, by doctors, that just aren't true. And I know that that's a very bold statement for us to make, but when I look at pragmatic application, when I look at the things that actually work in the relationships of people who actually have really great relationships, it doesn't match up with

whatever the research or this or that or the other says or what people are teaching. And so that's really what we're looking at is what actually works? What actually creates great relationships? Yes, because results don't lie. Exactly. And you might think, and people have said this to us, like, well, what are your credentials, Dennings? What gives you the authority or credibility to speak about this? And again,

Rachel Denning (02:08.666)
my whole approach always has been ours has been for anyone and everyone like results if you can produce consistent results and teach them to others so that they get consistent results and you don't this isn't consistent results at the sacrifice of everything else because somebody could say like well yeah i make millions and millions and millions of dollars oh but your marriage is falling apart your health is falling apart you have no spiritual life your kids hate you

then well your method sucks. But if you have consistent results across the board that are replicable without sacrificing the other important areas of your life, you've got credibility. You can, you have something to share. Yes and I think that while the reason why we are talking about this again is because we're seeing people share ideas that are not playing out well.

in the real world. It's the people that are teaching these things that if you actually put it into application, specifically in this case, which I'm gonna share in just a minute, it's destructive to relationships. Now, okay, I think we'll just dive into what the actual thing is. Well, wait, let me give a metaphor or comparison. There's a lot, tons, too much teaching out there that is comforting to hear. Yes.

People are teaching things that you want to hear because you're like, because it feels good to hear it. And you think, and you guys know this already, right? You've experienced it, you've seen it. You're out there and you want to be told things that you're like, oh, oh yes. It's almost like a confirmation bias. I want to believe that this thing is true. We want the easy way.

And so if somebody tells you there's a pill you can take to lose all this weight, you're like, Oh yes, thank you. You mean I don't have to transform my life and do all this hard work. I don't have to change. I can, I don't have to change anything. I can have, take a pill or have a surgery or again, health and fitness is the easy one. Cause we all get that. There are all kinds of health and fitness people out there saying, no, you can totally eat all the pizza you want.

Rachel Denning (04:29.354)
You can still have junk food and snack food. You still have fast food and lose all the weight. They're saying things like that because that's what people want to hear. The reality is, the hard result reality, is like, it just doesn't work. It's not sustainable and it's not healthy. So even if somebody tells you something you want to hear, like to hear, like, oh, I can be healthy and eat French fries.

You want to, of course you want to hear that because you like French fries. Exactly. But the truth is it's not healthy period. Right. And so I think this is actually very relevant and I think it definitely ties into my own personal experience. So I'm going to tell people what we're talking about now. So they're not continuing to be confused. Essentially I was on Instagram, which I do for my work and I saw real. And you know how they use these audios in the background and it was like,

Show me the myth show me the fact or whatever and so she's pointing in this video in this reel to the myth and the fact And the text comes up there The myth is sex is a need the fact is I don't even remember the fact is it doesn't sex is a desire Sex is a desire just one way to communicate or connect and my immediate thought was Okay, I get it because I truly do understand

And I want to talk about that in a minute this Desire women have to believe that sex is not a need okay, so I want to come back to that, but then okay Wait no on that point though I've never ever heard a man say sex is not okay. Well get to that for sure okay We're gonna get to that for sure, but then I thought no this isn't true because if you want to have

Oh wait, in the caption it said, and we've heard this before, this isn't the first time we've heard this, this has come from other well-known sex therapists, etc. Sex is not a need, needs are things like air, water, food. And I, first of all, I hate that reasoning because it makes no sense in the context of what you're trying to talk about. We're not talking about surviving here.

Rachel Denning (06:47.802)
you're literally talking about having a sexual relationship with someone or an intimate relationship with them and you're trying to say, well, it's not a need just like food is a need. So your argument is so irrelevant. Yeah. And then on the same pretext and the same context, you could say, well, fidelity is not a need. Communication, talking is not a need.

These are all desires. I desire you to be committed to me. I desire you to talk to me. In that context, marriage is not a need. Right, exactly. Being happy, having a good relationship, like getting along. Not a need. Yeah. Having a peaceful, loving, enjoyable, passionate, romantic, amazing best friend marriage, not a need, Rachel. Right. And so- It's food.

and water and shelter. Right, and so I feel like it's such a poor argument because it doesn't make sense in the context you're trying to explain. If you're trying to say, I wanna have a great relationship, which in a way I think that that's ultimately what they're trying to say. I wanna have a great relationship, therefore I'm gonna believe that sex is not a need for my spouse because I feel whatever, X, Y, Z, when my spouse needs sex. Maybe not, maybe, and I'm saying this because

You know, we've coached so many people and met and worked with and talked to so many people around the world.

We assume because we want to have extraordinary marriage. We assume that others do. True. Maybe not. I meet people who they're just absolutely committed to being single or they're committed just to being, having roommate status with their spouse. They're not into extraordinary marriage. And so this argument might be, let's just get rid of this problem. There's an annoyance in my marriage. My husband wants to have sex. And that's annoying. Let's put a stop to it. By believing and teaching that

Rachel Denning (08:49.298)
your need for sex is a myth, so you just need to get over that. Which is extremely like you said- Right referring to men, like a man's need. And I also want to be clear that, because part of the argument from this person that posted is that, well, that's so gender specific. You're putting people in these traditional roles that just aren't- Yep. I'm sorry. We're going off statistics here. Generally, not 100%, but generally, men want sex more than women, although there are women that want sex more and vice versa.

So, but if you're going off the bell curve here, yes, most men want sex more. So that's what we're talking about. But, but okay. And they also, as long as they're healthy, a man who is eats well, sleeps well, and is in good shape has a strong sex drive. Right now. Like

There's there's a subtle distinction here because some women desire sex more And you might even call it a sex drive, right? They call it. What were the how they refer to it? It's um, they just Some want it more than others higher Higher lower. No, I can't remember. There's a there's a term for it, but in just pure genetics in pure like looking at evolutionary biology a Male is driven

has a genetic drive hardwired into his body to seek out females and reproduce. Well, right, that's the ultimate biological cause of that desire is reproductive. And it's everywhere in the animal kingdom. I mean, it's all over the place. So it's also an absolutely absurd argument to be like, that's so...

That's so biased. And it's so, it's like this rooster, why does the rooster have to be on top of the head? Just yesterday, okay? We're moving from our house here in one part of Portugal to another part of Portugal. And we took our chickens with the rooster from here to the new place. And we let them out. And what's the first thing the rooster does when he gets there, he hops on top of the girl. Like he, I missed you, babe. We're back together.

Rachel Denning (11:12.586)
That's just biology, that's just how it works, okay? So let's back up here. So essentially, I felt the desire because I've started to believe that I need to speak out against things. I can't just let it go and be like, oh yeah, especially when it's connected to things we coach about and teach about and all that. So all I did is I reposted it on my story and then I responded with my own comment, which was essentially like,

Yeah, read your comment. It was really good. I will read my comment. If you want to have a great relationship with your spouse, then there are needs for that thing. And again, gosh, here's I don't know this person. And I don't know what's going on. But this argument seems to me when you when you look at it, when you look at the big picture of everything, we look at something holistically, and you guys know us, that's what we do. And if you're new to us,

That's what we do. We look at everything holistically. We try to take the entire package. So if you're talking about marriage, a man and a woman, husband and wife having a great marriage, you can't just look at one element and be like, well, it's just this thing. You have to look at the entire package. Well, if you look at the entire package, there are tons of human needs. And so for somebody to come out with an argument of like, you don't need sex, all you need is food and water, like that...

it just comes across as so absurdly ignorant and really unaware of your needs. Starting with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that entire pyramid of needs. And you go to the what's, what's been referred to as the six human needs. Right. So if you look just at that, if you look at the hierarchy of needs, well, obviously we know that to be fully developed, happy human beings.

You don't just need food and water and the basic survival things. That's the very lowest part of his hierarchy of needs. To only stay alive. Right, that's to stay alive. Exactly. Okay, I did find the comment, finally. I basically said, it depends on how you define need. For survival, no, sex is not a need. For connection, bonding and love, yes, it is a need. Can you imagine if your husband said...

Rachel Denning (13:37.098)
You don't need me to talk to you, it's just a desire. And then went days, weeks, or months without talking to you because it's not a need. You would feel pretty neglected. So if you want an extraordinary relationship, then sex and talking are needs. Beautiful. Okay, there's so much going on in my mind too. For survival of the species, sex is a need. Right. And that kind of goes back to biology. But then...

this other need thing this was years and years ago it would never be allowed now thankfully but years and years and years ago there was an orphanage I think it was in Russia and they you know they were overwhelmed they didn't have the staff to hold the children and cuddle them and give them affection the children who didn't get held and hugged and kissed and coddled and talked to

Rachel Denning (14:33.582)
They were given water, they were given the basic needs for survival, and yet they died. Yes, but according to her argument, which, and I totally agree with this, well yeah, so that's the essential human need is love and connection, which does not have to include sex. So, because she responded to my post that I put on my story, referring to sex, it's actually not a need. Love.

Belonging and connection are which you just pointed out in that example all of those things are needed, but not sex That's why you can go periods without step sex and still feel close in other ways postpartum health issues older age etc First of all let me address that Only a woman would say that so that was actually the part I was gonna say because yes, there's truth

to that statement, you can go periods of time without sex and still feel close in other ways, yes. Yes, agreed. Even as a man, I'm gonna say yes, I agree. In fact, I know some guys who, they were injured in severe accidents and cannot feel anything from their belly button down. So they don't have sex and they still have great connection with their wives. Yes, exactly. And I think that that's her point. That's what she's arguing to. But...

I also believe that inevitably there still is something that's missing. You can make your relationship as great as possible with those quote unquote limitations, but you're still going to be limited. As in another crazy example, say you, I went deaf or something, or you went deaf and you couldn't, I couldn't talk to you because you couldn't hear me. We're going to go a period of time where

we can't communicate in the way we had previously communicated, I guarantee you, I'm going to fill a void. And I think that the same is true for men. Even if we learn sign, I'll be able to see you communicate, but hearing your voice will create a void. Right. And so I think that back to the whole point of you and I being idealists, which is essentially what we are,

Rachel Denning (16:52.67)
and we get it that not everyone can live to the ideal. We fully get that. We know that there are circumstances out there where you cannot live to the ideal, and maybe that's who this person is talking to, and that's great, that's good. But that's rare, that's gonna be less than 1% of people. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what the percentage is, but it is going to be more rare than not, because the reality is, I believe, that for the majority of people, if you follow the practices that,

just work, you will create incredible relationships. And so one of the things we have learned through our own, well, and that we've also taught to other people knowing that it works because they've gotten similar results is that there are certain strategies, certain habits, certain practices you do to create an extraordinary relationship and one of those is having more sex, not less.

But like that's I guess ultimately what it comes down to me for. If you want to have a really great relationship, you actually have more sex, not less. Now that doesn't mean that if there's periods of times when you can't have sex, that now you have no relationship. But again, those arguments are... They're meant to be rare. They're set, yeah. And you set them aside. They're not even a part of the conversation because you're like, okay, I get massively injured in my...

package. Well, yeah, we're not having sex because like I'm injured. Right. My member is and which is what happens which is what happens to a woman after a postpartum. Right. Okay. So she gives birth like there's an injury so to speak and you're like that's just not healthy or comfortable or anything. So of course we're not going to have sex during that time but that's not even a part of this argument like

arguing to the exceptions, arguing to the rare moments of those things, it doesn't help. So we set those aside. Like, you know, you don't need sex to if I go a month without sex, I'm not going to die. Okay, that's just an irrelevant argument. Set that aside. Well, you can't have sex right after postpartum. Yeah, that's an irrelevant art. Set it aside. We're talking about when your health of life. Yeah, yeah, 99% of life.

Rachel Denning (19:14.442)
We're talking about that. Right, and I think that if you take that argument of like, oh, well we can connect in other ways besides sex during those times, so therefore I should take that and apply it to the rest of my life. Well that doesn't work, especially for men. And I guess that's what I'm trying to point out in a way is that yes, during those other times, we connected in other ways after I had babies or whatever without sex.

But that doesn't mean that in your case, and I would say even mine especially, mine might be longer period of time than yours. You might fill a void after a day. 24 hours. A week. Sometimes less. And for me it might be weeks, but there will be a void that is felt. And so to ignore that void and to say to you, you know what husband, it's not a need. And okay, I've literally heard people say this in my.

in my presence, well, you know, your sex drive is just basically something that you need to learn to overcome. You need to learn how to deal with it because it's a myth that you need sex. That's just absurd to me. First of all, it's totally disrespectful to you as a person. You're trying to communicate to me, and this has happened in our marriage, what you're feeling, what you're experiencing. Now, I do know that there was a period of time when I felt...

overwhelmed by that, pressured sometimes, burdened by it, exactly. But that doesn't mean that it just goes away for you because I feel burdened by your need for sex. And it's, Rachel and I were laughing last night because it's often one-sided as though only the woman gets burdened by her husband's needs. Exactly. I was like, uh.

Have I ever felt burdened by your needs? Are you kidding me? Like, Rachel and women have tons of needs that they want and need to be thriving, healthy. Great. That's my responsibility as quote unquote burden or burden as your husband. Again, I okay, let me throw down here. I get so fired up this. I asked Rachel to marry me.

Rachel Denning (21:38.762)
The moment she said yes, there was a contract made. We didn't write it on paper. It wasn't official. We didn't go to the notary. When she said yes, there was a contract made that I would do everything in my power to meet all of her needs, not just food and water and shelter, that I would meet all of her needs to be- Mental, emotional, spiritual? Thriving, fully actualized, to use Maslow's word, a fully actualized woman.

And there's a lot of needs. And so I've got to do that. I've got to meet all those needs. And because I asked her and she said yes, she has every right to demand those of me, that I have to level up, I have to provide in every way possible. And guess what? Yes, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of burden. There are times where I'm doing things for her that, you know, you're like, well, I'd rather be doing something else. I'd rather be sleeping right now because I'm exhausted and you're still talking. Or

whatever else it is, right? But you're like, no, I committed to be your husband. And unfortunately, I think too many women, especially today, feel the sense of entitlement that their husbands should do all of that. And yet they can say to them, oh, your need for sex is just a desire. And I don't have any obligation to fulfill that. Right. And it's easy to do that as a human being.

think, well, my minor needs, because I feel this intensity, minor needs, yours are just desires. And that goes both ways. Babe, you don't need to talk in your example. Rachel, I love to talk. And she feels like she needs to talk to get things out, out loud, and to cry. And I can be like, you don't need to cry, because I don't have that need to cry. So I could assume she doesn't either.

Or I could stop and say, huh. And then it's turned around the other way. Well, I don't have the same need for sex that you do. So it's not a need. It's not a need. How do I know you're not just making this up? Why don't you just control yourself? Why don't you just deal with it? Exactly. And so I think it's become very one-sided, where women want all the benefits of marriage without any of the responsibilities. Now, I know in saying that, people are automatically like, that's so old fashioned. You just think a wife has to perform her duties?

Rachel Denning (24:00.466)
and give sex to her husband because he wants it? No, that is not what I'm saying. And first of all, for sure, I wanna clarify, I am in no way promoting or teaching that it's okay for men to manipulate their wives or to demand sex or any of these other things. This is not a relationship of slavery or whatever. I'm not promoting that at all. Yeah, let's really clarify this.

Our message today is about good men and good women. With high morals, high standards, high values who want to be the best and want to create a message. Or want to create extraordinary marriage. It's not about manipulation, it's not about control. It's not even about a dude who is only interested in sex. He's like, yo, this is my need, I just need sex. And he just does the deed and then walks away. Right.

I'm not talking about that guy that guy needs to be kicked in the in the package. I'm talking about a good man who wants to be a good husband who is more than willing to help meet all of his wife's needs gladly joyfully even no strings attached. Yeah because if I'm like I'm gonna go and do the dishes so that she'll have sex with me.

Like there's a string attached there and it's kind of manipulative. I'm gonna just consistently do the dishes, help out, take care of things that are important to her because I committed to be her husband. But I also want and need her to do the same for me. I'm gonna meet her needs because we're in this, we have a contract, we have an agreement. And ultimately marriage is a sexual contract because that's the big difference. Yes, because this is something we always love to...

remind people of, and it definitely came up again in this conversation I had on Instagram, that marriage is a sexual contract. And sex is a marriage contract. Yeah, that too. It goes both ways. While you can have love and connection in all of these other forms with other people, the one thing you can or should not have with other people is sex. That should be between husband and wife. But if you remove that...

Rachel Denning (26:18.93)
and especially from a man's point of view, we're just roommates. And part of her argument was like, women want more autonomy. I'm like, if you want more autonomy, don't get married. Be a single independent woman and that's fine. And get a bunch of cats. And get some roommates. And if you want a male roommate, fine, but don't involve sex. You don't want sex, don't involve it. Marriage is a sexual contract. You're only getting the male.

isn't pursuing sex in strange ways is some kind of quote neutered guy that isn't in a health has a healthy drive. And I know that plenty of that is out there and whatever but that's not who we're talking to. Right. We are talking to people who want to be married, who want to have great relationships and in order to do that sex is involved. Now I've shared my story before but I want to share a little bit. Again.

I totally get it. I totally understand how this idea, and this is why it resonates, and this is why people like this idea, going back to what you said before, you know? Sometimes we like to hear these ideas because they feel good. I fully remember the time when the idea that sex is not a need for you just felt so liberating. It just felt like, oh, I'm free, because you don't need to have sex. And I remember so strongly, like almost,

praying that I could find a way that we could have less sex. Like that's what I wanted. But because I loved and respected you and I was willing to sincerely understand your point of view, not just what I wanted your point of view to be, I like I searched for the real answers, not the answers I wanted to find, not confirmation bias, but I searched for the real answers. And what I realized was having more sex.

was going to make our relationship better not having less and so I had to change And when I did it changed everything like our we had a good relationship before but it definitely reached this tension point and Understandably, you know, I was pregnant at the time and I was over touched and I you know Just felt like I can't handle any more touch sexual touch

Rachel Denning (28:44.966)
anything else on my to-do list and sex felt like a to-do item. But when I switched my mindset about it, that's when everything changed. And our relationship has only gotten stronger because I started to view sex as an opportunity for connection instead of an inconvenience. And particularly for good men, sex is way, way beyond just the physical act. Exactly. It is actually

more emotional. And the emotional connection that I feel to Rachel and I've heard this from other good men as well, during and right after sex is incomparable. So it and I if people haven't experienced that or they're not having a good experience with sex or maybe their husband hasn't doesn't have that emotional connection he's just he's just in it for the physical.

act, then I can get where that comes from. But for a good man who really loves his wife, the emotional connection that comes with sex is massive. So to hear people say, oh you can connect in other ways, I'm like, well yeah, but nothing compares to the connection through sex. Well right, but for you and many men, that's

the key to your deepest emotional connection and so in it's horrible to Suggest that I should just deny you that Because it's not a need because it's not a need from my perspective right and ultimately I think that's what it is This is the perspective of a woman But they like to go around Teaching it as though it's fact when it's not it's not a fact because so many women

Want to believe it and they do all the comments were like oh Relieved yeah, I get it because I've been there too But if you really want to build that relationship with your husband, you're not gonna stay there It's okay to understand that like yeah, it's a need for you It doesn't mean that I have to be burdened by that But if I willingly take on the responsibility just like you willingly take on responsibility to meet my needs

Rachel Denning (31:09.418)
Then we're working in a partnership where we can achieve great things together. Part of what she was saying is like, it sounds like you're putting all of the responsibility on women. No, I'm not. But I am requiring that you take 150% responsibility. And in a way...

in sex, the responsibility does fall on the woman. And now I don't want to be misunderstood here because I have a high sex drive and I'm pursuing you, but I can't have access to your body without your permission unless I just take it by force, which some horrible people do and that's unacceptable. So actually there is...

And okay, let's just play out. And it generally is the lower desire partner that is the gatekeeper to sexual access. Yes, yes. So then the responsibility in a way, don't misunderstand me, the responsibility in a way does all rest with you. Because I want sex every day, right? But I don't get it every day. And in fact, in our relationship,

It is a healthy, respectful relationship. I only get sex when you graft it. Right. Very word, right? So in a way, yes, all of the responsibility does rest on you. Yeah. And that's okay to shoulder that responsibility. Like there's so much responsibility that fully rests on me. And of course, in weak moments, we wanna shirk it. We wanna say

That's too much of a burden. I don't want all their responsibility. I don't want the ownership I don't want to take on that burden and you're like stop Like for men this why I say to men. I'm like dude. You are the king in your kingdom own that all of it Take on all the responsibility dude. It is yours Everything that happens in your kingdom falls under your responsibility you own that you don't have to do everything you can outsource You can oversee it, but everything that happens in your kingdom is on you and own that responsibility

Rachel Denning (33:22.398)
And so I fully shoulder all the responsibility that falls on me. And in a unique way, maybe a little different way, that responsibility does rest with you because the only other way to get it would be to take it and that's never gonna happen. And I totally get that and I think you're exactly right. I think what happens, at least for me, was a mental switch where before that knowledge was a burden to me.

But I was able to change it through understanding. Exactly. Through, through, I don't know, understanding is a great word. Through understanding your viewpoint and what it meant to you, it, instead of being a burden, became a responsibility that I chose to take on. So I chose to take on that responsibility. Because out of my love for you, even though I may not always desire sex as much as you do.

I'm willing to engage in it because I know what it means to you just like I know that you are willing to say engage in conversation with me or listen to me when I'm worried or stressed or afraid. You're willing to do that whether you want to or not because that's part of the responsibility you've taken on to be my supporter and my spouse, vice versa. So it looks different but in a lot of ways it's the same thing and I think when we deny that as-

aspect for men that oh that's not a need for you we're just we're somehow assuming that they're just like us and so they have the same need it's not true like she says here even wait before you do this can I say something that just occurred to me the etymology of the word responsibility is perfect for everything we just said the response ability the ability to respond yes to my pursuit of you sexually it's your ability to respond when you need to talk

to me or you want to cry or you need help with something or help closing the mental tabs or whatever, right? It's my response ability, my ability to respond to your needs and your ability to respond to my needs that make it work great. That's what makes the relationship work. Without it, you're literally enemies in your own home. Exactly. So, she says,

Rachel Denning (35:44.97)
Sex is one way we can stay connected, but not the only or even the primary way. Again, this is from the perspective of a woman. But it's true. It's true. Kind of obvious. Thank you, Captain Obvious. But also from the perspective of a woman, because I would say it's not your only primary way, but one of your primary ways to connect deeply. Although I would say it is my primary way. It's fair to say it's not the only way we connect, because we talk, we work together.

We've gone trips. We have hobbies. We have interests. We do build dreams together. We Teach our family raise our kids. We do tons of things. We catch sheep together and goats and we connect a lot but my Primary way to connect. Primary in let's say the most intense most significant most Deepest. Most likeable. Yeah, most enjoyable. All these things

And again, we love our life. We have so much fun. We play together, we work together, we adventure together. We have a blast. We have an awesome relationship. But yes, it's the primary way to connect with my wife. Because all of the other things, I can connect with my kids. I can connect with my friends and neighbors and colleagues and whatever. I can connect all the other ways. It's across the board. Those are common denominator. All these other ways you can connect, I can do that with anybody. So with my wife, there's one.

way to connect that I do not do with anybody else. So in some ways, this is a false statement because it is a primary way to connect with your spouse because marriage is a sexual contract. I mean, if you look at the history of marriage, it became a thing because it's essentially granting sexual access. These partners have sexual access to each other. That's what differentiates them from any other relationship. That's the primary difference. So

I would say that this is a false statement. And then she says, it's definitely not gender specific, neither is toxin. So sex is not gender specific, neither is talking. Belonging is a need for both sexes. Yes, it is. But the way that we connect, and here's how I've come to view it, and I truly believe that this is true. And I'm realizing it's still a stereotype, but yet because it fits in the bell curve of

Rachel Denning (38:06.154)
most of humanity, it works. That for women, their primary, and I'm gonna use the word primary, primary way to connect is through talking and communication and conversation, and sharing details and information. That's why I'm always like, oh, what did you say? Oh, and exactly what did he, and how did he say it exactly? I want all the details, that's how I connect with you. And when you give that to me, I feel connected to you.

Your primary way of connecting is through sex. And when I give that to you, you feel connected. And so we create this circle. If you think about a circle that connects, you could even see it like the snakes biting each other's tails, you know, those circles. I give you sex, you give me communication, and the circle goes round and around, and we stay connected in a circle of infinity, only when we're fulfilling both sides. So it's not one or the other.

It's both and they are both important. They're both required in order for our relationship to stay whole and balanced and healthy but I can't we can't just throw one of those out and And not like we're not gonna feel the lopsidedness. Yeah, imagine me speaking to an audience of men who Feel burdened by their wives emotional

swings and her need to just talk and cry and these guys are like oh I know there's some women out there and be like that's not fair I'm not like that because I used to be that woman which and okay but again it's we're going with Jen we're generalizing here obviously we know we're generalizing because in general it's true and so we're doing this group and even

Even these women that were like, I'm not like that. And then a couple of days later, she's crying and talking through it all. You're like, huh? They're not like, what? But anyways, all we can talk about is our experience. And our experience with working with clients. The only person I've ever been married to is Rachel. So we can go with that. So your need to do that, and I know it's common with others when I coach other men. We know that this is true with all the clients. Across all kinds of people.

Rachel Denning (40:25.046)
So if I'm standing on the stage and I'm like, gentlemen, you don't have to listen to your wife. It's a myth that her need to talk, that she doesn't need to talk. It's a need. She doesn't need to talk. She doesn't need to cry. She doesn't need your help cleaning up the house. She doesn't need your help changing diapers. That is a myth. She will not die. And in this room of knuckleheads, I don't know where I was.

gather with these guys and if I did have them I would not be saying this I'd be I'd be calling them out but let's imagine this and they're like oh yes thank you for telling me this because it has been such a burden to listen to her work and I have to listen to her when I get home from work and I have to help around the house like and her emotional changes is her biochemistry changes like oh thank you for telling me I'm

free from this burden. Can you imagine the absurdity of that? It's insane. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (41:31.306)
Okay, I want to read a couple more comments that were shared. Um, I'm not saying sex is not important or that it gives license to ignore and neglect your spouse, as your post said. Okay, agreed. Because that's not loving. Get it. But it shouldn't be used to force, coerce, or obligate women to have sex. I've never said that! Nor I. And we're not preaching that! Nope. We're not talking to men or women who are forcing, cursing, or obligating women to have sex.

That's not what I'm saying, but what I am saying by choice, if you want a better relationship, if you want a stronger relationship, if you want your husband to adore and cherish you and basically kiss the ground you walk on like Greg does for me, and I'm not joking here, Greg will do anything I ask at any time out of complete love and adoration.

One of the ways we've been able to achieve that relationship is because I chose to accept the responsibility of having more sex with you Not less because I knew It was a need for you That's what I'm saying. If you want that level of relationship Great, then accept and embrace this truth if you don't and that you would rather have less sex go ahead believe that sex Being a need is a myth and have less sex

Rachel Denning (42:56.799)
you will get those results. Which almost always end up, and this isn't excusing it, there's no excuse here, almost always ends up in some kind of pornography addiction or masturbation or adultery or just resentment for a long time and a guy who just eventually becomes numb and boring

because he can't stand being next to you all the time and wanting to love you and connect and knowing he's never gonna get sex. Right. And along those lines of argument, well, if sex is not a need, well then why is your fidelity to me a need? Right. Why do I expect you to not masturbate or watch porn or have an affair? There's no reason I should expect that. Because it's not a need for me to have those things, especially if it's not a need for you to have sex. Right.

We gotta realize the full implications of this. And like you're saying, it doesn't excuse it, and yet at the same time, it justifies it along the same lines of reasoning, right? Okay. You're putting a lot of the responsibility on women instead of making it neutral. No, I'm not, but I am trying to explain your role in this because like you said before, I hold the key to sexual access. And in fact, in, okay, I fully...

fully recommend that all women read the book, The Empowered Wife by Lara Doyle. And you will understand, women are the ones that hold the key to happiness in your relationship. Women hold the key. Which is opposite of what is being settled time. Happy wife, happy life. And that kind of stuff that gets spread around. And.

Women hold the key. Yep. That's powerful. Because we are the ones who one hold sexual access control it and we're also the ones who through our sometimes ignorance or just I'll say ignorance because I don't think it's always intentional are doing things that are actually Causing our men to do the things we hate and create miserable relationships

Rachel Denning (45:16.49)
We want them to cherish us, we want them to do what we ask, we want all these things, and yet we behave in ways that produce the opposite. Exactly. Okay, so every woman should read that book. So no, I'm not putting all of the responsibility on women, but what I am doing is giving them the responsibility that they should be bearing. That's it, take your responsibility, instead of blaming your spouse for all of your problems.

If you shouldered more responsibility, you would have a better relationship because it's an equation. You know, me plus my spouse equals our relationship. Well, if I increase my responsibility, if I increase my capability, we automatically have a better relationship because it increases the sum of the total of both, right? So that's what I'm saying. Plus, okay, and it's worth saying here that if a woman's like, look, I...

I get this, I hear what you're saying, I want to have more sex with my husband. I'm so sick of him not helping. Yes. And coming home and acting like a barbarian. I'm sick of his temper. It's just so unattractive and he's not taking care of himself. He's not leveling up. He's not attractive. He's not. Being a baby. I don't respect him. So yeah, I hear you're saying I want to have more sex, but I have a hard time having more sex with him because he's not very respectable or attractive. Or sexy. Then that...

is also the opportunity for more responsibility, like you said, to hold up the mirror to him and say, hey, I need you to level up. And I want to take our marriage to another level. But let's go. Right. Well, and this is the challenge of navigating all of this, because I fully recognize it has many, many levels here that go into play.

I remember this specifically happened with us one time. You had been sick for a while and laying around, I mean, you were sick, right? You were laying around on the couch. You were just disheveled. And I remember you weren't fully better yet, but you kind of were initiating some foreplay or something. And I just told you straight out, like I was honest. And it was uncomfortable and it was a little bit painful.

Rachel Denning (47:37.846)
Besides there were other things going on, we were traveling, there was some uncertainty with where we were gonna be living and all this other stuff. And I told you, I'm like, I just don't feel sexually attracted right now. First of all, you look a mess, you've been laying around like, chat, pale on the couch for days, your breath stinks, and I'm uncertain about our living conditions. I don't have certainty, I feel like you're not providing that thing I need. I don't feel.

attracted to you right now and I just told you like that and I know that can be painful for you to hear and it was painful for me to say but I feel like that's the type of conversations we need to be having not just saying you don't need sex so just get over it blah no we have to get which okay this is this is true she later in these the poster on instagram

says that, like I'm trying to help women get to the reasons they don't want sex. I totally agree with that. That's a great point. Agreed. When my... Why start with some irrelevant argument about life and death? About survival, about not being in need. Yeah. No, and I fully agree with that. And that's a better starting point to me. If your husband comes to you and you don't feel like having sex with him, why don't you figure out why? That's going to be far more helpful than some idea about...

you don't need sex, it's a myth. If you instead believe he needs and wants sex from me but I don't want to give it to him, why don't I want to give it to him? And then if I especially learn the ability to tactfully, I use tact even though it's still uncomfortable, tell you why. Now we can do something with that. Now we have some power and something we can work on changing. That's far more powerful than simply saying

Your need for sex is a myth and I don't have any responsibility to meet it That oh you said that so well, though. The one idea is empowering The other idea is disempowering. Yes, by just saying oh, it's not a need and let's brush it aside. That's disempowering We're saying wait a minute. What's off? What needs to be improved what changes need to be made in myself and in my spouse? That's power. That's real power and obviously there's some pain there

Rachel Denning (49:59.842)
But where there's pain, there's power. That's how things get better. Exactly. I think you're totally right. Okay, couple more things. Oh, and I already said that. Responsibility and women, both partners responsibility. Yes, to communicate needs and desires and figure out fulfilling interests. Yes, and that's what we were just talking through. So true. Saying it is a need is often used to manipulate women into sex. Well- That's messed up. No. Well, it can be. It can be messed up. It can be, and I get-

I get how that can be used that way. But that, again, removing that and saying, no, it's not a need doesn't fix the problem necessarily because for some reason, this is what we're not understanding. If a man's trying to tell you he feels like it's a need, you've got to understand why. You can choose to be manipulated by it, right? Ultimately, I feel like manipulation. But there was, let me, as soon as.

As soon as I heard that I started thinking of instances in our marriage, early on especially when you'd come to me usually in tears or frustration or anger and you're like, I need this. Yeah. And I was like, what? Not need. Yeah, exactly. That's strange because I don't need it. Again I was in this ignorant state of humans are humans. What are you talking about? Right.

I don't need that. I don't need it, you don't need it. You don't need it. And you would say, I need you to do this or I need you not to do this. I need it. And I remember just, you can picture my younger self just standing there stupefied like, what? Why is she saying she needs this? It's so strange. And I wasn't understanding, I wasn't comprehending. I wish if I could go back and start over.

I would listen very carefully from the time we start dating and we're like, I need this. And they're like, oh, okay. Those are her human needs, feminine needs in order to really flourish and be her best self. These are some of the things she needs. Now not every single thing we think is a need. Like some people are going to be like, I need a donut every Saturday morning to be a happy person. I remember one of the responses to, we did a...

Rachel Denning (52:23.534)
podcast episode about parenting or something and it said, your children misbehave because their needs are not being felt and the parent mistook this to believe that meant when their child said, I need to go to my friend's house or I need to play video games, that's what we're talking about. No, we're not talking about those types of things. We're talking about like the sixth human need. And, but back to this idea, in many ways, women can and sometimes do, do the same things. They manipulate their men.

into fulfilling those needs, like I need you to do this thing. And through tears and anger and the wrath, they are manipulating their men to do those things, right? And so it goes both ways. So I get what they're saying here that yeah, this need for sex can be used to manipulate women into giving them sex, but ultimately you, like we talked about before, you're the guardian to the door. Yep. If you don't, and oh.

In all of this I'm saying, if you don't want to have sex, don't have sex. With, here's, because Greg's making faces over there, ah, no, here's how I define that. I'm talking about, when I say want, I'm meaning wanting the outcome that comes from it. Because I may not quote unquote want to have sex, but I think I want to connect with my husband.

and this is how he wants to connect. And I'm willing to do that because of my love for him. But if I, like to be my previous example before, if I'm literally turned off by how you've been for a few days and our situation and all these other factors, I don't want sex right now because I realize that there's this barrier that needs to be overcome. So in those cases, I won't.

have sex and instead I'll have the hard conversation. So that's what I mean by that. And make the changes so it's not chronic. Because it could go on for months or years of like, well I still don't want it. Because of this or because of that. And I think you make a great point because again, the opposite side is you tell a husband like, well if you don't want to listen to your wife or help out around the house, then don't. You don't feel like it, then don't do it. But what you're saying then is, what you really want is to be single and you will be shortly. Exactly, right.

Rachel Denning (54:50.894)
So the wanting comes to what you want most, not just what you want in the moment. Right. And I think it's important to be reminded constantly is like when you decided you wanted to be married, when you decided that you wanted to live with somebody of the opposite sex, you signed up for the differences. And for the sex. And for the sex, 100% you signed up for sex.

And you signed up to meet the needs, the unique needs of your spouse. Not again, not the absurd ones, not the ones that are kind of made up, but I agreed under our automatic contract to meet your feminine needs, even if they aren't ones that I understand or have myself, that's what I signed up for. And so if I want a great marriage, that's

part of the contract. I'm gonna meet your needs. Well, and that's, she says this right here too, that men need, oh, I'm gonna go back to that. Men need to learn other ways to experience intimacy and feel love besides pressuring their wives for sex. Yes, I agree with that. I agree with that. I don't. Okay, explain why you don't. Gosh. Because I think I'll- Only a woman would say that. Well, okay, but what I'm saying is what you just said before that is proving this point.

you are talking about doing nice things because the opposite of that is the guy that comes home and plops on the couch with the remote and just you know gets to do whatever he wants until it's time for sex and then he's more into his phone or his sports team or his car or whatever he's not going to be bothered by the kids or the chores or what his wife wants to tell him about her day or whatever so you are promoting this you are promoting

other ways to experience intimacy and to feel love. Well, yes, because there's lots of levels of intimacy. There's emotional intimacy and spiritual and see and recreational. And intimacy is like this closeness, this real deep connection. So there's a lot of intimacy. But if we're talking about like deep focus, intimacy for a man, if you're like, you say the word intimacy, he's like, oh yeah. Like that is.

Rachel Denning (57:14.358)
Physical deep connection. Yeah, and again, like we mentioned already that's primary for a man And I think you're right because there could be another way to read this because I was at first saying I was thinking Learn other ways to show intimacy and love for his wife, but she's saying Men need to learn other ways to experience intimacy and feel loved besides pressuring their wives for sex She's that right there. She's one wrong man. Yeah, that's wrong. She's wanting men to be more like with it

That's ultimately what that is. That's a woman's perspective saying men need to be more like women. And this is one of the major problems with society today is that men, that women, want men to be more feminine. Men are not women. Okay, I wanna really drive home that point. And I think maybe that's the epitome of this perspective we're trying to counter. Is if, if from a...

woman's perspective she's like look I can feel real intimate connection through other ways that aren't sex and you need to learn how men should learn how to do it too they as though as though they can just learn how to do it like oh you will just don't be a man learn how to connect like a woman like that's crazy and it's extremely unhealthy

Okay. For a marriage, a family and society. And this is, this is part of the problem too, because she continues, I'm egalitarian. So I believe in equality and mutuality between men and women. And a lot of what you're saying is steeped in gender stereotypes and unequal gender roles. Yep. It is exactly. Thank you very much. So she's drinking the Kool-Aid and saying that they're all like, it's like we're a whole bunch of like, say she's,

And again, this is part of society's problem. There's a very big difference between equal and same. She's getting in the sameness here. And so they should be the same. Like we don't need, you know, these men have this sex drive, they should get rid of that and be more like these women. And we just connect in other ways. We sit around talking and have this deep intimacy. It's so, it's so fun. Over a cup of tea. Yep. There's no need for sex. Just deep intimate connection without sex. I'm like, no, that is so off.

Rachel Denning (59:37.514)
So yes, is this view quote old fashioned? Yeah, because it works. It's a great classic, the great classic. It's been around for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years. So it works. And you look everywhere else in life and you're like, the rooster and the hens and all the other animals. Greg and I, Greg and I, there's this market once a month here in Portugal where we go and we buy animals and garden stuff and plants and everything. We went there last Sunday, no, two Sundays ago.

And I was joking with Greg because he wanted to buy a rooster and a hen and he wanted to buy three female ducks and one male duck. And I said, babe, you are so old fashioned because you want men and women in your farm in order to reproduce. Don't you believe in equality? Like, why can't we just have all men or all women? Why do we need male and female? You know?

This is the type of old-fashionedness we're talking about. And you think, Oh, well that doesn't have to apply to our relationships. Now, no, it does because it's the very foundation of our biology. You can't change our biology. I'm sorry. You can't, no matter how much you try, you're not going to turn that rooster into a hen or vice versa. And the same in her argument of I'm egalitarian. I want equality. I'm like, Hey, I'm

I'm totally old fashioned in that a man has a penis and testicles and a woman has a vulva like yeah call it old fashioned. That's what it is. Pretty simple and it works and connected to and again just like oh you're just referring to are you going to define people by their genitalia and I'm like yes and connected to the genitalia is all the very complex

biochemistry. Exactly. It's all involved in this entire conversation. And so that we're not misunderstood, this is in no way saying that you and I are not equal partners. Right. In anything. Like we're equal partners in our business, we're equal partners in our relationship, we're equal partners in our parenting. Like we share everything equally and we work together, we bear the burdens together,

Rachel Denning (01:02:04.246)
We still are different people, and we have different viewpoints and different desires and needs and wants and ways of manifesting and living and being. We're not the same people just because we treat each other equally. And promoting same is not equal. Doesn't help. And equals nothing. And you could take this entire argument and flip it on its head because like we said earlier, you are the gatekeeper to your body. You are the determining factor on how much sex we have.

And so the argument is like, well, men are just pushing and forcing women out. And I'm like, whoa, like a good guy. A good guy is not forcing his wife. He's gonna be persistent and try everything he can to try to get sex because he's driven and like drawn to her. Like I remember years ago, we're up on this ranch and this huge bowl was fenced in by himself out in the field and all the ladies were in the other field.

And he was just miserable bellowing and bellowing and smashing the fence and hitting it and doing everything he can. Finally he swam all the way out into this lake where it got deep enough in the middle where the fence was too low and he was able to swim across and get in. And I'm like he's going to do everything he can to get to the females. Sex is not a need for a bowl, Greg. You're just full of it.

He needs to learn other ways to connect with the cows. Like, what is this? Can't they just talk across the fence? And you know, and I get it. A lot of people are offended by comparing humans to animals. And yet we are animals. Ultimately, we are animals. I believe in evolution. We evolved from animals like.

This is our biology. This is our biochemistry. And to be clear, you also believe in God and that we believe that this is a divine, godly created way to have couples stay together. Exactly, like the circle that we talked about, the circle of connection. It requires both. Okay, a couple other things here that seem are fascinating. Saying it is a need is used to manipulate women into sex. That's what I've seen in the research and in my clinical experience. First of all,

Rachel Denning (01:04:21.194)
You guys know how we feel about this. If you know anything about this, I don't give a rat butt about the research or the clinical experience, unless it produces results. So if in that clinical experience, you have amazing relationships between a man and wife.

I don't care. It doesn't matter. Pragmatism. I'm all about the pragmatism. If it actually works in real life to create incredible relationships, that's what I want. Because it's results driven. I remember meeting a woman one time, she had nine children and they were all a mess. Her family's a mess, her kids were a mess. It was a disaster. And she was going around boasting about how people should listen to her because she has so much experience as a mother. I was like,

Yeah, you do. You have nine children, tons of experience and no results. Right. So, okay. So what that you had nine children, like it was a dumpster fire. Right. So what that you've had thousands of couples in your clinic, unless they are all transformed, like not all, but most of them are getting amazing results from what you're saying. I don't give a crap. Like show me the results. Exactly. Well, and in

back to Lara Doyle's book, The Powered Wife, as she says, she's even harsher than we are sometimes. She says basically marriage counseling is like it's garbage. Divorce preparation. Like it, counseling and marriage leads right to divorce. If you want to save your marriage, do not go to a marriage counselor because they will ruin your relationship because they give you advice based on theory. It's kind of crap. Rather than actual.

Results so our standard is never take advice from anyone unless they have the results you want period So I want to see your relationship That's what I'm gonna base it off of if you have an incredible relationship Then I might believe what you're saying if not, you've got nothing to offer me. Sorry it's like these years ago we were contemplating establishing a recovery Center for youth

Rachel Denning (01:06:38.282)
And I started looking at the stats and the numbers that the recoveries were less than 1%. It was so bad. And they're saying, oh, yeah, we have so much experience. We've helped thousands and thousands of this and that. And they're charging tens of thousands of dollars a month. Oh, so, so expensive. Great business model, but not a great. And then, but I'm like, well, I want the exact numbers. Like who doesn't, you know, how do we get on? The numbers were horrendous. It was so sad that it just wasn't working. So you're like...

You can't boast about all your experience and all the clients you've had. You've gotta boast about the changes, the legitimate changes that have been made and real positive results. Exactly. Okay. Back to the men need to feel other ways to experience intimacy besides pressuring their wives for sex, which kills a woman's libido and sense of autonomy.

Rachel Denning (01:07:32.25)
I can agree that if you feel pressured into sex or you feel the burden of your husband's need for sex, yes, that can absolutely kill your libido and your sense of autonomy. You feel like you're, you know, maybe some slave to your sex drive or something. I get that. But we have to- Yeah, that your body just is not your own. Yeah. My body's just another-

thing for you to use or whatever. Or sex becomes a check mark on my to-do list, like, oh, I need to have sex with my husband again. I totally get that because I have felt that way before. And I felt, well, especially as a young mother when I've got all these children, seven children, and I'm overwhelmed with life, and I've got all this stuff going on, and then I've got you and your sex needs, it's just one more thing, it's just too much. I don't have any autonomy.

I'm not even a person anymore because I'm just meeting everyone else's needs. I get it.

But that changes, going back to what I said before, when I willingly choose to take on those responsibilities and to bear them.

Rachel Denning (01:08:48.418)
purposefully, joyfully, willingly, that's when it changes. It's not by denying that all of you have needs, that sometimes I'm the only one that can fulfill. It's by recognizing that that's actually my privilege and my opportunity to be an important part of your lives, to be necessary, which is the irony, because ultimately that's what we all want. We want to be needed.

We want to be important in someone's life. And yet when the opportunity presents itself to us, we view it as a burden or that we're being manipulated into it or that we have no autonomy. Go live your life by yourself then and have full autonomy and be nobody to anybody. And one of the most obvious certainties among humanity is that women want to be attractive. They want to be desired. They want to be.

spend trillions of dollars and do anything they can, clothes, makeup, hair, surgeries, anything to be attractive. Yeah, this is actually one of the ironies because what women do want, and again with our generalizations, which are true, is that they want to be cherished, they want to be desired, they want to be pursued. What that looks like in reality is a man pursuing them for the ultimate end of sex. Sorry, that's just how it works.

That's the biology of it. There's lots of levels in between, and that's not the only outcome, but that is the underlying driving force, is that. And when we learn to realize that truth and accept it and embrace it and work with it rather than fighting against it, guess what? Everything changes, and now life is actually.

free and flowing and enjoyable and pleasurable. And now you're having great, incredible, amazing sex. And you feel good and life gets better and better and better because you're flowing with it rather than fighting it. You embrace it instead of resisting. I will say this though. I got to throw down here on the gentlemen. Many men, if not most, are subconsciously or unconsciously

Rachel Denning (01:11:10.526)
operating as self-sabotage and they are killing their wife's libido. Yes. By their, the way they carry themselves, the way they behave, the way they perform. Do their hair, wear their clothes. Like, even physical things like that, how their appearance, but also their mannerisms, their language, their tempers, their, the way they engage with kids and neighbors and others, their habits and hygiene, the way they succeed at work or just utterly fail, their laziness. Like, you name it.

Men are just operating in total self-sabotage and then wondering why do we have more sex? Like, well look at yourself, dude. So there's a gigantic responsibility on the men to be attractive and respectable and likable. And to do that, I heard this funny thing. I think I just

Rachel Denning (01:12:10.646)
John Gray something he was like these guys yeah and they were boasting about I will never change a diaper that's a woman's job and he says two years later they would all be in my office wondering why they don't have sex anymore and he's like duh right she doesn't respect or like you appreciate you it's not sexy like when you're really leaning into being a man in that full sense of what it means to be a man Shouldering responsibility Yeah

That's sexy. It's attractive, it's respectable. And so guess what? Her libido goes up. Because you're doing things that are attractive. You're serving people, you're helping people, you're doing hard work and taking on challenges. That's sexy to a woman. Absolutely it is, right. When you, yeah, when you are working and making things nicer for us, or even if you're dressing up, taking me out to dinner, paying for dinner.

All of that is very attractive. And so all of that goes into increasing libido. So yeah, if your spouse is sitting around doing nothing and then expecting sex, yeah, that's not gonna happen. Sitting in the corner and grumbling like a little baby. Why would I have sex with these? Look at yourself.

Okay, we're almost done. Next-gen belonging are needs, but sex is not because you can live or survive without it, whereas attachment is necessary for survival. Okay, like we talked about before, yes. But the experiments of babies dying when they don't have attachment, yeah, you're right. That's more of a live or die need. Point being, that's not the conversation we're having, and that's the ultimate problem. We're not talking about just living or dying.

We are talking about, well, we're talking about the relationship, living or dying. If you want the relationship to live, a marriage relationship needs sex, period. And as you say that, I would say in our relationship, you or me inside of a marriage, attachment is through sex. Not only. Right.

Rachel Denning (01:14:23.318)
But it is through sex for sure. And that of course... Like she's saying attachment is needed like from a man's perspective, as from a husband's perspective. And this has to preclude the rare circumstances of yeah, where sex is not an opportunity in a relationship. If something happened to you and you lost the bottom half of your body and we couldn't have sex, yeah, we would still be married, we'd still have a great relationship. But that's the exception, not the rule. The rule is most people in a marriage are able...

to have sex. So if you're able to have sex, you should be having sex. That's the point. And so we can't be extreme-ing to this, arguing to this extreme of, well, it can exist in relationships where there's no sex. That's not the point. We're talking about average relationships that can become extraordinary by having more sex rather than less sex. I love that word that just slipped out, extreme-ing. Extreme-ing? We're gonna start using that. Like, hey, you're extreme-ing.

You're using arguments. They're so far out there. They're kind of irrelevant to the conversation. Both men and women need to take responsibility. We already addressed that. Attending to the pardon, you seem to put all the burden on women. No, she's like, this is the second time she's bringing it up. And so I think- Why is she so afraid? Hold on. I know we touched on it, but why is she so concerned about women having the responsibility?

Can you imagine, is she assuming that the men should bear all the responsibility? Because that's also a faulty conclusion. The burden should not, no here's the truth, the burden is on both. Both bear the burden. Like I feel like I need to take 100% responsibility and you need to take 100% responsibility. Sometimes it's more than that, it's like 150, it's 200%. There's no such thing as that. But it's definitely not.

50-50. No, definitely not. It's I take 100 and you take 100 and it just works. It almost seems like she's just trying to pass on responsibility. Or put blame somewhere else. Yeah, well, where's she going to push it? She's pushing onto men. I think maybe inadvertently she's like, well, it's on men and they may stop saying it's a need, it's not a need, that the responsibility shouldn't land on the woman. Why are we afraid of responsibility?

Rachel Denning (01:16:43.818)
Well, she is saying both men and women need to take responsibility for improving the relationship. There you go. Good. True, but you seem to be putting all the burden on women and not making it equal. I guess I'm confused about why she thinks that that's the point we're trying to make. Especially if you just say, oh no, sex is a need. And all of a sudden, boom. Maybe that's it. By saying sex is a need, we're now putting all the burden on women. As though, we've already made the opposite argument. As though...

woman's need whatever a woman's need is like every woman's different maybe it's talking maybe it's cuddling me whatever it is What's your need? You're somehow saying that?

Rachel Denning (01:17:25.642)
What? That's not a need because his sex drive is not a need or yours is a need and he needs to have the same need. It's almost like it's that. I have the need to connect this way. He needs to learn how to connect primarily that way. And isn't that putting all the responsibility. But again, I'm not good. I'm not afraid of responsibility. If you if you need me to listen to you or need me to talk to you or need for me to help you out, then that's putting quote all the responsibility on me to help you.

Great, I'm not afraid of responsibility, I don't short that at all. We've actually talked about this a lot because we have a very unique lifestyle, we have a very unique relationship. As a result, I mean, for the past 18 years, we've traveled to 53 countries, and so in some ways we've lived a very, which seems ironic, like we've been all over the world, we've lived a very global cosmopolitan lifestyle. It's also been, in a way, a very,

sheltered is not the right word. It's kind of, what's the word? I can't think of it. I don't know. Protected, encompassed. Isolated in a way. And the reason for the isolation is that our family unit and your and my relationship are the primary relationships in our life above everything else. Because when we go from place to place to place, it's you and me and our kids.

besides the new people that we meet, but it's a temporary thing. So because of that, we are best friends, but I primarily have you as the person I talk to. So I know that that's unique for many women because a lot of women have their friends, their neighbors, their mothers, their sisters that live nearby, they talk to them all the time. I don't generally have them, right? And so I know that times, and I...

sure you felt it, that my need to rely on you for talking, for communicating, like I don't have another outlet for that, if that makes sense. And so it becomes a higher burden on you that you could very easily say to me, well, it's not a need or it's not this or you're requiring too much or there's too much of a burden. And yet that is just what it is. But it also leads to greater intimacy. Well, that's the other thing too. That is...

Rachel Denning (01:19:54.798)
partly also the quote unquote secret to our great relationship is that we are each other's only outlets. Me for communicating and talking and sharing and connecting and you for sex, like that's it. We've got each other. And that has strengthened our relationship and made it even more powerful rather than weakening it. So it's kind of fascinating and interesting that, you know, in this effort to

remove the burden of meeting another person's needs in a way you're ultimately weakening the relationship. You know, if you were to say to me, I can't talk to you, why don't you call your mom, or why don't you call your sisters, or why don't you go talk to the neighbor or someone else, get some friends, that would ultimately weaken our relationship because we spend less time in communication. Does that make sense? Yeah, and especially,

intense or emotional communication. Right. Gosh, and then some people might say, you know, just go masturbate or go look at like go away, go look at porn. And so all that emotional, sexual energy and drive is wasted somewhere else. No, you're right. Because if you think about it, if you think about all of that in terms of energy on like a metaphysical level,

all of the energy that I feel that needs an outlet, that many women, you know, the source of their outlet is women friends or whatever, like I mentioned, if all of that is instead directed towards you and the same thing, all of your sexual energy is not just dispersed in, you know, some men work a lot more, or they get projects or sports or porn or masturbation.

and instead is directed towards me, we increase the amount of energy in the relationship, which gives it the fuel, the rocket fuel, to propel it into an extraordinary status. And I think that's exactly what's happened in our case. Absolutely. So it's an increase of those things, an increase of all levels of intimacy that has given us the power we have, rather than dispersing it in other areas by believing things like. Wow.

Rachel Denning (01:22:19.21)
you know, that sex is not a need or that I don't have to talk to you or whatever. Like it just disperses that energy. All that energy. If you reject me or divert it, like it just in order to just to do something with the energy, yeah, men are going to look somewhere else, sports or work or TV or whatever. I mean, but if, if we accept and embrace all that energy.

quote unquote burden. And the responsibility, then yeah, it's better. It builds the relationship rather than weakening it.

Okay, sounds like you're saying marriages in which they aren't having sex, whether postpartum, health issues, surgery, older age, can't be great, since you think sex is essential for that. In a way, yeah, that is what we're saying.

Understand level understanding the exceptions again. She's arguing she's extreming here to use your word We're not we're not talking about somebody who's had a surgery or is ill or has a disability That's we're not talking about and we're not talking about great marriages either. We're talking about creating something extraordinary but just like we talked said All of the energy is being put into making the relationship extraordinary and the more energy you put in which in some ways the more Talking the more sex

you put into the relationship, the greater, the more extraordinary the relationship is going to be. Yeah, and I think what she's saying here is weak because what she does is like, she's talking to you saying, well, what you're doing, Rachel, is saying these marriages that have these exceptions can't be great. It's like, no, we're not talking about the exceptions. We understand the exception. We understand there's those time periods. And someone needs to talk about the exceptions and someone needs to address the exceptions. That's great. Great.

Rachel Denning (01:24:07.862)
But to take the exception and make it the rule, exactly. That's the problem. That's the problem right there. Hey, well, these people with an exception can make it work. So everyone else should too. That's the problem. Exactly. Okay. It's basically done here, but let's see.

I'm more interested in helping women or couples uncover the reasons why they don't want to have sex. I agree with that. I think that's very powerful, but I ultimately feel that telling women, let me finish, why they don't want to have sex or have a discrepant desire from their partner, then burdening women solely with that responsibility and shaming them into obligation sex by saying their marriage can't be great unless they give their husband their need. Well, first of all, that's not what we're saying at all.

But if you really want to help couples uncover the reasons why the woman doesn't want to have sex, or whoever in the relationship doesn't want to have sex, that's better going to happen when you have understanding about why the other partner feels that sex is a need for them. Right. She'd be better off saying, hey, you know, at a certain level, it is a need for them.

let's work through and see how we can do that. That would be way more effective than saying, oh, it's not a need and kind of pushing it aside and getting rid of it. Like you're less likely to get to the root of the problem because you're giving them an out. Right, you're giving, exactly, you're giving them an out. And I don't think giving people an out helps them do the hard work to get to the problem. Take on the responsibility. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so. And kudos to this woman and her work. Like that is the.

to like let's get down to the bottom like what are the issues and let's solve them. That's fantastic. Yeah. Totally agree. That's awesome and what a great work. Such an important work. But discounting it and passing it off and brushing it aside and giving them an out that doesn't it's not powerful enough to get to the core issues that are hard to get to and do. Right and I think it's simplifying the issue in such a way that it's not

Rachel Denning (01:26:22.622)
It can't be a permanent solution because the real solution is far more complex than that. It involves the fact that yes, on a level, the survival of the relationship does need sex, except for the exceptions, but we're not living with the exceptions. We're not the exception. We are normal people, that's who we're talking to, with normal relationships. And if you want it to be even better, you have to embrace this aspect of it.

Beautiful. Okay. Good. You guys, this was a long haul again. It's so important. It's, it is at the core of a marriage. And it's worth these reminders. It's worth deeper understanding and study and work. We wholeheartedly believe this is a core piece of a successful marriage, a sex successful marriage. And

It's worth the reminders, it's worth repeating, it's worth the study, the thought, the research, the experimentation, all of it. Lean into this, you guys, make it a priority. Well, it reminds me of, we actually did a coaching session or presentation about it with that title, that sex is the linchpin. And the ultimate premise that we gave, which I think we also talked about in all of this podcast, is that at the center of your relationship is sex. It is the linchpin that holds your relationship together.

And I know what we already talked about, that we feel, oh, well, you can connect in other ways. Yeah, but in a truly strong marriage relationship, which is a sexual contract, that sex is at the center. And when the sex gets better, everything else, all of the spokes off of that central linchpin in the wheel of your life, they get better because the sex gets better. Trust me, it happens. Love it. Hey, you guys, if you found this helpful, share it.

Take a screenshot share with friends or family These come up questions comments. You can email them to us support at extraordinary family life comm you can also leave us voice messages On our podcast page. Well, and we can respond the big piece here is now how to implement all the other strategies To make the sex work and that's what you and I do so you guys can follow us on social media

Rachel Denning (01:28:51.526)
Download the Be The Man app. You can join our coaching groups. We have other podcast episodes about sex, at least four others, that are very helpful. That's what we're doing. We live for this, to give resources and tools of how to actually implement all this stuff. And it's amazing, like all these different pieces that have to fit together in order to make great sex work consistently. There's a lot there. So we're happy to help. We love it. Thanks you guys for listening.

Love you, reach out for it.